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Old 14th June 2018, 01:13 PM   #3241
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I don't think so, I think it's independent....

http://theoldwellinn.co.uk/

It's really strange starting to become semi-regular (we've been in about half a dozen times in the last three months) in a pub where you spent the majority of your youth. It's been completely revamped and redecorated but food and beer is as good as it was 30+ years ago.

We're now timing our visits to my dad to make sure we can make Thursday night open-mics...
I like the Horseshoes when I am in BC.

My current fave place is the Royal George in Staithes.
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Old 14th June 2018, 03:25 PM   #3242
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I like the Horseshoes when I am in BC.
It's the second closest to the house - the parmo was very good, but getting a table at the weekend is tough.

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
My current fave place is the Royal George in Staithes.
Might take a look in next time we're up
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Old 14th June 2018, 03:48 PM   #3243
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Looks like the Tory "rebels" (if that's not an oxymoron) are having buyers' remorse.

Seems like what they were promised verbally is not what they got - I refer you to Sam Goldwyn's sage advice regarding verbal contracts....

Quote:
The government's compromise to avoid a Commons defeat on Brexit has been rejected as "unacceptable" by leading rebel Dominic Grieve.

Theresa May had convinced most rebels - who want MPs to have the final say - to back her in a key vote on Tuesday night by giving them assurances.

But the wording of the promised compromise has now been published.

Mr Grieve, who had talks on Thursday with ministers, said he could not understand why the change was made.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44482652

..because Mr Grieve, Theresa May has always been a Brexiteer. Her support of the Remain campaign was tactical. You've been stitched up like a kipper - if you need sympathy and support, Nick Clegg feels your pain
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Old 14th June 2018, 04:23 PM   #3244
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Really?
Sorry, my mistake, I meant leave voters, of course.
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Old 15th June 2018, 05:40 AM   #3245
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Sorry, my mistake, I meant leave voters, of course.
And yet the closest we can get to returning to the conditions of Common Market days is still rejected by hard-line Leave supporters, and they're the ones pulling the government's strings.
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Old 15th June 2018, 07:00 AM   #3246
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
And yet the closest we can get to returning to the conditions of Common Market days is still rejected by hard-line Leave supporters, and they're the ones pulling the government's strings.
I don't think that's right. The common market had rules for the free movement of qualified skilled workers, but free movement for all EU citizens wasn't introduced until the Maastricht Treaty in 1992.

One of the main reasons that a large number of voters cast their vote for leave was to stop free movement of EU citizens into the UK. Cameron had tentatively tried to restrict this free movement somewhat, as part of his 'renegotiation' - but there was no significant change offered by the EU: if a little more had been offered it would have most likely swung the vote in favour of remain - but now we shall never know.

The 'closest we can get' deal you refer to won't end free movement, so is unacceptable to many leave voters still.

Last edited by ceptimus; 15th June 2018 at 07:02 AM.
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Old 15th June 2018, 07:11 AM   #3247
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82 pages and you finally admit to xenophobia.

Well done.

You do realise that most 'darkies' are not from the EU?
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Old 15th June 2018, 07:33 AM   #3248
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I don't think that's right. The common market had rules for the free movement of qualified skilled workers, but free movement for all EU citizens wasn't introduced until the Maastricht Treaty in 1992.

One of the main reasons that a large number of voters cast their vote for leave was to stop free movement of EU citizens into the UK. Cameron had tentatively tried to restrict this free movement somewhat, as part of his 'renegotiation' - but there was no significant change offered by the EU: if a little more had been offered it would have most likely swung the vote in favour of remain - but now we shall never know.

The 'closest we can get' deal you refer to won't end free movement, so is unacceptable to many leave voters still.
A big problem with the "qualified, skilled workers" requirement is that maintains a disequilibrium of the same. It can even exacerbate it since the narrow few examples any lower-tier countries have go away, not to return.

Free movement has seen workers on seasonal migratory patterns that act as knowledge conduits, skills are transmitted to both the travellers themselves and then onto those who stayed put, as well.
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Old 15th June 2018, 08:24 AM   #3249
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
82 pages and you finally admit to xenophobia.

Well done.

You do realise that most 'darkies' are not from the EU?
You're ascribing an 'admittance' to me that I never gave. Please retract.

It's much better if you stick to the argument rather than trying to attack other posters. That's why the forum rules encourage / enforce it.

Last edited by ceptimus; 15th June 2018 at 08:28 AM.
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Old 15th June 2018, 08:57 AM   #3250
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I don't think that's right. The common market had rules for the free movement of qualified skilled workers, but free movement for all EU citizens wasn't introduced until the Maastricht Treaty in 1992.

One of the main reasons that a large number of voters cast their vote for leave was to stop free movement of EU citizens into the UK. Cameron had tentatively tried to restrict this free movement somewhat, as part of his 'renegotiation' - but there was no significant change offered by the EU: if a little more had been offered it would have most likely swung the vote in favour of remain - but now we shall never know.

The 'closest we can get' deal you refer to won't end free movement, so is unacceptable to many leave voters still.
No, because contrary to what many Leave supporters think, it is not possible to have our cake, eat it, and save a bit for later.

Also, it seems that free movement was not the lynchpin for Leave voters as you claim. A YouGov poll after the referendum found that 69% of all respondents - and 60% of those who were Leave voters - agreed with the following statement:

"In negotiating Britain’s departure from the European Union, do you think our government should offer EU citizens the right to travel, work, study or retire in Britain, in exchange for EU countries giving British citizens the same rights?"

This would suggest, at the very least, that if people voted becauyse of "free movement," a lot of them didn't understand what is actually meant by that term.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 15th June 2018 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 15th June 2018, 09:50 AM   #3251
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It's the unskilled fruit and veg pickers that we need. The seasonal workers who come over, do the work and then go home again.
No one else wants to do it.
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Old 15th June 2018, 09:58 AM   #3252
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Seems like what they were promised verbally is not what they got
and

There seems to be a lot of that going around.

Like £350 million
A better deal than being in
If it's 52/48 it's 'unfinished business'
The easiest negotiation in history
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Old 15th June 2018, 11:27 AM   #3253
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It's the unskilled fruit and veg pickers that we need. The seasonal workers who come over, do the work and then go home again.
No one else wants to do it.

Anyone who thinks that picking fruits and vegetables is "unskilled" has never done it.

If they were to try they'd be in for a very rude awakening.
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Old 15th June 2018, 11:33 AM   #3254
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Also, it seems that free movement was not the lynchpin for Leave voters as you claim. A YouGov poll after the referendum found that 69% of all respondents - and 60% of those who were Leave voters - agreed with the following statement:

"In negotiating Britain’s departure from the European Union, do you think our government should offer EU citizens the right to travel, work, study or retire in Britain, in exchange for EU countries giving British citizens the same rights?"

This would suggest, at the very least, that if people voted becauyse of "free movement," a lot of them didn't understand what is actually meant by that term.
Small nitpick - the wording of that question could be interpreted as the British government setting the applicable rules, and the EU reciprocating, rather than the other way round in EU "four freedoms".
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Old 15th June 2018, 11:49 PM   #3255
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Anyone who thinks that picking fruits and vegetables is "unskilled" has never done it.

If they were to try they'd be in for a very rude awakening.
Unskilled : Uses skills I don't personally possess or appreciate

It's one of those irregular terms like "hard work".
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Old 16th June 2018, 12:58 AM   #3256
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I'm starting to like Brexit. 7000 people joined the SNP this week after the Tories and Labour conspired to tear up the devolution settlement and the SNP walked out of the Commons.

The English nationalist Leavers may get their dream after all.
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Old 16th June 2018, 02:13 AM   #3257
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Unskilled : Uses skills I don't personally possess or appreciate

It's one of those irregular terms like "hard work".
Unfortunately, like it or not and whether it's factually true, AFAIK fruit pickers are classed as unskilled labour by the UK for immigration purposes.
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Old 16th June 2018, 03:29 AM   #3258
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Fruit picking is a skill you can pick up in a week or so providing you are fit and keen. So not really a skill in the usual sense of the word, but it is undoubtedly very hard work.
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Old 16th June 2018, 03:33 AM   #3259
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And Britain's Brexit masterplan is revealed.

Quote:
The more cynical observers suspect that Theresa May is ultimately using the domestic turmoil as cover to delay and prevaricate on the backstop until the last minute, hoping that Ireland will come under pressure in October from other member states.

Irish sources say they have been informed via European capitals that British officials have been briefing against Ireland, hoping to diminish support for Ireland’s case.

"It was felt for some time that if they could just get through June," says an Irish source, "and then use the time pressure of October, which would, in their view, result in pressure coming on Ireland from other member states.

"We’re not naive about it, but I do think they’re misreading that."
https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/...nnelly-brexit/

In the unlikely event that their divide and conquer tactics work, the Irish government will have to be prepared to use their veto.
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Old 16th June 2018, 07:53 AM   #3260
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A slightly different view on Ireland's position:

Quote:
So when Theresa May last week proposed that special arrangements to keep Northern Ireland under customs union and single market rules could be extended to the rest of the UK – avoiding any barriers to Irish-British trade as well as between the Republic and the North – Dublin liked what it heard.

Michel Barnier, however, did not. After a cautious welcome from Dublin, Mr Barnier made it clear that the plan would not fly with Brussels: it was cherrypicking, the EU’s term for taking benefits of the single market without its rules and obligations.

So where is the need for substantial progress now? Barnier’s firm rejection of the British proposals took Dublin aback, Ministers and senior officials admit privately.
Quote:
As this dynamic develops in the coming weeks, the Irish position – and the question of where Irish interests lie – will become less straightforward. How far can May be pushed? Should Ireland tone down its requirements for progress on the Border to keep the show on the road, or is it better – as one senior official suggests – to have a crisis sooner rather than later, in the hope that it would resolve the question of the Border? These judgments will be made in Brussels. But they will be made in Dublin, too.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...orce-1.3532209
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Old 16th June 2018, 08:21 AM   #3261
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I'm not seeing any meaningful difference there in the Irish government's position. The Irish Times and RTE have editorialised it differently is all, and frankly out of those two I would trust RTE's version more.
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Old 16th June 2018, 09:29 AM   #3262
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
I'm not seeing any meaningful difference there in the Irish government's position. The Irish Times and RTE have editorialised it differently is all, and frankly out of those two I would trust RTE's version more.
There are significant differences in the reporting of the Irish Government reaction to the British proposal for a UK wide backstop, but that may simply reflect differences in where the reporters are based and who has been talking to them.
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Old 16th June 2018, 12:07 PM   #3263
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Unfortunately, like it or not and whether it's factually true, AFAIK fruit pickers are classed as unskilled labour by the UK for immigration purposes.

"Unskilled" tends to mean, 'They haven't gone to a school and gotten some sort of diploma for it.'

It's an effective way to keep up class barriers.
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Old 16th June 2018, 12:10 PM   #3264
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Fruit picking is a skill you can pick up in a week or so providing you are fit and keen. So not really a skill in the usual sense of the word, but it is undoubtedly very hard work.

Nonsense.

A week might be time enough to learn how not to be a danger to yourself and others.

Learning enough and becoming skilled enough to not ruin more product than you successfully harvest takes much longer. Becoming skilled enough to make any sort of decent wage is another step still.
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Old 16th June 2018, 01:13 PM   #3265
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Come to East Anglia, you can get a job harvesting fruit and veg for minimum wage at the drop of a hat.
No one wants to do it though, wages are low, conditions are hard and it is seasonal.

A week is long enough to learn how to do it, you will be expected to be working the same day as you are hired.
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Old 17th June 2018, 06:40 AM   #3266
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
A slightly different view on Ireland's position:





https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...orce-1.3532209
The consensus here is precipitate a crisis sooner rather than later.
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Old 17th June 2018, 06:52 AM   #3267
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
"Unskilled" tends to mean, 'They haven't gone to a school and gotten some sort of diploma for it.'

It's an effective way to keep up class barriers.
Except that in the past fruit-picking and the like was a popular summer job for university students.
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Old 17th June 2018, 08:30 AM   #3268
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Except that in the past fruit-picking and the like was a popular summer job for university students.

Not sure how that's relevant.

Unless you are suggesting that the the U.K can solve her "unskilled" labor shortage issues with uni students looking for pocket money.
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Old 17th June 2018, 11:15 AM   #3269
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Not sure how that's relevant.

Unless you are suggesting that the the U.K can solve her "unskilled" labor shortage issues with uni students looking for pocket money.
Well, obviously you'd hand-wave away someone pointing out that your "It's an effective way to keep up class barriers" claim was not always true...
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Old 17th June 2018, 01:03 PM   #3270
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Well, obviously you'd hand-wave away someone pointing out that your "It's an effective way to keep up class barriers" claim was not always true...

I expect that some students also worked as sales clerks, waiters and waitresses, house painters, janitors, etc. in their summer off time too.

None of that proves the point you claim to be making either.
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Old Yesterday, 12:50 AM   #3271
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I'm sure it's been posted before, but the Galileo constellation is in the news again with 27 member states voting to block Britain's access to the project and the next round of contracts are to exclude British firms from participation.

EU playing hard ball.

https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...e-after-brexit
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Old Yesterday, 01:44 AM   #3272
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Originally Posted by Octavo View Post
I'm sure it's been posted before, but the Galileo constellation is in the news again with 27 member states voting to block Britain's access to the project and the next round of contracts are to exclude British firms from participation.

EU playing hard ball.

https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...e-after-brexit
Well.

The Uk wanted out of the EU.
So a result like this could have been foreseen.
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Old Yesterday, 02:53 AM   #3273
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I expect that some students also worked as sales clerks, waiters and waitresses, house painters, janitors, etc. in their summer off time too.
Those are jobs which exist year-round, so students would be displacing full-time workers if they did them over the summer. The advantage of harvest work was that it was obviously seasonal. That said, even before the switch to reliance on EU workers, a large amount was still being done by temporary foreign nationals, via the Season Agricultural Workers Scheme, a fact which seems to have eluded the Brexit debate.

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Old Yesterday, 03:57 AM   #3274
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Originally Posted by Octavo View Post
I'm sure it's been posted before, but the Galileo constellation is in the news again with 27 member states voting to block Britain's access to the project and the next round of contracts are to exclude British firms from participation.

EU playing hard ball.

https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...e-after-brexit
Wow it is almost as if you will be out of the EU before the project will launch, like there is some kind of deadline where by if you don't have some kind of agreement you are out.
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