ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags !MOD BOX WARNING!

Reply
Old 14th June 2018, 12:08 PM   #2201
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 21,617
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
But that's what the dispute is all about.

<snip>

It may be what the dispute is about where you are.

I was responding to isissxn, who is an American living in the U.S.

Quote:


There are moves afoot in both England and Scotland to introduce "self-identification" which means just that. Apparently it's too onerous and intrusive to have to talk to any medical practitioner and trans people insist that they simply be taken at their word, and the politicians are going along with it. Women who are concerned about this are being told they simply have to suck it up.

There are "moves afoot" to do a lot of things in a lot of places.

Whether or not they actually amount to anything is a different question.

Not sure who "the politicians" are. From my understanding of U.K. politics, it would be a bit broad-brushed to talk about "the politicians" as if they were a unified front about much of anything. Gender dysphoria and the legal positions which should be decided in relation to that don't seem like they would be among those questions where a great deal of unanimity would exist.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2018, 10:30 AM   #2202
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,732
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Let's hope other gender critical folks don't flounce at the prospect of being called cisgender. The utter horror.
WTH is "gender critical"?

Is this blog correct?

http://transadvocate.com/gender-crit...on_n_14766.htm

Quote:
Gender Critical Feminism (GCF) is a euphemism for Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF). There is no ideological difference between the TERF and “Gender Critical Feminist”
I feel like I'm being sucked into a very silly game I'm not really curious about playing, I think.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2018, 10:47 AM   #2203
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 3,402
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
WTH is "gender critical"?
https://www.reddit.com/r/gendercritical/about
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2018, 10:49 AM   #2204
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,732
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I get a "Not Found" message. Is reddit the final arbiter on the meanings of such phrases? (Honest question, seriously)
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2018, 10:54 AM   #2205
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,732
I found this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/

Under community details they say a lot of stuff I agree with, but then:

Quote:
Adult human females are women.
While I agree that the above is "a" reasonable definition, something about the way it's phrased as definitive and final makes me think there is some "anti-trans dog whistling" (for lack of a better phrase) going on there.

So, I'm a feminist who's critical of gender to some extent, but I don't think that group would be a good representation of my own beliefs.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell

Last edited by kellyb; 15th June 2018 at 10:55 AM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2018, 10:58 AM   #2206
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 3,402
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I get a "Not Found" message. Is reddit the final arbiter on the meanings of such phrases? (Honest question, seriously)
There are probably many other examples of online communities who self-identify as gender critical.

Dunno why the link isn't working on your end. Here is the relevant bit:
Quote:
Gender Critical is a radical feminist subreddit to discuss gender from a critical perspective. We are a woman-centered community. We do not believe 'woman' is a feeling. We do not condone the erasure of females and female-only spaces, the silencing of critical thinking, the denial of biological reality and of sex-based oppression. We oppose the 'cotton ceiling' and the pressure on lesbians to have sex with men. Adult human females are women.

"Women do not decide at some point in adulthood that they would like other people to understand them to be women, because being a woman is not an ‘identity.’ Women’s experience does not resemble that of men who adopt the ‘gender identity’ of being female or being women in any respect. The idea of ‘gender identity’ disappears biology and all the experiences that those with female biology have of being reared in a caste system based on sex." - Sheila Jeffreys, Gender Hurts
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/

Last edited by d4m10n; 15th June 2018 at 10:59 AM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2018, 11:14 AM   #2207
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,732
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
There are probably many other examples of online communities who self-identify as gender critical.

Dunno why the link isn't working on your end. Here is the relevant bit:
I actually agree with a lot of what they're saying, but their hardline, non-nuanced stance on the definition of the word "woman" gives me the icks.

It feels like "dog whistle politics" for anti-trans bigots.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2018, 11:15 AM   #2208
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,732
I'm just going to make up my own phrase and call myself "gender skeptical". lol

Nobody's used the phrase "gender skeptical feminism" yet, according to a quick google search. Maybe I should lock it down by starting a blog or something. Heh.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell

Last edited by kellyb; 15th June 2018 at 11:18 AM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2018, 04:34 PM   #2209
Delphic Oracle
Master Poster
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 2,414
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I found this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/

Under community details they say a lot of stuff I agree with, but then:



While I agree that the above is "a" reasonable definition, something about the way it's phrased as definitive and final makes me think there is some "anti-trans dog whistling" (for lack of a better phrase) going on there.

So, I'm a feminist who's critical of gender to some extent, but I don't think that group would be a good representation of my own beliefs.
That statement at face value is not exlusionary. An "only" would need to predicate the rest of it.

That is not to say it isn't meant to be exclusionary, just that the concept of "sets" and proper use of language may not be strong suits of those who hold that view :9.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2018, 05:52 PM   #2210
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,732
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
That statement at face value is not exlusionary. An "only" would need to predicate the rest of it.

That is not to say it isn't meant to be exclusionary, just that the concept of "sets" and proper use of language may not be strong suits of those who hold that view :9.
Yeah, but my strong sense/suspicion is that they're doing it on purpose to be kinda shady about their anti-trans "agenda". I'd find them less gross if they just overtly said "We don't think transwomen are women at all" or "Transwomen are men".
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2018, 12:39 AM   #2211
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,588
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Yeah, but my strong sense/suspicion is that they're doing it on purpose to be kinda shady about their anti-trans "agenda". I'd find them less gross if they just overtly said "We don't think transwomen are women at all" or "Transwomen are men".
There have been quite a few people on here say trans women aren't women.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2018, 08:03 PM   #2212
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,732
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
There have been quite a few people on here say trans women aren't women.
Right, but they're not cloaking that position as some flavor of radical, gender critical feminism.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2018, 04:20 AM   #2213
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,757
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Yeah, but my strong sense/suspicion is that they're doing it on purpose to be kinda shady about their anti-trans "agenda". I'd find them less gross if they just overtly said "We don't think transwomen are women at all" or "Transwomen are men".
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Right, but they're not cloaking that position as some flavor of radical, gender critical feminism.
That's inane.

"This is a class-critical trade union for workers. Workers are those who sell their labour power for a wage."

"You're just hiding your anti-transworker agenda, how dare you define workers without explicitly referring to a few capitalists who identify as workers?! Don't you understand that capitalists and their 'identities' are the norm against which everything must be defined?!"
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2018, 03:20 PM   #2214
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,732
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
That's inane.

"This is a class-critical trade union for workers. Workers are those who sell their labour power for a wage."

"You're just hiding your anti-transworker agenda, how dare you define workers without explicitly referring to a few capitalists who identify as workers?! Don't you understand that capitalists and their 'identities' are the norm against which everything must be defined?!"
That's way too much mixed metaphor for me. LOL

I basically just think it's possible to be skeptical/critical of gender and trans-friendly. The group description did not make me feel like they had sufficiently pure motives to my liking.

ETA: I had assumed "trans exclusive radical feminism" was just a bogeyman, but it does appear that the phenomenon is real, insofar as "it" operates as "gender critical feminism", which has the primary agenda of invalidating transgenderism. Which, eew.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell

Last edited by kellyb; 17th June 2018 at 03:24 PM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2018, 03:42 PM   #2215
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,757
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
That's way too much mixed metaphor for me. LOL

I basically just think it's possible to be skeptical/critical of gender and trans-friendly. The group description did not make me feel like they had sufficiently pure motives to my liking.

ETA: I had assumed "trans exclusive radical feminism" was just a bogeyman, but it does appear that the phenomenon is real, insofar as "it" operates as "gender critical feminism", which has the primary agenda of invalidating transgenderism. Which, eew.
Rather than "adult human females are women", what would you have the group description say so that it would, according to your standards, have "sufficiently pure motives"? And how would you be skeptical/critical of gender and gender-friendly?
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2018, 05:17 PM   #2216
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,732
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Rather than "adult human females are women", what would you have the group description say so that it would, according to your standards, have "sufficiently pure motives"?
I have no idea. Not that, tho.


Quote:
And how would you be skeptical/critical of gender and gender-friendly?
You can question whether or not something is a social phenomenon as opposed to a biological one without being against the people for whom the phenomenon "rings true" for whatever reason.

Also, I'm not 100% convinced gender absolutely is 100% social. There might be some small degree of truth to the pink brain/blue brain thing.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 01:08 AM   #2217
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,757
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I have no idea. Not that, tho.
Maybe you can then explain why they aren't allowed to define and name the group under consideration, ie women? Are trade unions allowed to define and name the working class?

Quote:
You can question whether or not something is a social phenomenon as opposed to a biological one without being against the people for whom the phenomenon "rings true" for whatever reason.
And we have naught but your word to take for it that gender critical feminists are "against the people for whom the phenomenon 'rings true' for whatever reason" of course...

Quote:
Also, I'm not 100% convinced gender absolutely is 100% social. There might be some small degree of truth to the pink brain/blue brain thing.
And now we get to the real problem, you just don't like it that they object to that pink brain/blue brain nonsense.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 11:17 AM   #2218
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,732
Quote:
Maybe you can then explain why they aren't allowed to define and name the group under consideration, ie women? Are trade unions allowed to define and name the working class?
Of course they're allowed to define their group however they want. I'm also allowed to be rubbed the wrong way by them.

I and many other female feminists and non-female feminists are ALSO allowed to define the word woman however we want and include a more nuanced view in how we use the word. The self-identifying GCFs in that reddit group do not "own" feminism, radical feminism, or womanhood.

Quote:
And we have naught but your word to take for it that gender critical feminists are "against the people for whom the phenomenon 'rings true' for whatever reason" of course...
Look through their redditt feed. It's the "anti-transgenderism all the time" channel. That's it. Attacking transgenderism is their raison d'etre. There's nothing else going on in the group.

Quote:
And now we get to the real problem, you just don't like it that they object to that pink brain/blue brain nonsense.
I'm enthusiastically curious about the very distinct possibility that there's nothing at all there behind gender other than social conditioning.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell

Last edited by kellyb; 18th June 2018 at 11:28 AM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 11:34 AM   #2219
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,757
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Of course they're allowed to define their group however they want. I'm also allowed to be rubbed the wrong way by them.
You're allowed to, but you can hardly expect to convince others if you don't have an argument.

Quote:
I and many other female feminists and non-female feminists are ALSO allowed to define the word woman however we want and include a more nuanced view in how we use the word. These self-identifying GCFs do not "own" feminism, radical feminism, or womanhood.
Well feel free to define the word woman then.

Quote:
Look through their redditt feed. It's the "anti-transgenderism all the time" channel. That's it. Attacking transgenderism is their raison d'etre. There's nothing else going on in the group.
A short scroll showed various discussions about sexual harassment at music festivals, Hugh Hefner, tampons, Iranian feminism, Father's day, etc. Yes, there are also critical discussions of gender, which you'd expect from a specifically gender-critical group, no?

It seems like you're expecting a specifically gender critical group to never be critical of gender lest they "rub you the wrong way."
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 12:48 PM   #2220
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,732
Quote:
You're allowed to, but you can hardly expect to convince others if you don't have an argument.
I'm not attempting to convince anyone of anything in this discussion, really. At this point, I'm just talking to you about my own perceptions.

Quote:
A short scroll showed various discussions about sexual harassment at music festivals, Hugh Hefner, tampons, Iranian feminism, Father's day, etc. Yes, there are also critical discussions of gender, which you'd expect from a specifically gender-critical group, no?
This one, where the current top discussions in the order they appear at the top of the screen scrolling down right now are 1) "peak trans", 2)open thread, 3) a discussion about a trans woman being violent, 4) detransitioning from being transgender 5) transgenderism being the new emo trend for bored teenagers?

ETA: same deal with another GCF reddit: 1) troll memes (???) 2) detransitioning 3) how transitioning from female to male is self-hatred 4) an actual legit discission that doesn't appear to be focused on just bashing transpeople! Yay! 5) transgenerism 6) more transgenderism 6) yet more transgenderism
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell

Last edited by kellyb; 18th June 2018 at 12:56 PM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 01:14 PM   #2221
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,732
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
It seems like you're expecting a specifically gender critical group to never be critical of gender lest they "rub you the wrong way."
I swear on my honor, it's really not that.

I would love to be involved in a discussion thread here with you, Rolfe, d4m10n, and a few others where the nature vs nurture, and biology vs social conditioning aspects of gender were explored as in-depth as possible.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 01:41 PM   #2222
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,757
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'm not attempting to convince anyone of anything in this discussion, really. At this point, I'm just talking to you about my own perceptions.



This one, where the current top discussions in the order they appear at the top of the screen scrolling down right now are 1) "peak trans", 2)open thread, 3) a discussion about a trans woman being violent, 4) detransitioning from being transgender 5) transgenderism being the new emo trend for bored teenagers?

ETA: same deal with another GCF reddit: 1) troll memes (???) 2) detransitioning 3) how transitioning from female to male is self-hatred 4) an actual legit discission that doesn't appear to be focused on just bashing transpeople! Yay! 5) transgenerism 6) more transgenderism 6) yet more transgenderism
Here's a more stable listing (used "Top" rather than "Hot" and set the timeframe to 1 month rather than 1 day). We have: (number of votes in brackets)

1. How women are told to "respect pronouns, or else" (388)

About authority.

2. A woman's excellent response on why she no longer supports transactivism (325)

A critical response to gender activism. Exactly something you'd expect from a gender critical group.

3. MULAN IS A WOMAN (305)

A rant about a movie and how a character used to be interpreted as a gender-nonconforming woman but is now interpreted as not (really) a woman for failing to conform to her gender role. Again, exactly something you'd expect from a gender critical group.

4. Study finds that when a husband is diagnosed with cancer, 3% of wives will leave them. On the other hand, 21% of husbands leave their wives after the wife is diagnosed with cancer. (297)

Basically what the title says.

5. Telling women not to wear/make art of female anatomy because “trans women don’t have vaginas” is like telling a UNI student not to wear a sweatshirt with their school’s logo on it because “some people don’t go to that school”. (280)

Not exactly the analogy I'd use, but a perfectly reasonable response to certain demands being made of feminist groups (probably related to that pussy hat thing).
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 02:04 PM   #2223
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,757
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I swear on my honor, it's really not that.
Well I'm sorry but it's really unclear. First you objected to the definition of woman - even though it is the mainstream one - and asserted being allowed to define it differently, but then when asked to give your definition you didn't provide any. Now you apparently seem to be objecting to, well, I'm not sure really. The mention of transgenderism in discussions about gender?

Quote:
I would love to be involved in a discussion thread here with you, Rolfe, d4m10n, and a few others where the nature vs nurture, and biology vs social conditioning aspects of gender were explored as in-depth as possible.
Sure, why not... Though I don't think it'll happen. But on that point I'll just share the following interesting observation:

Did you know that rats show sex differences in both their brains and in their behaviour? The case for pink/blue brains seems to be getting stronger by the day, doesn't it? But did you also know that mother rats preferentially lick their male offspring in a particular way during early life, and that if this is controlled for the sex difference in both brain and behaviour disappears? Suddenly the case doesn't seem to be as strong anymore, does it?
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 03:02 PM   #2224
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,732
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Here's a more stable listing (used "Top" rather than "Hot" and set the timeframe to 1 month rather than 1 day).
4 out of 5, and the top 3, are all about transgenderism!
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 03:11 PM   #2225
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,732
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Now you apparently seem to be objecting to, well, I'm not sure really. The mention of transgenderism in discussions about gender?

I just don't like those groups. They strike me as closer to hate groups than feminist groups. Opposing transgenderism is the overwhelming focus. It's not my kinda people.


Quote:
Sure, why not... Though I don't think it'll happen. But on that point I'll just share the following interesting observation:

Did you know that rats show sex differences in both their brains and in their behaviour? The case for pink/blue brains seems to be getting stronger by the day, doesn't it? But did you also know that mother rats preferentially lick their male offspring in a particular way during early life, and that if this is controlled for the sex difference in both brain and behaviour disappears? Suddenly the case doesn't seem to be as strong anymore, does it?
That certainly sounds like compelling evidence, and I very much am intrigued. Thanks.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell

Last edited by kellyb; 18th June 2018 at 03:39 PM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 03:26 PM   #2226
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,732
It says "While previous literature has demonstrated that gonadal hormones are responsible for shaping many sex differences in the brain, the current study lends support to the growing literature indicating that the environment can also play a critical role in sexual differentiation."

And "These data also suggest that somatosensory stimuli associated with maternal care may further refine sex differences in the brain via an epigenetic mechanism."

Are you certain it's accurate to say "sex difference in both brain and behaviour disappears" as in "it completely disappears"?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 04:03 PM   #2227
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,757
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I just don't like those groups. They strike me as closer to hate groups than feminist groups. Opposing transgenderism is the overwhelming focus. It's not my kinda people.
Yes, opposing gender is the overwhelming focus of a gender critical feminist group, what were you expecting? Do you consider trade unions hate groups because they are overwhelmingly focused on opposing capitalist ideology?
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 04:11 PM   #2228
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,757
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It says "While previous literature has demonstrated that gonadal hormones are responsible for shaping many sex differences in the brain, the current study lends support to the growing literature indicating that the environment can also play a critical role in sexual differentiation."

And "These data also suggest that somatosensory stimuli associated with maternal care may further refine sex differences in the brain via an epigenetic mechanism."

Are you certain it's accurate to say "sex difference in both brain and behaviour disappears" as in "it completely disappears"?
The entire article and data is there, you can just look at the results if you want to be precise. But some of these differences disappear completely, yes, see fig 5.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 04:14 PM   #2229
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,732
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
But some of these differences disappear completely, yes, see fig 5.
Some, but not all?

ETA:
The results of figure 5 don't reach statistical significance, but the effect is still there, though small, and none of the paper addresses the behavior of the baby rats, does it?

Which part of the study demonstrates that sex difference in behavior disappears?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell

Last edited by kellyb; 18th June 2018 at 04:23 PM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 04:21 PM   #2230
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,865
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Did you know that rats show sex differences in both their brains and in their behaviour? The case for pink/blue brains seems to be getting stronger by the day, doesn't it? But did you also know that mother rats preferentially lick their male offspring in a particular way during early life, and that if this is controlled for the sex difference in both brain and behaviour disappears? Suddenly the case doesn't seem to be as strong anymore, does it?
Could this study lend credence to the idea that some aspects typically associated with being a boy/girl/man/woman are actually influenced by parental behavior? i.e. Could it be used to support the notion that a transgender person got the way they are because of the way their mommies treated them?

That's a legitimate question, by the way. I think I will probably read the paper, but I don't have time right now, but your brief summary suggests to me that there might actually be "pink and blue" brains, but which one you end up with is not solely a function of genetics, or of biochemistry, but of your upbringing.
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 04:28 PM   #2231
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,757
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Some, but not all?
It would be unfeasible to study all possible sex differences in rat brains in a single study.

Quote:
ETA:
The results of figure 5 don't reach statistical significance
This is what it says:
Quote:
Control females expressed more ERα mRNA than SMG-treated females (*p < 0.05) or control males (*p < 0.01)
Originally Posted by kellyb
none of the paper addresses the behavior of the baby rats, does it?

Which part of the study demonstrates that sex difference in behavior disappears?
This is what it says:
Quote:
The current study indicates that maternal stimuli can modify sex differences and gene expression within the developing amygdala, a brain region known to be critical for juvenile social interactions, in particular social play behavior (Auger and Olesen, 2009; Meaney, 1989). Recent data have shown that variations in maternal care can alter play fighting behavior in male rats (Parent and Meaney, 2008). Taken together, these data lend support to the idea that the somatosensory stimuli associated with maternal care may alter the developmental programming of the amygdala and result in modified social interactions.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

Last edited by caveman1917; 18th June 2018 at 04:29 PM.
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 04:39 PM   #2232
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,732
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post

This is what it says:
Yes, but they're not claiming that even the majority, much less the totality of the sexually dimorphic behaviors of rats comes from ERα mRNA differences between the sexes, which would be necessary for the results of the study to demonstrate that "the sex difference in both brain and behaviour disappears" as a result of making the mommy rats nurture the babies in identical ways.

eta:
Would it be more accurate to say "...if this is controlled for, some the sex difference brain disappears, which is likely to have large effects upon behavior"?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell

Last edited by kellyb; 18th June 2018 at 04:43 PM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 04:41 PM   #2233
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,757
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Could this study lend credence to the idea that some aspects typically associated with being a boy/girl/man/woman are actually influenced by parental behavior?
Well I've yet to see a single study which lends credence to the idea that gender is biologically determined. Plenty of anthropological evidence exists which shows that at least some gender differences are socially determined, and studies such as the one linked to show that at least some sex differences in the rat brain are socially determined.

The notion that gender is biologically determined is a God of the gaps kind of position, there is no directly supporting evidence for it, but it just gets assumed wherever gaps still exist in the data. For example the rat brain study didn't consider all possible sex differences in rat brains, nor did it consider all possible ways in which the environment could create/reinforce those differences (it only considered a specific type of licking done by rat mothers), and there will always be such gaps because it's simply unfeasible to study it all. None of this is however in favour of the "gender is biological" theory, the simple fact remains that at least some aspects of gender have been shown to be social and not biological, whereas no aspect of gender has yet been shown to be biological and not social.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

Last edited by caveman1917; 18th June 2018 at 04:44 PM.
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 04:44 PM   #2234
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,757
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Yes, but they're not claiming that even the majority, much less the totality of the sexually dimorphic behaviors of rats comes from ERα mRNA differences between the sexes, which would be necessary for the results of the study to demonstrate that "the this specific sex difference in both brain and behaviour disappears" as a result of making the mommy rats nurture the babies in identical ways.
I've made a correction which I think solves this particular misunderstanding. Also see my previous post regarding the God of the gaps position.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 04:47 PM   #2235
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,732
I'm also wondering if there's any evidence refuting this hypothesis, which is widely considered not really a hypothesis at all at this point, but rather a fact.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 04:50 PM   #2236
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,732
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I've made a correction which I think solves this particular misunderstanding. Also see my previous post regarding the God of the gaps position.
You should still not make a claim about behavior that disappears, when the evidence only implies it probably should be the result (and not even a total disappearance, at that).

What did you say about GotG?

ETA:
Quote:
The notion that gender is biologically determined is a God of the gaps kind of position, there is no directly supporting evidence for it, but it just gets assumed wherever gaps still exist in the data.
Well, nevermind gender, then. Let's just hone in on "sexually dimorphic behavior" in all animals, which includes humans. Do you that that is also GotGs sort of deal?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell

Last edited by kellyb; 18th June 2018 at 05:00 PM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 05:02 PM   #2237
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,757
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'm also wondering if there's any evidence refuting this hypothesis, which is widely considered not really a hypothesis at all at this point, but rather a fact.
The article seems to refute itself:
Quote:
The organizational-activational theory has three main components.[7]

1. Organizational effects are permanent.
Quote:
There is evidence that organizational effects are not always permanent. In canaries, only the males produce song. Brain regions associated with bird song, including the hyperstriatum ventrale pars caudale (HVc) and nucleus robustus archistriatalis (RA), are larger in male canaries. However, the HVc and RA grow significantly larger in gonadectomized female canaries if given testosterone at 11 months of age and these females even begin to sing.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 05:06 PM   #2238
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,732
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
The article seems to refute itself:
That the females can be induced to behave more like the males by giving them testosterone is hardly debunking the main jist of what's going on.
ETA: the hypothesis was revised/improved to account for that back in 1985. Look at the footnotes.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell

Last edited by kellyb; 18th June 2018 at 05:11 PM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2018, 09:07 AM   #2239
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 3,402
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Let's just hone in on "sexually dimorphic behavior" in all animals, which includes humans.
This strikes me as a good idea. Is there any reliable way to figure out the extent to which significantly sex-differentiated behaviours are being driven by culture (e.g. inculcation of masculine/feminine social roles and associated expectations) rather than nature (e.g. free testosterone in the bloodstream)?
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2018, 01:51 AM   #2240
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,732
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
This strikes me as a good idea. Is there any reliable way to figure out the extent to which significantly sex-differentiated behaviours are being driven by culture (e.g. inculcation of masculine/feminine social roles and associated expectations) rather than nature (e.g. free testosterone in the bloodstream)?
I don't think so, but perhaps.

I'm curious to know what you think the significantly sex-differentiated behaviors are in humans. I might be easiest if we picked just one and worked from there, maybe?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:24 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.