ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags shooting incidents

Reply
Old 2nd June 2018, 03:46 PM   #161
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 15,837
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Tackle, as in deal with. Not rugby/American football tackle.

Would you at least accept the two men who shot the shooter should be subject to an investigation to establish exactly what their intentions and motives were?
I'll betcha it's already been done. And the men released.
__________________
Great minds discuss ideas.
Medium minds discuss events.
Small minds spend all their time on U-Tube and Facebook.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 11:21 AM   #162
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 20,833
Armed civilian kills gunman, stops shooting spree at Walmart in Washington state

Originally Posted by Washington Post
A gunman who opened fire inside a Walmart in Washington state and injured at least two people during carjacking attempts was fatally shot by one of two armed civilians on Sunday evening, according to police.

Police in Tumwater, just south of Olympia, said they were still piecing together the full story.

About 5 p.m. Pacific Time, authorities received a call about a possibly drunk driver heading the wrong way on a main road near a local high school, said Laura Wohl, Tumwater police public information officer...

...At about 5:30 p.m., they started getting numerous calls of shots fired in and around a nearby Walmart. Wohl said they later confirmed that the man doing the shooting was the same person involved in the carjacking...

...two armed civilians in the parking lot confronted the suspect, one of whom fatally shot the man...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...r-wash-walmart
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 12:58 PM   #163
AJM8125
Potsing Whiled Runk
Tagger
 
AJM8125's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 20,208
Summarily executed in 3... 2...
__________________
AJM8125 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 01:36 PM   #164
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,985
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Armed civilian kills gunman, stops shooting spree at Walmart in Washington state



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...r-wash-walmart
Fantastic. The shooter is apparently a hero

"Yeehah!! We goin' ta git those goddarn varmints un hang'em high! Cleetus. Get me my grits"
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 01:38 PM   #165
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,153
Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
Summarily executed in 3... 2...
Its OK, I get that in the USA it is perfectly acceptable to shoot someone dead who has gun on them when committing a crime, no matter the circumstances. Details do not matter.

Maybe you could define what would count as a summary execution, because so far, nothing appears to.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 04:53 PM   #166
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 15,837
hmm, more incidents, or more reporting of incidents?

Hass the mass media, who want to report controversial incidents in order to raise readership, come full circle? Now they publish more on the stopping of mass shootings than in mass shootings themselves? One dead, one injured, hasn't been national news.
__________________
Great minds discuss ideas.
Medium minds discuss events.
Small minds spend all their time on U-Tube and Facebook.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 06:31 PM   #167
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 59,107
Meanwhile in this time, how many shootings have there been in the US that have not been stopped by good guys with guns?
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 07:45 PM   #168
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,252
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Fantastic. The shooter is apparently a hero

"Yeehah!! We goin' ta git those goddarn varmints un hang'em high! Cleetus. Get me my grits"
God forbid the public ever stop a murderer. I.e. https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_1517_to_paris/

Inexcusable to get involved.
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 08:01 PM   #169
Ranb
Philosopher
 
Ranb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 9,328
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Maybe you could define what would count as a summary execution, because so far, nothing appears to.
You're joking right? Weren't you the one who was trying to convince us that self defense was actually summary execution earlier in this thread?

Perhaps you should better define what a summary execution is.
Ranb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2018, 08:47 PM   #170
AJM8125
Potsing Whiled Runk
Tagger
 
AJM8125's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 20,208
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Its OK, I get that in the USA it is perfectly acceptable to shoot someone dead who has gun on them when committing a crime, no matter the circumstances. Details do not matter.
Sure they matter. Like the minor detail the shooter was an active threat to public safety, not just someone who merely had gun on them when committing a crime.

A tad different.
__________________
AJM8125 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2018, 01:32 AM   #171
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,153
Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
You're joking right? Weren't you the one who was trying to convince us that self defense was actually summary execution earlier in this thread?
I was not convinced members of the public going after a shooter is self defence.

Quote:
Perhaps you should better define what a summary execution is.
I am happy with the dictionary definition.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2018, 01:35 AM   #172
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,153
Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
Sure they matter. Like the minor detail the shooter was an active threat to public safety, not just someone who merely had gun on them when committing a crime.

A tad different.
The original case I was referring to was where the shooter was an active threat to people in a restaurant, but not to people elsewhere.

If someone travels to shoot people in a specific place, I do not think they are necessarily also an active danger to everyone and anyone.

Otherwise, anyone who has a gun in public is a potential active threat to public safety.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2018, 03:26 AM   #173
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 11,290
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The original case I was referring to was where the shooter was an active threat to people in a restaurant, but not to people elsewhere.

If someone travels to shoot people in a specific place, I do not think they are necessarily also an active danger to everyone and anyone.

Otherwise, anyone who has a gun in public is a potential active threat to public safety.
You really can't see a difference between someone who has just been shooting at people in a restaurant and a random person carrying a gun?
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2018, 05:59 AM   #174
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 20,833
We don't know if the armed civilian made any attempt to disarm or de-escalate or if he just shot the guy. We don't know if the shooter threatened the armed civilian. These people don't wear bodycams and don't have training and policies geared towards taking criminals into custody.

Some people would argue that this is good and it's how police should operate anyway. If some guy has shot somebody(s) they should just be killed right away. Don't clog the courts and prisons with these scumbags who cost taxpayers lots of money.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2018, 08:10 AM   #175
AJM8125
Potsing Whiled Runk
Tagger
 
AJM8125's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 20,208
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The original case I was referring to was where the shooter was an active threat to people in a restaurant, but not to people elsewhere.

If someone travels to shoot people in a specific place, I do not think they are necessarily also an active danger to everyone and anyone.
Baloney. Both were active shooters and an immediate threat.
__________________
AJM8125 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2018, 11:58 AM   #176
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,153
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
You really can't see a difference between someone who has just been shooting at people in a restaurant and a random person carrying a gun?
You really think that a shooter keeps on shooting even once they have left their intended target?

If someone shoots up a restaurant and is not traced for a few hours, during which they have not shot at anyone else, is it acceptable to just shoot them dead?
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2018, 12:00 PM   #177
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,153
Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
Baloney. Both were active shooters and an immediate threat.
So once someone has shot at others, no matter what they do, even if it is stop shooting and just leave the scene, with no further shooting, they should just be shot dead?
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2018, 12:31 PM   #178
AJM8125
Potsing Whiled Runk
Tagger
 
AJM8125's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 20,208
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
So once someone has shot at others, no matter what they do, even if it is stop shooting and just leave the scene, with no further shooting, they should just be shot dead?
Irrelevant. The above didnít happen in either case. The OK shooter was justifiably shot when he opened fire on a citizen who was attempting to apprehend him. The WA shooter was firing indiscriminately in public whilst trying to carjack his way out. Neither were simply trying to leave, they were trying to evade arrest.
__________________
AJM8125 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2018, 12:52 PM   #179
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 20,833
Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
The WA shooter was firing indiscriminately in public whilst trying to carjack his way out.
FWIW, the armed civilian who shot that guy would not have known of his earlier shootings that day, only what he witnessed in front of his eyes.

Earlier he had shot another person while carjacking elsewhere and also shot at a glass display case inside the Walmart. The armed civilian wouldn't have known about that earlier stuff.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2018, 02:44 PM   #180
AJM8125
Potsing Whiled Runk
Tagger
 
AJM8125's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 20,208
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
FWIW, the armed civilian who shot that guy would not have known of his earlier shootings that day, only what he witnessed in front of his eyes.

Earlier he had shot another person while carjacking elsewhere and also shot at a glass display case inside the Walmart. The armed civilian wouldn't have known about that earlier stuff.
https://www.google.com/amp/amp.kiro7...ater/771756019

No, they wouldnít know about the first carjack, you are correct. The shooter was killed while attempting a third carjack in the Walmart lot. That was after the shooter critically wounded the second carjack victim, also in the Walmart lot.
__________________
AJM8125 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2018, 06:19 PM   #181
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 11,290
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You really think that a shooter keeps on shooting even once they have left their intended target?
Sometimes. And sometimes it's not clear what their intended target is. Can you answer the question I asked you?

Quote:
If someone shoots up a restaurant and is not traced for a few hours, during which they have not shot at anyone else, is it acceptable to just shoot them dead?
No, the fact that they hadn't shot anyone else for hours would be an indication that they aren't an immediate threat. That's not what happened though, is it?
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2018, 01:44 AM   #182
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,153
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Sometimes. And sometimes it's not clear what their intended target is. Can you answer the question I asked you?
I did answer you. Once the intended target has been shot at, the person then is just someone else with a gun.

Quote:
No, the fact that they hadn't shot anyone else for hours would be an indication that they aren't an immediate threat. That's not what happened though, is it?
Indeed, someone else with a gun then started to shoot.

That is the consequence of lots of people with easy access to guns, good guy, bad guy, people in between, who want to shoot at others.

The really bad guy goes out intending to shoot people. Others, apparently good guys, want guns to shoot those bad guys. But those good guys are not necessarily always good guys. They can get angry and shoot people in cinemas over popcorn.

Meanwhile, justice is not served and random people with guns get to decide who was guilty and their sentence.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2018, 01:46 AM   #183
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,153
Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
Irrelevant. The above didnít happen in either case. The OK shooter was justifiably shot when he opened fire on a citizen who was attempting to apprehend him. The WA shooter was firing indiscriminately in public whilst trying to carjack his way out. Neither were simply trying to leave, they were trying to evade arrest.
The restaurant shooter was shot dead.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2018, 03:24 AM   #184
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 11,290
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I did answer you.
Let's see what question I asked, and look at your answer here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
You really can't see a difference between someone who has just been shooting at people in a restaurant and a random person carrying a gun?
Once the intended target has been shot at, the person then is just someone else with a gun.
I guess I have to interpret that as saying that you don't think there is a difference between someone how has just been shooting people in a restaurant and a random person with a gun.

If not please say so, I'd prefer clarity.

If so, that's a very odd position and I don't think you are being honest.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2018, 03:39 AM   #185
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 18,349
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Let's see what question I asked, and look at your answer here:


I guess I have to interpret that as saying that you don't think there is a difference between someone how has just been shooting people in a restaurant and a random person with a gun.

If not please say so, I'd prefer clarity.

If so, that's a very odd position and I don't think you are being honest.

There's no need to assume dishonesty here. That's a bit of a pet peeve of mine around here. At worst, there's a sort of ideologically induced blindness, to not realize how incredibly different the situations are.
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2018, 03:46 AM   #186
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 11,290
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
There's no need to assume dishonesty here. That's a bit of a pet peeve of mine around here. At worst, there's a sort of ideologically induced blindness, to not realize how incredibly different the situations are.
That's fair.

I probably worded things poorly also as I didn't mean to imply lying, but rather a sort of intellectual dishonesty in the way he was making his argument.

I'm not even trying to argue that his viewpoint on the topic of the thread is necessarily wrong, only that the specific point that there's a difference between a person carrying a gun and a person who has just shot up a restaurant.

Whether that difference is great enough to justify shooting him in the street rather than calling the police is another question, but we can't really discuss it if he can't admit that any difference at all exists.

Of course when I say a difference it's implied that the difference must be meaningful with respect to the situation. There's a difference between a guy wearing a red shirt and one wearing a blue shirt, but it's not meaningful. So the question is, is having just shot up a restaurant a meaningful difference?

Without getting to the level of justifying shooting him, it's still possible to admit that, yes, that difference is meaningful. And looking at this issue honestly I really do think it's hard not to see that difference as existing in a meaningful way that impacts on how we view the actions of those who shot him. We may still condemn them, but it's certainly a meaningful piece of information.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2018, 04:02 AM   #187
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 18,349
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I did answer you. Once the intended target has been shot at, the person then is just someone else with a gun.



Indeed, someone else with a gun then started to shoot.

That is the consequence of lots of people with easy access to guns, good guy, bad guy, people in between, who want to shoot at others.

The really bad guy goes out intending to shoot people. Others, apparently good guys, want guns to shoot those bad guys. But those good guys are not necessarily always good guys. They can get angry and shoot people in cinemas over popcorn.

Meanwhile, justice is not served and random people with guns get to decide who was guilty and their sentence.
Your point is quite legitimate. The "good guy with a gun" might not be a good guy at all. He just might be momentarily acting on the side of the good guys. With ready access to deadly force, ordinary people who think they are good guys, and who genuinely intend to be good guys, can become bad guys in an instant, and they often do, which explains the US homicide rate. It's quite nuts.

Also, the good guy with a gun might very well be a guy with good intentions who misjudges a situation, and either hits an innocent bystander, or perhaps shoots someone in a case of mistaken identity. There's a part of me that cringes when I read a case like the Walmart carjacker case, because I know that in the USA, there are tens of thousands of people who read the story, and they want to be just like those good guys with guns, and in their zeal to be those heroes, somebody is going to be killed, and it won't be the right somebody.

However, I would disagree, at least partially, with your final sentence. When everything goes as intended, I think justice is served. Obviously, the legal process isn't observed, and if things had played out differently, a different sentence would have been handed down under the law, but I don't think the outcome in this case was unjust. Unfortunate, but not unjust. This carjacker guy had just shot a 16 year old girl, and another man, and goodness knows what his intention was next. I think it was a perfectly just outcome.


Also, it's true that the people on the scene decided who was guilty, but when they do that, all of their actions are subject to legal review. When they decide to use force, including deadly force, to stop the guy, their actions will be judged, and if they were wrong they will find themselves charged with a very serious crime. The law will decide who was guilty in that situation. Furthermore, it's really not accurate to call shooting the guy a "sentence". They didn't sentence him to death. What they did was stop someone who was a danger to innocent people. Because they are not professionals, we cut them a lot of slack in how they do that. If the guy ends up dead, that's not a perfect outcome, but it could be worse.
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2018, 07:20 AM   #188
sadhatter
Philosopher
 
sadhatter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,086
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Meanwhile in this time, how many shootings have there been in the US that have not been stopped by good guys with guns?
How many fires occurred when a fire extinguisher wasnt around?
sadhatter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2018, 10:17 AM   #189
P.J. Denyer
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,586
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
How many fires occurred when a fire extinguisher wasnt around?
A closer analogy would be "How many fires occurred that couldn't be extinguished using a controlled burn?".
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2018, 10:30 AM   #190
P.J. Denyer
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,586
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
However, I would disagree, at least partially, with your final sentence. When everything goes as intended, I think justice is served. Obviously, the legal process isn't observed, and if things had played out differently, a different sentence would have been handed down under the law, but I don't think the outcome in this case was unjust. Unfortunate, but not unjust. This carjacker guy had just shot a 16 year old girl, and another man, and goodness knows what his intention was next. I think it was a perfectly just outcome.
I think a part of the problem is that the positions become so entrenched and that some people on the 'regulation' side are reluctant to concede the 'good guy' side of the equation because the 'bad guy' side is taken as inevitable. Stories like this tend to be about the gun that solved the problem, not the one that caused it.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2018, 12:13 PM   #191
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,153
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Let's see what question I asked, and look at your answer here:


I guess I have to interpret that as saying that you don't think there is a difference between someone how has just been shooting people in a restaurant and a random person with a gun.

If not please say so, I'd prefer clarity.

If so, that's a very odd position and I don't think you are being honest.
There is a difference.

But, you are missing the point. These situations are not just black and white. Before he decided to shoot the restaurant, the bad guy was just a random guy with a gun. He may have been a goo guy with a gun until he felt he had a very good reason to shoot at the restaurant. Then he became a bad guy. For all you know, when he left, he had no intention of ever shooting anyone again. He may have become a good guy again.

For all you know the random guys with guns who then decided to challenge him are evil people who had been looking for a reason to test themselves, to shoot someone and are delighted they now have an excuse to do so. They are wannabe cops, desperate vigilantes.

My point is one that has been made on many occasions about good guys with guns becoming bad guys with guns when they get angry, completely misjudge a situation or present with the problem of give a man a hammer and everything becomes a nail.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2018, 12:36 PM   #192
SuburbanTurkey
Muse
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 716
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There is a difference.

But, you are missing the point. These situations are not just black and white. Before he decided to shoot the restaurant, the bad guy was just a random guy with a gun. He may have been a goo guy with a gun until he felt he had a very good reason to shoot at the restaurant. Then he became a bad guy. For all you know, when he left, he had no intention of ever shooting anyone again. He may have become a good guy again.

For all you know the random guys with guns who then decided to challenge him are evil people who had been looking for a reason to test themselves, to shoot someone and are delighted they now have an excuse to do so. They are wannabe cops, desperate vigilantes.

My point is one that has been made on many occasions about good guys with guns becoming bad guys with guns when they get angry, completely misjudge a situation or present with the problem of give a man a hammer and everything becomes a nail.
I can't see any reason why anyone, police or concerned citizen, would have to meet the tremendous burden of knowing the fleeing, armed, and dangerous person's mind before taking reasonable action to protect themselves or the public. The man is fleeing a murder scene, warm gun in hand. Any reasonable person would assume such a person is a danger to life unless they drop the weapon. Carrying a weapon while fleeing an event where the weapon was just used unlawfully is pretty clearly a threat for continued unlawful use. The benefit of the doubt goes to the person not fleeing a violent crime.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2018, 12:41 PM   #193
deadrose
Master Poster
 
deadrose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: the wet side of the mountains
Posts: 2,931
So, the good guy with the gun was not just a random citizen, he was an EMT & volunteer firefighter with active shooter training, as well as a range safety officer.

In other words, he was exactly what most people would like to have as a prerequisite for concealed carry.

http://komonews.com/news/local/walma...tic-experience
deadrose is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2018, 01:00 PM   #194
SuburbanTurkey
Muse
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 716
Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
So, the good guy with the gun was not just a random citizen, he was an EMT & volunteer firefighter with active shooter training, as well as a range safety officer.

In other words, he was exactly what most people would like to have as a prerequisite for concealed carry.

http://komonews.com/news/local/walma...tic-experience
Active shooter training as an EMT is likely just "run, hide, fight". It's not like he was doing room clearing drills with the local SWAT team. I don't know how much training is considered "significant", but the the many of the non-LE members of my gun club probably spend much more time on the range than the average police officer.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2018, 05:56 PM   #195
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 11,290
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There is a difference.
Thanks for that.

Quote:
But, you are missing the point. These situations are not just black and white. Before he decided to shoot the restaurant, the bad guy was just a random guy with a gun. He may have been a good guy with a gun until he felt he had a very good reason to shoot at the restaurant.
Sure, that's possible, but the chances of any random shooting being justified are pretty negligible. Further if that "good guy with a gun" was confronted outside the restaurant and told to drop his gun after having dealt with whatever situation justified his shooting, he should still drop it.

Quote:
Then he became a bad guy. For all you know, when he left, he had no intention of ever shooting anyone again. He may have become a good guy again.
Nothing is ever known with absolute certainty, but the information that he just finished shooting up a restaurant increases the likelihood that he will continue to present a danger. Telling him to drop his gun really does seem to be in the public interest to me.

Quote:
For all you know the random guys with guns who then decided to challenge him are evil people who had been looking for a reason to test themselves, to shoot someone and are delighted they now have an excuse to do so. They are wannabe cops, desperate vigilantes.
Yes, that's possible. And I think there's certainly some likelihood of that, but I'm less interested in the motivations for that actions than whether or not their actions were justified based on what we know of the situation as it was seen by them at the time.

Quote:
My point is one that has been made on many occasions about good guys with guns becoming bad guys with guns when they get angry, completely misjudge a situation or present with the problem of give a man a hammer and everything becomes a nail.
Let me clarify. I think you are right about that. In general we are all less safe with guns on the streets. I think that's just a statistical fact. The number of times public safety is enhanced by someone carrying a gun is far outweighed by the number of times it is reduced, and that reduction of safety isn't always connected to malice.

I just think this specific case is an outlier.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2018, 07:37 PM   #196
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 59,107
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
How many fires occurred when a fire extinguisher wasnt around?
What has that got to do with gun deaths?
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2018, 08:49 PM   #197
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 18,349
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Let me clarify. I think you are right about that. In general we are all less safe with guns on the streets. I think that's just a statistical fact. The number of times public safety is enhanced by someone carrying a gun is far outweighed by the number of times it is reduced, and that reduction of safety isn't always connected to malice.

I just think this specific case is an outlier.
That's my view as well. It doesn't make me want more armed people, but sometimes, it works out. Earlier in the thread someone correctly surmised the intent of my thread title, which was to indicate that a good guy with a gun stopping a bad guy with a gun is not at all the normal case. Normally, the bad guy's damage is all done before the good guys do anything, and in other cases, the good guy ends up doing something bad, out of anger or carelessness.

And it occurs to me I just said things "worked out" when someone was killed. That's a bit unsettling but, well, I would rather the carjacker or restaurant shooter end up dead than have one more innocent victim. There's no way to know if there would have been more victims in either of these cases, but why take a chance?
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2018, 02:51 AM   #198
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,153
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I can't see any reason why anyone, police or concerned citizen, would have to meet the tremendous burden of knowing the fleeing, armed, and dangerous person's mind before taking reasonable action to protect themselves or the public. The man is fleeing a murder scene, warm gun in hand. Any reasonable person would assume such a person is a danger to life unless they drop the weapon. Carrying a weapon while fleeing an event where the weapon was just used unlawfully is pretty clearly a threat for continued unlawful use. The benefit of the doubt goes to the person not fleeing a violent crime.
Have you any evidence to back that up? Evidence which shows a shooter goes to his intended scene, shoots and then goes on to shoot, may high on the adrenaline, or something?

Otherwise you are creating an excuse for good guys to use their guns and I do not think the good guy/bad guy is as clear cut as it is often suggested. A good guy could just monitor and warn others to keep away (which an unarmed good guy has to do).
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2018, 02:53 AM   #199
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,153
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Thanks for that.

Sure, that's possible, but the chances of any random shooting being justified are pretty negligible. Further if that "good guy with a gun" was confronted outside the restaurant and told to drop his gun after having dealt with whatever situation justified his shooting, he should still drop it.

...
Indeed, the good guy is not necessarily the end of the shooting and in fact in these cases, the good guys started another gun fight.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2018, 04:34 AM   #200
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 18,349
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Have you any evidence to back that up? Evidence which shows a shooter goes to his intended scene, shoots and then goes on to shoot, may high on the adrenaline, or something?

Seriously? You are asking if there is any evidence that a murderer or attempted murderer might murder again? Still presents a threat?


Umm......Adam Lanza, Lee Harvey Oswald, and Ho (the guy from Virginia Tech) are three examples who popped into my head of people who murdered at one scene and then went on to murder at another scene. But I'm sure there are hundreds of more examples.
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:41 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.