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Old 2nd June 2018, 11:43 AM   #41
theprestige
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Public accusations of racism are never a mistake. Even when false (are they ever really false?), they're still not a mistake.
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Old 2nd June 2018, 11:46 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Grounds for defamation suit
Doesn't that belong in the Starbucks thread?
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Old 2nd June 2018, 11:50 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Public accusations of racism are never a mistake. Even when false (are they ever really false?), they're still not a mistake.
I'm as leftist a liberal as anyone, but in this case any accusation of racism is false.
Your brush is broader than the bucket of paint you try to use on the left.
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Old 2nd June 2018, 11:52 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
I'm as leftist a liberal as anyone, but in this case any accusation of racism is false.
Your brush is broader than the bucket of paint you try to use on the left.
Tar. Bucket of tar.

Anyway, good job ignoring the point of my post, in your haste to attack the parenthetical.

Last edited by theprestige; 2nd June 2018 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 2nd June 2018, 12:00 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
Doesn't that belong in the Starbucks thread?
That's a main reason why I think the manager at Starbucks was in fact racist. She didn't deny or offer alternative explanation. And she resigned, was not fired. And she enforced policy unequally, where in the bakery it was quite equally enforced...

Wait, where is the similarity again?
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Old 2nd June 2018, 01:12 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
"Unjustly called racists". Who has proven that they are not racists? Who has proven that the woman was not denied a muffin because she is black?
who has proven she has? you can't be serious. just because a non white person is denied a service isn't automatic racism. this is a problem.
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Old 2nd June 2018, 01:14 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Will we see the accuser pick up a microphone and publicly announce, "it wasn't racism. I made a huge mistake"?
why isn't the accuser the racist in this instance if it's true white people were given the same excuse?
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Old 2nd June 2018, 01:16 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Tar. Bucket of tar.

Anyway, good job ignoring the point of my post, in your haste to attack the parenthetical.
so what was the point of your post since I read it the same way they did.
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Old 2nd June 2018, 01:17 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Whip View Post
who has proven she has? you can't be serious. just because a non white person is denied a service isn't automatic racism. this is a problem.
This is Parcher playing "Devil's Advocate" and predicting what others will say. I am pretty sure he doesn't think this is racist.
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Old 2nd June 2018, 01:28 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
The current occupant of the Oval Office qualifies on both counts.
I've said the same about Rush Limbaugh, Jeff Sessions, Steve King, Megyn Kelly, Anthony Cumia, a host of minor comedians, Tucker Carlson, Bill O'Reilly...the list goes on and on, really. And that's only for white people who were obviously racist, in recent history.
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Old 2nd June 2018, 02:45 PM   #51
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Whip View Post
why isn't the accuser the racist in this instance if it's true white people were given the same excuse?
Because accusations of racism are never a mistake.
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Old 2nd June 2018, 03:27 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Because accusations of racism are never a mistake.
They must be racist because they have white skin.

It would be humerous if one of the employees could pull out a certificate to show they were 1/100th African or 1/20th Native American, and then sue the accuser and employer for degomation, unfair dismissal and racisim. But then in ths increasingly idiocratic world this scenario will probably happen soon.
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Old 2nd June 2018, 08:39 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Whip View Post
so what was the point of your post since I read it the same way they did.
Public accusations of racism are never a mistake. Even when they're false or wrong, they're still not a mistake.
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Old 2nd June 2018, 09:03 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Public accusations of racism are never a mistake. Even when false (are they ever really false?), they're still not a mistake.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Because accusations of racism are never a mistake.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Public accusations of racism are never a mistake. Even when they're false or wrong, they're still not a mistake.
Yeah, we get it. 11 straw man irony points for Hufflepuff.
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Old 2nd June 2018, 10:51 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I wonder if these two fired workers will feel some necessity or obligation to repeatedly say to people, "but I'm not a racist" over the next few years.
Problem is that they will be forever branded this way. Places won't hire them based on the off chance people will say "are you that lady that was in the news for refusing to serve a black woman?" Not based on the facts of the case.

But I guess this is what a poster meant when they said that white people need to pay for the songs of their fathers and need to stop whining. Seems a lot uglier than people would like to think.
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Old 2nd June 2018, 10:53 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's a main reason why I think the manager at Starbucks was in fact racist. She didn't deny or offer alternative explanation. And she resigned, was not fired. And she enforced policy unequally, where in the bakery it was quite equally enforced...

Wait, where is the similarity again?
What if someone said 3 white people were served.

All being equal, do you think you could accurately know if they were lying?
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Old 2nd June 2018, 11:23 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
My staff and I often serve people as much as half an hour after the official closing time of my business.

Why?

Two words... "customer service!". You give good customer service to people and they tell other people.
Hope you pay them for the time. A lot of retail chains dont.
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Old 3rd June 2018, 01:55 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Yeah, we get it. 11 straw man irony points for Hufflepuff.
Do we? Some of us still seem to be struggling with the overt meaning of the words used.
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Old 3rd June 2018, 09:35 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Do we? Some of us still seem to be struggling with the overt meaning of the words used.
If someone misunderstands me, I make it out to be their problem and might feel free to ignore them.

If everybody misunderstands me, I've got a problem with my communication.
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Old 3rd June 2018, 09:46 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
If someone misunderstands me, I make it out to be their problem and might feel free to ignore them.

If everybody misunderstands me, I've got a problem with my communication.
The fact that the accusation was false or incorrect does not make the accusation a mistake. The false accusation could have been deliberately made in the full knowledge that it was false. That would not be a "mistake".

Given the facts presented, I think it unlikely that the accusation of racism was a "mistake".
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Last edited by Metullus; 3rd June 2018 at 09:48 PM.
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Old 3rd June 2018, 09:55 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Metullus View Post
The fact that the accusation was false or incorrect does not make the accusation a mistake. The false accusation could have been deliberately made in the full knowledge that it was false. That would not be a "mistake".
I rest my case. theprestige does not mean a word of the line he's been repeating. It's a bit of satire/sarcasm. (a.k.a. "a straw man")
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Old 3rd June 2018, 10:18 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I rest my case. theprestige does not mean a word of the line he's been repeating. It's a bit of satire/sarcasm. (a.k.a. "a straw man")
I suspect he means precisely what he is saying.
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Old 3rd June 2018, 11:39 PM   #63
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Happens in my place of work frequently. If there are customers in the building when we close, we lock the door to stop anyone else getting in and serve and let the customers out when they are done. Not difficult to do. Sometimes if someone can be quick we might even let them in past closing time if we still have customers. Seems to be decent customer service and just being human over all. These employees might not be racist, I've seen no evidence they are, but these people might not have been cut out for employment in a customer facing environment.
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Old 4th June 2018, 12:38 AM   #64
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Maybe the method of refusing this woman differed to the method refusing the two white women? Same justification but different method? Just a thought.

From a distant past working in a service profession, if a customer objects to even a polite refusal of service (for example because the establishment is closed), just serve the customer. You can even talk **** about him/her afterwards.
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Old 4th June 2018, 04:59 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
What if someone said 3 white people were served.

All being equal, do you think you could accurately know if they were lying?
I don't understand what you are asking. The whole story could in theory be lies. The bakery, the fired workers, Lillian, all of it. Are you asking if someone randomly gave false witness, how could we tell?
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Old 4th June 2018, 05:11 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Metullus View Post
I suspect he means precisely what he is saying.
We'll just have to agree to disagree, I guess. I suspect butter wouldn't melt in his mouth and he's baiting progressives, liberals, SJWs and snowflakes.
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Old 4th June 2018, 05:18 AM   #67
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From ABC 30, linked in the OP:

Quote:
The bakery's statement says that even though it does not consider the employees to be racist and that they were following the business's protocol of closing at 9 p.m., they were fired because "sometimes impact outweighs intent."
In the statement "Back To Eden" says the employees were fired because the woman and the "clamoring public" demanded they be fired.

In one statement, the bakery admitted that the employees did not necessarily do anything wrong, "this is more about how a black woman was made to feel" at the business.
The bakery has since deleted those statements. Wonder why?

http://abcstlouis.com/news/nation-wo...-after-closing
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Old 4th June 2018, 05:30 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
So we had the tiki torch white supremacists getting called out and fired. That makes sense.

We have have two bakery employees getting fired for closing the shop at the time the shop closed and dubious reasoning being applied to label them racist.

Where along the gradient does a sense of goddamn perspective kick in?

Portland may not be the best place to get a national opinion about this, btw :9.
Perhaps the two employees voted for Trump, so they knew they were racist...
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Old 4th June 2018, 05:39 AM   #69
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But truly, the muffin shop should have hired a more diverse crew to man the shop.

Because they should know by now that diversity= workers wanting to stay at work past closing.
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Old 4th June 2018, 05:53 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Metullus View Post
I suspect he means precisely what he is saying.
I mean what you interpreted, anyway. I apologize for making the discussion worse, instead of better.
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Old 4th June 2018, 06:05 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The bakery has since deleted those statements. Wonder why?
I wouldn't be surprised if the reason that they removed the statements is because they were told that they were racist statements. The owners' explanation for what actions they took and why is a white racist explanation.
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Old 4th June 2018, 06:23 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I mean what you interpreted, anyway. I apologize for making the discussion worse, instead of better.
I don't know if it made it better or worse, but I also understood your post perfectly well.
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Old 4th June 2018, 06:54 AM   #73
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It's quite possible that the workers were racist towards the black woman and refused her service due to the bakery being closed. I'm not saying that happened, but it's logically possible, and as we lack information, cannot be dismissed as a possibility.

It could also be the case that the workers are the least racist people you've ever seen and that the PC-run-amock crowd are lining up behind the customer simply because she's black, thus forever proving that liberals are the true racists. I mean, it could be that.
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Old 4th June 2018, 07:13 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's quite possible that the workers were racist towards the black woman and refused her service due to the bakery being closed. I'm not saying that happened, but it's logically possible, and as we lack information, cannot be dismissed as a possibility.
Only if you ignore the two white people sho came in before her, but after closing, who were also turned away. The treatment was exactly the same, so no issue.

Quote:
It could also be the case that the workers are the least racist people you've ever seen and that the PC-run-amock crowd are lining up behind the customer simply because she's black, thus forever proving that liberals are the true racists. I mean, it could be that.
Except, on the national level, nobody is actually standing behind her, and even the shop's twitter feed shows nobody saying that they did anything right. Even the owners said "Yeah, no racism, but you're still fired." No national activist is discussing it, no major media is giving her positive coverage, the only protests are people saying "Hey, treat your workers better than this." which I agree with. So, there seems to be no such crowd.
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Old 4th June 2018, 07:14 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I mean what you interpreted, anyway. I apologize for making the discussion worse, instead of better.
It was easy to understand based on prior conversations. Such as negligent discharges never being an accident.

It is a solid point that needed to be made, but some people may have been reading in haste and thought you were pulling more of a cain than a thepretige.

The accuser knew what she was doing and got the attention desired. Now, it is incumbent on the community to make sure she gets the attention she deserves. I'm not familiar enough with the community to know if that is likely.

ETA: Based on Mumbles's post directly above mine it sounds like she is getting the attention she deserves. That is good.
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Old 4th June 2018, 10:55 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Maybe the method of refusing this woman differed to the method refusing the two white women? Same justification but different method? Just a thought.

From a distant past working in a service profession, if a customer objects to even a polite refusal of service (for example because the establishment is closed), just serve the customer. You can even talk **** about him/her afterwards.
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's quite possible that the workers were racist towards the black woman and refused her service due to the bakery being closed. I'm not saying that happened, but it's logically possible, and as we lack information, cannot be dismissed as a possibility.

It could also be the case that the workers are the least racist people you've ever seen and that the PC-run-amock crowd are lining up behind the customer simply because she's black, thus forever proving that liberals are the true racists. I mean, it could be that.
Keep digging and I'm sure you'll find the racism!
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Old 4th June 2018, 12:46 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I mean what you interpreted, anyway. I apologize for making the discussion worse, instead of better.
You made a good point - there is nothing for which you need apologize.
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Old 4th June 2018, 01:05 PM   #78
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Old 4th June 2018, 01:08 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
We'll just have to agree to disagree, I guess. I suspect butter wouldn't melt in his mouth and he's baiting progressives, liberals, SJWs and snowflakes.
Not baiting, and not satire. A statement of how our society works right now. Even when the accusation is wrong; even when some are willing to say after the fact that it was wrong; what actually happens? The employees are still fired.

And the next time someone makes a public accusation of racism, what's going to happen? Is the employer going to tell them they've made a mistake? Will they survive the "believe the 'victim'" ********* that will erupt if they do?

There are no real consequences, right now, to mistakenly accusing someone of racism. There are, however, significant consequences for claiming that the accusation was a mistake. That's why Starbucks promptly fired the offending employee, and staged a major production of Woke Theater involving their all their branch employees.

That's why this bakery promptly fired two of their employees. That's why the reason they gave for the firing was that even though the accusation was a mistake, it wasn't really a mistake. And that's why they ultimately removed even that explanation. Because even when it's a mistake, it's not allowed to treat it as a mistake.

That bakery is lucky they haven't had a brick through their window, over the stuff they posted on their website trying to whitesplain explain what happened. If they'd taken the line, "our employees are not racist, they did nothing wrong and we stand by them", they'd probably be out of business by now. Because, in this country, as a practical matter, accusations of racism are never a mistake.

Case in point:
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Maybe the method of refusing this woman differed to the method refusing the two white women? Same justification but different method? Just a thought.
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's quite possible that the workers were racist towards the black woman and refused her service due to the bakery being closed. I'm not saying that happened, but it's logically possible, and as we lack information, cannot be dismissed as a possibility.
uke2se is still trying to figure out a way that this accusation might not be a mistake.

I'm not saying this to bait you, Foolmewunz. I'm saying this so that you can discuss it, if you want to. Which I'm thinking you don't. And that's okay, too. All I ask is that if you don't want to discuss something, you leave the thread to those that do, instead of cluttering it up with your jamming signal.

Last edited by theprestige; 4th June 2018 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 4th June 2018, 08:27 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's why this bakery promptly fired two of their employees. That's why the reason they gave for the firing was that even though the accusation was a mistake, it wasn't really a mistake. And that's why they ultimately removed even that explanation. Because even when it's a mistake, it's not allowed to treat it as a mistake.
Maybe. Maybe not.

If they had said they are taking the claim seriously, have suspended the employees with pay while they investigate, and then shared the results of their investigation in a format of more than 280 characters, then I think they may have been good with most people. A clear statement of what happened, the evidence they used to determine this and what they plan to do in response would likely have defused the claims of racism.

The facts as laid out are not seriously being questioned and it looks like more people are mad about the overreaction than the original claim, now that the facts are laid out.

Take a deep breath and figure out what is going on before acting seems like the accepted way to deal with most PR situations. But, you also have to show people that you actually are trying to figure out what is going on. Clear communication is key and these guys failed in that regard.
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