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Old 15th June 2018, 05:13 AM   #201
cullennz
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All I know about hate is I have only ever truly personally hated 2 people.

I've disliked a fair few more

The running theme is they were all individuals, not a group they happened to belong to.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

Last edited by cullennz; 15th June 2018 at 05:21 AM.
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Old 15th June 2018, 05:19 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
All of that is true, but does this reaction to it make sense?
Pledge to vote for feminist women only. Donít run for office. Donít be in charge of anything. Step away from the power. We got this. And please know that your crocodile tears wonít be wiped away by us anymore. We have every right to hate you. You have done us wrong. #BecausePatriarchy. It is long past time to play hard for Team Feminism. And win.
Absolutely not. As I said in an earlier post, I prefer to work WITH the men who despise toxic masculinity and who teach their children that they should treat everyone with equal respect. Two of my best male friends are that way with their children, and none of my other male friends have ever treated me or the women in our circle with anything less than respect and acknowledgement of our equality. It's a slow process, but with men like my two friends teaching their children what is, in my opinion, the correct way to treat others, there is some progress.
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Old 15th June 2018, 05:22 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Yes.

I suspect that a lot of the reported hours include commuting, golfing, company retreats and very nice meals in lovely restaurants and other such things that, while technically work, is also stuff for which most of us would be happy to pay and call leisure time.
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Old 15th June 2018, 05:24 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
Absolutely not. As I said in an earlier post, I prefer to work WITH the men who despise toxic masculinity and who teach their children that they should treat everyone with equal respect. Two of my best male friends are that way with their children, and none of my other male friends have ever treated me or the women in our circle with anything less than respect and acknowledgement of our equality. It's a slow process, but with men like my two friends teaching their children what is, in my opinion, the correct way to treat others, there is some progress.
You seem to talk about these things like there arent mothers who don't

"Teach their children that they should treat everyone with equal respect."
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 15th June 2018, 05:24 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Well, forced quotas can't be the answer.
Why not? Wouldn't the U.S. Senate be better off with 50 women from 50 states?
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Old 15th June 2018, 05:26 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I suspect that a lot of the reported hours include commuting, golfing, company retreats and very nice meals in lovely restaurants and other such things that, while technically work, is also stuff for which most of us would be happy to pay and call leisure time.
Pretty much all of my reported hours in the past 30 years have been in conditions far more luxurious than most people have enjoyed for most of human history. But it's all been hard work, and long hours taken away from other things I could have done.
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Old 15th June 2018, 05:29 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Why not? Wouldn't the U.S. Senate be better off with 50 women from 50 states?
Have you seen some of the women in the US senate? I don't think women are any better than men, for that sort of thing.
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Old 15th June 2018, 05:31 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Because it disrupts the business. No matter how well arranged, no matter how well organised, a key figure being out of the business for, what? At a minimum, say, three months, is going to impact on the business.

I realise it's not a happy thought or a useful one , but it is a fact.
So if we then decide that, because women COULD get pregnant, they therefore should not be allowed in positions of responsibility and seniority, are you then going to apply that logic to the equally as likely probability that because people in general COULD get injured and have to take extensive time off (car accidents, maybe they fell and broke a leg, or suffered some injury that resulted in them having to take extensive time off of work), they should not be allowed in positions of authority as well? Oh wait; that leaves us with no one to take positions of authority, doesn't it?

The point is, a woman taking time off for maternity leave, while disruptive, is not a reason to disallow them in positions of authority, which was the original argument against the idea, I believe. Is it disruptive? Yes; I'm not arguing that. But it's equally as disruptive for someone in authority to suffer a severe injury and have to take an equal amount of time off that a woman would take for maternity leave, whether they're a male or not. Most companies take that sort of thing into account by having people available to cover down on the responsibilities of the person who is out of the office for whatever reason.
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Old 15th June 2018, 05:33 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Have you seen some of the women in the US senate? I don't think women are any better than men, for that sort of thing.
Disagreed. Women are generally less likely to pass laws telling other women that they must submit to involuntary servitude in order to promote someone else's genetic interests.
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Old 15th June 2018, 05:34 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
You seem to talk about these things like there arent mothers who don't

"Teach their children that they should treat everyone with equal respect."
I read about mothers all the time who don't. Who think their little precious child is the be-all and end-all and therefore deserves more of whatever than the other children around them, thereby imparting the idea to their child that they don't have to treat others around them with respect. Are they a majority? Probably not, but they are WIDELY prevalent.
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Old 15th June 2018, 05:35 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post

Most companies take that sort of thing into account by having people available to cover down on the responsibilities of the person who is out of the office for whatever reason.
Do you have a link to this claim?

Edit: apologies should reiterate

To businesses having plans for individual workers disappearing for months
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

Last edited by cullennz; 15th June 2018 at 05:37 AM.
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Old 15th June 2018, 05:40 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Disagreed. Women are generally less likely to pass laws telling other women that they must submit to involuntary servitude in order to promote someone else's genetic interests.
Is abortion the only issue you care about?
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Old 15th June 2018, 05:40 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Do you have a link to this claim?
In every job I have ever had, including the retail jobs I had before and during college, had a chain of authority in place that allowed for someone to step into a position of responsibility if someone was out of the office/workplace. Every goverment agency I've ever worked at had that. I've worked for five companies, and even the smallest company (around fifty to a hundred employees) had that. Every person I've worked with who worked for other companies (as a contractor, I'm often around contractors from other companies), had the same thing. I'd say it's a widespread, common concept that doesn't exactly need a link to back it up.

Edit: saw your edits and adjusted accordingly; apologies for any abruptness that remains.
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Last edited by Sabrina; 15th June 2018 at 05:42 AM.
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Old 15th June 2018, 05:44 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
So if we then decide that, because women COULD get pregnant, they therefore should not be allowed in positions of responsibility and seniority, are you then going to apply that logic to the equally as likely probability that because people in general COULD get injured and have to take extensive time off (car accidents, maybe they fell and broke a leg, or suffered some injury that resulted in them having to take extensive time off of work), they should not be allowed in positions of authority as well? Oh wait; that leaves us with no one to take positions of authority, doesn't it?

Okay, first, calm down. I haven't stated in any way what should happen. I've stated a fact. I have made no indication at all of what should happen because of that fact.

Your points about the relative odds are just pointless. Women have all the same odds of randomly being away from work as do men and, in addition there is the increased risk that they will fall pregnant and have to not be at work.

But you seem to believe I've recommended a course of action. I haven't. I've just stated a fact. It's really, really foolish to pretend that fact doesn't exists, it just creates resentment*, I'm afraid.

I haven't in any way suggested what we, as a society, should do about this fact to remain fair to all parties in the workplace, to business owners, to mothers and to fathers.


Quote:
The point is, a woman taking time off for maternity leave, while disruptive, is not a reason to disallow them in positions of authority, which was the original argument against the idea, I believe.
Original argument from whom? I'm not past the 'establishing facts' bit yet. I haven't even begun to make any arguments.


Quote:
Is it disruptive? Yes; I'm not arguing that.
And therefore expensive. Two businesses, one that employs a man, one a woman, in high level positions. Both are perfectly healthy. One stops work for three moths to give birth. All other things being equal, the one that employs the man will make more money.

Quote:
But it's equally as disruptive for someone in authority to suffer a severe injury and have to take an equal amount of time off that a woman would take for maternity leave, whether they're a male or not.
Yes, men and women share that risk. Women are also at risk of falling pregnant.

Quote:
Most companies take that sort of thing into account by having people available to cover down on the responsibilities of the person who is out of the office for whatever reason.
But the increased risk of a lady being off work is a real thing. So often discussions like the one we're having pretend that it isn't and that's mental. What we need to do is acknowledge that ladies are more likely to be off work to give birth and accommodate that somehow.

What we don't want to do is try to live in a fantasy land where being pregnant doesn't affect a woman at all, giving birth takes no time, post natal depression or other health issues don't exist and that employing a woman comes with only the same risk of absenteeism as does employing a man. Let's not pretend that being pregnant, giving birth and the first three months of an infants life is non-disruptive, easy and wouldn't affect one's work at all. That's a gross *********** insult to mothers everywhere.












(*I'm afraid I' genuinely resent when my female colleagues take maternity leave and everyone else in the department just has to make up the hole in the workflow because my company manages natal leave very badly.)
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Old 15th June 2018, 05:44 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Is abortion the only issue you care about?
No, merely the most obvious one upon which men and women tend to have a different perspective. Numerous other examples could serve as well.
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Old 15th June 2018, 05:44 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I suspect that a lot of the reported hours include commuting, golfing, company retreats and very nice meals in lovely restaurants and other such things that, while technically work, is also stuff for which most of us would be happy to pay and call leisure time.
https://visual.ly/community/infograp...ortune-500-ceo

This is a breakdown of the data from another survey (not too much clarity on the number of subjects, but it's what I was able to find). I'm not seeing any golfing or lovely restaurants in there, but there's still 12 hours/day of work happening.
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Old 15th June 2018, 05:47 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
No, merely the most obvious one upon which men and women tend to have a different perspective. Numerous other examples could serve as well.
Seems to me you are really just saying women tend to be more liberal than men.

If you instituted quotas, though, you are not likely to get a more liberal Congress, but merely more conservative women.
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Old 15th June 2018, 05:48 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
Have you worked in a company that fell apart because one person was out for two or three months or something? Literally every job I have ever had, including the retail jobs I had before and during college, had a chain of authority in place that allowed for someone to step into a position of responsibility if someone was out of the office/workplace. Every goverment agency I've ever worked at had that. I've worked for five companies, and even the smallest company (around fifty to a hundred employees) had that. Every person I've worked with who worked for other companies (as a contractor, I'm often around contractors from other companies), had the same thing. So no, there's not a "link" for that claim, but given that I've come into contact during the course of my professional life with nearly fifty companies or agencies who all operated under the same principle of "have someone there who can take over if someone's out", I'd say it's a widespread, common concept that doesn't exactly need a link to back it up.
No

But I have known mates who own small companies having to get in temps double the money the person on unknown extended leave is on. And the people needed retraining.

Not all have been pregnancy or even women.

I don't actually have a problem with it personally as I have never had to deal with it.

But to pretend it isn't a valid concern when hirering youngish women is naive

And to pretend it isn't warranted in a small business is naive
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

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Old 15th June 2018, 05:51 AM   #219
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Btw

My idea of a small company is 4-10 employees
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 15th June 2018, 05:52 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
One stops work for three moths to give birth.
I'm confused. Is she working for the three moths, or are the three moths giving birth?
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Old 15th June 2018, 05:54 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Seems to me you are really just saying women tend to be more liberal than men.
I wasn't really saying that, but it just happens to be true: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...ential-voting/
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Old 15th June 2018, 05:58 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Your points about the relative odds are just pointless. Women have all the same odds of randomly being away from work as do men and, in addition there is the increased risk that they will fall pregnant and have to not be at work.
That's not true. Men have a higher chance of dying, for instance, over any given period. And that will probably be at least as disruptive to their employer as an employee's absence due to pregnancy.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3222499/
(Numbers for the US, but the pattern is similar globably)
Quote:
At birth there are 105 boys for every 100 girls. There would be even more, but fetal death is 7% higher for boys than girls. The mortality gap widens immediately; by their first birthday, 21% more boys than girls die. Excess male demise continues throughout life, such that by age 65 years or older, there are 75 men for every 100 women.
Some of that gender disparity is due to men taking riskier jobs, and the women in those jobs will likely have the same risk of job-related death or injury, but that's not the only contributor to the increased risk.

The average man is still much less likely to die/unit time than the average woman is to become pregnant/unit time, but I just thought it worth pointing out that, contrary to what you said, the risks of injury, illness, and death aren't constant across gender.
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Old 15th June 2018, 05:59 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm confused. Is she working for the three moths, or are the three moths giving birth?
Can't speak for other countries but in NZ women get 22 weeks fully paid leave or whatever amount of weeks that they decide lower

Changing in 2 years to 6 months paid parental leave or whatever they decide lower
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 15th June 2018, 06:02 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Can't speak for other countries but in NZ women get 22 weeks fully paid leave or whatever amount of weeks that they decide lower

Changing in 2 years to 6 months paid parental leave or whatever they decide lower
And besides, moths don't give birth, they lay eggs.
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Old 15th June 2018, 06:04 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
And besides, moths don't give birth, they lay eggs.
Somebody got the joke.
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Old 15th June 2018, 06:07 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I wasn't really saying that, but it just happens to be true: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...ential-voting/
I know itís true. But quotas wonít help you achieve your partisan goal.

Of course, the split isnít simple either. There is a significant gap between married and unmarried women as well.
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Old 15th June 2018, 06:08 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
That's not true. Men have a higher chance of dying, for instance, over any given period. And that will probably be at least as disruptive to their employer as an employee's absence due to pregnancy.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3222499/
(Numbers for the US, but the pattern is similar globably)


Some of that gender disparity is due to men taking riskier jobs, and the women in those jobs will likely have the same risk of job-related death or injury, but that's not the only contributor to the increased risk.

The average man is still much less likely to die/unit time than the average woman is to become pregnant/unit time, but I just thought it worth pointing out that, contrary to what you said, the risks of injury, illness, and death aren't constant across gender.

True. The risk of falling pregnant applies to one gender and one gender only. And, while I can't prove it, I would bet a reasonable amount of money that, while men are slightly more likely to be ill or injured, overall, women spend more time out of the workplace due to pregnancy or childcare issues.

Please note, I am simply stating how things are, not that the current state is correct and not that nothing can be done, simply that, certainly in my experience, and probably overall, women are absent more often.

I think, if we are to have a reasonable discussion about equality in the workplace and redressing anything that is unbalanced, it's really, really foolish to start with the absolute lie that being pregnant, giving birth, and looking after that child for the early part of their life is easy. It's not. Anyone that says it is easy and non-disruptive just hasn't done it.

Add into this the fact that the risk only applies to women and that means we need to have a serious discussion about what to do with it. What it does not mean is that we should pretend that having a kid is a non event in terms of impact on work.
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Old 15th June 2018, 06:09 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
And besides, moths don't give birth, they lay eggs.
As I said I don't particularly care

I don't own a small business

But to pretend men and women (yes and women) hiring people in small businesses don't think about this is laughable
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Old 15th June 2018, 06:10 AM   #229
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I agree with everything you said there.

ETA This post was in response to 3point14's post#227
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Old 15th June 2018, 06:11 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I know itís true. But quotas wonít help you achieve your partisan goal.
I'm registered independent, but that said, why should it matter whether gender parity affects partisan goals? Isn't parity good in and of itself?
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Old 15th June 2018, 06:21 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'm registered independent, but that said, why should it matter whether gender parity affects partisan goals? Isn't parity good in and of itself?
Parity of pay and the equivalent parity of chosen long working hours?

Parity of pay and the equivalent parity of risk of death or injury?

Parity of pay and the equivalent parity of time away from family?

Or just parity of pay?
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Old 15th June 2018, 06:24 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'm registered independent, but that said, why should it matter whether gender parity affects partisan goals?
If you're pursuing gender parity for the sake of partisan goals, expect partisan resistance.

Quote:
Isn't parity good in and of itself?
Why would it be? If you believe it's axiomatically good, well, there is no counter-argument against that, but there's also no argument for it. If you don't believe it's axiomatically good, then what (other than partisan advantage) makes it good?
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Old 15th June 2018, 06:31 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why would it be?
Because people bring their personal experiences to the table, and legislators are people who make judgement calls based in part upon their own experiences.

Just to take one obvious example, Senator Duckworth brings the experience of trying to balance an intense career schedule with the demands of early motherhood, which have been mentioned elsewhere in this thread.

Okay, one more example. Senator McCain stood up against torture when most of the GOP wouldn't.
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Old 15th June 2018, 06:33 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Parity of pay and the equivalent parity of chosen long working hours?

Parity of pay and the equivalent parity of risk of death or injury?

Parity of pay and the equivalent parity of time away from family?

Or just parity of pay?
I wasn't talking about pay, but I do think all Senators should be paid the same.
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Old 15th June 2018, 06:35 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Because people bring their personal experiences to the table, and legislators are people who make judgement calls based in part upon their own experiences.
And this requires parity... why?

And what other forms of parity should we pursue? Should we try to make sure a certain percentage of Congress is Catholic? Mormon? Homeschooled? Truck drivers? Cashiers? Drug dealers?

Why not simply let voters decide what personal experience they value in the politicians they elect?
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Old 15th June 2018, 07:15 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Because it disrupts the business. No matter how well arranged, no matter how well organised, a key figure being out of the business for, what? At a minimum, say, three months, is going to impact on the business.

I realise it's not a happy thought or a useful one , but it is a fact.

It is also not nearly as common an occurrence as opponents of female managers tend to want to portray it as being. They'd have us believe that such a situation is inevitable, despite the fact that the higher up the management ladder you go, the less likely the women there are to take time out to have children.

And with modern technology it is not nearly as much of an impediment to doing business as those same folks would have us believe. But too much of American business is stuck in a 19th century office model, and are incapable of understanding the flexibility available to them.
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Old 15th June 2018, 07:50 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why not simply let voters decide what personal experience they value in the politicians they elect?
You think women are given the chance to vote for other women half the time? 25% maybe?
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Old 15th June 2018, 07:56 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
You think women are given the chance to vote for other women half the time? 25% maybe?
If fewer women are running for office, then artificially inflating their success rates with quotas is likely to lower the quality. Is that the solution you want?

And why does it only matter who women are given the chance to vote for?

Plus, of course, you didn't answer the question of why parity was required, or what other forms of parity we should pursue.
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Old 15th June 2018, 08:00 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Plus, of course, you didn't answer the question of why parity was required...
I already did, upthread.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If fewer women are running for office, then artificially inflating their success rates with quotas is likely to lower the quality.
Dude, have you seen the Senate?

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And why does it only matter who women are given the chance to vote for?
Any group that comprises more than half of the voters should be well-represented (IMO) if you want to lay claim to the idea of representative democracy.
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Old 15th June 2018, 08:02 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
It is also not nearly as common an occurrence as opponents of female managers tend to want to portray it as being. They'd have us believe that such a situation is inevitable, despite the fact that the higher up the management ladder you go, the less likely the women there are to take time out to have children.

And with modern technology it is not nearly as much of an impediment to doing business as those same folks would have us believe. But too much of American business is stuck in a 19th century office model, and are incapable of understanding the flexibility available to them.

But it is still an impediment. All of this desperately pretending it has no effect is not ever going to assist in moving towards a more equitable situation.

Pretending that nine months of pregnancy, the massive physical an hormonal changes that come with it, the trauma of giving birth, the post-natal risks of physical and psychological issues that come with having just given birth while at the same time tending for a helpless individual is all just a walk in the park and won't ever effect someone's work is just total fantasyland. And, again, I would like to point out, is an absolute smack in the face to pregnant ladies and new mothers everywhere.

The search for a more equitable society really cannot begin with a tissue of lies.
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