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Old 24th March 2018, 03:09 PM   #41
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
What was the model that was proposed to have shot down the airliner?
What does that have to do with anything?

Quote:
Interestingly, this page has data for the Su-25 and Su-39 (aka Su-25TM), which shows a ceiling of 7000m for Su-25 and 10,000m for Su-39.
The TM upgrade didn't start until 1997, yet the cockpit video footage is from 1995. At this point I'm still going with what I said earlier.

Maybe a thread in the Science subforum would be a better idea to discuss the plane's performance characteristics as such, since this thread is really about the CT that the number was changed upwards ex post facto and how and why that all evolved the way it did. I'll happily provide whatever information I have about the performance characteristics of the plane, but I'm just really not that interested in it as such, I don't really care how high the plane really does or doesn't fly - that's not my (main) interest in this.
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Old 24th March 2018, 03:14 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Why don’t you argue with those promoting it on Wikipedia?

That's my question. He seems to want people here to either defend a Wikipedia edit or share his outrage over a Wikipedia edit. I don't see why anybody would reasonably expect people here to do that.
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Old 24th March 2018, 03:17 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Because it is a blockable offense to do so, hence why I sent an email to ArbCom informing them of the situation. I have yet to receive a response.

Then why did you suggest that Tomtomkent should do so?
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Old 24th March 2018, 03:24 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
That's my question.
Why (risk) get(ting) blocked? All the information on the CT is publicly available, and we can discuss it right here.

Quote:
He seems to want people here to either defend a Wikipedia edit or share his outrage over a Wikipedia edit. I don't see why anybody would reasonably expect people here to do that.
Of course I expect neither, what I do expect is for people to at least account for evidence already given before making arguments (such as that "conversion error" argument earlier).
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Old 24th March 2018, 03:24 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
That's my question. He seems to want people here to either defend a Wikipedia edit or share his outrage over a Wikipedia edit. I don't see why anybody would reasonably expect people here to do that.

I wonder if he’s considered the possibility that the reason it was changed in 2004 might not be the same as the reason it was changed post-2014.
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Old 24th March 2018, 03:31 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Then why did you suggest that Tomtomkent should do so?
Because he was arguing as if I was defending the CT rather than debunking it, so I referred him to the only people I'm aware of specifically defending it. After he clarified that he just wanted to discuss how and why some people might be led to believe it, I said:
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
If you want to discuss how and why some people might fool themselves into believing the CT or the errors in judgement that lead up to it, then sure, do so. I don't see how it's going to be anything other than the usual though.
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Old 24th March 2018, 03:34 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
I wonder if he’s considered the possibility that the reason it was changed in 2004 might not be the same as the reason it was changed post-2014.
What reason do you suggest for the "change in 2004"? What was the number before the change? Please share these possibilities that you've considered, and explain how they would refute my debunking of this particular CT.
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Old 24th March 2018, 04:37 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Those links have been given in my OP and I've given them now three times already or something. Please let your next post actually be productive.
Dude, you had such a confusion of links and story in the OP it was frankly hard to follow what you were trying to do. Looking back at the talk page regarding the arbitration committee, it looks to me like a bunch of he-said she-said, including accusations of gaslighting with no evidence that was the case. If a party of folks come scrambling in throwing around accusations like bulls in a China shop, and Wikipedia folks are already on the defensive because of very real Russian troll manipulation (in other cases), then I'm not surprised the whole thing gets shut down.

As far as any ex-post facto evidence, without any full computer forensics access or skills, I don't see how I, or even you, can evaluate that claim or any other in this matter.

That said, enjoy your further efforts. I don't have very high expectations of it getting anywhere, because combative tones tend to result in things like banning more than they result in any real findings of truth.
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Old 24th March 2018, 04:55 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Dude, you had such a confusion of links and story in the OP it was frankly hard to follow what you were trying to do. Looking back at the talk page regarding the arbitration committee, it looks to me like a bunch of he-said she-said, including accusations of gaslighting with no evidence that was the case. If a party of folks come scrambling in throwing around accusations like bulls in a China shop, and Wikipedia folks are already on the defensive because of very real Russian troll manipulation (in other cases), then I'm not surprised the whole thing gets shut down.

As far as any ex-post facto evidence, without any full computer forensics access or skills, I don't see how I, or even you, can evaluate that claim or any other in this matter.

That said, enjoy your further efforts. I don't have very high expectations of it getting anywhere, because combative tones tend to result in things like banning more than they result in any real findings of truth.
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Old 25th March 2018, 01:54 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
I wonder if he’s considered the possibility that the reason it was changed in 2004 might not be the same as the reason it was changed post-2014.
Yes, that’s what I was trying to get at, too.
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Old 25th March 2018, 02:17 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Yes, that’s what I was trying to get at, too.

But then all he’d have would be a claim, with sources outside Wikipedia, that the article has been manipulated since 2014.
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Old 25th March 2018, 04:43 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
But then all he’d have would be a claim, with sources outside Wikipedia, that the article has been manipulated since 2014.
How does different edits occurring for different reasons make Russians travel back in time? Coming up with different reasons for different edits doesn't save the "Russians raised it ex post facto" argument in any way. And the adding of the original specs in 2004 was pretty obviously in order to improve the article since it didn't list any specifications before that. There was no "change" in 2004, there was the original adding of specs to the article.
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Last edited by caveman1917; 25th March 2018 at 04:47 AM.
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Old 25th March 2018, 05:24 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Yes, that’s what I was trying to get at, too.
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
But then all he’d have would be a claim, with sources outside Wikipedia, that the article has been manipulated since 2014.
Are you two talking about a reduced CT claiming that Russia didn't raise the ceiling ex post facto but that it did still "manipulate the article since 2014"? Because the "he" you refer to is ambiguous (does it refer to me or to the admin promoting the CT on wikipedia?). Anyway, several problems with the reduced CT as well:

1. All that the evidence (two newspaper articles at the top of the talk page) shows is that some people reverted the flight ceiling back to its original 10km figure and that at least some of those people are suspected of being Russian (as determined by IP location).

2. Russia never claimed that an Su-25 shot down MH-17, that was a (deliberate?) misquoting of the Russian press conference in Western media.[*] What the press conference said was that one of their radars had detected an unspecified plane close to MH-17 at the time of the crash, possibly an Su-25. They never said that it was an Su-25, let alone that it shot down MH-17, they just gave it as a possible example.

There's a much simpler explanation for the edit-war in July 2014 on the article's flight ceiling that doesn't involve a Russian conspiracy:

Suppose you're an Su-25 pilot and you see the media storm going on about how the Su-25 can only fly at 7km as shown by wikipedia. So you think to yourself: "What the **** dude, I flew one at 10km just last week!" So you go on wikipedia and try to revert the flight ceiling back to its original 10km figure. Once you've done that you see that the admins on the article call you "Putinbots" (the term for Russians at the time on Wikipedia, note the dehumanizing) and lock the article back to its lowered 7km ceiling. Apparently all being done because the article must reflect the lowered figure for reasons relating to MH-17.

It's funny to note the Russophobia in all this, as if being suspected of being Russian (by IP location) means anything in and of itself. Where else do these people think that Su-25 pilots/ground crew/engineers/etc live?

* ETA: you (plural) did check the original press conference before believing claims by other sources about what was being said in it, right? I mean, skepticism and all that...
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Last edited by caveman1917; 25th March 2018 at 06:35 AM.
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Old 25th March 2018, 07:04 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
What reason do you suggest for the "change in 2004"? What was the number before the change? Please share these possibilities that you've considered, and explain how they would refute my debunking of this particular CT.
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
How does different edits occurring for different reasons make Russians travel back in time? Coming up with different reasons for different edits doesn't save the "Russians raised it ex post facto" argument in any way. And the adding of the original specs in 2004 was pretty obviously in order to improve the article since it didn't list any specifications before that. There was no "change" in 2004, there was the original adding of specs to the article.
Ignore the above posts. In hindsight I had misinterpreted Mojo's "he" as referring to me rather than to the Wikipedia admin(s).
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Old 25th March 2018, 07:26 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Ignore the above posts. In hindsight I had misinterpreted Mojo's "he" as referring to me rather than to the Wikipedia admin(s).
Heh
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Old 25th March 2018, 11:16 AM   #56
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One of the removed talk page comments references the following from 2013:
Quote:
A.N. Sorochkin, V.V. Loginov, A.V. Elansky Analysis of ways to modernize the SU-25 attack aircraft to improve its operational characteristics // Aviation and space technology. - Kharkiv: National Aerospace University. NOT. Zhukovsky "Kharkiv Aviation Institute", 2013. -? 7 (104). - P. 53-60. - ISSN 1727-7337.
The pdf is here, and it lists service ceilings as:

Su-25: 7,000-10,000 (depends on modifications)
Su-25T: 10,000
Su-25UG: 10,000
Su-25SM: 10,000
Su-25TM: 10,000-12,000

The policy for removal of comments on the talk page seems to be 1) comments that reference sources from before the crash and 2) comments that reference authoritative statements (such as by the Chief Designer of the Su-25, or Air Regiment commanders, etc).
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Last edited by caveman1917; 25th March 2018 at 11:27 AM.
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Old 26th March 2018, 07:31 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
One of the removed talk page comments references the following from 2013:


The pdf is here, and it lists service ceilings as:

Su-25: 7,000-10,000 (depends on modifications)
Su-25T: 10,000
Su-25UG: 10,000
Su-25SM: 10,000
Su-25TM: 10,000-12,000

The policy for removal of comments on the talk page seems to be 1) comments that reference sources from before the crash and 2) comments that reference authoritative statements (such as by the Chief Designer of the Su-25, or Air Regiment commanders, etc).
Are there modifications that *lower* the plane's ceiling?
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Old 26th March 2018, 07:57 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Are there modifications that *lower* the plane's ceiling?
No, the earliest production runs had R-95 engines and an open cabin, with a loaded service ceiling of 7km (although they could fly higher but then got issues with life support). The improved R-195 engine was a secret project, so the export variant (Su-25K) was still produced with the old R-95 engines, whereas the domestic fleet had R-195 engines and (some) had their cabins sealed.

The modifications were made to the domestic fleet to *increase* the plane's ceiling, after experience with losses due to the appearance of capable shoulder-launched SAMs in the Afghan War. The only ones with a 7km ceiling are old export variants and perhaps some domestic ones from the earliest production runs which haven't been upgraded yet.
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Last edited by caveman1917; 26th March 2018 at 08:01 AM.
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Old 26th March 2018, 02:29 PM   #59
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Other then the obvious fact that you should take articles in an encyclopedia that Anybody could edit with a ton of salt, I don't see much point to this debate
Wikipedia is fun, but many of the articles need to be viewed very skeptically.
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Old 26th March 2018, 04:38 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Are there modifications that *lower* the plane's ceiling?
Well, strictly speaking there was one. The T-8-15[*] was retrofitted with the older R-95's to participate in an air show in France in 1989, since the R-195 was still secret at the time.

* T-8 was the development designation of the Su-25, it's unclear whether all Su-25's are numbered according to the T-8 designation or if this was just a particular testing/development plane.

ETA: the T-8 designations are only for prototypes, the enlisted (for lack of a better term) Su-25's aren't numbered that way.
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Last edited by caveman1917; 26th March 2018 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 9th April 2018, 07:22 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
My money is on that they'll stick to their "time traveling Russians did it" theory and the blocking and/or removing comments of anyone disputing, let alone debunking, it.
Called it.

It is notable that before re-asserting the CT (that the information was altered and falsified following MH-17 - still zilch evidence for any of it of course, and still just ignoring the time travel implications) one of the admins in question argues that the editor who added a link to an academic source (ie me) is a suspect for failing the nationality/ethnicity test of editors. This is of course an easily refuted lie (like almost all of their assertions) by simply running the IP address of the editor in question through something like this and noticing that it indeed shows no association with Russians.

I asked for a link to the policy clarifying the procedure for the systematic nationality/ethnicity tests of editors and the list of nationalities and ethnicities that are considered suspects. No answer was provided, but the admin in question then tried to placate me[*] by saying that I did indeed pass the test (it resulted in "Belgian"), but after reiterating my objection to the system of nationality/ethnicity testing in general and to his conspiracy theories I was quickly blocked anyway. It's of course well-known what happens to editors who do fail the required nationality/ethnicity tests, they are considered subhuman editors (some sort of automatons).

That the inner workings of the American Wikipedia would reflect American society is clear, but this level of rabid racism/nationalism (fascism even[*]) and general conspiracy lunacy is quite over the top even by American standards. I've never seen a policy of systematic nationality/ethnicity testing of editors on other wikipedia's.

* Note the placating tactic. "Yes, after rechecking your bloodline we agree that you are not Jewish. But you're not going to cause any trouble when we go after the real Jews, right?" And if you answer the wrong way to that question then you're simply done in for anyway, irrespective of what the results of your nationality/ethnicity test show.
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Last edited by caveman1917; 9th April 2018 at 07:26 AM.
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Old 10th April 2018, 05:33 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Jesus, man, it's Wikipedia, not the Warren Commission.
Close enough for most conspiracy theorists.
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Old 27th April 2018, 04:06 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
accusations of gaslighting with no evidence
Turns out there is some (weak) evidence of gaslighting after all.
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Old 24th May 2018, 03:42 AM   #64
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Where in Wikipedia should this go?

Investigators identify Russian military unit in downing of MH17
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Old 25th May 2018, 05:48 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Since when do mere facts do anything to change the 'minds' of the believers?
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Old 25th May 2018, 08:40 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Since when do mere facts do anything to change the 'minds' of the believers?
I suppose if you define presenting things you don't want to believe as 'gaslighting' you, and your own repeated attempts at casting uncertainty (could have been a Ukrainian fighter!!!) as not gaslighting, well, you can keep it up forever.
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Old 22nd July 2018, 06:35 PM   #67
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Wikipedia folks are already on the defensive because of very real Russian troll manipulation
Regarding your CT, as best as I can determine the last time this assertion of a group of nefarious government conspirators manipulating Wikipedia was considered, it was merely determined to be "perceived" because no diffs could be provided in its support:
Quote:
Much of the traffic on the list that is material to the case was members coordinating in order to protect each other and their point of view in articles against a perceived "Russian cabal".
Could you provide the diffs supporting your CT now?
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Old 23rd July 2018, 02:22 PM   #68
carlitos
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_brigades

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency
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Old 23rd July 2018, 07:04 PM   #69
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Yes I already know that LSSBB's CT has been promoted by certain groups of Wikipedia editors[*] for over 10 years now. Surely after an entire decade at least a single diff should've been found to support the CT. But apparently that's still not the case, so how many decades exactly are we supposed to wait until evidence will be forthcoming?

* Just looking at the latest 50 edits of your first link gives us Piotrus and Biophys/Biophys-enwiki/My Very Best Wishes from the EEML operation and Philip Cross from the Philip Cross operation.

ETA: the latest 50 edits of the talk page also gives us Radeksz/Volunteer Marek from the EEML operation.

Don't you find it interesting that the people who write those articles promoting those CT's still haven't managed to provide a single diff in support of them, yet there exist tons and tons of diffs supporting the notion that it is, indeed, they themselves who are engaged in exactly such things?
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"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

Last edited by caveman1917; 23rd July 2018 at 07:15 PM.
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Old 24th July 2018, 06:58 PM   #70
LSSBB
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https://gizmodo.com/a-tweetbot-caugh...h17-1607483459

Quote:
The original version of the Wikipedia article listing civil aviation accidents stated that MH17 had been shot down "by terrorists of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic with Buk system missiles, which the terrorists received from the Russian Federation." Emphasis added.

The edits originating from the government-owned computer changed the article to read "the plane [flight MH17] was shot down by Ukrainian soldiers". Again, emphasis added.
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Old 24th July 2018, 08:47 PM   #71
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I didn't know people who work in a governmental department, or in this case a public company, are not allowed to edit Wikipedia. Perhaps I should've made my request more clear: Provide a diff on the English language Wikipedia which actually shows evidence for your CT.

Funny how in the article on its US counterpart it is stated that "there's no assurance these edits are being made by Congressmen and not just bored secretaries" but in the Russian case it's considered, in and off itself, evidence for a group of nefarious government conspirators who are operating to manipulate Wikipedia.

Furthermore, if, as you insinuate, the purported conspirators are so incompetent as to not use basic measures such as proxy servers then all of their activities should be easily available from that Twitter account mentioned in the article. It seems then that the activity of the conspirators is limited to this single edit (judging by a quick look through that Twitter feed), which makes one wonder why, as you claim, editors on the English language Wikipedia would be "on the defensive" for a single edit on the Russian language Wikipedia.

Would you agree that, by your logic, the American counter-part Twitter account is evidence for a nefarious group of American government conspirators who are trying to manipulate the English language Wikipedia? If so, why aren't English language Wikipedia editors "on the defensive" against that group of conspirators instead, given that at least that group is actually editing the English language Wikipedia rather than just the Russian language one?

Have you considered that if such a group of government conspirators was involved in the activities you purport then they'd be competent enough to use a proxy server and their edits wouldn't appear to come from Russia, let alone from a government or public company computer? Remember: Just because you're hilariously incompetent doesn't mean everyone else is too.
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"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
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Old 25th July 2018, 11:47 AM   #72
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
That's my question. He seems to want people here to either defend a Wikipedia edit or share his outrage over a Wikipedia edit. I don't see why anybody would reasonably expect people here to do that.
Wikipedia is a lot of fun, but it often needs to be used with a ton of salt.
An "enclyclopedia that anybody can edit" is one whose accuracy and impartiality is always going to be questionable.
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