ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags alex jones , Deep State conspiracies , mike cernovich

Reply
Old 21st September 2017, 02:22 PM   #1
Travis
Misanthrope of the Mountains
 
Travis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 24,082
The Deep State and its real motives

Oh that whacky Deep State. It can be anything you hate whenever it wants. It can't defend itself because it either doesn't really exist or is out playing a friendly against the CFR with Rothschild serving as a referee. So why not also say that it is actually just about sex with children?

And, hey, while were at it why not prop up Putin as the hero that wants to bring it all down?

via RightWingWatch
Quote:
On yesterday’s episode of “The Alex Jones Show,” Cernovich accused liberal Hollywood actors of spreading conspiracy theories involving Russian president Vladimir Putin because Putin is opposed to pedophilia.
Cernovich speculated, “What I think is actually going on here is Putin is actually very anti-pedophile and has done a lot of things to fight the –“


Jones interrupted, “Oh no, that’s what it is. There’s a global anti-pedophile network. Now if you’re not for the pedophiles, you’re against them and that’s what it is. And anybody for the deep state is now a pedophile.”
Did you follow that through the Möbius strip of logic? All the Russia stuff is just a "conspiracy theory" and the real reason the Deep State hates Putin is because he is "very anti-pedophile" because reasons.

Now someone might think it is probably not a good idea for these two men to be so willing to throw around the pedophile accusation after they sorta accused a humble pizza joint of actually being the seventh seal to a Willy Wonka land of underage rape. An accusation that might have led to some unpleasantness. But people that would think they should probably not go down that road don't get just how awesome they think they are.

Quote:
“They’re fighting hard to shut us up because, why?” Cernovich asked. “What is the common theme, Alex?”
“We’re not pedophiles. We’re not psychopaths. We’re not in the psychopath club,” Jones replied.
“Yeah, if we quit talking about pedophiles and the pedophile rings then they would leave us alone,” Cernovich said. “That’s what this is really about.”
Yeah people. They are just fighting the good fight against imagined enemies. Who cares if there are real world consequences?

And that Deep State? Clearly it just wants to protect its crimes against these valiant heroes as they maybe will get a pizza joint that actually does do things wrong next time. Maybe. Next time.

And you might be wondering? Why isn't this in the Conspiracy section? Well, because what is the difference these days? The Deep State isn't something that only commenters on the net talk about. It is front line politics.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
Zingiber Officinale

Travis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2017, 02:26 PM   #2
Spindrift
Time Person of the Year, 2006
 
Spindrift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Right here!
Posts: 19,246
Quote:
“We’re not pedophiles. We’re not psychopaths. We’re not in the psychopath club,” Jones replied.
At best only one of those things is true, I'm pretty sure they have a club.
__________________
I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.
Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon
Spindrift is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2017, 02:54 PM   #3
Roger Ramjets
Illuminator
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,672
Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Why isn't this in the Conspiracy section? Well, because what is the difference these days? The Deep State isn't something that only commenters on the net talk about. It is front line politics.
rightwingwatch.org is 'front line politics'?

You're right of course. But the reason there's no difference is that now 'front line politics' is itself a conspiracy theory!
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2017, 04:23 PM   #4
Travis
Misanthrope of the Mountains
 
Travis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 24,082
https://wonkette.com/623230/mike-cer...you-are-nambla

Check out his tweets!
__________________
"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
Zingiber Officinale

Travis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2017, 04:36 PM   #5
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 27,647
Isn't there a whole Bubba thread on this?
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2017, 04:38 PM   #6
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,534
Aw, man, do they have to do this now? I've got a thing I wanna go to!
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2017, 04:38 PM   #7
Apathia
Philosopher
 
Apathia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 5,668
I was in the "Hippie Underworld."
__________________
"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections."
Justice William O. Douglas

"Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures."
Author Unknown
Apathia is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2017, 04:55 PM   #8
NoahFence
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 22,131
Man, I miss the NWO. And the illuminati before them.

So deep state is it now? Meh, it's an ok tag i guess.
NoahFence is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2017, 04:59 PM   #9
Travis
Misanthrope of the Mountains
 
Travis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 24,082
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Isn't there a whole Bubba thread on this?
Nah, that is about a huge vague underground pedophile ring. This is about a specific political entity that is trying to get revenge on Putin for being against child rape.

And I must say that I have heard a bunch about Putin but never anything about that.
__________________
"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
Zingiber Officinale

Travis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2017, 06:29 PM   #10
Darth Rotor
Salted Sith Cynic
 
Darth Rotor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 38,527
How is reference to the deep state not a topic for the conspiracy theory forums? You are in the wrong forum with this, Travis.
__________________
Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission.
"Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis
Darth Rotor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2017, 06:58 PM   #11
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 46,327
Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
How is reference to the deep state not a topic for the conspiracy theory forums?
Depends what you mean by the term. It doesn't have to involve any shadowy cabals. It's often used to simply mean the collective self-interest of government employees, divergent from the country at large and even the elected politicians they nominally obey. No conspiracy is necessary for that. In fact, it's an almost unavoidable agency problem.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2017, 08:17 PM   #12
Roger Ramjets
Illuminator
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,672
Deep state in the United States
Quote:
In the United States, the concept of a deep state is an entity which has been alleged to be involved in a coordinated effort by career government employees and others to influence state policy without regard for democratically elected leadership.

The term... has been used in American political science to refer to entrenched government institutions wielding power, without necessarily implying a conspiracy
If we actually had a democratically elected leadership this might apply, but... even if we did, the 'deep state' is not necessarily a bad ting. Voters are morons, and they elect morons to positions of power. Then those morons attempt to do stupid things that the 'deep state' naturally opposes.

So when we hear that Trump ordered a nuclear strike on North Korea, but for some reason the missiles never got launched, then we will know the Deep State really exists!
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2017, 11:54 PM   #13
Travis
Misanthrope of the Mountains
 
Travis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 24,082
Well it seems there are two different things here.

There is the fantasy "Deep State" where Obama and Soros are giving marching orders to civil servants who are then conspiring to stop the Trump agenda.

There is the real "deep state" which is civil servants just doing their damned job that happens to be at odds with the right wing nuttery.

But what interests me is that Jones and Cernovich are claiming a new hybrid. They don't seem to be invoking the first they seem, instead, to be claiming the latter version is acting to protect its own interest which happen to be pro-pedophila. And that is why there is an ongoing Trump investigation etc.
__________________
"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
Zingiber Officinale

Travis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 12:42 AM   #14
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Southern hemisphere
Posts: 7,293
Deep State is actually "Hi I'm Alan Jones and I say stupid weird **** to get your attention all the time. Buy my stuff! Send me money!"
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 04:02 AM   #15
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 46,327
Originally Posted by Travis View Post
There is the real "deep state" which is civil servants just doing their damned job that happens to be at odds with the right wing nuttery.
Of course. Because in a Democracy, the job of government is to ignore elections and the will of voters.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 04:30 AM   #16
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 89,583
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Of course. Because in a Democracy, the job of government is to ignore elections and the will of voters.
Well, sometimes it is.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 04:42 AM   #17
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 46,327
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Well, sometimes it is.
No. Sometimes (ie, when you lose an election), you WANT it to be.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 04:48 AM   #18
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 89,583
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. Sometimes (ie, when you lose an election), you WANT it to be.
You must have me confused with someone else. I didn't lose an election.

But in your haste to get your usual jab in, you missed the point: Government ignores the will of the people all the time, one way or another, and sometimes it's justified. I think protecting minorities from abuse is a good example of something congress or the supreme court should enforce even if there's a wave of racial violence in the general population. Wouldn't you agree?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 05:14 AM   #19
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 46,327
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You must have me confused with someone else. I didn't lose an election.

But in your haste to get your usual jab in, you missed the point: Government ignores the will of the people all the time, one way or another, and sometimes it's justified. I think protecting minorities from abuse is a good example of something congress or the supreme court should enforce even if there's a wave of racial violence in the general population. Wouldn't you agree?
And you missed the point: the deep state doesn't ignore the will of the voters because it has to uphold constitutional protections, it ignores the will of voters because it substitutes its own narrow interests for those of voters.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 05:15 AM   #20
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 89,583
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And you missed the point: the deep state doesn't ignore the will of the voters because it has to uphold constitutional protections, it ignores the will of voters because it substitutes its own narrow interests for those of voters.
No, that wasn't what you said. You said "government". Do you agree with what I said with regards to the government?

As for the so-called deep state, how do you know their motives?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 06:11 AM   #21
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 46,327
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
No, that wasn't what you said. You said "government". Do you agree with what I said with regards to the government?
Oh, for FSM sake. Yes, a constitutional government must protect rights, even against the wishes of the majority.

But we aren't talking about that, so drop it.

Quote:
As for the so-called deep state, how do you know their motives?
Because most people are motivated by self-interest. Is that seriously a mystery to you?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 06:22 AM   #22
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 89,583
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Oh, for FSM sake. Yes, a constitutional government must protect rights, even against the wishes of the majority.

But we aren't talking about that, so drop it.
Zig, I didn't mean to be confrontational. You DID say "government" so I thought you were talking about that!

Quote:
Because most people are motivated by self-interest.
If that's on general principle, why mention it as if it's a feature of the deep state that's different than elected officials, who presumably also put their own interests above those of the electorate?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 06:47 AM   #23
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 46,327
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
If that's on general principle, why mention it as if it's a feature of the deep state that's different than elected officials, who presumably also put their own interests above those of the electorate?
Because elections help align the interests of elected politicians with those of the electorate. But there isn't a similarly effective mechanism to align the interests of unelected bureaucrats with the electorate.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 06:50 AM   #24
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 89,583
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Because elections help align the interests of elected politicians with those of the electorate. But there isn't a similarly effective mechanism to align the interests of unelected bureaucrats with the electorate.
Sure, ok. But you've always had appointed members of the machine, such as (in some countries) senators, supreme court justices, and the like. I'm sure you'll agree that they can't all be elected, but somehow they're expected to do their jobs.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 07:10 AM   #25
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 46,327
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Sure, ok. But you've always had appointed members of the machine, such as (in some countries) senators, supreme court justices, and the like. I'm sure you'll agree that they can't all be elected, but somehow they're expected to do their jobs.
Which is why I said,
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
In fact, it's an almost unavoidable agency problem.
We cannot eliminate the problem. But we can, and should, reduce it.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 07:13 AM   #26
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 89,583
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Which is why I said,


We cannot eliminate the problem. But we can, and should, reduce it.
Ok but how do you propose we do that? Elect judges and other government employes? Or just reduce the size of the state? What would be your take on this?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 07:45 AM   #27
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 46,327
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Ok but how do you propose we do that? Elect judges and other government employes? Or just reduce the size of the state? What would be your take on this?
Plenty of judges are elected. But no, I'm not suggesting making every government job an elected one. Even as a purely practical matter, it's not feasible.

Reducing the size of the state is absolutely one way to help. The smaller the role of government, the less any problems with government matter. Getting rid of public sector unions is another (even that liberal saint FDR recognized the threat they represented), which we could do without shrinking government. And making it easier to fire government employees is another (see the whole VA fiasco).
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 08:19 AM   #28
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,534
"Deep state" is a conspiracy nutjob term, by and for conspiracy nutjobs. Stop trying to normalize it by assigning spurious mundane meanings. Alex Jones isn't talking about an agency problem in which long-term inertia and employees' interpretation of their job is suddenly called into conflict by the election of a radical. There's already a perfectly adequate term for that: "bureaucracy." Literally, "rule by the office."

No, by "deep state" Alex Jones means a secret cabal of pedophiles who control the media and apparently direct all anti-Russian sentiment. Those are very different things.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 08:23 AM   #29
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 89,583
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Plenty of judges are elected. But no, I'm not suggesting making every government job an elected one. Even as a purely practical matter, it's not feasible.

Reducing the size of the state is absolutely one way to help. The smaller the role of government, the less any problems with government matter. Getting rid of public sector unions is another (even that liberal saint FDR recognized the threat they represented), which we could do without shrinking government. And making it easier to fire government employees is another (see the whole VA fiasco).
This has been a way-too pleasant conversation, Zig. We gotta make up for it, next time.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 08:28 AM   #30
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 46,327
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
"Deep state" is a conspiracy nutjob term, by and for conspiracy nutjobs. Stop trying to normalize it by assigning spurious mundane meanings. Alex Jones isn't talking about an agency problem in which long-term inertia and employees' interpretation of their job is suddenly called into conflict by the election of a radical. There's already a perfectly adequate term for that: "bureaucracy." Literally, "rule by the office."
Alex Jones didn't coin the term. And as Michael Bolton said in Office Space regarding his name matching the singer, "Why should I change, he's the one who sucks." The fact that Jones is abusing the term doesn't mean I don't get to use it rationally.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 08:29 AM   #31
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 46,327
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
This has been a way-too pleasant conversation, Zig. We gotta make up for it, next time.
I'm sure we will.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 08:44 AM   #32
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,534
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Alex Jones didn't coin the term. And as Michael Bolton said in Office Space regarding his name matching the singer, "Why should I change, he's the one who sucks." The fact that Jones is abusing the term doesn't mean I don't get to use it rationally.
Alex Jones didn't coin it, but he's using it correctly. It's always meant a secret shadow government.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep..._United_States

The pedophile thing is new, though.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 01:30 PM   #33
Travis
Misanthrope of the Mountains
 
Travis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 24,082
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Because elections help align the interests of elected politicians with those of the electorate. But there isn't a similarly effective mechanism to align the interests of unelected bureaucrats with the electorate.
You think it is a bad thing for bureaucrats to push back against radicals?

I suspect if a true leftist radical was elected pushing for the elimination of private property (and such) you would be hoping the agencies would be pushing back.
__________________
"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
Zingiber Officinale

Travis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 04:10 PM   #34
Darth Rotor
Salted Sith Cynic
 
Darth Rotor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 38,527
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Because elections help align the interests of elected politicians with those of the electorate. But there isn't a similarly effective mechanism to align the interests of unelected bureaucrats with the electorate.
Congressional oversight is the mechanism. Having been for a small part of my life an un-elected member of the executive branch (commissioned officer in the Navy) I was for a few years in an office that did one dozen formal responses to Congressional Inquires that began when someone wrote to their congressman that "X" was wrong or "X" was unfair.

Every so often, you'll find that the Congressional inquiry discovers a wrong being done, and corrected, and other times you'll find that the inquiry discovers that the unelected are in fact doing their jobs by the congressionally approved regulation / law.

How well that functions at the state level I won't try to comment upon, as I do not have detailed experience with that.

I stand by my initial response that the Deep State topic that Travis has broached belongs in the CT forum.
__________________
Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission.
"Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis
Darth Rotor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2017, 10:25 AM   #35
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 17,637
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Alex Jones didn't coin the term. And as Michael Bolton said in Office Space regarding his name matching the singer, "Why should I change, he's the one who sucks." The fact that Jones is abusing the term doesn't mean I don't get to use it rationally.
But it does mean that folks who know about Alex's version of the term will start to wonder if you're a kook. I assume I understand what you mean by the term; the deep state is the entrenched bureaucracy that resists change. It's not some organized conspiracy, but rather the effect of thousands and thousands of individual bureaucrats protecting (and enlarging) their turf.

But Alex's meaning is a whole lot darker; the Deep State is a coordinated effort with the New World Order pulling the strings to defend and expand their evil agenda. It's crazy, but it's a whole lot more interesting than reality.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2017, 02:09 PM   #36
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 20,519
Quote:
“They’re fighting hard to shut us up because, why?” Cernovich asked. “What is the common theme, Alex?”
“We’re not pedophiles."
For some reason this just keeps getting played out as a round of Jeopardy! in my head:

Final Jeopardy Category: Movies

Answer: Archibald Leach, Bernard Schwartz and Lucille LeSueur

Question: Who are three people who are not pedophiles?

I'm sorry Cliff, that's not the question we were looking for.

Be that as it may Alex, those people are not pedophiles.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2017, 02:28 PM   #37
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 27,647
I actually know who two of those three are. Had to look up Lucille.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2017, 09:31 PM   #38
Toontown
Philosopher
 
Toontown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,595
It is my contention that a "deep state" cannot logically exist. Here is my primary prohibitive observational evidence. Where am I going wrong?

1. A deep state would simply eliminate or silence people like Alex Jones.

2. Clinton and Trump were the two contenders for president. At least one of them would have to be the deep state choice, assuming the existence of a deep state. Are we to believe that's the best a deep state could come up with?? A short, bitchy old lady and/or an unstable geriatric narcissist? One of them?? Really? Then how in monkey hell did this obviously incompetent deep state manage to take over the world's most powerful country?

See? The "deep state" is logically impossible. Glaringly obviously impossible.

Unless the "deep state" is nothing more than a mindless conglomeration of random power grubbers who have managed to worm their way into positions of power, mostly by a combination of obsessive persistence aided by blind, staggering luck. In which case "deep state" is a misnomer.
__________________
"I did not say that!" - Donald Trump

Last edited by Toontown; 26th September 2017 at 09:34 PM.
Toontown is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th September 2017, 12:43 AM   #39
Roger Ramjets
Illuminator
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,672
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
the deep state doesn't ignore the will of the voters because it has to uphold constitutional protections, it ignores the will of voters because it substitutes its own narrow interests for those of voters.
But what if the Deep State manages to trick most voters into believing that its interests are their interests (eg. fewer financial regulations, tax cuts for the rich, more prisons, stronger military)? Then the only ones who are aware that their interests are being substituted are those who aren't sheeple drinking the kool-aid, ie. conspiracy nuts.

Originally Posted by Brainster
But Alex's meaning is a whole lot darker; the Deep State is a coordinated effort with the New World Order pulling the strings to defend and expand their evil agenda.
His ideas about who they are and what their agenda is may be crazy, but the idea of a 'coordinated effort with the New World Order pulling the strings' may not be. Individuals might just be protecting and enlarging their own turf, but they could still share common goals that encourage them to coordinate their efforts.

Originally Posted by Travis
There is the fantasy "Deep State" where Obama and Soros are giving marching orders to civil servants who are then conspiring to stop the Trump agenda.
For sure this is a fantasy, but the idea that wealthy individuals are working with politicians 'behind the scenes' to give 'marching orders' to civil servants is not. The real Deep State is not actually the State at all - it is private citizens worming their their way into positions of power via lobbying or elections, then forcing civil servants to enact their toxic agendas. Trump and his cronies are the Deep State!
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th September 2017, 04:37 AM   #40
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 49,039
Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
How is reference to the deep state not a topic for the conspiracy theory forums? You are in the wrong forum with this, Travis.
It is like with Pizza gate, sure it is a conspiracy theory but when it is endorsed by major political figures like the national security adviser it becomes main stream politics as well.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/1...a-trump-232227
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:34 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.