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Old 5th April 2020, 07:19 AM   #561
ChrisBFRPKY
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Are ghosts subject to "Stay at Home" orders? If not it seems like they could be a Covid-19 transmission risk if haunting multiple households.

Chris B.
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Old 5th April 2020, 07:20 AM   #562
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TL/DR: Next time you find a ghost story and wonder if this time it's for real, no, it isn't.
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Old 5th April 2020, 11:40 AM   #563
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AmyW - I was at a talk by the author a couple of months back and recommend her book. It describes various forms of therapy and has a practitioner and a patient talk about how it's supposed to work and how if affected them respectively.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Talk-Yourse.../dp/1472141334
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Old 5th April 2020, 01:00 PM   #564
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Originally Posted by Athyrio View Post
Not seeing a "ghost:" but experiencing a ghostly encounter. I say the word ghostly because I do not know another term to explain it.
Okay, I think I understand.

There are a few atmospheric conditions which can cause hallucinations which are unrelated to mental health. CO2 poisoning is a big one, and infrasound, and unshielded electronics (bad wiring, old CRT's) can contribute to visions of phantoms, or shadows. These are often the primary drivers for someone seeing a ghost.

A ghostly encounter, if I understand you correctly, is based on situational perception. This is more psychology than neurochemistry. The best examples come from police officers called into situation where security alarms have been triggered yet the building is secured, and even after the alarm company sends a technician to inspect the system the alarm continues to be tripped. Usually between the third or fourth time being dispatched to the location one or more of the officers becomes jumpy, and sees a shadow in a window. After a search of the location comes up empty the officers go from jumpy to spooked, and from there on the location gets a reputation for being haunted.

Another example is a person hearing someone come into a familiar space such as a home, office, or place of employment only to discover that they are alone, and no one has entered the location. This is a case of the brain putting sounds together to paint a familiar picture in a person's head when the sounds are actually unrelated to a door opening or closing, or footsteps, or whatever other noises are common. This kind of event is what forced me to re-think my belief in ghosts because the most common ghostly experience is that where the ghost is of someone who is still alive. Many people have been at home working on a project or watching TV and heard a family member in another part of the house only to later learn that family member was not there. Most folks rightly blow it off to a brain fart but there have been a few nasty arguments where one is accused of lying.

Part of my job is monitoring security cameras and I've learned that concentration is conditional, and that people move faster than you think they can. I think back on all the stories I was told about a man being seen in a location only to vanish a few seconds later while supposedly in a wide open area where leaving it unseen in a short amount of time was "impossible". I now have the luxury of video playback. Those cases where someone seemed to vanish were actually a case of a guy walking fast and me walking slow. Playback confirms that what I see the first time live on screen isn't always what happened when I review the footage later.

Not sure if this helped or not.
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Old 5th April 2020, 02:48 PM   #565
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Okay, I think I understand.

There are a few atmospheric conditions which can cause hallucinations which are unrelated to mental health. CO2 poisoning is a big one, and infrasound, and unshielded electronics (bad wiring, old CRT's) can contribute to visions of phantoms, or shadows. These are often the primary drivers for someone seeing a ghost.

A ghostly encounter, if I understand you correctly, is based on situational perception. This is more psychology than neurochemistry. The best examples come from police officers called into situation where security alarms have been triggered yet the building is secured, and even after the alarm company sends a technician to inspect the system the alarm continues to be tripped. Usually between the third or fourth time being dispatched to the location one or more of the officers becomes jumpy, and sees a shadow in a window. After a search of the location comes up empty the officers go from jumpy to spooked, and from there on the location gets a reputation for being haunted.

Another example is a person hearing someone come into a familiar space such as a home, office, or place of employment only to discover that they are alone, and no one has entered the location. This is a case of the brain putting sounds together to paint a familiar picture in a person's head when the sounds are actually unrelated to a door opening or closing, or footsteps, or whatever other noises are common. This kind of event is what forced me to re-think my belief in ghosts because the most common ghostly experience is that where the ghost is of someone who is still alive. Many people have been at home working on a project or watching TV and heard a family member in another part of the house only to later learn that family member was not there. Most folks rightly blow it off to a brain fart but there have been a few nasty arguments where one is accused of lying.

Part of my job is monitoring security cameras and I've learned that concentration is conditional, and that people move faster than you think they can. I think back on all the stories I was told about a man being seen in a location only to vanish a few seconds later while supposedly in a wide open area where leaving it unseen in a short amount of time was "impossible". I now have the luxury of video playback. Those cases where someone seemed to vanish were actually a case of a guy walking fast and me walking slow. Playback confirms that what I see the first time live on screen isn't always what happened when I review the footage later.

Not sure if this helped or not.

Yes. There is a difference in a person claiming to have actually seen or to have visualized a ghost or apparition of some type and a person who describes a situation that is inexplicable to them and their mindset has convinced them that the situation had to have been caused by a supernatural event.

In my youth, that was the mistake I made - interpreting the event myself. My wife does believe in ghosts - I do not any more, but I will say this with no shame. There have been several events that have occurred in the past 4 years that we have been together that neither of us can rationally explain, and added to that, a couple of them happened shortly after the deaths of 2 significant people in our lives. That timing only made her beliefs stronger. Because of that, my wife has the upper hand when we choose to share those stories. I did not "see" a ghost - I simply cannot come up with an explanation for what happened that makes any sense.
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Old 5th April 2020, 03:20 PM   #566
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Are ghosts subject to "Stay at Home" orders? If not it seems like they could be a Covid-19 transmission risk if haunting multiple households.

Chris B.
Aliens stopped making crop circles during the foot and mouth outbreak 10 years ago, so I don’t see why other imaginary entities shouldn’t obey arbitrary human legislation.
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Old 5th April 2020, 04:04 PM   #567
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Are ghosts subject to "Stay at Home" orders? If not it seems like they could be a Covid-19 transmission risk if haunting multiple households.

Chris B.
The one thing we can count on is a rise in spiritualism in places hard-hit by COVID-19 where ghosts are a tradition. I expect a flood of Italian COVID-19 ghost stories over the next five years.
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Old 6th April 2020, 11:31 AM   #568
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Are you suggesting GLAARGing?
I'm all for it!
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Old 6th April 2020, 11:35 AM   #569
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
But we're not discussing this in a general sense: we're talking specifically about AmyW.
AmyW claims her belief in ghosts and spirits causes/caused 'high anxiety', 'confusion' and made her 'freak out'.
This is not the reaction of someone enjoying a spinechiller, so I think the point still stands: if you really feel this way, you wouldn't deliberately seek out more of the same. Over and over again.
IMO, it's human nature to seek out things that either disgust or terrify us. A kid round my way crashed his motorbike into a passing car just before Christmas, offing himself in the process, and the scene certainly wasn't short of spectators, I was one of them!

Likewise, people who don't much like Horror movies will often return to the genre to freak themselves out, it gives them a cheap thrill.

I can't say I find Amy's comments strange, naive, maybe, but not strange.
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Old 6th April 2020, 11:39 AM   #570
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Things you should be afraid of right now:

Getting sick.
Not being able to pay your bills.
Someone you love getting sick.

*spiders are optional.

It's like going swimming in Loch Ness. You should be afraid of:

Hypothermia
Drowning

*eels are optional

Hiking in the Pacific North West one should be afraid of:

Ticks.
Getting lost.
Dehydration.
Blisters on your feet.

*bears are optional.
This doesn't acknowledge the age-old fear, however one feels about it, of the unknown.

It may be irrational to not fancy jumping into the black waters of Loch Ness, but it's a perfectly natural fear to have. The same applies to the woods.
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Old 6th April 2020, 11:43 AM   #571
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Originally Posted by Athyrio View Post
Does anyone see a difference between ghosts and ghostly experiences?
A person who claims to see a ghost is either lying, or they literally saw something and have decided upon it being a "ghost."

A "ghostly experience,"IMO, is a more varied list of possibilities, the feeling of being watched, misplacing something around the house, hearing a noise, etc.
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Old 6th April 2020, 11:48 AM   #572
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Originally Posted by AmyW View Post
Why do ghost stories exist and why do idiots like myself believe them?
That's a very long discussion, tbh!

I don't think anyone is idiotic for believing in ghosts, it's hardly something a select few people believe, it's something many generations of people have believed. I don't believe people who subscribe to religion are idiots, either.

If you're killing in the name of religion, however, or in the name of the supernatural, then yeah, you might well be mental!
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Old 6th April 2020, 04:52 PM   #573
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
This doesn't acknowledge the age-old fear, however one feels about it, of the unknown.

It may be irrational to not fancy jumping into the black waters of Loch Ness, but it's a perfectly natural fear to have. The same applies to the woods.
In both cases the known threats should out-weigh the unknown:

http://www.lochnessswim.com/

https://www.fs.usda.gov/recarea/mtho...a/?recid=79439
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Old 6th April 2020, 05:32 PM   #574
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
IMO, it's human nature to seek out things that either disgust or terrify us. A kid round my way crashed his motorbike into a passing car just before Christmas, offing himself in the process, and the scene certainly wasn't short of spectators, I was one of them!

Likewise, people who don't much like Horror movies will often return to the genre to freak themselves out, it gives them a cheap thrill.

I can't say I find Amy's comments strange, naive, maybe, but not strange.
I would also like to add that Amy is receiving treatment for Obsessive Compusive Disorder, which can exacerbate situations like this, and make it easier to say things like "okay, so this example has been debunked, but what about this example? And this one?"

While intellectually Amy probably realises that they ought to be able to generalise previous explanations to new examples, their brain still jumps to those nagging doubts, and there's not a lot they can do about that.

So let's not be too hard on someone who is struggling with mental illness, okay? Okay.
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Old 9th April 2020, 10:04 PM   #575
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Originally Posted by AmyW View Post
Why do ghost stories exist and why do idiots like myself believe them?
Ghost stories exist for the same reason that stories about unicorns, leprechauns and fairies etc exist. We, as a species, have a tendency to explain things by inventing fictional explanations. In the case of ghosts there is the added belief held by many, of life existing beyond death in some form or other.
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Old 18th April 2020, 07:46 AM   #576
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
In both cases the known threats should out-weigh the unknown:

http://www.lochnessswim.com/

https://www.fs.usda.gov/recarea/mtho...a/?recid=79439
Of course, they should, but they seldom do.

Humans often worry about the most ridiculous things. Just look at the state of the world at the minute, and people are worrying about 5G phone masts, lol. They'll flock to the shop 5 days a week for non-essentials, but they won't go near a 5G mast, lest they be struck down by a powerful dose of radioactive cancer juice!

People are generally thick as pig excrement, so what they should and shouldn't do are seldom textbook decisions.
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Old 18th April 2020, 07:51 AM   #577
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I would also like to add that Amy is receiving treatment for Obsessive Compusive Disorder, which can exacerbate situations like this, and make it easier to say things like "okay, so this example has been debunked, but what about this example? And this one?"

While intellectually Amy probably realises that they ought to be able to generalise previous explanations to new examples, their brain still jumps to those nagging doubts, and there's not a lot they can do about that.

So let's not be too hard on someone who is struggling with mental illness, okay? Okay.
I tend to agree.

I understand some people have a limited willingness to tolerate people asking questions that one might find silly, but if I don't think the person's intentionally trolling, I'm fine with taking the time to have a discussion, no matter how many times aspects of said discussion have to be debunked or explained.

As I've said before, this is literally how the Bigfoot threads work and have worked for years, except there's no longer anyone supporting Bigfoot's existence, so it's just an echo chamber of scepticism now, whereas many-a-day were once spent having to repeatedly explain to people why Bigfoot obviously doesn't exist... And nobody complained.

This is what this section of this forum is all about, after all...
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Old 18th April 2020, 07:58 AM   #578
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Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
Ghost stories exist for the same reason that stories about unicorns, leprechauns and fairies etc exist. We, as a species, have a tendency to explain things by inventing fictional explanations. In the case of ghosts there is the added belief held by many, of life existing beyond death in some form or other.
I don't think ghosts, or any myriad of mythical creatures, can be explained as simply as that, personally.

I don't think we invented these things just to explain away the weird, not necessarily. There's many reasons for why we tell stories and create myths, it's just part of our nature.

We've not really changed much when it comes to being a race of myth-makers and story-tellers, it's just that the Werewolves are replaced with evil Muslims, ghosts are replaced with corrupt politicians, we pass around conspiracies like kids used to pass around tales of "Bloody Mary", 5G masts are the latest haunted house on the corner of the street, lol.

Our fears change and adapt over time, but they're generally not far from the basic fears that humanity has always had.
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Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
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Old 18th April 2020, 09:08 AM   #579
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Of course, they should, but they seldom do.

Humans often worry about the most ridiculous things. Just look at the state of the world at the minute, and people are worrying about 5G phone masts, lol. They'll flock to the shop 5 days a week for non-essentials, but they won't go near a 5G mast, lest they be struck down by a powerful dose of radioactive cancer juice!

People are generally thick as pig excrement, so what they should and shouldn't do are seldom textbook decisions.

Unless you advertise the “5G waves” as reducing the appearance of fine wrinkles* and then a certain schizophrenic group of consumers will flock to them.



*according to one person out of the hundred people we randomly asked.
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Old 18th April 2020, 09:54 AM   #580
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Darat, who is the "we" in your statement above?
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Old 18th April 2020, 10:11 AM   #581
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Unless you advertise the “5G waves” as reducing the appearance of fine wrinkles* and then a certain schizophrenic group of consumers will flock to them.



*according to one person out of the hundred people we randomly asked.
I don't even think they'd need to be schizophrenic in order to believe that, lol. I imagine some of them would do it if Eamon Holmes merely hinted at it!

Originally Posted by xterra View Post
Darat, who is the "we" in your statement above?
The Family Fortunes studio audience, of course.

Our survey says...!
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Old 18th April 2020, 10:35 AM   #582
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Why "of course"? I have never heard of Family Fortunes.

Was Darat involved in that show?
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Old 18th April 2020, 11:54 AM   #583
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
Darat, who is the "we" in your statement above?

The skin care companies. It’s a bit of silliness. I’ve noticed a certain type of person, probably the best representative is that Paltrow with her steaming vaginas, all for the organic, the natural until it comes to their skin and wrinkles then they want THE SCIENCE.
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Old 18th April 2020, 12:59 PM   #584
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The skin care companies. It’s a bit of silliness. I’ve noticed a certain type of person, probably the best representative is that Paltrow with her steaming vaginas, all for the organic, the natural until it comes to their skin and wrinkles then they want THE SCIENCE.
Thank you so much for the nightmare fuel image of Paltrow and her steaming vaginas. Vaginas.. Plural!!! And they're steaming!!!!

AAAARRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!


[Sound of diving through window]
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Old 18th April 2020, 10:22 PM   #585
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
I don't think ghosts, or any myriad of mythical creatures, can be explained as simply as that, personally.

I don't think we invented these things just to explain away the weird, not necessarily. There's many reasons for why we tell stories and create myths, it's just part of our nature.
No, not just that. But, as you seem to agree: “as a species, have a natural tendency to explain things by inventing fictional explanations”.

Quote:
We've not really changed much when it comes to being a race of myth-makers and story-tellers, it's just that the Werewolves are replaced with evil Muslims, ghosts are replaced with corrupt politicians, we pass around conspiracies like kids used to pass around tales of "Bloody Mary", 5G masts are the latest haunted house on the corner of the street, lol.
Well, we’ve not so much replaced them – we still have an overabundance of werewolves and ghosts on TV etc. – we’ve just added to them. Because, even too much evil is never enough.

Quote:
Our fears change and adapt over time, but they're generally not far from the basic fears that humanity has always had.
We always seem to need enemies – fictional and real.
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Old 20th April 2020, 12:01 AM   #586
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
[Sound of diving through window]
[Wilhelm scream]
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Old 12th May 2020, 05:19 PM   #587
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Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
No, not just that. But, as you seem to agree: “as a species, have a natural tendency to explain things by inventing fictional explanations”.



Well, we’ve not so much replaced them – we still have an overabundance of werewolves and ghosts on TV etc. – we’ve just added to them. Because, even too much evil is never enough.



We always seem to need enemies – fictional and real.
I don't know, I think Bigfoot and the Werewolves' time on TV is coming to an end as well, tbh. Save for the odd bit of twonk telly on the History channel or something, those shows have taken a complete nosedive. These myths still exist in the world, but not like they did, certainly not in the western world, we've replaced some of those arcane devils with newer ones, and conspiracies seem to be the devils of choice nowadays for many people. 5G phone masts are rap-rap-rapping on chamber doors.

Who doesn't love a good enemy, though? lol.
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Old 14th May 2020, 12:09 PM   #588
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I never just happen to have a ghost story cross my path while I'm actually looking for something else or not looking for anything. The reason is that I have no history of having ever sought them out or clicked on them before, and online media give you suggestions based on what you've done online before.

If you really don't want to see more ghost stuff, simply unsubscribing from any related subscriptions and not clicking on those suggestions for long enough will convince the algorithms that you're not into that stuff anymore and they'll give up on suggesting it to you. It takes time but it works.

If that's not a sharp enough break for you, you can start over with a clean new online history by dropping your old accounts & creating new ones, possibly including on your own computer (or get a new computer). Also, although keeping your previous human contacts is fine, don't resubscribe to your old ghosty subscriptions. With no ghosty history to your new online identity, the algorithms will have no reason to try throwing ghosty links your way.
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Old 15th May 2020, 02:28 AM   #589
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That is giving Google's algorithms a frankly wishful-thinking amount of credit. Presumably based on not understanding that it just matches keywords and text pieces, rather than actually understanding what the video is about.

Point in case, my clicking on some lefty-stuff videos back in the day -- you know, feminist stuff, social issues, that kinda thing -- also made it quite persistent in recommending douchenozzles like Sargon Of Akkad. Because apparently, hey, he's flagged his stuff with those keywords too, so that must mean I'm interested, right?

It got better recently when they seem to have weighted the author more, but I click recently on a video which happens to mention him as someone promoting a wrong opinion, and guess who gets recommended to me again? Yep, Sargon Of Akkad. Because apparently for Google he's like Candyman: someone says his name three times, and he's there

Similarly, clicking on atheism related videos quite often produces recommendations in which some outright lunatic thinks he's totally defeated atheists, even if he has to preemptively proclaim it himself, by repeating the same nonsense I've heard a million times before. And of course he tagged it as "atheism", because why wouldn't every atheist need to see his magnum opus?

Again, this has gotten better lately, but it still happens.

I have no reason to assume that only for ghosts it would totally work differently.
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Old 15th May 2020, 05:54 AM   #590
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Old 15th May 2020, 03:48 PM   #591
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
it just matches keywords and text pieces, rather than actually understanding what the video is about.

Point in case, my clicking on some lefty-stuff videos back in the day... made it quite persistent in recommending douchenozzles like Sargon Of Akkad...

Similarly, clicking on atheism related videos quite often produces recommendations in which some outright lunatic thinks he's totally defeated atheists...

I have no reason to assume that only for ghosts it would totally work differently.
I wasn't talking about how to pick one side of a topic and only get recommended that side. I was talking about not engaging with any part of the subject from any angle. She doesn't need to see a bunch of "ghosts aren't real" stuff while avoiding the "ghosts are real" stuff. She just needs not to keep seeing any stuff about ghosts at all.

She's depicted just casually running into more & more of this stuff all the time as automatic or unavoidable with no action taken on her part to cause it, but it isn't. If it were, I'd be getting sent the same stuff, and I'm not, because I've never done anything to draw such materials toward me. It doesn't even call for active avoidance measures like blocking (although some media sites do have that option as well). All it takes is not taking actions that explicitly tell the internet she does want this stuff, such as clicking on the links to it when they're offered (for long enough, to give the process time to make sure she means it... or a clean break from her old internet history if that takes too long for her).

(Also, even on the subject of wanting one side of a subject instead of both or neither, even though that's supposedly not the situation we're talking about in this thread: you must be sometimes clicking on the links from the wrong side, because I don't and I don't get those. I have in the past, but just actually never clicking the wrong stuff for long enough trained the algorithms my way.)
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Old 16th May 2020, 08:05 AM   #592
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Re the thread title: Ghosts do not need to be explained. Quite the opposite. Ghosts are entirely an explanation, used by rather ignorant people as the explanation for natural phenomena that they do not understand. What needs to be explained is the natural phenomena that those people attribute to ghosts.
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Old 17th May 2020, 06:52 AM   #593
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I dunno, but personally, I find that the average person is less and less inclined to bring the subject of ghosts up anymore, and most people don't outright believe in them like they once did. Maybe it's just me, I don't know, but having worked in all kinds of places over there years doing security, I used to have at least one person talk to me about ghosts, or about an old story of a ghost supposedly haunting some place or other.

Barely anyone seems to bother these days, might be a generational thing.
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Old 17th May 2020, 05:59 PM   #594
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Must be a thing where you live. In my neck of the woods ghosts are freely discussed by a cross-section of society that one wouldn't expect.
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Old 17th May 2020, 06:06 PM   #595
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I don't hear people taking about ghosts or ufos much, but people are talking about alt-med and conspiracies.

Especially alt-med.
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Old 18th May 2020, 01:01 AM   #596
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To 'explain' something, implies that the something is a phenomenon. Ghosts are not a phenomenon, but just a definition.

So, there is nothing to explain.
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Old 18th May 2020, 05:51 AM   #597
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Must be a thing where you live. In my neck of the woods ghosts are freely discussed by a cross-section of society that one wouldn't expect.
It might be, although I suspect it's happening in a lot of places, where ghosts are just naturally being replaced with more modern concerns. I don't think the younger generations are all that interested, although some of them are definite flat-earthers, moon-landing doubters and all-round conspiracy nuts in general.

Ghosts, in a lot of places, just seem like old news, IMO.
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Old 18th May 2020, 05:54 AM   #598
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I don't hear people taking about ghosts or ufos much, but people are talking about alt-med and conspiracies.

Especially alt-med.
I tend to agree, although I have had a few people talking to me about aliens and UFO's over the past couple of years. A couple of people have even claimed that they might as well believe in UFO's, as there's more evidence for them than there is for God, which, for me, is honestly a sentence that I can't make sense of no matter how many angles I attack it at, lol.
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Old 18th May 2020, 05:56 AM   #599
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Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi View Post
To 'explain' something, implies that the something is a phenomenon. Ghosts are not a phenomenon, but just a definition.

So, there is nothing to explain.
You could look at it that way, although I do think that there is an explanation, or, explanations, for why we endure these stories, and why we create them, why we pass them on, etc. Folklore, IMO. Modern folklore seems to be more based around conspiracies than wailing women in white or hairy man-beasts stalking the local woodland.
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Old 18th May 2020, 06:30 AM   #600
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Re the thread title: Ghosts do not need to be explained. Quite the opposite. Ghosts are entirely an explanation, used by rather ignorant people as the explanation for natural phenomena that they do not understand. What needs to be explained is the natural phenomena that those people attribute to ghosts.
Yep.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post13024145
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