ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 12th January 2020, 09:36 AM   #641
yankee451
Master Poster
 
yankee451's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,765
Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
another lie, you don't have a clue you are spreading lies

us? This is a skeptic forum, found on research and education, you are spreading woo, and you have no clue
Based on years of research I am simply explaining why I am skeptical about the veracity of the official story. By definition, this is the place to be. Thanks for your time.
yankee451 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 09:40 AM   #642
yankee451
Master Poster
 
yankee451's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,765
Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
No I only have to show that penitration of the weak steel by the much stronger steel alloy is more likely than your absurd theory. It's your theory and it is Falsified by your own evidence itself.
But that's not true, is it? If that was the case then the official story organs like Purdue, MIT, NIST, FEMA, et al, wouldn't have thrown in the towel on accurately calculating the interaction between the wings and the much more dense, much more massive, far less brittle, steel columns.




But the actual damage shows a lateral impact, not head on.

yankee451 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 10:06 AM   #643
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,398
Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
Newton's laws support the conclusion that the lightly damaged aluminum sheeting visible at the far left side of both holes, was caused by something much less dense and much smaller than what sharply bent steel columns to the right.
You mean like carbon fiber wingtips?
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 10:13 AM   #644
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,398
Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
But that's not true, is it? If that was the case then the official story organs like Purdue, MIT, NIST, FEMA, et al, wouldn't have thrown in the towel on accurately calculating the interaction between the wings and the much more dense, much more massive, far less brittle, steel columns.


https://911crashtest.org/wp-content/...1-48-16-PM.png

But the actual damage shows a lateral impact, not head on.

http://yankee451.com/wp-content/uplo...ectories-1.jpg
The steel is not less Brittle, it is less strong at only 36,000 pounds per square inch tensile strength.
Where the aircraft main Bulkhead is close to 300,000 pounds Tensile strength.
The weaker stationary material gives way to the stronger material that has high Momentum. Physics no 2 atoms can occupy the same space at the same time.
Simple as that.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 10:14 AM   #645
yankee451
Master Poster
 
yankee451's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,765
Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
You mean like carbon fiber wingtips?
The same wing tips that couldn't to more that dent aluminum sheeting?
yankee451 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 10:19 AM   #646
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 3,405
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Well, at least that's something to work with.
yankee451: is it your contention that the missiles were fired from the Woolworth Building?
Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
No.
Which rather begs the question of why you are quoting witnesses to support your theory, when you don't agree with what they said witnessed.
Can you explain this?
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 10:21 AM   #647
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 3,405
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I will freely admit to being neither an engineer, nor a military operative.
However, in my layman's view, surely, if the building had been hit by a swarm of missiles that exploded inside it, the damaged walls would be bent outwards, not inwards?
Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
You aren't paying attention.
Back at you, yankee451. Try reading past the word 'operative' in my post, and try answering my actual question, rather than posting this irrelevant rant.
Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
I am often accused of being an operative by truthers too. It gets confusing. My work focuses on evidence that exposes the fraud and collusion of all nations, not just the USA. The only people who would benefit from my work are genuine truth seekers.

The agenda at sites like the Skeptics and JREF is obvious; to discourage an honest assessment of facts, and the same can be said about the misnamed 9/11 Truth Movement. You are two sides of the same coin. Who benefits from the revelation that the USA launched multiple cruise missiles at sites within the USA? Who benefits from the knowledge that the leaders of the entire world's nations were and are colluding in this colossal lie, and that the global media apparatus continues to cover it up?

Truthers and trusters get bitchy when I talk about the evidence of the use of cruise missiles because it shatters their illusions.

There really is no other explanation for the lightly pinched cladding and the progressively worse damaged steel columns than what I have described.

"Like most of the 9/11 Truth Movement the goals of the enemy nations were to cover up the truth, to reinforce established authority, and by all means to prevent the role of the worlds’ media from being exposed. The myth of the independent media must be protected at all costs. Without their media to control the perception of whole populations the global house of cards would tumble. Before you know it average people who were at one time more concerned with their Facebook “likes” will unplug and start identifying who is ultimately responsible for 9/11. If they keep digging they’ll find the same people are to blame for the uber-*******-up of the world today; the richest people of all nations."
https://911crashtest.org/how-9-11-mi...lobal-slavery/
None of that has anything to do with my question.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 10:22 AM   #648
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,398
Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
The same wing tips that couldn't to more that dent aluminum sheeting?
Two different parts also you need to know what temperatures were the columns after impact how much heat did the impact generate that is something you have not factored in to your theories.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 10:24 AM   #649
yankee451
Master Poster
 
yankee451's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,765
Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
The steel is not less Brittle, it is less strong at only 36,000 pounds per square inch tensile strength.
Where the aircraft main Bulkhead is close to 300,000 pounds Tensile strength.
The weaker stationary material gives way to the stronger material that has high Momentum. Physics no 2 atoms can occupy the same space at the same time.
Simple as that.
Please compare the modulus of elasticity between aluminum alloys and different flavors of steel.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/y...lus-d_417.html
yankee451 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 10:28 AM   #650
yankee451
Master Poster
 
yankee451's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,765
Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Two different parts also you need to know what temperatures were the columns after impact how much heat did the impact generate that is something you have not factored in to your theories.
So now you're thinking it was the temperatures of the impacting bodies that was responsible for the shrinking of the wing tip to about the size of a cruise missile wing, and the change of direction and sudden increase in size, mass and density of the wing?
yankee451 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 10:30 AM   #651
yankee451
Master Poster
 
yankee451's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,765
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Back at you, yankee451. Try reading past the word 'operative' in my post, and try answering my actual question, rather than posting this irrelevant rant.


None of that has anything to do with my question.
This question?

Quote:
However, in my layman's view, surely, if the building had been hit by a swarm of missiles that exploded inside it, the damaged walls would be bent outwards, not inwards?
Scroll up. It has been answered numerous times, and linked to even more. This is what I meant by, "You aren't paying attention."
yankee451 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 10:53 AM   #652
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,398
Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
So now you're thinking it was the temperatures of the impacting bodies that was responsible for the shrinking of the wing tip to about the size of a cruise missile wing, and the change of direction and sudden increase in size, mass and density of the wing?
No all that is caused by the way the wing is joined to the main Bulkhead, to allow it more Flexibility than the main air frame. The temperature though on impact would make the steel more deformable. So that a folding wing would drag along and deform the Coulmns.
Just Like in Roosd Collapse of the Twin Towers the structure, the way the Connections act determined the event.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 10:57 AM   #653
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,398
I will ask you just one Question if the impact creates a hinge Joing on the main Bulkhead where the wings attach, would that lessen the inpact observed, and what would be the resulting damage pattern?
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 12:20 PM   #654
Axxman300
Illuminator
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 4,538
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I will freely admit to being neither an engineer, nor a military operative.
However, in my layman's view, surely, if the building had been hit by a swarm of missiles that exploded inside it, the damaged walls would be bent outwards, not inwards?
My man, they (multiple 1000lb warheads) would have snapped the building in half. That's the short and obvious answer to why the idea of missiles is dumb.
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 12:22 PM   #655
Axxman300
Illuminator
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 4,538
Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
For the regulars still arguing with the OP, I’ll just borrow the words of a poster who assessed the FatFreddy88/DavidC/rocky Apollo “hoax” threads thusly:

“I think you guys spend too much time fighting with mental patients.“
Low hanging fruit has its appeal.
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 12:31 PM   #656
yankee451
Master Poster
 
yankee451's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,765
Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
I will ask you just one Question if the impact creates a hinge Joing on the main Bulkhead where the wings attach, would that lessen the inpact observed, and what would be the resulting damage pattern?
What about frogs? Have you considered that?
yankee451 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 12:51 PM   #657
turingtest
Mistral, mistral wind...
 
turingtest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 4,100
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
No, but it does take someone who can evaluate the physics. (Or, someone observing the results of the actual event.)

What density was sufficient to have sharply bent 1/2 thick (sic) steep plate to the side? What density did the impacting portions of the plane have? Which number is greater? You are fallaciously offering an Unevaluated Inequality as evidence of something.




More Unevaluated Inequalities. It does take someone who can evaluate the physics. (Or, someone observing the results of the actual event.)




I guess that's why after Pearl Harbor, FDR stayed up all night doing finite element analysis to figure out whether 62 pounds of high explosive could penetrate steel battleship armor, before declaring war on Japan.

Or did he not do that? And if not, why not? Could it be that some "authorities" already know the answers to such questions?




What would change in the world if no planers were proved wrong?




You have not only failed to provide any impact evidence, you have denied any possibility for impact evidence even existing, since you claim no relevant calculations for evaluating your Unevaluated Inequalities have been done by anyone. There's no use discussing what evidence that doesn't exist would indicate if it did exist. Get calculating.





My assessment is that the bent and broken aluminum sheeting, and all other features of the photographs of the damage you have exhibited, are completely consistent with the scenario of impact with a near fully fueled passenger airliner at cruising speed. Some features appear counterintuitive but they're actually familiar phenomena in ballistic-velocity collisions. Parts of the impactor deforming so as to flow through a narrower breach is one example.

You can dismiss this assessment, of course. I've done no calculations. But neither have you, so I can and do dismiss yours. Why shouldn't I?




Did the thousands of gallons of real liquid hydrocarbon fuel that created the real fireball also come from a video layer? If not, then where do you think they came from?
Math, pffft...you are forgetting the algebraic assimilation of the evidence that occurs before the math.
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV;
I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems
Deep Purple- "The Aviator"

Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King
turingtest is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 01:30 PM   #658
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12,869
Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
You aren't paying attention.

Claptrap snipped.
Let me take this opportunity to make an observation and throw some actual evidence into the mix - not that you'll do any better addressing it than you did with the non-answer I snipped.

Other than a throw-away comment about cops and firemen being paid to plant evidence, you (as well as every-other 9/11 truth nutter) have simply referred to the human beings that are required to participate in your fantasy construct as "they."

When one believes the John Wick series of movies are documentaries and there's a criminal mastermind around every corner it's easy to come to the "they" conclusion as the catch all for their little evil deed fantasies.

Reality is considerably different. There is a name for average folks that believe they can purchase murder on any corner - Defendant:

https://rapidcityjournal.com/news/lo...fa936b3ca.html

A Rapid City man who was convicted for seeking help to murder his late wife's doctor has been sentenced to prison.

William Thoman, 63, was sentenced Friday by Judge Jeff Connolly to 15 years in prison with 10 years suspended and nearly a year of credit for time served, said defense lawyer Ellery Grey.


This one hits a little close to home. One defendant, who was convicted, was a friends father:

https://casetext.com/case/people-v-liu-8

In June 1992, appellant met with Hiroshi Hirashima, an old friend and business partner. Appellant told Hirashima that Wei had cheated him out of $80,000. Appellant asked Hirashima if he knew anyone who could help him get his money back. Assuming that appellant wanted someone to "rough up" Wei, Hirashima told appellant that he might know of someone who could do that. After his meeting with appellant, Hirashima approached Frank Amo, who at that time was living with Hirashima's daughter Donna at Hirashima's house. Amo had previously collected money for Hirashima. Hirashima told Amo that he had a possible new collection job for him. Amo agreed to meet appellant.

Appellant took Amo and Hirashima out for dinner and told them that Wei had "ripped [him] off" and cheated him out of "millions" in the gambling business. Appellant wanted Amo to kidnap Wei, his wife and "possibly his children," extort them, and then kill them. It appeared to Amo that Hirashima already knew of the plan, and was participating with appellant in presenting it to Amo. Both appellant and Hirashima suggested that "it would be best if a White guy did the job" in order to divert attention from themselves. Hirashima said that he would have to "put . . . away" or kill anyone who learned about the plan. Amo was shocked and frightened. He agreed to help appellant and Hirashima because he "didn't want to end up dead on the beach at that point." They agreed to meet again to discuss details of the plan.


The tough talking boyfriend of his daughter went right to the feds after he got his 10K. My friend explained his father's behavior as being "in his head, he was a gangster." Unfortunately for him, but fortunately for the intended victims, he was not. Liu beat the rap, Hirashima ended up in Folsom.

I can go on and on. Google "convicted of solicitation to commit murder." if you need further evidence.

I can already hear the great conspiracy investigator's complaint - "those are common criminals not GOV.FED.CORP.CONTRACTOR.PMC trained killers!

We've got some actual evidence from that side of the street to look at as well.

The My Lai massacre is well known and well documented, but what isn't generally known is that an Army Warrant officer landed his helicopter in between the troops involved and victims to put a stop to the killing, and several enlisted and noin-coms either refused to participate or tried to stop the murders. They also acted as witnesses and reported what they saw, The Army dragged it's feet and tried and hoped it would go away - it didn't - and whether one agrees with the judicial outcome or not the truth was known about the incident.

Far less well known is this - The Tiger Force recon platoon in the 101st ABN.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Force

Tiger Force was the name of a long-range reconnaissance patrol unit[1] of the 1st Battalion (Airborne), 327th Infantry, 1st Brigade (Separate), 101st Airborne Division, which fought in the Vietnam War from May to November 1967.[2] The unit gained notoriety after investigations during the course of the war and decades afterwards revealed extensive war crimes against civilians, which numbered into the hundreds.[3]...

Sallah found that between 1971 and 1975, the Army's Criminal Investigation Command had investigated the Tiger Force unit for alleged war crimes committed between May and November 1967.[8] The documents included sworn statements from many Tiger Force veterans, which detailed war crimes allegedly committed by Tiger Force members during the Song Ve Valley and Operation Wheeler military campaigns. The statements, from both individuals who allegedly participated in the war crimes and those that did not, described war crimes such as the following:


the routine torture and execution of prisoners[9]

the routine practice of intentionally killing unarmed Vietnamese villagers including men, women, children, and elderly people[10]

the routine practice of cutting off and collecting the ears of victims[11]

the practice of wearing necklaces composed of human ears[12]

the practice of cutting off and collecting the scalps of victims[13]

incidents where soldiers would plant weapons on murdered Vietnamese villagers[14]

an incident where a young mother was drugged, raped, and then executed[15]

an incident where a soldier killed a baby and cut off his or her head after the baby's mother was killed[16]


The investigators concluded that many of the war crimes indeed took place.[17] This included the murder of former-ARVN personnel, the murder of two blind brothers, the crippled and old and the routine murder of women and children.[3] Despite this, the Army decided not to pursue any prosecutions.[18]...

After studying the documents, Sallah and fellow reporter, Mitch Weiss, located and interviewed dozens of veterans who served in Tiger Force during the period in question as well as the CID investigators who later carried out the Army's inquiry. The reporters also traveled to Vietnam and tracked down numerous residents of Song Ve Valley who identified themselves as witnesses. Sallah and Weiss reported that the war crimes were corroborated by both veterans[20] and Song Ve Valley residents.[21] The reporters also managed to track down dozens of additional investigative records not included in the National Archives.

There's more to read for interested parties, but the facts are that in this case, the criminal acts committed took place over a specific period of time and while the acts were encouraged by lower level officers and NCO's and the Army didn't start a serious inquiry until 4 years after the crimes were committed individual service members in that unit had reported the crimes to the CoC at the time - some people turned a blind eye to those reorts but the EM's and non-coms didn't.

Another example from Vietnam, Robert Rheault:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Rheault

Robert Bradley Rheault /roʊ/ (October 31, 1925 – October 16, 2013) was an American colonel in the U.S. Army Special Forces who served as commander of the First Special Forces Group in Okinawa, and the Fifth Special Forces Group in Vietnam from May to July 1969.

Rheault was best known for his role as a co-conspirator and commander of the unit responsible for the 20 June 1969 execution of South Vietnam double agent Thai Khac Chuyen, who compromised intelligence agents involved in Project GAMMA operating in Vietnam and Cambodia.[1]


...

All U.S. Army Special Forces in 1969 operated under the control of 5th Special Forces Group, headquartered at Nha Trang on the southeast coast of South Vietnam. There was a close relationship with the CIA that complicated the chain of command and philosophy of rules of engagement.[6]

Colonel Rheault took command of the 5th in May 1969 and his unit was charged with seeking out leaks in a CIA-directed espionage ring as part of Project GAMMA. Rheault, along with six of his Special Forces officers and a sergeant were arrested by the U.S. military under the orders of General Creighton Abrams and threatened with charges of murder and conspiracy to commit murder, arising from the alleged extrajudicial killing of Thai Khac Chuyen, a Vietnamese double agent for the Americans and the North Vietnamese.[1][7]

The investigation and court-martial, held by the U.S. Army in Vietnam, rapidly became engulfed in a firestorm of media publicity. Most of the American public and the Special Forces believed that Colonel Rheault and all involved had been made scapegoats for a matter that reflected poorly upon the Army.[8] The view that there was no wrongdoing by the soldiers was probably best stated by Rheault's 11-year-old son, Robert, Jr. who upon learning of his father's arrest said, "What is all the fuss about? I thought that was what dad was in Vietnam for ... to kill Viet Cong".[3
]


My point here with this case is that contrary to the popular fiction version of reality where "they" can get away with anything everywhere from a single murder in Dallas to 9/11, the commanding officer of the 5th Special Forces Group can't get away clean with killing an enemy operative in the middle of a war, in the war zone.

That's reality.

I can hear more complaints from folks with an MCU worldview - "That's old, that doesn't have anything to do with the here and now!"

Unfortunately for that rooting section, we've got recent examples. I bet mosr CTists are aware of part of this story:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisour_Square_massacre


The Nisour Square Massacre occurred on September 16, 2007 where employees of Blackwater Security Consulting (now Academi), a private military company contracted by the US government to provide security services in Iraq, shot at Iraqi civilians, killing 17 and injuring 20 in Nisour Square, Baghdad, while escorting a U.S. embassy convoy.[1][2][3] The killings outraged Iraqis and strained relations between Iraq and the United States.[4] In 2014, four Blackwater employees were tried[5] and convicted in U.S. federal court; one of murder, and the other three of manslaughter and firearms charges.[6]

The CTists are happy, "Now that's what we're talking about!"

Except this part of the story might not make them happy:

On September 27, 2007, the New York Times reported that during the chaotic incident at Nisour Square, one member of the Blackwater security team continued to fire on civilians, despite urgent cease-fire calls from colleagues. It is unclear whether the team-member mistook the civilians for insurgents. The incident was allegedly resolved only after another Blackwater contractor pointed his weapon at the man still firing and ordered him to stop.[33]

Ooops...

How about this favorites of our fearless leader and Fox news, Clint Lorance

Clint Allen Lorance[1] (born December 13, 1984) is a former Army officer previously commissioned as a first lieutenant in the U.S. Army who in August 2013 was found guilty on two counts of second-degree murder for ordering soldiers in his platoon to open fire at three men on a motorcycle in southern Afghanistan in July 2012.[2] He was confined in the United States Disciplinary Barracks at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas until he was fully pardoned and ordered released by President Donald Trump, on November 15, 2019.[3][4]

At his trial in August 2013, nine members of his platoon testified against him.[5] Lorance never testified in the court hearings, though he did take responsibility for his men's actions. Lorance claimed three men on a motorcycle were speeding towards the platoon and ignoring commands to stop. Reports from his Platoon members state the motorcycle was 200 yards away and could not have reached their position easily[5]

Guy was in-country 3 days. His EM's and NCO's new he was bad news on day 1. As soon as the murders went down multiple members of his platoon went right to the CoC and reported the incident and stood as witnesses against him. I'm proud of those kids. They absolutely did the right thing.

That's the reality that all this "they" ******** has to overcome. There is no vast pool of professional sociopaths and psychopaths just waiting for a call from the head office to murder innocents. There is no cadre of technical experts that fall into those categories that would wire an occupied civilian building with explosives and not realize what was going on, or conveniently forget what they had done after the building comes down.

What there is are a demographic of amateurs that believe belief in and promotion of conspiravy theories rasies their social standing.

They're wrong both ways.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 01:37 PM   #659
yankee451
Master Poster
 
yankee451's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,765
Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
No all that is caused by the way the wing is joined to the main Bulkhead, to allow it more Flexibility than the main air frame. The temperature though on impact would make the steel more deformable. So that a folding wing would drag along and deform the Coulmns.
Just Like in Roosd Collapse of the Twin Towers the structure, the way the Connections act determined the event.
Great story, which unfortunately is not at all reflected by any of the videos or photographs ins the public domain. It is also in conflict with the NIST, which described the interaction of the wing thus:



Furthermore, for the wing to have "dragged" the much more massive and much less brittle steel to the right, some part of the wing MUST have impacted the RIGHT edge of the column. The below image ought to be enough to dispel that notion.

yankee451 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 01:37 PM   #660
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,098
Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
The agenda at sites like the Skeptics and JREF is obvious; to discourage an honest assessment of facts
You don't seem much interested in assessment of the facts when they are inconvenient to you.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

Last edited by Robin; 12th January 2020 at 01:39 PM.
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 01:48 PM   #661
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,098
Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
Furthermore, for the wing to have "dragged" the much more massive and much less brittle steel to the right, some part of the wing MUST have impacted the RIGHT edge of the column.
All it would have taken is for the wing already to have impacted the columns.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 01:58 PM   #662
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,098
Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
Great story, which unfortunately is not at all reflected by any of the videos or photographs ins the public domain. It is also in conflict with the NIST, which described the interaction of the wing thus:

http://yankee451.com/wp-content/uplo...wing-burst.png

Furthermore, for the wing to have "dragged" the much more massive and much less brittle steel to the right, some part of the wing MUST have impacted the RIGHT edge of the column. The below image ought to be enough to dispel that notion.

https://911crashtest.org/wp-content/...cladding-2.png
Incidentally - is the picture above the South Tower or North Tower?
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

Last edited by Robin; 12th January 2020 at 02:43 PM.
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 01:59 PM   #663
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16,926
Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
My man, they (multiple 1000lb warheads) would have snapped the building in half. That's the short and obvious answer to why the idea of missiles is dumb.
But multiple (say, a dozen) 1000 lb warheads would not have enough momentum (mass times velocity) to make the towers sway the way they did. But one 260,000 lb plane (260 times a 1000 lb warhead) at 450+ mph would have.

And no, the explosions of such warheads would not have added any momentum, unless a significant proportion of the warheads got ejected the opposite way at hypersonic speeds. Which obviously didn't happen (or else no one in downtown Manhattan would have retained their ear drums).
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 02:02 PM   #664
yankee451
Master Poster
 
yankee451's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,765
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
You don't seem much interested in assessment of the facts when they are inconvenient to you.
As anyone can see who reads the thread, that is not true in the least.
yankee451 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 02:04 PM   #665
yankee451
Master Poster
 
yankee451's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,765
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
All it would have taken is for the wing already to have impacted the columns.
So the wing some how managed to gouge out the steel column behind the cladding, but not the cladding that covered the steel. Check.
yankee451 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 02:06 PM   #666
yankee451
Master Poster
 
yankee451's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,765
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
But multiple (say, a dozen) 1000 lb warheads would not have enough momentum (mass times velocity) to make the towers sway the way they did. But one 260,000 lb plane (260 times a 1000 lb warhead) at 450+ mph would have.

And no, the explosions of such warheads would not have added any momentum, unless a significant proportion of the warheads got ejected the opposite way at hypersonic speeds. Which obviously didn't happen (or else no one in downtown Manhattan would have retained their ear drums).
Argument from incredulity noted. Unfortunately the evidence supports my conclusion nicely, but not yours. Hence the need to ignore the evidence, while attacking the messenger. These are not the actions of an intellectually honest individual.

As explained before, since the authorities are the most likely suspects, why would you think they would report witness accounts of missile impacts?

Last edited by yankee451; 12th January 2020 at 02:07 PM.
yankee451 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 02:17 PM   #667
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12,869
Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
Argument from incredulity noted. Unfortunately the evidence supports my conclusion nicely, but not yours. Hence the need to ignore the evidence, while attacking the messenger. These are not the actions of an intellectually honest individual.

As explained before, since the authorities are the most likely suspects, why would you think they would report witness accounts of missile impacts?
Who are these authorities you assert carried out the attacks? Who did the grunt work? Your theory is like ****** science fiction writing. You forget that every story is ultimately about humans, not science.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 02:40 PM   #668
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,098
Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
So the wing some how managed to gouge out the steel column behind the cladding, but not the cladding that covered the steel. Check.
Where do you say that has happened?
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 02:42 PM   #669
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,098
Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
As anyone can see who reads the thread, that is not true in the least.
It took about three or four posts to get you to admit the simple fact that the aircraft would be buckling and crumpling as soon as you hit. The first time I said that you said "You are making things up".

Why the need for that kind of dust kicking?
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 02:53 PM   #670
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12,869
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
It took about three or four posts to get you to admit the simple fact that the aircraft would be buckling and crumpling as soon as you hit. The first time I said that you said "You are making things up".

Why the need for that kind of dust kicking?
When you have the law on your side, pound the law.

When you have the facts on your sider, pound the facts.

If you have nothing, pound on the table.

The poster must have a repetitive motion injury at this point.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 02:57 PM   #671
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,098
Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
So the wing some how managed to gouge out the steel column behind the cladding, but not the cladding that covered the steel. Check.
Again, please point out on the picture where you say that the column is bent to the right but the cladding is intact.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

Last edited by Robin; 12th January 2020 at 03:00 PM.
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 02:58 PM   #672
Elagabalus
Philosopher
 
Elagabalus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,906
Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
Argument from incredulity noted. Unfortunately the evidence supports my conclusion nicely, but not yours. Hence the need to ignore the evidence, while attacking the messenger. These are not the actions of an intellectually honest individual.

As explained before, since the authorities are the most likely suspects, why would you think they would report witness accounts of missile impacts?
Your theory relies on the witness accounts of missile impacts of which there are none (witness accounts)?
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 02:58 PM   #673
turingtest
Mistral, mistral wind...
 
turingtest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 4,100
Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
Argument from incredulity noted. Unfortunately the evidence supports my conclusion nicely, but not yours. Hence the need to ignore the evidence, while attacking the messenger. These are not the actions of an intellectually honest individual.

As explained before, since the authorities are the most likely suspects, why would you think they would report witness accounts of missile impacts?
OMG, the irony here...
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV;
I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems
Deep Purple- "The Aviator"

Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King
turingtest is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 03:09 PM   #674
yankee451
Master Poster
 
yankee451's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,765
Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
OMG, the irony here...
I can understand your confusion, however my incredulity of the official story is based on the evidence of the lateral impacts of small projectiles. Your incredulity is based on your steadfast belief that the teevee would never lie to you about matters of such grave importance. Unlike your incredulity about my hypothesis, my incredulity is based on the physical evidence, which doesn't change, despite your incredulity.
yankee451 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 03:14 PM   #675
yankee451
Master Poster
 
yankee451's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,765
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
It took about three or four posts to get you to admit the simple fact that the aircraft would be buckling and crumpling as soon as you hit. The first time I said that you said "You are making things up".

Why the need for that kind of dust kicking?
Your paraphrasing skills are lacking. I said in a real crash yes, the plane would buckle, but that isn't what we're talking about here. This was not a real crash, which is why ZERO buckling and crumpling can be seen in any of the videos (unlike what one would expect to see in a real crash). Log that in.
yankee451 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 03:22 PM   #676
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,098
Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
Your paraphrasing skills are lacking. I said in a real crash yes, the plane would buckle, but that isn't what we're talking about here. This was not a real crash, which is why ZERO buckling and crumpling can be seen in any of the videos (unlike what one would expect to see in a real crash). Log that in.
Are you saying the damage is inconsistent with a real crash?

If so then we need to consider the damage in light of what would happen in a real crash. Why is that difficult to understand?

And if you know of any video that shows anything at all inconsistent with the plane buckling and crumpling as it impacts the building feel free to share.

I wasn't aware that there were any close up high-frame rate high resolution videos of this available.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 03:23 PM   #677
yankee451
Master Poster
 
yankee451's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,765
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Where do you say that has happened?
Notice the gouged steel behind the bent-out yet still standing cladding on fifth column from the left?


The cladding is bulged OUT, but still there, yet the the plane wing would have struck like this:



I'm sure you can see that the CLADDING would have been the FIRST part of the column for the plane wing to have gouged out, had the plane wing been responsible. The evidence fits my conclusion that this damage was caused by the lateral impact of missile warheads measuring around 12" wide, and weighing around 900 lbs.


Last edited by yankee451; 12th January 2020 at 03:24 PM.
yankee451 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 03:25 PM   #678
AJM8125
Potsing Whiled Runk
Tagger
 
AJM8125's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,203
Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
This was not a real crash, which is why ZERO buckling and crumpling can be seen in any of the videos (unlike what one would expect to see in a real crash). Log that in.
What other examples of great ******* airliners being deliberately flown into office buildings and exploding do we have to compare with?

How, he asks with no expectation of an answer, would you have expected AA 11 and UA 175 to behave in 500 and 600 MPH collisions?
__________________


The better you get, the harder you work.
AJM8125 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 03:30 PM   #679
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,398
Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
Great story, which unfortunately is not at all reflected by any of the videos or photographs ins the public domain. It is also in conflict with the NIST, which described the interaction of the wing thus:

http://yankee451.com/wp-content/uplo...wing-burst.png

Furthermore, for the wing to have "dragged" the much more massive and much less brittle steel to the right, some part of the wing MUST have impacted the RIGHT edge of the column. The below image ought to be enough to dispel that notion.

https://911crashtest.org/wp-content/...cladding-2.png
I care how Nist described the wing impact Why?
Also the perimeter columns can not be said to be more massive.

If you do so you must caculate the total mass.
Brittleness is Irelevent it's tensile strength that counts as well as hardness and heat energy.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2020, 03:32 PM   #680
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12,869
Oh, the running of the goalposts, ignoring pertinent fats and the projection of inadequacy are strong in this one.

I particularly enjoy watching an internet investigator of conspiracies digging their hole to nowhere.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:26 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.