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Old 11th May 2020, 12:45 PM   #3161
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I'm late joining this, and as usual for a thread so large, I have only skimmed parts of it, but want to address one of my favorite logical faults. A favorite argument by atheistic zealots is that the Abrahamic/Christian God cannot at the same time be all good, all knowing, and all powerful. I agree. But their reasoning in reaching the sole conclusion that God cannot exist based on that argument is faulty. Correct me if there is a third possibility, but I see only two: 1: God does not exist, or 2: Abrahamic/Christian understanding of the nature of God that makes that argument possible is incorrect/incomplete. I do not argue either course, only that the reasoning used to arrive at a conclusion is flawed.

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Old 11th May 2020, 01:59 PM   #3162
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Originally Posted by Thorkil2 View Post
I'm late joining this, and as usual for a thread so large, I have only skimmed parts of it, but want to address one of my favorite logical faults. A favorite argument by atheistic zealots is that the Abrahamic/Christian God cannot at the same time be all good, all knowing, and all powerful. I agree. But their reasoning in reaching the sole conclusion that God cannot exist based on that argument is faulty. Correct me if there is a third possibility, but I see only two: 1: God does not exist, or 2: Abrahamic/Christian understanding of the nature of God that makes that argument possible is incorrect/incomplete. I do not argue either course, only that the reasoning used to arrive at a conclusion is flawed.

You’ve got the wrong group identified, the “problem of evil” is a problem for theists not for those that don’t believe in the type of god the Christian religions claim exists. It’s a problem that we know they have been trying to find a solution to for at least 1800 years and have never progressed beyond “goddidit/mysterious ways”.
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Old 11th May 2020, 02:15 PM   #3163
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Is that like Prince Albert in a can?
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Old 17th May 2020, 07:47 PM   #3164
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You’ve got the wrong group identified, the “problem of evil” is a problem for theists not for those that don’t believe in the type of god the Christian religions claim exists. It’s a problem that we know they have been trying to find a solution to for at least 1800 years and have never progressed beyond “goddidit/mysterious ways”.
I'm not sure I understand your answer because I said nothing about evil, no was I responding to a post about the problem of evil. I simply noted that the one of the favored arguments of the Atheistic community is flawed in its reasoning.
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Old 17th May 2020, 09:26 PM   #3165
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Originally Posted by Thorkil2 View Post
I'm late joining this, and as usual for a thread so large, I have only skimmed parts of it, but want to address one of my favorite logical faults. A favorite argument by atheistic zealots is that the Abrahamic/Christian God cannot at the same time be all good, all knowing, and all powerful. I agree. But their reasoning in reaching the sole conclusion that God cannot exist based on that argument is faulty. Correct me if there is a third possibility, but I see only two: 1: God does not exist, or 2: Abrahamic/Christian understanding of the nature of God that makes that argument possible is incorrect/incomplete. I do not argue either course, only that the reasoning used to arrive at a conclusion is flawed.
You probably picked the wrong thread for this argument (but there has been some thread drift from time to time). The "all good, all knowing, and all powerful" nature of the Abrahamic God is not the topic of discussion here. It isn't even specifically about the Abrahamic God but as the claimed creator of the universe, he often gets a mention.

The issue is whether the "dragon in the garage" is an apt analogy for the God of the universe. Many have claimed that if you reject the dragon in the garage then you should reject God for the same reason. However, as quotes from Sagan's Demon Haunted World shows, he was using that analogy to point out the folly of constantly revising the properties of something to explain why it any particular test to detect it will fail.

This is slightly different to the concept of a god in that if the god doesn't want to be seen (by many) then that god has the ability to make it so without having to acquire "new" properties all the time.
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Old 18th May 2020, 05:01 AM   #3166
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
And here’s what it looks like.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6ec3f84da4.gif

I made this a few years back on JREF, feel free to reuse
Good work!
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Old 18th May 2020, 05:36 AM   #3167
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You probably picked the wrong thread for this argument (but there has been some thread drift from time to time). The "all good, all knowing, and all powerful" nature of the Abrahamic God is not the topic of discussion here. It isn't even specifically about the Abrahamic God but as the claimed creator of the universe, he often gets a mention.

The issue is whether the "dragon in the garage" is an apt analogy for the God of the universe. Many have claimed that if you reject the dragon in the garage then you should reject God for the same reason. However, as quotes from Sagan's Demon Haunted World shows, he was using that analogy to point out the folly of constantly revising the properties of something to explain why it any particular test to detect it will fail.

This is slightly different to the concept of a god in that if the god doesn't want to be seen (by many) then that god has the ability to make it so without having to acquire "new" properties all the time.
Nice try!

Before we can establish "a god that does not want to be seen", of course we have to establish "a god" which leads us right back to the very apt analogy of the dragon in the garage.
Unfortunately, your atrocious dishonesty has made it impossible for you to accept this fact.
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Old 18th May 2020, 06:01 AM   #3168
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So it’s “The God of the universe” now. Luckily we have that goalpost graphic.
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Old 18th May 2020, 11:50 AM   #3169
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Mod Warning Address the arguments please, rather than attacking the arguer. Do not name-call.
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Old 18th May 2020, 06:53 PM   #3170
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Psion, what prevents the dragon in the garage from also being selectively seen or not seen at will, as this god of the universe can.

Because you know someone claiming a dragon in his garage with that property will be along soon.
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Old 18th May 2020, 07:27 PM   #3171
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So what is His name, then? Is it Harold, or is it Smaug?
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Old 18th May 2020, 08:13 PM   #3172
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Psion, what prevents the dragon in the garage from also being selectively seen or not seen at will, as this god of the universe can.

Because you know someone claiming a dragon in his garage with that property will be along soon.
That could happen but it wouldn't be Sagan's dragon then.

According to Sagan's analogy, the dragon has all of these scientific properties that render it undetectable. If you are talking about magic then that is something else.
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Old 18th May 2020, 08:16 PM   #3173
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Before we can establish "a god that does not want to be seen", of course we have to establish "a god"
That part is true. If we want to move beyond idle speculation then establishing the existence of a god is the first step.

Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
which leads us right back to the very apt analogy of the dragon in the garage.
That part is false. It is a non sequitur.
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Old 18th May 2020, 08:24 PM   #3174
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Originally Posted by gabeygoat View Post
Good work!

It is the only post of mine that contributes to this thread apparently.
The rest have been relegated to AAH.
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Old 18th May 2020, 09:20 PM   #3175
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Nice try!

Before we can establish "a god that does not want to be seen", of course we have to establish "a god" which leads us right back to the very apt analogy of the dragon in the garage.
Unfortunately, your atrocious dishonesty has made it impossible for you to accept this fact.
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That part is true. If we want to move beyond idle speculation then establishing the existence of a god is the first step.

That part is false. It is a non sequitur.
Nope, both parts are true.

The claimant must first establish that God exists. Such a claimant is positing the existence of a supernatural being, one that allegedly (according to your criteria) cannot be detected by any means. The failure of any means of detection is explained away by the claimant with an ever expanding series of excuses. This claim is an extraordinary one, and therefore, but must pass the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" threshold.

A person claiming to have an invisible dragon in their garage is claiming the existence of a supernatural being, one that allegedly cannot be detected by any means. The failure of any means of detection is explained away by the claimant with an ever expanding series of excuses. This claim is an extraordinary one, and therefore, but must pass the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" threshold.

Claims for the existence of God and claims for the existence of invisible dragons are identical in every way that matters, ergo, the "dragon in my garage" analogy applies to God.
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Old 18th May 2020, 09:40 PM   #3176
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That could happen but it wouldn't be Sagan's dragon then.

According to Sagan's analogy, the dragon has all of these scientific properties that render it undetectable. If you are talking about magic then that is something else.
Sagan chose "dragon" and "garage" arbitrarily. As I have repeatedly said, the point is not that it is a dragon. The point is that all objections to whatever-it-is are special pleaded away. It could be a dragon in the garage, it could be a teapot orbiting Mars, it could be an invisible pink unicorn. It doesn't matter.

Also, it's not that the object in question has "all these scientific properties". It's that questions about why it can't be detected are answered with special pleading.

Once again it is clear that you have profoundly failed to grasp the point. I suggest re-reading the relevant chapter of The Demon Haunted World - which of course you have read, right? - and try harder to comprehend what it is talking about.
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Old 18th May 2020, 09:57 PM   #3177
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I suggest re-reading the relevant chapter of The Demon Haunted World - which of course you have read, right? - and try harder to comprehend what it is talking about.
Not only have I read The Demon Haunted World but I have quoted the dragon analogy from that book - in full - in this thread.

Every proposed test to detect the dragon is met with "that won't work because the dragon has property x". There is no hint that any of the properties that are added to the dragon are magical or miraculous.
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Old 18th May 2020, 10:00 PM   #3178
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Not only have I read The Demon Haunted World but I have quoted the dragon analogy from that book - in full - in this thread.

Every proposed test to detect the dragon is met with "that won't work because the dragon has property x". There is no hint that any of the properties that are added to the dragon are magical or miraculous.
Complete invisibility isn't magical? Cold fire breathing isn't magical? Think about what you're saying.
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Old 18th May 2020, 10:04 PM   #3179
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Complete invisibility isn't magical? Cold fire breathing isn't magical? Think about what you're saying.
Mess around with the dictionary if you wish. You will have us believing that air is magical yet.
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Old 18th May 2020, 10:32 PM   #3180
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Mess around with the dictionary if you wish. You will have us believing that air is magical yet.
Show me a creature that is naturally invisible. Dragons aren't made of air.

Actually, don't. You're getting distracted by dragons again (and so am I). How about you start thinking about special pleading instead?
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Old 19th May 2020, 12:25 AM   #3181
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Show me a creature that is naturally invisible. Dragons aren't made of air.

Actually, don't. You're getting distracted by dragons again (and so am I). How about you start thinking about special pleading instead?
Are you for real? How can I get "distracted by dragons" in a thread about dragons?

You are obviously unaware that I was responding to a specific question in post #3170:
"what prevents the dragon in the garage from also being selectively seen or not seen at will"?
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Old 19th May 2020, 12:28 AM   #3182
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Are you for real? How can I get "distracted by dragons" in a thread about dragons?
Because the entire thread is distracted by dragons! I said at the very beginning, the point of the "dragon in the garage" analogy is not the dragon, or the garage, it's the special pleading! The analogy is just an illustration of the application of a logical fallacy.
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Old 19th May 2020, 01:21 AM   #3183
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That part is true. If we want to move beyond idle speculation then establishing the existence of a god is the first step.


That part is false. It is a non sequitur.
Claiming "The god does not want to be seen" is 100% the same as "The dragon is invisible" and therefore your god that does not want to be seen is 100% covered by the analogy. Very very very simple stuff.
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Old 19th May 2020, 02:14 AM   #3184
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That part is true. If we want to move beyond idle speculation then establishing the existence of a god is the first step.





That part is false. It is a non sequitur.
Establishing that your god could exist would be the first step, pointless speculating about something that couldn't exist, why that would be like talking about invisible pink dragons!
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Old 19th May 2020, 02:15 AM   #3185
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I said at the very beginning, the point of the "dragon in the garage" analogy is not the dragon, or the garage, it's the special pleading!
No it's about ad-hoc revisions. It's about adding "new" properties to hand wave away tests that might otherwise apply.

And you don't want to acknowledge that I was answering a very specific question.
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Old 19th May 2020, 02:21 AM   #3186
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No it's about ad-hoc revisions. It's about adding "new" properties to hand wave away tests that might otherwise apply.

And you don't want to acknowledge that I was answering a very specific question.
Like "The god does not want to be detected/The god is actively preventing people from seeing/detecting him"?
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Old 19th May 2020, 02:42 AM   #3187
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No it's about ad-hoc revisions. It's about adding "new" properties to hand wave away tests that might otherwise apply.
Ah, so this is new goalpost move you have pulled to try to distance pGod from the invisible dragon? Well, it is doomed to failure, because you are assuming a false premise

The ad-hoc revisions you are talking about are not changes to the properties of the dragon, they are revisions to the claimant's EXCUSES for why the dragon cannot be detected.

The dragon was always invisible
The dragon was always floating
The dragon always breathed heatless fire
Whatever property the examiner came up with, the dragon already had the property the claimant would tell the examiner to make the excuse.

This is exactly what happens with your God claims

pGod was always invisible
pGod was always all-powerful
pGod could take any step, do anything to make sure he is not detected


God IS a dragon in the garage - they are a perfect match, they always have been and they always will be!
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Old 19th May 2020, 02:50 AM   #3188
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Not only have I read The Demon Haunted World but I have quoted the dragon analogy from that book - in full - in this thread.

Every proposed test to detect the dragon is met with "that won't work because the dragon has property x". There is no hint that any of the properties that are added to the dragon are magical or miraculous.
Well. no. That is evidence that you can copy and paste, not that you actually read and comprehended it.
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Old 19th May 2020, 05:35 AM   #3189
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Well. no. That is evidence that you can copy and paste, not that you actually read and comprehended it.
That is not a correction of my summary so it can be dismissed.
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Old 19th May 2020, 05:36 AM   #3190
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Ah, so this is new goalpost move you have pulled to try to distance pGod from the invisible dragon?
Since there is no "pGod", your entire post is nonsense.
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Old 19th May 2020, 05:38 AM   #3191
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Establishing that your god could exist would be the first step, pointless speculating about something that couldn't exist, why that would be like talking about invisible pink dragons!
Have you established that gods couldn't possibly exist?
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Old 19th May 2020, 05:41 AM   #3192
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Have you established that gods couldn't possibly exist?
Do you believe that Brahma exists? If not, why not?
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Old 19th May 2020, 05:48 AM   #3193
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Do you believe that Brahma exists? If not, why not?
Why did you change the subject from logically possible/impossible to a question of belief?

I have no idea if "Brahma" (whatever that is) exists but I won't say it can't possibly exist if I don't have proof.
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Old 19th May 2020, 05:53 AM   #3194
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Have you established that gods couldn't possibly exist?
Not my claim so not interested in doing the work. When you provide it I'll have a look over it.
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Old 19th May 2020, 06:47 AM   #3195
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
pointless speculating about something that couldn't exist
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not my claim
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Old 19th May 2020, 07:03 AM   #3196
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Not only have I read The Demon Haunted World but I have quoted the dragon analogy from that book - in full - in this thread.

Every proposed test to detect the dragon is met with "that won't work because the dragon has property x". There is no hint that any of the properties that are added to the dragon are magical or miraculous.
The analogy is meant to illustrate special pleading.
You just illustrated special pleading by analyzing the analogy using special pleading.

/thread
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Old 19th May 2020, 07:44 AM   #3197
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Yep not my claim - you are claiming your god could exist, I'm asking you to support that claim.
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Old 19th May 2020, 08:01 AM   #3198
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Why did you change the subject from logically possible/impossible to a question of belief?
Because that is the topic.
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Old 19th May 2020, 09:28 AM   #3199
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
The analogy is meant to illustrate special pleading.
You just illustrated special pleading by analyzing the analogy using special pleading.

/thread
For the umpty fifth time...

And another claim tha this isn't what the analogy is REALLY about coming in...

With a side order of specially pleading that special pleading isn't REALLY pleading specially.
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Old 19th May 2020, 05:16 PM   #3200
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No it's about ad-hoc revisions. It's about adding "new" properties to hand wave away tests that might otherwise apply.
Yes, that's what special pleading means. You excuse away any attempt to question its existence. Like the examples RedStapler and smartcookie provided in their recent posts.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
And you don't want to acknowledge that I was answering a very specific question.
A question that is utterly irrelevant, because it is about a dragon.
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