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Old 5th May 2020, 01:54 PM   #1
HansMustermann
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Greyhound trailer

Well, after bashing movies like Midway for stuff like that the ship positions in harbour were wrong, I must say this trailer provided some much needed perspective.

Now disclaimer, I haven't seen the actual movie, since it's not out yet, so I'm just going off on the trailer. But boy, is even that so completely wrong.

Just the fact that an uboot would just surface alongside a DESTROYER to have a bit of a duel is just... painful to watch. I mean, forget the main guns. Even the 40mm AA pompoms or even 20mm AA guns could go right through a type VII's pressure hull, which was anywhere between about three quarters of an inch and 1.1 inch thick (in the C/42 model.) Meaning that, depending on the model, even the .50 machineguns could poke holes in it or at the very least pose a significant risk of cracking it. Partial penetrations are a thing too.

Besides, what exactly would it DO if it popped up next to a destroyer, anyway? How would you even shoot at the destroyer? Manning the 88mm gun took some time, not the least because you had to go out through the conning tower, go down on the deck, bring out the ammo, etc. While being out in the open next to a frikken destroyer with machineguns on it. Like, what the hell?

And yes, it's not even an armed merchant cruiser or corvette, much as even that would be bloody suicidal to just pop up next to. It's supposed to be a destroyer.
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Old 5th May 2020, 02:40 PM   #2
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Have you a link?
The gun duel with the sub is certainly true to the book. And I think there's another scene in which a sub finds itself directly along the destroyer through no intention of either.

ETA: In the book, if I recall correctly, the sub in the surface gun duel was damaged and unable to submerge.
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Old 5th May 2020, 02:44 PM   #3
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Here you go
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And, well, it being taken from a novel doesn't make it any less cringe worthy for me, tbh.
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Old 5th May 2020, 03:00 PM   #4
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Ok, that's the same one from a couple of months ago.

Among other things, Hanks is too damn old. The Captain in the novel is a Commander who'd been past over for promotion a couple of times, and would probably have been booted out if not for the war. But he still wouldn't have been over about 40.
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Old 8th May 2020, 03:39 AM   #5
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I was going to order a paperback copy of the book, but I just saw that Amazon has it on Kindle for $0.99.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0
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Old 9th May 2020, 01:28 PM   #6
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It could be worse. They could have switched out the sub for a bus. A Greyhound bus! Get it? Har har!
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Old 9th May 2020, 03:53 PM   #7
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TBH, since I'm under the impression that the Greyhound was supposed to be the destroyer, replacing it with a bus might actually make that trailer better. A sub surfacing next to a bus can at least be played for laughs as surreal comedy, sorta Top Secret style
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Old 9th May 2020, 06:26 PM   #8
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The title is stupid. USN destroyers have always been named after naval heroes. "Greyhound" sounds more like something from the RN, although I don't know if they've used it. And the ship's radio callsign in the book was "George".
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Old 10th May 2020, 12:15 AM   #9
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I was wondering about that too, but I don't know the full list of every American naval hero. I was taking a wild guess that maybe there was some guy called Greyhound at some point
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Old 10th May 2020, 07:41 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
The title is stupid. USN destroyers have always been named after naval heroes. "Greyhound" sounds more like something from the RN, although I don't know if they've used it. And the ship's radio callsign in the book was "George".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Greyhound_(H05)

Had an interesting, if short, career in the Med.
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Old 10th May 2020, 08:16 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by gypsyjackson View Post
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Greyhound_(H05)

Had an interesting, if short, career in the Med.
Thanks! Quite a few others with the name as well.
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Old 10th May 2020, 01:07 PM   #12
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We've discussed most of this stuff in the World's Worst Warships thread. Other problems include the fact that they're on a Fletcher with late-war AA armament (including radar-directed 40mm guns), and the fact that Hanks is yakking on the radio with the PBY pilot about information that could help the Germans.
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Old 10th May 2020, 02:37 PM   #13
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Sounds as if H'wood took a tolerably good novel and made a hash of it. Who could have ever ever EVER imagined such a thing?
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Old 10th May 2020, 03:42 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
TBH, since I'm under the impression that the Greyhound was supposed to be the destroyer, replacing it with a bus might actually make that trailer better. A sub surfacing next to a bus can at least be played for laughs as surreal comedy, sorta Top Secret style

Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
The title is stupid. USN destroyers have always been named after naval heroes. "Greyhound" sounds more like something from the RN, although I don't know if they've used it. And the ship's radio callsign in the book was "George".

Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I was wondering about that too, but I don't know the full list of every American naval hero. I was taking a wild guess that maybe there was some guy called Greyhound at some point

I was wondering if the title might be some kind of metaphor for the tactical scenario, given that the submariners styled themselves as wolves. A greyhound is faster than a wolf, but less heavily armed in a sense, which... doesn't really seem to fit a destroyer. (Faster, yes, but...) But maybe there's some aspect I'm not seeing.

Or, maybe it's just the codename for the convoy?
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Old 10th May 2020, 04:01 PM   #15
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Well, the armament disproportion is what makes me wonder about any sub captain deciding to have a firefight with a destroyer. At a quick glance, it looked like a Fletcher class or such, which means 5 guns of 5" each, plus it can vomit 10 torpedoes to either side on short notice, which can REALLY ruin your day if you're a sub on the surface. As in, a single hit WILL sink you. Plus a crapton of quick firing 40mm and 20mm AA guns, which again are more than enough by themselves to go right through a sub's pressure hull and out the other side. A sub has a single 88mm gun, so 3.5" or thereabouts, no fire director, no stabilization, no ranging radar, etc, and frankly sometimes it took quite a few hits to even sink a freighter with it. I mean, sure, it'll go through the 0.75" belt of a destroyer, but those things still have bulkheads and damage control, and you really need to hit at the waterline with a gun on a non-stabilized platform, directed by human eyeball Mk I. The disparity makes it not worth even trying.

Honestly, if I were a sub captain and not on meth, if I'm stuck on the surface and there's a destroyer anywhere in sight, my orders would be to just hoist a white flag on the periscope and order the crew to abandon it just in case.
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Old 10th May 2020, 05:18 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
I was wondering if the title might be some kind of metaphor for the tactical scenario, given that the submariners styled themselves as wolves. A greyhound is faster than a wolf, but less heavily armed in a sense, which... doesn't really seem to fit a destroyer. (Faster, yes, but...) But maybe there's some aspect I'm not seeing.

Or, maybe it's just the codename for the convoy?

The convoy would have a code name starting with HX (or possibly HXF, for a fast convoy), followed by the convoy number, which started with 1 and was incremented by 1 for each new convoy. The "HX" originally stood for Halifax, but the designation applied to convoys from anywhere in North America to Britain.

We've also discussed the issue of ship code names previously; in the book the Keeling is code-named "George"; the other three escorts are "Harry" (H.M.S. James, a British corvette), "Dickey" (H.M.C.S. Dodge, a Canadian corvette), and "Eagle" (O.R.P. Viktor, a Polish destroyer). I really, really, hope that "Greyhound" is supposed to be a code name, and not the actual name of the American destroyer.
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Old 10th May 2020, 06:14 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, the armament disproportion is what makes me wonder about any sub captain deciding to have a firefight with a destroyer. At a quick glance, it looked like a Fletcher class or such, which means 5 guns of 5" each, plus it can vomit 10 torpedoes to either side on short notice, which can REALLY ruin your day if you're a sub on the surface. As in, a single hit WILL sink you. Plus a crapton of quick firing 40mm and 20mm AA guns, which again are more than enough by themselves to go right through a sub's pressure hull and out the other side. A sub has a single 88mm gun, so 3.5" or thereabouts, no fire director, no stabilization, no ranging radar, etc, and frankly sometimes it took quite a few hits to even sink a freighter with it. I mean, sure, it'll go through the 0.75" belt of a destroyer, but those things still have bulkheads and damage control, and you really need to hit at the waterline with a gun on a non-stabilized platform, directed by human eyeball Mk I. The disparity makes it not worth even trying.

Honestly, if I were a sub captain and not on meth, if I'm stuck on the surface and there's a destroyer anywhere in sight, my orders would be to just hoist a white flag on the periscope and order the crew to abandon it just in case.

It's a Fletcher; they used the hull number of a canceled Fletcher, and a lot of the filming was done aboard the museum ship U.S.S. Kidd. Again, though, the armament is 1945, and one set of torpedo tubes has been replaced by 40 mm flak.
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Old 10th May 2020, 06:27 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Sounds as if H'wood took a tolerably good novel and made a hash of it. Who could have ever ever EVER imagined such a thing?
Makes you surprised it doesn't have laser cannons, doesn't it?
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Old 10th May 2020, 11:05 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Makes you surprised it doesn't have laser cannons, doesn't it?
For the sequel, they should get this guy to direct:
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I’ll probably still watch the film, maybe even at a cinema if it is released over here and I won’t die of a virus. It might be ******* in terms of realism, but if it gets tension right it might still be worth viewing.

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Old 10th May 2020, 11:57 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
It's a Fletcher; they used the hull number of a canceled Fletcher, and a lot of the filming was done aboard the museum ship U.S.S. Kidd. Again, though, the armament is 1945, and one set of torpedo tubes has been replaced by 40 mm flak.
Well, that wouldn't have been the case in '42, tho. And I think my point still stands either way. More pompoms will likely just make it even quicker to sink a sub than the torps. Not that you really need either for it to be a horrible idea to start a shooting match with the destroyer.
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Old 14th May 2020, 03:44 PM   #21
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I finished rereading The Good Shepherd, and I now feel significantly more optimistic about the movie. I won't spoil anything major that isn't shown in (or contradicted by) the trailer without spoiler tags.

First, a general observation. I've seen it suggested, here and elsewhere, that the book is set in "early 1942." My opinion is that late 1942 is much more likely, for reasons I'll discuss. However, I have to allow that it is possible that some of the things that lead me to believe that the setting is late in 1942 could be products of imperfect research by Forester.

Keeling is armed with 40 mm guns; the writing suggests that there is one port mount and one starboard mount. IRL, the Mahans had their number three five-inch guns removed and replaced with two single 20 mm guns, one firing to each side, starting in early 1942. These were replaced by twin 40 mm mounts in the fall of 1942. However, the book mentions that Keeling has five 5-inch guns. The survivors eventually had most or all of their torpedo tubes replaced by quad 40 mm mounts, but that didn't happen until 1945.

Keeling has SC radar. At one point Krause thinks to himself that he wishes he had SG radar, because it's more accurate and reliable. Most or all of the Mahans received SC radar by mid-1942.

In addition to the ubiquitous twin depth charge rails, Keeling has two k-guns (depth-charge projectors). The Mahans didn't carry any k-guns at the beginning of the war, but four were added early in 1942, apparently when the number three gun was removed and the 20 mm AA guns were added.

Another factor that leads me to think that late 1942 is a more likely setting is that during one depth-charge attack, Krause thinks to himself that streamlined ("teardrop") depth charges, which have a higher sink rate than cylindrical depth charges, are in production, but not available yet. Streamlined depth charges were introduced in the spring of 1943.

The upshot of all of this is that I'm considerably less bothered about the use of the Kidd as the destroyer in the film, although there are still too many 40 mms, and the radar suite is all wrong.
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Old 14th May 2020, 10:25 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Makes you surprised it doesn't have laser cannons, doesn't it?
They should have strapped a sherman tank to the bow of the DD and a Pz IV to the sub and had a tank fight too......
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Old 14th May 2020, 11:46 PM   #23
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A truly full-out Hollywoodization would have had the destroyer and sub skippers in a fistfight at the climax.

I was honestly grateful that Return of the King didn’t peak with a fistfight between Aragorn and Sauron.
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Old 15th May 2020, 12:45 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
I finished rereading The Good Shepherd, and I now feel significantly more optimistic about the movie. I won't spoil anything major that isn't shown in (or contradicted by) the trailer without spoiler tags.
You obviously have more faith in Hollywood than I do. I actually expect them to work in officers disobeying authority like entitled 14 year olds, and whatnot, just because it's the standard recipe for action movies
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Old 15th May 2020, 03:01 AM   #25
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https://www.greyhound.movie/

"inspired by actual events" is really all I need to know. The trailer looked Hollywood-ish as heck, too.

The men on the Atlantic convoys were the unsung heroes of WWII, and I've been pining for a movie about them for a long time. A kind of reverse Das Boot, set on a merchant ship crossing the Atlantic, about all the hardships they experienced. As a Norwegian, of course I envision a movie centered around NORTRASHIP and the Norwegian merchantmen, but it doesn't have to be.

This, though, this seems like a cash grab or a convenient setting for an action movie, more than a desire to tell a story about WWII.
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Old 15th May 2020, 05:33 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
You obviously have more faith in Hollywood than I do. I actually expect them to work in officers disobeying authority like entitled 14 year olds, and whatnot, just because it's the standard recipe for action movies

I have some faith in Tom Hanks, although he has one strike against him for Sully, with its ridiculous attempt to make the NTSB out to be villains, a point to which I've alluded in another thread.
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Old 15th May 2020, 05:50 AM   #27
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Well, here's to hope. I certainly don't wish it to be bad. Just, you know, as they say: blessed are the pessimists, for they will only have pleasant surprises
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Old 15th May 2020, 07:20 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Ok, that's the same one from a couple of months ago.

Among other things, Hanks is too damn old. The Captain in the novel is a Commander who'd been past over for promotion a couple of times, and would probably have been booted out if not for the war. But he still wouldn't have been over about 40.
Hollywood rules - male stars are allowed to play whatever age they want until they physically decompose under the lighting.
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Old 15th May 2020, 09:19 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Hollywood rules - male stars are allowed to play whatever age they want until they physically decompose under the lighting.
Yup. I just checked and was surprised to see the actress playing Hanks's wife is 56! I was expecting early 20's.
In the book, she had left him for a lawyer. I wonder how they'll treat that in the film.
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Old 15th May 2020, 09:39 AM   #30
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I was wondering that, too. The fact that she says, "Congratulations on your new command," makes me think they've already split up when that scene takes place.
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Old 15th May 2020, 09:51 AM   #31
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Just watched the rest of the trailer. All I have to say is,

that moment where the u-boat captain spoke to them like some Bonds villain before the whole wolf pack appeared on radar was so incredibly cheesy.
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Old 15th May 2020, 09:53 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, here's to hope. I certainly don't wish it to be bad. Just, you know, as they say: blessed are the pessimists, for they will only have pleasant surprises
True, true.

Also, here's what "inspired on true events" means in this case:

https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2020/03/0...ion-tom-hanks/
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Old 15th May 2020, 10:02 AM   #33
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I forgot to mention that I just saw that the release has been indefinitely postponed. I'm a little surprised; this seems a good candidate for direct-to-streaming. Possibly it's because Sony doesn't want to stream anything with an A-list star. I also saw that this was originally supposed to have been released more than a year ago; I wonder why it was originally delayed.
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Old 15th May 2020, 10:18 AM   #34
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After exercising my Google-fu, I found several sources that state that "Greyhound" is in fact Keeling's code name. And I saw that there's a Polish-American actor cast as "Eagle," which, as I mentioned, is the Polish destroyer's code name. In the book Viktor has a Royal Navy liaison officer to handle radio conversations; I imagine Hanks and his co-writers decided that it would be less confusing to the audience to have Eagle speak in Polish-accented English. I also noticed there's a black actor fairly prominently up the cast list; presumably he'll be the mess steward who brings Krause his coffee and meals on the bridge, and, I suspect, offer him encouragement.
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Old 15th May 2020, 10:38 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
Just watched the rest of the trailer. All I have to say is,

that moment where the u-boat captain spoke to them like some Bonds villain before the whole wolf pack appeared on radar was so incredibly cheesy.

In the book, although Krause doesn't actually hear for himself, one of the other escorts mentions that the Germans have an English speaker who's been making rude comments over the radio, so it's not as cheesy as it might seem. The idea of all of those blips (too many, plus the SC radar didn't display contacts that way) is silly, though.
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Old 15th May 2020, 11:08 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
After exercising my Google-fu, I found several sources that state that "Greyhound" is in fact Keeling's code name. And I saw that there's a Polish-American actor cast as "Eagle," which, as I mentioned, is the Polish destroyer's code name. In the book Viktor has a Royal Navy liaison officer to handle radio conversations; I imagine Hanks and his co-writers decided that it would be less confusing to the audience to have Eagle speak in Polish-accented English. I also noticed there's a black actor fairly prominently up the cast list; presumably he'll be the mess steward who brings Krause his coffee and meals on the bridge, and, I suspect, offer him encouragement.
I just saw that this morning myself. I find myself wondering if it got criticism so they changed it.
I'll be surprised if they don't have the black actor doing something OTHER than mess steward, because they'll get criticized if they do. And of course, that would have been the only job open to a black sailor in 1942. Including Doris Miller.
Of course, if they portray it accurately they'll be criticized for that as well.
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Old 15th May 2020, 01:11 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
In the book, although Krause doesn't actually hear for himself, one of the other escorts mentions that the Germans have an English speaker who's been making rude comments over the radio, so it's not as cheesy as it might seem. The idea of all of those blips (too many, plus the SC radar didn't display contacts that way) is silly, though.
You learn something new every day.
But yes, I too thought all those blips were silly.
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Old 15th May 2020, 03:16 PM   #38
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The idea is actually EXTREMELY stupid, given that the Germans too knew how to do radio direction finding (RDF) and were painfully aware that the Brits are using it. In fact, they had implemented the Kurzsignale just to reduce the time to hopefully below what it took for the (pre-Huff-Duff) systems to triangulate a sub's position. The Brits had captured a copy of the Kurzsignale in 9 May 1941, more than a year before whatever point in 1942 the movie is happening.

And the Germans were already working on the Kurrier system by then. It wouldn't be ready in time to affect the war, but it shows how aware they were that transmissions should be kept as short as possible, and only used when you need to.

The idea that any German captain would unnecessarily broadcast its position to taunt the enemy destroyers over the radio in English is... pure lunacy. It ranks up there with the decision to have a firefight with a destroyer, as lunacy goes.

I'm also not entirely sure when exactly they started putting a spool antenna on the periscope. Depending on whether or not the subs already had that, transmitting could also mean going up on the surface, mounting the radio antenna, and then transmitting. And then you had to take it down and carry it inside before diving, because otherwise you'd have some thick-ish cables running through the hatch, preventing it from closing. Making it even more of a lunacy to do that just to broadcast your position to an enemy who has RDF and ranging radar, so they can just lob a few shells at your position from like 20km.

But even with a spool antenna, essentially you're telling them in which direction to look for your periscope.
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Old 16th May 2020, 05:36 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
The idea is actually EXTREMELY stupid, given that the Germans too knew how to do radio direction finding (RDF) and were painfully aware that the Brits are using it. In fact, they had implemented the Kurzsignale just to reduce the time to hopefully below what it took for the (pre-Huff-Duff) systems to triangulate a sub's position. The Brits had captured a copy of the Kurzsignale in 9 May 1941, more than a year before whatever point in 1942 the movie is happening.

And the Germans were already working on the Kurrier system by then. It wouldn't be ready in time to affect the war, but it shows how aware they were that transmissions should be kept as short as possible, and only used when you need to.

The idea that any German captain would unnecessarily broadcast its position to taunt the enemy destroyers over the radio in English is... pure lunacy. It ranks up there with the decision to have a firefight with a destroyer, as lunacy goes.

I'm also not entirely sure when exactly they started putting a spool antenna on the periscope. Depending on whether or not the subs already had that, transmitting could also mean going up on the surface, mounting the radio antenna, and then transmitting. And then you had to take it down and carry it inside before diving, because otherwise you'd have some thick-ish cables running through the hatch, preventing it from closing. Making it even more of a lunacy to do that just to broadcast your position to an enemy who has RDF and ranging radar, so they can just lob a few shells at your position from like 20km.

But even with a spool antenna, essentially you're telling them in which direction to look for your periscope.

Was Huff Duff able to track TBS radio frequencies, though? My understanding is that it was not. The British had a system for intercepting tactical voice-radio transmissions called Headache, which was being introduced in 1942, but from what I've read its purpose was intelligence gathering, rather than direction finding.

However, even if the Germans believed, rightly or wrongly, that any transmissions they made on the escorts' voice circuit could not be tracked, using it to taunt the Allies would still have been a dumb idea, because that would have tipped them off that their communications were not secure. In fact, in the book, Krause finds out about the taunting when one of the corvette captains requests permission to move into blinker range, because he doesn't want the Germans to overhear his message.

ETA: That said, it's still not inconceivable that a U-boat commander might have made such a transmission, either from stupidity or bravado, even if it was unlikely.
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Old 16th May 2020, 06:43 AM   #40
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Well, it's not inconceivable. You'd think one of the other captains would signal to him to shut TF up, though.

That said, to the best of my knowledge, subs didn't use radio to coordinate attacks and didn't have a separate radio for that. Reason being that it's not even very useful tactically. You barely had speed to keep up with a convoy even on the surface, and were slower than any tanker when submerged, so you weren't going to do complex tactical maneuvers. The extent of wolfpack coordination was basically to communicate the position and bearing of a convoy, then a rendezvous point would be set up in its path, and any subs that could get there in time would go there and wait to ambush the convoy. Then you'd fire as many torpedoes as you can at how many targets you can, and try to escape the response of the destroyers. That was it. There was nothing you could possibly coordinate once the fight had started. Most of the communication was long range to setup the attack beforehand, and that went through the main long-range radio.

Detecting tactical communications applied more to stuff like German destroyer raids and such.
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