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Tags New Zealand incidents , transgender incidents , transgender issues

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Old Today, 02:04 AM   #2241
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
If you (a woman) can have a sexual fantasy (either heterosexual or lesbian) in which you are the woman, then you are classified as autogynophilic by the author of that paper.
Wanting to be what you are is not the same as wanting to be different than you are. You can't use women as a control group for men in that manner, it doesn't make sense. The significance behind autogynophilia simply doesn't apply to women. A proper analogue would be autophalophilia, which would apply to women and not men.
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Old Today, 02:06 AM   #2242
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Wanting to be what you are is not the same as wanting to be different than you are. You can't use women as a control group for men in that manner, it doesn't make sense. The significance behind autogynophilia simply doesn't apply to women. A proper analogue would be autophalophilia, which would apply to women and not men.
Yes that is exactly my point, as I had already pointed out way back when tyr first made that post:
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
That reference was the best laugh in a while. Of course women will get arousal from the thought of themselves as women because they are women. The equivalent definition for the paraphilia for women is not "are you aroused by the thought of yourself as a woman?" but "are you aroused by the thought of yourself as a man?" You can't just take a definition which was specifically designed for one sex (male transsexuals in this case) and apply it to the other sex without correcting for that. By your logic I can claim that 95% of women are homosexual:

Step 1: I restrict consideration to male persons, and state a definition for homosexuality appropriate for that group, namely "are you aroused by the thought of sex with a man?"

Step 2: I now apply that definition to the other sex without correcting for that, and ask a bunch of women "are you aroused by the thought of sex with a man?" I find almost all of them say "yes."

Step 3: Profit! I've just proven that most women are homosexual.
Blanchard was specifically studying male transsexuals, so his questionaire was "Are you aroused by the thought of yourself as a woman?" Which the author of the paper tyr referenced then literally applied to women without correcting for that.
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Old Today, 02:11 AM   #2243
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
I think the above post has most of the primary points I've seen that are simply not consistent with current evidence
Which evidence, exactly? What you posted in the first of those two posts? You mention criteria for being trans. What are they, if not merely self-identification (and forgive me for asking; in these conversations it might not be easy to keep track of each poster's claims or conclusions on this)
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Old Today, 02:14 AM   #2244
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
I expected Belz's 'no, you!' obstinate response, but come now, you're better than this.
There's nothing "no you" about my response to that post. There's a "no", however, but that isn't what you're talking about.
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Old Today, 02:14 AM   #2245
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
What does lesbian porn have to do with this? The question is: Are you aroused by the thought of yourself as a woman?
And I'm saying that for me at least, the answer is yes. And yet I do not have gender dysphoria.

I don't have to watch porn, btw, I just threw that out as an example. I can do it all in my head and imagine the whole thing. In the fantasy, I am a woman. That's pretty normal too.
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Old Today, 02:17 AM   #2246
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
And I'm saying that for me at least, the answer is yes. And yet I do not have gender dysphoria.

I don't have to watch porn, btw, I just threw that out as an example. I can do it all in my head and imagine the whole thing. In the fantasy, I am a woman. That's pretty normal too.
Exactly, it's pretty normal for a woman to imagine herself as a woman in sexual fantasies and that has nothing to do with gender dysphoria. Just like it is pretty normal for a man to imagine himself as a man in sexual fantasies. So Blanchard's point stands and the paper tyr referenced to refute it is literal nonsense.
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Old Today, 02:35 AM   #2247
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Exactly, it's pretty normal for a woman to imagine herself as a woman in sexual fantasies and that has nothing to do with gender dysphoria. Just like it is pretty normal for a man to imagine himself as a man in sexual fantasies. So Blanchard's point stands and the paper tyr referenced to refute it is literal nonsense.
I'm a man though. Did you think I was a woman? Maybe I should have mentioned that. I thought it was known, or should be clear from the context, but apparently not.
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Old Today, 02:53 AM   #2248
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I'm a man though. Did you think I was a woman? Maybe I should have mentioned that. I thought it was known, or should be clear from the context, but apparently not.
Oh, apologies, I thought you were a woman because you used yourself as an example in the discussion about that paper over whether women can be autogynophilic - I must have misunderstood the context there.

But now I understand what you meant, that because you can imagine yourself as a woman in a lesbian sexual fantasy it doesn't mean you have gender dysphoria. That would of course be true but not of much relevance because it's not clinical and the study and theory is regarding the clinical population of people with gender dysphoria. I sometimes swear but it doesn't mean I have Tourette's, I sometimes sleep badly but it doesn't mean I have insomnia, I may at some point wrongly think someone has it in for me but that doesn't mean I have paranoid schizophrenia, etc. It's perfectly normal for the general population to have low-degree similarities with clinical populations, what matters is more the degree to which symptoms appear than a binary "they exist or don't exist."
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Old Today, 02:57 AM   #2249
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Autogynaephilia doesn't always progress to the point of the man wanting to change sex. Many never go further than cross-dressing in private.
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Old Today, 03:32 AM   #2250
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Oh, the above links don't address the 'well I identify as Napoleon!' refrain that displays, at this point, a willful ignorance of trans gender mental health.
I'm not a massive fan of the "Hardy har I identify as an Apache Attack Helicopter" stuff either, (too mean spirited for my taste) but there is a reason this sort of thing keeps popping up in this discussion, because "Because they say so, stop asking questions" keeps being the only level we get any explanation of what exactly people who "identify" as another gender are actually saying.

Either self identity is ultimate and unquestionable or it isn't. A simple statement of "I understand and believe them when they say 'I feel like I'm an man or woman' without literally agreeing with them that that statement changes reality" has to at least be something we can put on the table without getting shouted down as bigots.
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Old Today, 04:04 AM   #2251
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm not a massive fan of the "Hardy har I identify as an Apache Attack Helicopter" stuff either, (too mean spirited for my taste) but there is a reason this sort of thing keeps popping up in this discussion, because "Because they say so, stop asking questions" keeps being the only level we get any explanation of what exactly people who "identify" as another gender are actually saying.

Either self identity is ultimate and unquestionable or it isn't. A simple statement of "I understand and believe them when they say 'I feel like I'm an man or woman' without literally agreeing with them that that statement changes reality" has to at least be something we can put on the table without getting shouted down as bigots.
Exactly. The way I see the Apache Attack Helicopter meme is not, at least in the context of this thread, to belittle trans people or to deny their existence, but to point out that mere self-identification is not enough to overturn something that has, throughout all of our history, been determined objectively and externally. Having a belief about one's characteristic does not make that characteristic objectively true.
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Old Today, 05:05 AM   #2252
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Exactly, it's pretty normal for a woman to imagine herself as a woman in sexual fantasies and that has nothing to do with gender dysphoria. Just like it is pretty normal for a man to imagine himself as a man in sexual fantasies. So Blanchard's point stands and the paper tyr referenced to refute it is literal nonsense.
I actually missed that paper. You are right. It is ridiculous.

I read through one of the other papers Tyr cited, the one by Serano, and that one is not ridiculous. I think it has some legitimate criticism of Blanchard's work, but it also has some issues. Unfortunately, I never managed to find the right combination of time and interest to really try and analyze what it said. My reading of it was superficial. The thing that struck me about it was that it seemed to kind of misrepresented Blanchard's work, and seemed to say that if there were any flaws at all, Blanchard's work could be discounted. Blanchard was working in the late 1980s. I would be amazed if anyone of that era managed to get everything 100% correct.


My own take is that autogynephilia is certainly a thing. There's no doubt about it. Serano even acknowledges it by subdividing what Blanchard called autogynephilia into two different phenomena, and labelling one of them as cross-gender arousal, and noting that no one would deny the existence of that phenomenon.


I think the real controversy is about the extent to which these autogynephilic fantasies contribute to a desire to change genders in late onset transgender individuals. Perhaps I will take another crack at that paper and see if I can make sense of Serano's criticisms.

As an amateur, it just seems to me that if a lot of people experience cross gender arousal, wouldn't at least a handful of them decide to take it to the extreme?

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Old Today, 05:26 AM   #2253
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Yes, I think that's the point. Nobody denies that autogynaephilia exists. Blanchard coined the term, but only to replace an earlier term he thought was a bit demeaning or needlessly negative. Automono-something-or-other. Plenty men achnowledge that they have it. Plenty transwomen acknowledge that this is at the root of their drive to become women. Many, many women have distressing accounts of their partner's autogynaephilia.

The apparently contentious part of Blanchard's hypothesis - which as Myriad said, dates back to the 1980s and would not be expected to be complete and immune from modification - is that almost all MtF trans people fit into one of two categories, of which AGP is one. There seems to be little or no controversy over the other category, homosexual transsexuals, who are very effeminate homosexual males who usually grew up as very effeminate little boys. It's the other category, the men who grew up as boyish boys but some time after puberty - sometimes a very long time after puberty, also after marriage and children and a masculine career, often in the armed forces - decide to transition, which is contentious.

Some of these men are autgynaephiles, without any doubt. Blanchard, who spent a career studying this, says he can count on the fingers of one hand the number of post-puberty-presenting trans-identifying males he has encountered who are not autogynaephiles. (He also says there's a lot of denial going on in many of these patients.) The question seems to be, is he wrong about that? Is there another, substantial, group of trans-identifying men who are neither HSTS nor AGP?

Blanchard, although retired, still keeps up with his subject and still maintains that he has seen no credible evidence to that effect. The trans activist lobby disagrees, and has put considerable effort into trying to discredit Blanchard. However, their efforts are propaganda and not science. They concentrate on trying to deny that AGP is a thing, or that it's involved in trans-identifying behaviour at all. What they have never done is to present credible evidence for the existence of this third group, and a scientific hypothesis about what's going on psychologically if it's not AGP.
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Old Today, 05:46 AM   #2254
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Nobody denies that autogynaephilia exists.

https://twitter.com/0hJamie/status/929493278445228033


https://twitter.com/buzzorhowl/statu...38127564427264


https://twitter.com/transiness/statu...09418756845568


https://twitter.com/aedison/status/1021854180309442562


https://twitter.com/curvebreaker/sta...41235364192258


https://twitter.com/MxBrettUnicorn/s...75008320462848
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Old Today, 05:47 AM   #2255
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I think she meant nobody here.
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Old Today, 06:08 AM   #2256
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I think she meant nobody here.
I suppose we shall see. It's my (admittedly limited) experience that Blanchard's theories are downright heterodox in most modern LGBTQIA+ spaces.
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Old Today, 06:23 AM   #2257
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I suppose we shall see. It's my (admittedly limited) experience that Blanchard's theories are downright heterodox in most modern LGBTQIA+ spaces.
We really need a new, pronounceable term for all that.
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Old Today, 06:38 AM   #2258
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
We really need a new, pronounceable term for all that.
QUeer
Intersex
Lesbian
Transgender
Bisexual
Asexual &
Gay*
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Old Today, 06:49 AM   #2259
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
QUeer
Intersex
Lesbian
Transgender
Bisexual
Asexual &
Gay*


I'm of the opinion that "queer", which is out of use anyway, could be the umbrella term for that.

On the other hand, intersex, asexuals and trans are unrelated to the other ones.
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Old Today, 06:55 AM   #2260
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Basically I think the question is does every new variation require an entire new identity, or what "identity" even means outside of anything it's... ya know identifying.

But again until we get something, anything beyond "Shut up and just nod your head at what ever they say" we can't take this discussion anywhere.
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Old Today, 07:05 AM   #2261
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I’ve read about and seen some stuff written by the type of people Blanchard is talking about so I wouldn’t deny they’re out there. I do still get the impression that they’re the outliers among outliers, though, and that SRS doesn’t turn out to be a good therapeutic option for them anyways. The most “SRS is a lie that doctors trick you into, you’ll regret it” stuff I’ve read has been from them. It seems clear to me that a reasonable therapist or doctor presented with apparent gender dysphoria would take this into account. I have no reason to believe they don’t already do so.
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Old Today, 07:07 AM   #2262
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Basically I think the question is does every new variation require an entire new identity, or what "identity" even means outside of anything it's... ya know identifying.

But again until we get something, anything beyond "Shut up and just nod your head at what ever they say" we can't take this discussion anywhere.
I mean, in the case of gender dysphoria, "shut up and just nod your head at what ever they say" works pretty well for almost everything. I can think of two obvious exceptions, though. One is that men probably shouldn't be able to grant themselves access to spaces reserved for women. The other is that medical staff need to know exactly what they're dealing with.

Unfortunately, between those two exceptions, I think you have to end up treating gender dysphoria as a mental illness, rather than a life choice. It's like schizophrenia, not like marriage.
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Old Today, 07:19 AM   #2263
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I mean, in the case of gender dysphoria, "shut up and just nod your head at what ever they say" works pretty well for almost everything. I can think of two obvious exceptions, though. One is that men probably shouldn't be able to grant themselves access to spaces reserved for women. The other is that medical staff need to know exactly what they're dealing with.
I agree with your overall point, but that first point is one of the core arguments of the current... movement. Access to spaces meant for the gender they "assign" themselves to is a major, if not the major, talking point for transgenders right now. An "Okay everything except that..." solution can't really work.

The second point, medical attention, is so obvious true I don't really understand how anyone can argue against although some obviously do.

House: "There's a tumor on your testicle."
Patient: "But I'm a girl!"
House: "Well the X-ray says otherwise."
Patient: "Lookit me! I'm a girl! How can you say I'm not a girl!"
Patient's Father: "What are you saying she has cancer?"
House: "No. He has cancer. On his left testicle."
*Beat as both the patient and father adsorb this new information"
House: (While walking out of the room) "We'll cut your balls off, you'll be fine."

*Later when it comes out that the father had been abusing the girl."
Father: "Is this some kind of sick joke?"
House: "No, a joke would be if I called you a homo."
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Old Today, 07:31 AM   #2264
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Basically I think the question is does every new variation require an entire new identity, or what "identity" even means outside of anything it's... ya know identifying.
Yes, they do. It's called a name.
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Old Today, 07:31 AM   #2265
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post

Don't be silly. Autogynaephilia is a recognised condition. That a proportion of TIMs are autogynaephiles is not in any dispute. That another proportion of TIMs are very feminine homosexual men is not in any dispute. That penny-numbers of men have identified as trans because of dissociative personality disorder is not in any dispute.

The dispute is over the claim that these three groups are all there are. That those who are demonstrably neither homosexual nor suffering from DPD are in the AGP group. Blanchard says that in his extensive professional experience he has not come across anyone who did not fit in this category.

Those who claim there is another category do nothing but handwave about lady-brains and women's souls. I certainly know which side of the dispute my own encounters with TIMs favour.
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Old Today, 07:33 AM   #2266
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Unfortunately, between those two exceptions, I think you have to end up treating gender dysphoria as a mental illness, rather than a life choice. It's like schizophrenia, not like marriage.
In before you're called a name for comparing dysphoria to schizophrenia.

Thing is, mental illness is not a curse or something to be ashamed of. In a way it's pretty common, and we don't -- I think -- think less of people who have it.
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Old Today, 07:34 AM   #2267
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Like I said, once you make those exceptions, the whole idea of trans as healthy life choice falls apart.

We don't rearrange society to cater to the delusions of schizophrenics. Why dysphorics?
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Old Today, 07:38 AM   #2268
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I was watching a documentary about a theatrical troupe on a tour, half watching at least as I was doing other things.

I walked back to see a ( rather ugly ) guy painting his face and lamented to the camera that " nobody brought womens clothes, it's all mens clothes here. ". Then it was made clear the were heading out for a drink.

It struck me that probably isn't a common problem for 98% of us. But in his world the night was ruined for bad planning leaving home.

It most certainly isn't something I have ever seen before. This should never be any problem in my world. But here it was on tv a major issue to someone.
I try to be tolerant and understanding and all that but this was weird.

A little more mystery and privacy on the part of the outliers would go a long way in keeping s surface level of acceptance going. The more they make public the harder the path.
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Old Today, 07:52 AM   #2269
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Like I said, once you make those exceptions, the whole idea of trans as healthy life choice falls apart.

We don't rearrange society to cater to the delusions of schizophrenics. Why dysphorics?
My gut reaction is to go "Because they've had the 'victim' label officially decreed upon them by the Progressive Master Race and there is not defense against that."

But... looking at it deeper because "gender disparage" mostly exist for things that shouldn't exist to... disparage against in the first place. A man wearing a dress isn't going through "gender disparage" he's just doing something in opposition to some stupid made up standard that shouldn't exist in the first place.

Now, yeah when if and when it reaches the level of "I refuse to get tested for Testicular Cancer because I identify as a woman"... I can't argue that. That's reality denial and dangerous. I can't square that circle.

Again I'm still at: Stupid made up standards put on the genders shouldn't exist to subvert, biological identifying qualities aren't up for debate, and there's no grey area that's not pure semantics or "how many legs does a dog have if you call a tail a leg" word games between those two.
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Old Today, 07:59 AM   #2270
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Holy hell, I just looked up some stuff about that JY guy. He/she (not sure which it is as he/she seems to use both male and female names) needs to be permabanned from ALL public restrooms, everywhere - what a bloody sicko (pun NOT intended). Just to be clear, I read this person's own statements; not secondhand interpretations of them.

I want to find him/her and yell at him/her.
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Old Today, 08:09 AM   #2271
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
In before you're called a name for comparing dysphoria to schizophrenia.

Thing is, mental illness is not a curse or something to be ashamed of. In a way it's pretty common, and we don't -- I think -- think less of people who have it.
Yes.

I don't mean to disparage. But mental illness does have a social stigma, which is unfortunate but probably unavoidable. If trans people say, "it's a treatment, not a choice", they'll have to live with the stigma. That sucks.

On the other hand, if trans people say, "it's a choice, not a treatment", then that opens up a whole other can of worms, and a whole other stigma that is much harder to condemn.
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Old Today, 08:13 AM   #2272
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
I was watching a documentary about a theatrical troupe on a tour, half watching at least as I was doing other things.

I walked back to see a ( rather ugly ) guy painting his face and lamented to the camera that " nobody brought womens clothes, it's all mens clothes here. ". Then it was made clear the were heading out for a drink.

It struck me that probably isn't a common problem for 98% of us. But in his world the night was ruined for bad planning leaving home.
I think I kind of understand what you're trying to say, but this was a pretty confusing way to put it.

I think at least 98% of us have had the common experience of an event ruined by bad planning. Hell, I've spoiled a night out for not thinking ahead about attire, more than once.

Quote:
A little more mystery and privacy on the part of the outliers would go a long way in keeping s surface level of acceptance going. The more they make public the harder the path.
I understand the sentiment, and it's a tempting solution, but telling problematic minorities to keep "out of sight, out of mind" of the majority is probably not fair to them nor conducive to open dialogue and better solutions.
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Old Today, 08:22 AM   #2273
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I think this situation: (nsfw) Woman Fired Shots..../ is a perfect example of just how confusing, misleading and obfuscating the whole subject is.

This doesn't really seem to be about equality for a minority nearly as much as about turning the world into a mystical, smoky place where reason and objective reality can't be trusted and science can no longer explain the thunder or the rain.

Can you imagine how confusing Amber Alerts could become in the next decades?

"A 40-year-old woman is believed to have kidnapped two nine-year-old girls" may become utterly incomprehensible.

Are we looking for a female with two female children?
A female with both a female and male child?
A female with two male children?

A male with two female children?
A male with both a female and male child?
A male with two male children?

Are the "girls" even children?
Man identifies as a child

If I have to venture a guess, I'd say this whole social movement is less about allowing everyone to enjoy an identity they're happy with, and more about making sure in 25 years no one can communicate effectively at all.
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Old Today, 08:50 AM   #2274
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
"A 40-year-old woman is believed to have kidnapped two nine-year-old girls" may become utterly incomprehensible.
"A binary-aged pre-millennial male-assigned woman is feeling-confirmed to have non-consensually taken approximately two paedophile-approved female-assigned women."
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Old Today, 08:53 AM   #2275
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Are the "girls" even children?
Man identifies as a child
I really think that was a poe.
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Old Today, 09:00 AM   #2276
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I really think that was a poe.
(nods) Probably. But it does serve to illustrate just how far out-of-current-norm things could go if someone doesn't draw some bright lines.


Of course...I could be wrong. Maybe tomorrow I'll wake up remembering I'm really "Buttercup"; a neophyte movie starlet with the all the due fame, fortune and travel opportunities. If you don't give me the part in your next masterpiece you're a bigot, if you don't line up for my book you're phobic, and if you don't pay for my plane tickets you're racist, too!
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Old Today, 09:09 AM   #2277
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
(nods) Probably. But it does serve to illustrate just how far out-of-current-norm things could go if someone doesn't draw some bright lines.


Of course...I could be wrong. Maybe tomorrow I'll wake up remembering I'm really "Buttercup"; a neophyte movie starlet with the all the due fame, fortune and travel opportunities. If you don't give me the part in your next masterpiece you're a bigot, if you don't line up for my book you're phobic, and if you don't pay for my plane tickets you're racist, too!
I really identify as emperor Trajan and I DEMAND to be given the territory of the old Roman Empire, you inconsiderate bigots!

You can identify opinions, feelings and beliefs by self-reporting, but not objective characteristics. The far-left is attempting to redefine gender as the former rather than the latter. On the face of it, why not, right? But then it leads to a host of annoying issues, like the sports one.
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Old Today, 09:35 AM   #2278
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Don't be silly. Autogynaephilia is a recognised condition. That a proportion of TIMs are autogynaephiles is not in any dispute.
Evidently you don't travel in woke circles, wherein mention of autogynephilia is questionable science at best, conversationally taboo at worst.

Happy to see ISF isn't the sort of place where this conversation gets shut down by a wave of public shaming, but I don't have enough time or expertise to tell whether Blanchard or his critics (e.g. Charles Moser) happen to have the better supported argument. Come to think of it, I’m not sure whether it really matters, so long as people just keep it in their pants.
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