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Old Yesterday, 03:03 PM   #2241
theprestige
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
In case of Sealion in this discussion, it's almost the cknverse.

The enemy might do this, but then they're ******.
Report: If the enemy succeeds at this, we're ******.
Appendix to the Report: If the enemy tries this, they're ******.
Battle Plan from the Report: Let the enemy do this if they want.
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Old Today, 01:37 AM   #2242
HansMustermann
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Well, probably not just "let them do this". Someone would have calculated how many troops are nearby, how fast they can get their ass into gear and round up the paratroopers from the park while they're still wondering where in the urban maze their kit landed, etc.

But yeah, indeed that is the point of thinking up all possible scenarios. You come up with counters.
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Old Today, 03:00 AM   #2243
Henri McPhee
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
2. Yes, during 1940 there was a small skirmish going on in the air. Yes, the bombing of English cities gave the impression to the UK population that things were going really badly. Guess what - it was a false impression. the actual resilience of the civilian population, coupled with the ever increasing gap between the two air forces meant that the Germans were never going to win the air war.
I just think that is complacency. What with no Spitfires?
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Old Today, 03:13 AM   #2244
Garrison
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I just think that is complacency. What with no Spitfires?
Hang on are you suddenly jumping back to 1938? Because of course in 1940 the RAF certainly did have Spitfires, and Hurricanes of course, and we know that the loss rates for the Luftwaffe in terms of aircraft and crews was far worse than that of the RAF in 1940. In 1938 the Luftwaffe themselves believed that a bombing campaign against Britain was impossible and if you are proposing an airborne landing in Britain in 1938, well even by your low standards that's idiotic.
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Old Today, 03:19 AM   #2245
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I just think that is complacency. What with no Spitfires?
If you're jumping back to 1938 then no Spitfires is no problem as the Germans have no fighters, and pretty much no bombers, that can reach Britain.
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Old Today, 03:28 AM   #2246
Border Reiver
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Henri, you have to understand one thing about paratroopers, though:

First of all they have no heavy equipment. No artillery, no Stugs, nada. That's not ideal in any case, but even less so if you want to do some city fighting.

Second, you lack supplies from that point on. Paratroopers are useful for a surprise drop and grab some undefended objective, but you have to move in some real army there FAST. Because paratroopers lack the "endurance" to hold anything for more than a day or two.

Third, at the time they tended to come down with just a pistol on them. Anything else, including rifles, came down in separate paradropped crates. So they'd then have to gather themselves, find the crates, and arm themselves.

And that's one reason why you don't want to paradrop in a city. You really don't want to be in the park with your pistol, your other equipment to be in a whole other park or on a house, and only God knows where your officer landed. You're very vulnerable in that time.

Fourth, you're even more vulnerable in the air while you glide down slowly, and your airplane before that is a weak transport airplane too. You REALLY don't want to paradrop over a place with massive numbers of FLAK batteries. Such as, you know, London.

So while I'm not surprised that the British generals thought of the possibility too -- it is their JOB to think up every scenario in advance -- I wouldn't take it for all that huge a threat.
Good analysis - it doesn't quite apply to Commonwealth and American paratroopers as they jumped with their rifles and LMGs, but in all other respects, its accurate.

Paratroopers are light troops meant to be inserted very close to their objective, take it and hold it until relieved by heavier forces. They don't have a lot of ammo, or other supplies as they need to carry everything on their backs. Fallschrimjager in London parks would be a propaganda win for Germany on Day 1 at best. On Day 2 they would be POWs and a propaganda victory for the Allies.
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Old Today, 05:42 AM   #2247
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Seriously though none of this has any bearing on Appeasement except insofar as Chamberlain's policies helped put Nazi Germany in control of the Channel Coast. The latest of dozens of Sealion threads on Alternatehistory.com clocked up 130 pages, most of which amounted to refuting the idiotic claims of an Henriesque Sealionista/Wehraboo. This thread is exhausting enough with dragging Sealion into it.
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Old Today, 08:23 AM   #2248
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Henri, you have to understand one thing about paratroopers, though:

First of all they have no heavy equipment. No artillery, no Stugs, nada. That's not ideal in any case, but even less so if you want to do some city fighting.

And in 1938 they didn't have any sort of anti-armor capability. They didn't even have anti-tank rifles or grenades, let alone Panzerfäuste or Panzerschrecke. So even the lightly armored Mark VIs of the Royal Tank Corps could have flattened them.
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Old Today, 09:22 AM   #2249
SpitfireIX
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I just think that is complacency. What with no Spitfires?

Assuming you're talking about 1938 (even though the post to which you're responding expressly mentions 1940), I renew my earlier question, which you ignored as usual: What operational aircraft did the Luftwaffe have in 1938 that the Hurricane couldn't handle?

I also pose a related question based on a point someone made earlier: If, as you've claimed, the Gladiator was so useless in 1938, how is that Gladiators managed to score so many kills in 1940, including several He 111s?
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Old Today, 09:25 AM   #2250
theprestige
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It's like arguing with an off-brand Harry Turtledove.

The Luftwaffe of 1940 defeats the RAF of 1938, enabling a successful Sealion in 1938. How the Luftwaffe of 1940 makes it to 1938 is left as an exercise for the reader. Perhaps they were flying from the deck of the USS Nimitz.

ETA: There's a bit of waffle about this on the internet that I think makes a lot of sense:

https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comm...id_or_awesome/

Last edited by theprestige; Today at 09:27 AM.
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Old Today, 09:45 AM   #2251
jimbob
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's like arguing with an off-brand Harry Turtledove. [1]

The Luftwaffe of 1940 defeats the RAF of 1938, enabling a successful Sealion in 1938. How the Luftwaffe of 1940 makes it to 1938 is left as an exercise for the reader. Perhaps they were flying from the deck of the USS Nimitz.

ETA: There's a bit of waffle about this on the internet that I think makes a lot of sense:[2]

https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comm...id_or_awesome/
[1]You're right, but that's a horrible thought - Turtledove himself is pretty flakey, when alien space-lizards are the least implausible part of the story, I'm going to struggle to suspend disbelief.

[2]
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