|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
![]() |
#921 |
... and your little dog too.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 14,135
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#922 |
Mistral, mistral wind...
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 4,525
|
By "reads carefully," of course, you mean "cherry-picks the part where he used the word 'peacefully' and ignores the parts where he used the word 'fight' in speaking to a mob of people he'd been inciting with lies for two months beforehand." Because here's the thing- the article of impeachment isn't only based on that one speech. Here's a relevant excerpt from the text (you can read the whole thing at NPR):
Quote:
|
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#923 |
Thinker
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: USA
Posts: 192
|
Incitement to violence is not protected speech. Seditious conspiracy is not protected speech.
This isn't some new, unprecedented idea. It's pretty commonplace stuff. The only issue is whether Trump is, in fact, guilty of the incitement and sedition of which he is accused. If he is, the First Amendment does not shield him. This is well-established, long-standing, mainstream practice. Stop trying to pretend it's some recent invention of "progressives". |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#924 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 17,319
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#925 |
Mistral, mistral wind...
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 4,525
|
|
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#926 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,763
|
|
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi Wollen owns the stage |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#927 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 6,602
|
The latest Legal Eagle video on YouTube goes pretty deeply on the concept of protected speech, whether what Trump said matters, and whether it matters during an impeachment trial.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#928 |
New Blood
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 1
|
But what exactly did he say that truly said hey go storm the capital? I seen his tweet and I did not take what he wrote as that, maybe I am logical or he’ll I might be crazy. **** makes you wonder.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#929 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,763
|
|
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi Wollen owns the stage |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#930 |
Scholar
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 117
|
Whatever you're attempting to explain here, it seems political speech is given more leeway, but the fact of the matter is best explained by this guy:
https://youtu.be/XwqAInN9HWI ETA: Ninja'd by Fast Eddie B |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#931 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,763
|
|
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi Wollen owns the stage |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#932 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,745
|
Tell you what trolls.
Next time a cop pulls you over, don't argue about or fight the ticket but engage the cop in a broad philosophical debate about police and their place in society. See what happens. |
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#933 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 27,204
|
I was under the impression that impeachment, unlike the first amendment, involves the conduct of a particular job namely that of the Presidency, and adherence to the oath of that office. Metacristi seems to be conflating the two. I suspect that actions which might be considered crimes against the presidential office, the people of the country, and the oath of upholding the Constitution could include utterances, actions and inactions that are not by themselves prosecutable under the first amendment.
|
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard) |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#934 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 27,906
|
You so funny.
Sorry, there is nothing torturous about it. Free Speech is not nor has it ever been an unlimited right. You cannot yell fire in a crowded theater or that you have a bomb at an airport. But, you're right, it is a political act. Do you know what also is a political act? War. The question is did Trump incite an insurrection? I'd argue he was actively committing insurrection. The question is, was the result foreseeable? In my view, it is dishonest to suggest it wasn't. 18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection. Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States. Impeachment is not a criminal procedure and doesn't require the commission of a criminal statute. That isn't what "High Crimes and Misdemeanors" means. |
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#935 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,745
|
|
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#936 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: New York
Posts: 10,169
|
Ah yes, the ol’ “pearls before swine routine”.
Friend, I’ve been reading your posts in this thread with neutral interest (following the discussion, as one does) and all I can suggest is that you might want to visit a more upscale jeweler than you’re used to and maybe pick out a new strand, perhaps with some matching earrings. Also, please read the First Amendment. Oink. |
__________________
My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#937 |
Crazy Little Green Dragon
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 7,301
|
"Conservatives are so much better than libruls because WE value free speech. With that in mind, I have some criticism to share about recent decisions made by Trum-" *right-wing radio host is fired in the middle of the broadcast for criticizing Trump*
Yeah, that's totally valuing free speech, right there. That event wasn't even remotely an isolated incident, either, by the look of it. That's showing that "conservatives" are engaging in much more egregious forms of "cancel culture," then making a big fuss over "cancel culture" as a distraction and diversion. For that matter, when multiple sources have reported and confirmed that a number of Republican representatives voted no to impeach because of believeable death threats made towards them and their families if they voted yes. That's not even remotely acceptable at any level, even if one opines that it's a sure sign that those who were intimidated should not be in politics. Yes, let's be serious. Right-wing extremists have been utterly and completely mangling the 1st Amendment (and 2nd) and have rather effectively convinced a much broader swath of the public that their utter mangling of it is how it actually is. You seem very likely to have fallen for their lies. |
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#938 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,228
|
A very serious question is whether Trump took action to hinder law enforcement at the Capitol.
He was involved in some degree in planning for the rally because he encouraged people to come and was even a speaker. News reports before the rally say that the permit for the rally was for a "March for Trump" rally at the Ellipse. That permit specifically said that although it was titled as a "March" that there would be no march to the Capitol or anywhere else. Trump spoke at the rally and called on the mob to march to the Capitol. That raises the question of whether Trump may have helped organize the event to occur at the Ellipse, about a mile away from the Capitol, so that law enforcement would concentrate on the Ellipse and not the Capitol. There were almost no Federal forces at the Capitol: Park Service, FBI, ATF, etc. Requests for DC National Guard took about 90 minutes to get even approved by the Pentagon. Virginia rapid response teams were held at the border waiting for Pentagon approval to go in to DC. Trump made many changes to positions of Pentagon officials over the last few months. That raises the question of whether he did that to have people in place to ensure that the Capitol would not be properly protected. That is especially disconcerting because the previous Secretary of Defense was terminated by Trump when it was determined that he was a loser. He even raised concerns that there may be an attempted coup and that the Acting Secretary my be complicit with attempt. Now I feel like a crazy conspiracy theorist. But these are issues that need to be investigated. |
__________________
I don't need to fight to prove I'm right. - Baba O'Riley |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#939 |
Muse
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 752
|
What is the 'incitement to insurrection'? Not even a 0.1 truth given the fact that Trump also told his supporters to make their voices heard peacefully. The Democrats lost the chance of a show trial of Trump based on more realistic accusations (like how Trump is rather against democracy) which at least to try to turn as many of his supporters away from him. Finally Trump is in large part the creation of the cultural wars of the last 30 years (fuelled mainly by the 'progressives') and the 'progressive' actions of the Democrats cannot help here. Even if Trump disappears the problem is still here in full, ready for different Trumps to use it. In other order of ideas If Trump is convicted via the 'progressive' tactics used now by the Democrats a dangerous precedent will be created, one which will very likely invite all sort of 'progressive' interferences with free speech, anyone can be a victim in the future. A much better solution is to try to isolate Trump politically and erode his support among his electoral base if the most rational one (put an end to 'progressive' abuse via 'cancel culture' and so on) is out of agenda. |
__________________
“It is often said that knowledge is power, but it might be more correct to say that [critical] thinking is power.” ibn Warraq - Why I am not a Muslim Knight Tube: Brendan O'Neill on identity politics |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#940 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 8,061
|
Sorry, was that meant to be an answer to the question "what lies?"?
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#941 |
Muse
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 752
|
Look mate I had enough to be in defensive only to hear again and again the kind of intolerance toward different views you and others spite here. Actually you have nothing discrediting in any way what i said, if you have the occasion look at what pr. Alan Dershowitz told BC News (it's just now on TV actually), there is a very strong case against impeaching Trump via the lines attempted by the Democrats, even without mentioning that Trump actually told his followers to act peacefully (for it's there in his speech before the assault). Double standards never do justice, protecting free speech is more important than any 'progressive' like 'justice'.
|
__________________
“It is often said that knowledge is power, but it might be more correct to say that [critical] thinking is power.” ibn Warraq - Why I am not a Muslim Knight Tube: Brendan O'Neill on identity politics |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#942 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 28,862
|
|
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#943 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 6,602
|
Also in the speech before the riot he used the word “fight” 20 times. And prior to that he asked followers to join the “Trump Army” to fight the “liberal mob” and to wear a camo MAGA cap to identify themselves as members of that “Army” - for $35 of course, always the scammer.
I’m pretty sure the Impeachment Trial will attempt to present the totality of the pattern of incitement leading up to 1/6 for months - not just cherry pick a single admonition to “act peacefully”. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
Bookmarks |
Thread Tools | |
|
|