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Old 11th July 2018, 09:27 AM   #121
TheGoldcountry
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Did they audition any people with ASL to portray Stephen Hawking before they settled on Cumberbatch? Did they audition any blind people before settling on Jamie Fox for Ray Charles? Did they audition any Germans or Polish actors for Oskar Schindler and Itzhak Stern before deciding on Irish Liam Neeson and ... incredibly complicated ethnic background Ben Kingsley?

Other then this idea that there's some distinct difference between your characteristics and your "identity" I don't see the difference.
Redmayne. (Otherwise, I agree.)
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:30 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Did any trans people audition for the part, or did it go straight to Johanssen?
My understanding is that Johansson wanted to do the project, and invested her own money in order to make it happen. Most movies are not opportunities for most actors. There must be tens of thousands of actors in the greater LA area who did not get considered for this role.

But it's sort of like third-parties who can't win majority support in local or state-wide elections, but still complain that they're not getting a fair shot at the presidency. Or like a local football club that hasn't even qualified for league play, and still complains that they're not getting a fair opportunity to compete in the World Cup. The vast majority of those actors probably understand that they were never going to get considered for a leading role in this movie.

And of course there's nothing stopping transsexual actors and their allies from putting up their own money to make their own movie and express their own values and vision.
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:32 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
Redmayne. (Otherwise, I agree.)
Could have swore I saw Cumberbatch as Hawkings. Maybe it was another film or some sort of BBC production. (My wife watches BBC a lot...)
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:35 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My understanding is that Johansson wanted to do the project, and invested her own money in order to make it happen. Most movies are not opportunities for most actors. There must be tens of thousands of actors in the greater LA area who did not get considered for this role.

But it's sort of like third-parties who can't win majority support in local or state-wide elections, but still complain that they're not getting a fair shot at the presidency. Or like a local football club that hasn't even qualified for league play, and still complains that they're not getting a fair opportunity to compete in the World Cup. The vast majority of those actors probably understand that they were never going to get considered for a leading role in this movie.

And of course there's nothing stopping transsexual actors and their allies from putting up their own money to make their own movie and express their own values and vision.
Plus, her star power will bring attention to the movie and cash to the box office. Beats the exposure of a leading actor without that clout, gender accuracy aside, as a practical point.
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:35 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That's a matter of practically, not morality.

I'd have no issue with a white actor playing a black character through mocap or makeup that was realistic and not "blackface" parody.

Cloud Atlas, for instance, did something along those lines and was entirely non-offensive in my opinion.

Yeah Al Jolson on stage in blackface doing the "Mammy" routine was bad. Minstrel acts were bad. A lot of the old crossdressing jokes that used to be so common in comedy... at the most charitable have not aged well.

But that doesn't forever taint all cross-demographic acting of any kind for all time.
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:36 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Could have swore I saw Cumberbatch as Hawkings. Maybe it was another film or some sort of BBC production. (My wife watches BBC a lot...)

You're right it was a 2004 BBC production

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0395571/

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Old 11th July 2018, 09:36 AM   #127
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And come on...she's yummy
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:38 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Plus, her star power will bring attention to the movie and cash to the box office. Beats the exposure of a leading actor without that clout, gender accuracy aside, as a practical point.
Yes, and this is another reason why the "opportunity for trans actors" argument is a lie. There are currently no trans actors with the star power to make this project an opportunity for anyone. Even if they did somehow manage to acquire the rights, and amass the funds to produce the film.
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:39 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Did they audition any people with ASL to portray Stephen Hawking before they settled on Cumberbatch? Did they audition any blind people before settling on Jamie Fox for Ray Charles? Did they audition any Germans or Polish actors for Oskar Schindler and Itzhak Stern before deciding on Irish Liam Neeson and ... incredibly complicated ethnic background Ben Kingsley?

Other then this idea that there's some distinct difference between your characteristics and your "identity" I don't see the difference.
Do you think it would be inappropriate to cast a white actor to portray MLK in a biopic?

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Old 11th July 2018, 09:50 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Do you don't think it would be inappropriate to cast a white actor to portray MLK in a biopic?
"Do you don't think?"

Yes, I think it would be. Being black is an inherent part of the role.

A Puerto Rican plays Alexander Hamilton. I think half of the USA doesn't realize that Puerto Rico is part of the US.
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:50 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Do you don't think it would be inappropriate to cast a white actor to portray MLK in a biopic?
As a matter of the craft of acting, not inappropriate at all.
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:51 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Now that we're apparently suddenly redefining the abbreviation "trans" to stand for "transvestite" instead of "transsexual"
Not instead, as well as. ĎTransí is used as a broad term, covering all who are not comfortable with the gender they were assigned at birth. Iím not sure itís all that sudden, maybe itís the first youíve heard of it.
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:52 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
"Do you don't think?"

Yes, I think it would be. Being black is an inherent part of the role.

A Puerto Rican plays Alexander Hamilton. I think half of the USA doesn't realize that Puerto Rico is part of the US.
I agree. Thanks for pointing out the unclear part.
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:54 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Do you don't think it would be inappropriate to cast a white actor to portray MLK in a biopic?
If he, or for that matter, she, could play the role convincingly, why not? Hard to picture, as the visual approximation matters with a well known figure, but why not?
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:57 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
If he, or for that matter, she, could play the role convincingly, why not? Hard to picture, as the visual approximation matters with a well known figure, but why not?
What do you think the reaction would be if a studio did that?
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Old 11th July 2018, 10:07 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
What do you think the reaction would be if a studio did that?
'My, how progressive of them to be color blind!'

No?
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Old 11th July 2018, 10:13 AM   #137
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It's too bad Tom Cruise already bogarted the role - I wouldn't mind seeing Denzel Washington or Will Smith play Jack Reacher.
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Old 11th July 2018, 10:57 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
"I was expecting something more substantive. Oh well." was a rude, dismissive post to what was my genuine response.
But your response wasn't genuine. I asked you to elaborate, and by your own admission you didn't.

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I could have chosen to elaborate, but why bother when I'm not convinced you will take anything I say in good faith?
Because doing otherwise is rude and dismissive. It is within your rights to be rude and dismissive, it's not actually against the membership agreement, but that's still what you've done.
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Old 11th July 2018, 11:09 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...do you actually understand what my argument was?

Lets pretend (because it appears you have no interest in looking it up) that Jean Marie Gill didn't "identify as trans."

Does that suddenly mean that trans folk will magically start getting acting jobs as cis folk?

My premise isn't falsified. Trans folk don't get acting jobs as cis folk, they barely get acting jobs as trans folks. That was my premise.
It would mean you're posts are off topic in this thread, as well as being sold evidence of a knee jerk response.

As well when you are saying " actors" you really mean " a list actors". When you have such a small segment of the population as trans and are trying to cross reference that worth such a small section as a list actors, a low to non existent number isn't bigotry is statistics.

Think of it this way.

Think of something bad and rare like a disease or a lightning stike (though both are likely more common than being an a list actor ) now cross reference that with trans victims. Lo and behold you ate going to see the same thing. It isn't that lightning or rare diseases are bigoted is that when your search terms are specific enough is hard to find results.
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Old 11th July 2018, 11:09 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
A Puerto Rican plays Alexander Hamilton. I think half of the USA doesn't realize that Puerto Rico is part of the US.

But an actor from Nevis like Hamilton was not available so they settled for a more general definition of the caribbean.
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Old 11th July 2018, 11:10 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
'My, how progressive of them to be color blind!'
Like Al Jolson in the Jazz Singer.
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Old 11th July 2018, 11:11 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Do you think it would be inappropriate to cast a white actor to portray MLK in a biopic?
If they were an Alaska company and had a nearly impossible time finding one of quality I could understand their choice.
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Old 11th July 2018, 11:57 AM   #143
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This is not an issue of trans-rights or any such nonsense. This is an issue involving the ability to maximize profits on a consumer good to be distributed to the public. Name me one...ONE... transgender actor/actress that could draw as large of a potential audience as SJ. I will patiently await any response.

Never forget, these movies are made with the intent to make money as any capitalist corporation would attempt to do on behalf of the investors. If it was your money, would you hire some C-list actor/actress or SJ, given the opportunity to do either? Seems like an easy decision to me.
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Old 11th July 2018, 12:33 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
ďMy dear transpeople, why donít you just try acting?Ē

They do. Plenty of them.

I suspect the choice to use Scarlett Johansson in the lead role was made for reasons which had little to do with the availability of competent transgender actors.
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Old 11th July 2018, 12:35 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I don't see why it should be controversial. A trans man should be cast to play the part of a trans man.

If they can find one who satisfies the casting director, the director, and the producers.

If not, they'll find someone who does.

Casting Scarlett Johansson probably has as much to do with using a "big draw" name as anything else, and it is purely a business decision. Whether or not it is a wise one will be determined when the movie comes out.

Casting unknowns as leads is always a risky choice from the producers' viewpoint. They tend to go for the safe choice. And it isn't always about ethnic or racial or gender appropriateness.

A classic example was when Audrey Hepburn was cast for the part of Elisa in the film version of. My Fair Lady. Julie Andrews had created to role on stage, and had been an international hit. But even though George Cukor (the director) wanted Andrews, and even Hepburn thought she should get the part, Jack Warner wanted a name with box office draw at the movies, and didn't think Julie Andrews was well known enough outside of fans of the stage.

The punch line was that this left Andrews available to do Mary Poppins. MFL was a runaway at the Oscars and did well at the Golden Globes, but one of the big ones it missed was Best Actress. Andrews won Best Actress at both the Oscars and the Golden Globes for Mary Poppins. At her acceptance speech for the Globes for Berst Actress in Disney's Mary Poppins she had this to say;
Quote:
Thank you very much for this lovely honour. It's a wonderful momento of a very happy time. Finally my thanks to a man who made a wonderful movie and made all this possible in the first place -- Mr Jack Warner.
Quote:
Jack Warner failed to cast Andrews as Eliza Doolitle in My FairLady despite Andrews being the star on Broadway for several years. Had she been cast in My Fair Lady, she would not have been Mary Poppins.
Did Jack Warner make the wrong call? Mebbe, mebbe not. But he made the best call he thought he could as a businessman. Audrey Hepburn got paid $1 million for the part, one of only two women ever to be paid that much for a single movie up to that time ... and they had to dub her singing parts. Did he regret the choice he made? Not according to him.

Putting Scarlett Johansson on the marquee for a movie will always translate into more tickets sold, even if it isn't as politically correct as it ought to be. It will attract investors, and maybe even other actors.
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Old 11th July 2018, 12:37 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
They do. Plenty of them.

I suspect the choice to use Scarlett Johansson in the lead role was made for reasons which had little to do with the availability of competent transgender actors.
I suspect the choice to use Scarlett Johansson in the lead role was made for the reason that it was Scarlett Johansson making the choice. It's not like she picked this project so that she could give the lead role to someone else.
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Old 11th July 2018, 12:44 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I suspect the choice to use Scarlett Johansson in the lead role was made for the reason that it was Scarlett Johansson making the choice. It's not like she picked this project so that she could give the lead role to someone else.

I expect you are right.

This doesn't change the fact that there are plenty of transgender actors around to choose from, if that was seen to be an important consideration.

I think that getting the story told and having it be successful is probably an important consideration as well.

If she feels that she can make it successful by playing the lead, well, it's her nickel.
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:18 PM   #148
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When a trans actor has the clout, talent, charisma and draw of Scarlett Johansson, we can talk about "equal opportunities."

I think this movie will be a challenging test of SJ's acting chops. Such tests used to be valued in American Cinema. I hope that they still are.
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:27 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
When a trans actor has the clout, talent, charisma and draw of Scarlett Johansson, we can talk about "equal opportunities."
And the wonderful catch 22 of them being only chosen for trans roles and of course never the ones that could make a name for themselves. Those always goes to cis actors.
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:33 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Do you think it would be inappropriate to cast a white actor to portray MLK in a biopic?
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
If he, or for that matter, she, could play the role convincingly, why not? Hard to picture, as the visual approximation matters with a well known figure, but why not?
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
As a matter of the craft of acting, not inappropriate at all.
No, it would not.

A biopic demands authenticity; a white actor playing MLK doesn't get past this first hurdle. It would be no more appropriate than Yaphet Kotto playing Adolph Hitler. For a parody, or a comedy, OK, you can take more licence and actually use the gross miscasting as a comedic or plot device.

Oh, and if you think this is all about race, neither would it be appropriate for Hitler (5'8Ĺ") to be portrayed by Danny DeVito (4'10") or Richard Kiel (7'2").

It could be financial suicide to cast as above for a biopic because you risk alienating a large part of your audience. One of the major reasons why "Stalin" (1992) was such a success is that the actor who portrayed him, Robert Duvall looks enough like him to pass muster. Similar build and only a 4" difference in height (5'10" v 5'6").
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:43 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...you've identified the problem.

Why don't trans folk play cis folk?

Because they don't get cast to play cis folk. There are practically no roles around for trans folk.

So when a multi-million dollar movie gets announced about the life of Jean Marie Gill and its one of the very rare opportunities for trans folk to get a leading role its *********** **** that they don't even get the chance to audition. Its not that its "insensitive." Its that its a *********** **** thing to do. If trans folk don't get cast as cis folk and if trans folk can't even get cast as trans folk then what opportunities are there out there for trans-folk-actors?
I just finished watching Goliath Season 2, and I was surprised (and pleased) to see that Alexandra Billings was playing the part of a cis female judge. At least, I imagine that's how we were supposed to perceive the character. Her gender was never made an issue. She was just a regular, no-nonsense judge.

So maybe everything's starting to blend a bit more.

ETA - The people I was watching it with were not familiar with Billings, and neither of them had the slightest idea that she is a transwoman IRL.

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Old 11th July 2018, 05:33 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Casting unknowns as leads is always a risky choice from the producers' viewpoint. They tend to go for the safe choice. And it isn't always about ethnic or racial or gender appropriateness.
Right, but the actors I linked before aren't unknowns. They all have established careers. Certainly less famous than Johansson though, and if it is true as someone has claimed that this is a project that Johansson has a personal stake in, then that makes it a bit of a different issue. As I said before, she is a very good actor and I'm sure she'll be as great in this role as she usually is.
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Old 11th July 2018, 05:35 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
As I said my point is about how someone self-identifies, I'm glad that you have changed your mind and no longer consider that to be a pedantic point.
...I didn't change my mind. Not to be pedantic: but what I actually did was point out to you that you misunderstood which point I was pointing out was pedantic.
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Old 11th July 2018, 05:51 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If we're not talking about trans roles, then every project is an opportunity for trans folk to get a leading role.
...sure. Why not?

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But in reality, the vast majority of movies aren't opportunities at all for the vast majority of actors. Scarlett Johansson didn't fly into Hollywood one afternoon and get hired as a leading lady who can pick her own projects.
In reality Hollywood is all manners of **********-up. Just look at #metoo. Then understand that we aren't even scratching the surface of how **********-up Hollywood is. (This comment is not a comment on Scarlett Johansson at all, but the system that she works in)

We don't have to keep with the status quo. Especially if the status quo is all ********** up.

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Show me an actor - trans, cis, muppet, I don't care - who's at Johansson's level in the industry, and I'll show you an actor who can maybe claim that this project is an opportunity they should have.
Do you actually understand how Hollywood works? Its a closed system, not an open one. People hire who they know or like. Which is why things like "out of over 400 nominees for best director at the Oscars only 5 women have been nominated and only 1 women has ever won" happen. It isn't about "levels". Its about looking after your mates.
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Old 11th July 2018, 05:56 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But your response wasn't genuine.
...yes it was.

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I asked you to elaborate, and by your own admission you didn't.
But I did elaborate when asked. Then you were rude and dismissive.

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Because doing otherwise is rude and dismissive.
Lets get the order right. You asked me to elaborate, then I did. I'm assuming you took my intent to be rude and dismissive (it wasn't) so your reply to me was rude and dismissive.

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It is within your rights to be rude and dismissive, it's not actually against the membership agreement, but that's still what you've done.
Indeed, but you've done it too! Its okay to admit it.
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Old 11th July 2018, 05:58 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
Because they don't get cast to play cis folk. There are practically no roles around for trans folk.
For the past day, I've been trying to figure out what this is supposed to mean.

Wouldn't trans actors be auditioning for the same roles as cis actors?

Is there something about their gender self-identity that requires a separate pool of roles?
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:06 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
It would mean you're posts are off topic in this thread,
..."what" would mean my posts are off topic in this thread? This doesn't make any sense.

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as well as being sold evidence of a knee jerk response.
A knee jerk response to what?

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As well when you are saying " actors" you really mean " a list actors".
No, I mean actors.

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When you have such a small segment of the population as trans and are trying to cross reference that worth such a small section as a list actors, a low to non existent number isn't bigotry is statistics.
I'm struggling to parse this sentence, but I will point out that I haven't made any claims about bigotry, so I don't know why this is addressed to me.

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Think of it this way.

Think of something bad and rare like a disease or a lightning stike (though both are likely more common than being an a list actor ) now cross reference that with trans victims. Lo and behold you ate going to see the same thing. It isn't that lightning or rare diseases are bigoted is that when your search terms are specific enough is hard to find results.
Diseases and lightning strikes don't have agency. Producers and casting agents can choose who they hire. We aren't going to see the same thing because the decision to either hire or not hire an actor for a role is not an uncontrolled "force of nature" but the deliberate choice of a person with agency.
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:07 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
For the past day, I've been trying to figure out what this is supposed to mean.

Wouldn't trans actors be auditioning for the same roles as cis actors?
...yep.

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Is there something about their gender self-identity that requires a separate pool of roles?
Nope.
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:32 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...yep.



Nope.
So what's the issue then?
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:43 PM   #160
theprestige
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...yep.



Nope.
Then why even mention it? The way I see it, there's no such thing as "roles for trans actors", so there can't be any such thing as "practically no roles for trans actors". There's just roles, period. Trans actors have no more claim to this role than cis actors do.
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