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Old 10th July 2018, 12:05 PM   #1
Ranb
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MMR Vaccine Recalled After Two Deaths in Samoa.

https://www.radionz.co.nz/internatio...ter-two-deaths
Quote:
Samoa's health officials have issued an immediate recall of a vaccination for rubella, measles and mumps, after two babies died just hours after being vaccinated.

He says the infants were the first to get the MMR vaccine and testing is now underway to see if it was responsible for the deaths, "so now immediate action to recall all [of them] - we've ceased and sent out a directive to stop and cease all vaccinations of the children with the MMR."
Even if it is shown that these deaths were not a result of the vaccines, nuts like those at Natural News will go all ape **** over this.

Ranb

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Old 10th July 2018, 12:07 PM   #2
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Oh this is gonna be the anti-vaxxer "See! See" from now until the walls fall.
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:12 PM   #3
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I expect to see rioting here any second now. Maybe it'll give a chance for the reason based community to finally get our damn telescopes finished on the big island while all these idiots are distracted
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:17 PM   #4
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Overall healthy babies dying within *hours* of supposedly getting an MMR vaccine? I find that hard to believe. If there were any allergic reactions, sure, they'd show up within minutes or a few hours but if that were the case, the babies were showing signs of anaphylaxis so why didn't the docs/nurses do anything about it? The article is way short on info.

I have very limited knowledge of medical things but I'm still very suspicious that the vaccines were at fault here.
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:19 PM   #5
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If it's really the case that the first two children vaccinated died shortly after, either there is something seriously wrong with the vaccine or it's a bizarre coincidence of incredibly low probability.

Unfortunately, in either case, it's going to be fodder for anti-vaxers. If it's determined that there isn't anything wrong, they will be claiming it's a cover-up. If there is something wrong with the vaccine, they will say we told you so.
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:21 PM   #6
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Some vaccines need to be refrigerated. I wonder if this was one of them, maybe the cooling failed at some point the samples degraded and became contaminated?
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:22 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Overall healthy babies dying within *hours* of supposedly getting an MMR vaccine? I find that hard to believe. If there were any allergic reactions, sure, they'd show up within minutes or a few hours but if that were the case, the babies were showing signs of anaphylaxis so why didn't the docs/nurses do anything about it? The article is way short on info.

I have very limited knowledge of medical things but I'm still very suspicious that the vaccines were at fault here.
It could be entirely a coincidence, but I think it could be some kind of contamination. IOW, a major screw-up by the vaccine manufacturer.
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:24 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
It could be entirely a coincidence, but I think it could be some kind of contamination. IOW, a major screw-up by the vaccine manufacturer.
I'm worried about post-manufacture tampering/adulteration by a third party to implicate MMR as dangerous. Hopefully examination of the dosage bottles will shed light.
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:32 PM   #9
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Any investigation that fails to result in "MMR Vaccine is the one and only cause of these deaths, and it was intended to work this way" will be decried as a cover-up of the aforementioned truth.
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:34 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Some vaccines need to be refrigerated. I wonder if this was one of them, maybe the cooling failed at some point the samples degraded and became contaminated?
No, if not refrigerated, the vaccine virus dies, it doesn't become toxic.

As for contaminated, it's more likely the saline the freeze dried virus is mixed with that was an issue.

But without more information, we can't say.
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:40 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Any investigation that fails to result in "MMR Vaccine is the one and only cause of these deaths, and it was intended to work this way" will be decried as a cover-up of the aforementioned truth.
I'm afraid I don't see anyway around that regardless.
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:44 PM   #12
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According to this article: Babies died within minutes of receiving vaccineThat suggest something else happened.

These are listed as possible issues here:
Quote:
There are two main reasons why something like this might happen.

Medical error, where the vaccine is prepared for injection incorrectly and the wrong substance is injected.
Contamination of the vaccine due to leaving it at room temperature for a long period of time.
Number 2 on that list is just not likely to cause death within minutes of an injection. Number 1 OTOH, is high on the list of suspicion. Lots of meds are in the same size and shape vials as the saline diluent. Someone grabbed the wrong diluent, maybe potassium meant to go into an IV bag or something.

Other possible med errors: atropine 1 cc vial
epinephrine 1 cc vial meant to go into an IV bag

Both of those could cause instant death in a toddler.
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:55 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
According to this article: Babies died within minutes of receiving vaccineThat suggest something else happened.

These are listed as possible issues here: Number 2 on that list is just not likely to cause death within minutes of an injection. Number 1 OTOH, is high on the list of suspicion. Lots of meds are in the same size and shape vials as the saline diluent. Someone grabbed the wrong diluent, maybe potassium meant to go into an IV bag or something.

Other possible med errors: atropine 1 cc vial
epinephrine 1 cc vial meant to go into an IV bag

Both of those could cause instant death in a toddler.
The original article stated "within hours" and not "within minutes" which changes the whole dynamic.
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Old 10th July 2018, 01:12 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
The original article stated "within hours" and not "within minutes" which changes the whole dynamic.
And like all news stories, gawd knows where the truth is.

Within hours only suggests a different med error. Contaminants tend to be some organism like pseudomonas or aspergillus. Those would take a day or more to cause death.
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Old 10th July 2018, 01:28 PM   #15
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Seems pretty likely they grabbed the wrong bottle instead of the diluent. Another drug mixed in instead and she is night night nurse for a kiddie
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Old 10th July 2018, 01:35 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Seems pretty likely they grabbed the wrong bottle instead of the diluent. Another drug mixed in instead and she is night night nurse for a kiddie
It's not always the nurse that is the root cause. Where on the shelf diluent is kept, what's sitting next to the vials you want that look like the vial you need, stuff like that is often the root problem.
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Old 10th July 2018, 02:21 PM   #17
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Vaccines are risky - especially if not handled with care:

Syria 2014: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...easles-vaccine
Sudan 2017: https://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...-sudan-n767516

But not nearly as risky as the diseases they protect us from: http://www.pnas.org/content/114/16/4031
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Old 10th July 2018, 02:24 PM   #18
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You misstate the issue as do the two links. It wasn't the vaccine in either case.

Guardian:
Quote:
saboteurs linked to Assad regime may be responsible
NBC News:
Quote:
people as young as 12 years old administering the vaccines, South Sudan's government announced Friday.

The United Nations said the children died of "severe sepsis/toxicity" from the contaminated vaccine, and the health ministry blamed the deaths on human error. One syringe was used for all the children during the four-day campaign, and the vaccine was stored without refrigeration the entire time.
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Old 11th July 2018, 08:07 AM   #19
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Come on, SkeptiGinger, you should know better than that! And you should stress the may in your quotation from The Guardian!

This article is from just a couple of days later:
Quote:
The manufacturer, who has not been identified, shipped the vaccine in powder form with a diluent to a hub in Syria where it was stored and then sent to Deir al-Zor and Idlib provinces for the campaign to vaccinate tens of thousands of children that began on Monday, WHO spokesman Christian Lindmeier said.
“In the hub apparently, (from) what we know so far, the diluent was kept ... together in the same refrigerator with a muscle relaxant. The relaxant is called Atracurium. This got mixed in some cases instead of the diluent with the vaccine powder,” Lindmeier told a news briefing in Geneva.
Pointing to human error, he said: “So the ones who packed it obviously put the wrong ampoules with the vaccine powder into the package. Then it gets shipped in the vaccine carriers to the facility, there it gets unpacked, mixed and then it has to be used within 6 hours.
“So both at the packing and at the unpacking there had to be gross negligence,” Lindmeier said.
(Reuters, Sep. 19, 2014

That the contamination might have been deliberate is described in the following way:
Quote:
... a slight (!) possibility (!) that it’s not only (!) human error, but an intent.

And this is The Lancet a few months later:

Confusing drug packaging contributes to death of 15 children (The Lancet, Nov. 2014)

What I wrote was:

Originally Posted by dann View Post
Vaccines are risky - especially if not handled with care:

Both stories confirm what I said. In both cases the vaccine wasn't handled properly, so I don't see why you try to confuse the issue. Do you really want to tell people that vaccines aren't risky and shouldn't be handled with care? Or do you think that letting 12-year-olds administer vaccines is the proper procedure?!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
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Old 11th July 2018, 08:34 AM   #20
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PS
Just to make absolutely sure that you get the point. This is a fairly recent case from Scandinavia:

Sweden affirms swine flu vaccine narcolepsy link (The Local, Mar. 26, 2013)
Narcolepsy Following Pandemrix Influenza Vaccination in Europe (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 2015/2017)
Pandmix (Wikipedia)

The Americans were lucky that they didn't get these shots, as were the Danes.

I already stressed that even though vaccines are risky business - when Pasteur created the successful vaccine against rabies, "as many as one of every two hundred who used it became paralyzed and died" (Paul A. Off's Vaccinated - One Man's Quest to Defeat the World's Deadliest Diseases)) - they're "not nearly as risky as the diseases they protect us from."
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 11th July 2018, 10:19 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Come on, SkeptiGinger, you should know better than that! And you should stress the may in your quotation from The Guardian!

This article is from just a couple of days later:

That the contamination might have been deliberate is described in the following way:

And this is The Lancet a few months later:

Confusing drug packaging contributes to death of 15 children (The Lancet, Nov. 2014)

What I wrote was:

Both stories confirm what I said. In both cases the vaccine wasn't handled properly, so I don't see why you try to confuse the issue. Do you really want to tell people that vaccines aren't risky and shouldn't be handled with care? Or do you think that letting 12-year-olds administer vaccines is the proper procedure?!
You're mad that I said it wasn't likely the vaccine, it was likely human error?

Sometimes it is the vaccine itself. There is an important difference.
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Old 11th July 2018, 10:22 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
PS
Just to make absolutely sure that you get the point. This is a fairly recent case from Scandinavia:

Sweden affirms swine flu vaccine narcolepsy link (The Local, Mar. 26, 2013)
Narcolepsy Following Pandemrix Influenza Vaccination in Europe (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 2015/2017)
Pandmix (Wikipedia)

The Americans were lucky that they didn't get these shots, as were the Danes.

I already stressed that even though vaccines are risky business - when Pasteur created the successful vaccine against rabies, "as many as one of every two hundred who used it became paralyzed and died" (Paul A. Off's Vaccinated - One Man's Quest to Defeat the World's Deadliest Diseases)) - they're "not nearly as risky as the diseases they protect us from."
So now you post an example of when it might be the vaccine?

I certainly don't think you're an anti-vaxxer if that's what your complaint is.


Vaccine vs some other problem is an important distinction to make, IMO
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:51 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And like all news stories, gawd knows where the truth is.

Within hours only suggests a different med error. Contaminants tend to be some organism like pseudomonas or aspergillus. Those would take a day or more to cause death.
And how would they have gotten into the vials?

Nah, I vote for accidentally wrong diluent, or intentional.
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:57 PM   #24
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Perhaps allergic reaction to some ingredient? The 12 year old giving the shots skipped the questionnaire? Maybe an allergen that is rare in Syria, so nobody there knows their kid is allergic.
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Old 11th July 2018, 02:03 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
And how would they have gotten into the vials?

Nah, I vote for accidentally wrong diluent, or intentional.
I posted why it wasn't likely a contaminant.

However, lot's of 'sterile' products end up with contaminants at the manufacturer. The FDA sends out notices to my email all the time.
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Old 11th July 2018, 02:04 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Perhaps allergic reaction to some ingredient? The 12 year old giving the shots skipped the questionnaire? Maybe an allergen that is rare in Syria, so nobody there knows their kid is allergic.
You're conflating two different incidents. There was no 12 yr old in the OP incident.
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Old 19th September 2018, 12:05 PM   #27
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An update from last month.
https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skep...ragedy-update/
Quote:
A leading vaccine expert, Dr. Helen Petousis-Harris recently discussed the Samoan vaccine tragedy. She stated that the most likely cause of the deaths was that the vaccine was prepared incorrectly by the medical staff. However, since the MMR vaccine used in the Samoan vaccine issue are 5-dose vials (not used in the USA and many other countries), it is also possible that the vaccine was reconstituted too long before the vaccine and became contaminated.
Other sites say the nurse has been charged in the deaths.
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Old 19th September 2018, 05:29 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I'm worried about post-manufacture tampering/adulteration by a third party to implicate MMR as dangerous. Hopefully examination of the dosage bottles will shed light.
One of the most monstrously cynical things I could think of.

I hope this wasn't the case.
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Old 19th September 2018, 07:55 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Seems pretty likely they grabbed the wrong bottle instead of the diluent. Another drug mixed in instead and she is night night nurse for a kiddie
For this non-medical-professional: Are vaccines typically packaged in a form that requires the provider to mix ingredients? I always thought they were shipped from the manufacturer in vials or pre-loaded syringes. Seems like expecting the providers to do the mixing with the right ingredients in the right proportions in the right way is a recipe for catastrophe in every medical office.
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Old 19th September 2018, 10:45 PM   #30
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Diluting medicine properly is extremely important!
There was a recent case in Denmark. It wasn't about vaccinations, though, but vials with vitamin D from the company Inno Pharma hadn't been diluted the way they should be, so some parents ended up giving their babies the amount of vitamin D in 2.5 months that they were supposed to get in 13.5 years, seriously damaging them for life because it raised the calcium level in their blood to unacceptable levels.

Quote:
Faktisk fik hun helt præcist en mængde D-vitaminer på 2,5 måned, som normalt svarer til det, man får i løbet af 13,5 år.
Lille pige blev forgiftet af D-vitamin: - Min datter er skadet for livet (TV2, June 29, 2017)

https://www.bmj.com/content/354/bmj.i4534

One of the few cases where homeopathic dilution would have been preferable ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
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Old 20th September 2018, 10:08 AM   #31
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Total speculation on my part, but is it possible that the babies died of an embolism caused by poor administration of the vaccine?
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Old 20th September 2018, 02:42 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Total speculation on my part, but is it possible that the babies died of an embolism caused by poor administration of the vaccine?
My understanding of embolisms is that you need a large syringe of air into an artery. Vaccines are usually only sub-dermal into the fat layer, or even intra-dermal, not even all the way through the skin.

I suspect using something besides sterile water as the diluent. Bottled drinking water? Tap water? Gin? Coconut milk or lime juice causing an allergic anaphylaxis?
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Old 20th September 2018, 02:44 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
For this non-medical-professional: Are vaccines typically packaged in a form that requires the provider to mix ingredients? I always thought they were shipped from the manufacturer in vials or pre-loaded syringes. Seems like expecting the providers to do the mixing with the right ingredients in the right proportions in the right way is a recipe for catastrophe in every medical office.
MMR is a freeze dried live virus. It comes with the 'diluent' that you reconstitute it with just before you give it.

We're not that incompetent.

But actually, you don't just pick something up off the shelf to mix it. They come together, both in single dose vials, you put the diluent into the vial of dried virus.

They don't sell 3-dose vials in the US that I am aware of.
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Old 20th September 2018, 02:57 PM   #34
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The senior nurse at least is held on manslaughter charges. She had 30 years experience, says she mixed it correctly. Prosecutors just got the coroner's report this week. Coroner is an expert form Australia. I think one kid died within minutes, other was 6 hours later? Not sure if the two were from the same family?
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Old 20th September 2018, 02:59 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Diluting medicine properly is extremely important!
There was a recent case in Denmark. It wasn't about vaccinations, though, but vials with vitamin D from the company Inno Pharma hadn't been diluted the way they should be, so some parents ended up giving their babies the amount of vitamin D in 2.5 months that they were supposed to get in 13.5 years, seriously damaging them for life because it raised the calcium level in their blood to unacceptable levels.

https://www.bmj.com/content/354/bmj.i4534

One of the few cases where homeopathic dilution would have been preferable ...
That's a bit different. Some drugs come concentrated because they are intended to be diluted before use. Some are put in an IV bag and dripped in a vein slowly. Others come in powders mixed with tap water, not even sterile water. Kid's liquid antibiotics are one, and apparently vitamin D. Usually they are mixed by the pharmacist before dispensing.
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Old 20th September 2018, 03:02 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
MMR is a freeze dried live virus. It comes with the 'diluent' that you reconstitute it with just before you give it.

We're not that incompetent.

But actually, you don't just pick something up off the shelf to mix it. They come together, both in single dose vials, you put the diluent into the vial of dried virus.

They don't sell 3-dose vials in the US that I am aware of.
I worked for Petco when it we still UPCO, a ranch and kennel supply. Some of the vaccines were in hour-glass shaped bottles with a stopper at the mid point. A syringe full of air injected into the water end made enough pressure to push the stopper into the freeze dried end, then you rolled it around to mix. Kind of goof proof, for the hog farmer with pig **** on his hands.
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Old 20th September 2018, 03:05 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Total speculation on my part, but is it possible that the babies died of an embolism caused by poor administration of the vaccine?
That'd be a stretch. You can give a person a fat emboli if you infuse IV lipids too fast.

MMR is given sub-q, no large veins, babies have a lot of sub-q fat to give the injection in, and it would have to be some undissolved lump of vaccine and that would have to not dissolve further in the blood, unlikely.

You can get a precipitate if you use the wrong diluent, still not likely to end up as an emboli. It has to fit through the needle to get in the patient.
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Old 20th September 2018, 03:08 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
The senior nurse at least is held on manslaughter charges. She had 30 years experience, says she mixed it correctly. Prosecutors just got the coroner's report this week. Coroner is an expert form Australia. I think one kid died within minutes, other was 6 hours later? Not sure if the two were from the same family?
Don't forget this is Samoa which might have different laws holding health care workers criminally liable for mistakes.

Arresting the nurse is odd. What did the coroner's report say?
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Old 20th September 2018, 03:15 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Vaccines are risky - especially if not handled with care:

Syria 2014: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...easles-vaccine
Sudan 2017: https://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...-sudan-n767516
Looks like those kids died of sepsis. That suggest plain old dirty technique either in mixing or handling. I can even imagine them using dirty water as a diluent if the diluent didn't arrive with the vaccine.
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Old 20th September 2018, 03:19 PM   #40
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Could be the nurse was arrested for another reason. The parents say they told her not to give the vaccine and she did anyway according to this report.


The website might be dicey, there's an antivax doctor story further down.
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