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Old 11th July 2018, 01:20 PM   #81
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
You can't raise an infant on a couple of free samples, so I don't understand how not getting free samples can be characterized as deprivation.
So what is the word for denying someone of receiving something with value for free?

...other than the many choice libertarian words I have for it.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 11th July 2018 at 01:21 PM.
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:32 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The issue would be the choice words that would occur discussing it with her.
On her part? Because I wouldn't employ any harsh language if I were to discuss it with your wife. I'd lay out the pros and cons of each situation and leave it at that. The sole important thing here to me is that women be educated on both situations with proven facts, no BS. After that it's up to the woman in question to make a choice. I would make no bones about the fact that I believe breastfeeding is the better option, but I wouldn't judge your wife for making a different decision so long as I was sure she understood the actual facts of the situation, and wasn't just making a decision based on outdated, bad, or no information on the matter.
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:34 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
On her part? Because I wouldn't employ any harsh language if I were to discuss it with your wife. I'd lay out the pros and cons of each situation and leave it at that. The sole important thing here to me is that women be educated on both situations with proven facts, no BS. After that it's up to the woman in question to make a choice. I would make no bones about the fact that I believe breastfeeding is the better option, but I wouldn't judge your wife for making a different decision so long as I was sure she understood the actual facts of the situation, and wasn't just making a decision based on outdated, bad, or no information on the matter.
So you would judge then.
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:39 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
So what is the word for denying someone of receiving something with value for free?

...other than the many choice libertarian words I have for it.
Who said anything about denying someone of free samples? The point I and others are trying to make is that we don't want that to be the ONLY option; we want women to receive information regarding both choices, and if a woman then makes the choice that formula is best for her and her child, so be it. We aren't trying to stop hospitals from handing out samples of formula; we're simply trying to enforce the idea that formula is not the only choice here, and we're hoping that women, once they are educated about both options, would then make the best choice for her and her infant.

Then of course there's the issue that, post hospital, those free samples dry up pretty quickly, and if a woman was only told about the benefits of formula, suddenly she's on the hook for paying for it when her breasts are producing something as good or better for free. Your buzzword I believe. Free samples of formula aren't the only thing that's available for free, and breast milk is available for free far longer than formula is, and bonus, absent being pumped and kept frozen or refrigerated, it never expires. Again, if she weighs the pros and cons and decides that formula is better for her and her child, that's her choice; I won't stand in her way. But if your lookout is for free food for your kid, I would point out that Mom produces everything baby needs for free for at least a year, if not longer, so I'd think you'd weigh down more on the side of breastfeeding then.
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:39 PM   #85
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Sabrina: Part of the code does indeed say people shouldn't hand out free samples outside of a regulated assistance context. But yeah, samples or no samples is not the part I'm hung up on, personally.

I'll just link the post that links the texts the OP is about since we're at the top of a new page.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8&postcount=66

Bob: The point of free samples is to get people who aren't actually very interested to try something, so that those who like it will pay for more. Many people feel this is fine if it's nibbles on toothpicks, not very cool if it's drugs.

If you wanna argue by definition? "Deprivation: the damaging lack of material benefits considered to be basic necessities in a society." Not the word I'd use for disallowing free samples. In any case you seem to have a bigger beef than I'm prepared to argue so I'll bow out.

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Old 11th July 2018, 01:40 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
So you would judge then.
No. Are you not reading my posts? Her infant, her choice. Just because I have an opinion on the topic does not mean I'd judge her for making a different choice. It's the same principle as getting an abortion; I'd probably never get one, but I wouldn't judge a woman for getting one.
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:41 PM   #87
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I honestly can't fathom *choosing* to formula feed.

Yes, there are times when it's necessary, but why would a person go through all the rigmarole with bottles and nipples and temperature and smelly diapers and ear infections and so on when the other choice is right there when you need it, at the perfect temperature, and full of antibodies. It changes constantly to match the baby's needs, not just at growth stages but at different times of day.

Sore nipples, even cracked and bleeding ones, heal rapidly. In my case, the entire latching cramps and nipple pain thing were gone in less than a week with each child.

And if you're more interested in being able to drink rather than nursing, you might want to look at your drinking habits and your reasons for having a child.
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:42 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
No. Are you not reading my posts? Her infant, her choice. Just because I have an opinion on the topic does not mean I'd judge her for making a different choice. It's the same principle as getting an abortion; I'd probably never get one, but I wouldn't judge a woman for getting one.
Quote:
but I wouldn't judge your wife for making a different decision so long as
The "so long as" condition wouldn't be satisfied, therefore you would judge, right?
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:43 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
I honestly can't fathom *choosing* to formula feed.

Yes, there are times when it's necessary, but why would a person go through all the rigmarole with bottles and nipples and temperature and smelly diapers and ear infections and so on when the other choice is right there when you need it, at the perfect temperature, and full of antibodies. It changes constantly to match the baby's needs, not just at growth stages but at different times of day.

Sore nipples, even cracked and bleeding ones, heal rapidly. In my case, the entire latching cramps and nipple pain thing were gone in less than a week with each child.

And if you're more interested in being able to drink rather than nursing, you might want to look at your drinking habits and your reasons for having a child.
So you identify a reason after you said you can't fathom it then you say you disagree with the reason? Seems you can fathom it.
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:46 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The "so long as" condition wouldn't be satisfied, therefore you would judge, right?
I'd prefer to offer your wife education on the subject, actually. So no, judging isn't a part of my equation here. That clear enough for you?
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:46 PM   #91
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I can see using formula when it's a necessity. I have trouble fathoming why people have children when they're uninterested in them. I know it happens, I just can't understand their reasoning (I was stuffed in a postpartum ward with 3 of them when I had my second child).
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:48 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
I'd prefer to offer your wife education on the subject, actually. So no, judging isn't a part of my equation here. That clear enough for you?
So you do amend your previous statement to remove the "so long as" condition?
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Old 11th July 2018, 02:18 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
I honestly can't fathom *choosing* to formula feed.

Yes, there are times when it's necessary, but why would a person go through all the rigmarole with bottles and nipples and temperature and smelly diapers and ear infections and so on when the other choice is right there when you need it, at the perfect temperature, and full of antibodies. It changes constantly to match the baby's needs, not just at growth stages but at different times of day.
Not all mother's have the luxury (yes, luxury) of being available to feed a child on-demand up to 8 times a day, 30 minutes at a time, for 6 months. Pumping doesn't always work. It didn't for me despite 2 very expensive machines.

Breastfeeding exclusively means you are the only chef in town! And you are on call 24/7. Formula provides much more flexibility, especially for a working mom.
There isn't anything wrong with it.

Is there a difference in the consequences you would share to a mom who HAD to formula feed vs one who CHOSE it? Does the first get sympathy and assurance her baby will be just fine and perhaps commended that she at least tried.... and the latter gets a list of adverse health consequences for her selfish choice?
Because the baby is the same either way. Just fine.
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Old 11th July 2018, 02:32 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
But then your criticisms aren't hoops to jump through. If you want to raise your child on or with formula, not getting a free sample isn't a hoop to jump through. Text existing on the packaging of your formula isn't a hoop to jump through.

On the other hand, having to sign a thing saying you understand formula isn't as good as breastmilk would be a hoop to jump through - but none of the guidelines recommend that.

The hoop is that they won't give it if I ask. It needs to be a medical reason. They won't have the supplies there for me or any provided to take home. I have trouble even believing that's what it actually says since it defies real needs, but it does.

I was not planning on needing formula. I was, in fact, breastfeeding from the start and wanted to exclusively. But I didn't make enough milk for this giant 10lb baby in my 4 days in hospital.

I was so grateful for the samples after enduring a 32hr labor followed by a c-section. At least I had some time at home to research what I had to buy (and I got coupons!). I also needed extra bottles (I did have a few as gifts), warmers, brushes, nipples, etc... I had a week's respite to do all that and just enjoy my baby.

Like I said, it's a good goal to have more people breastfeed and be educated. But these narrow rules of what you can and cannot give and freaking hazard labels on baby formula are ridiculous.
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Old 11th July 2018, 02:45 PM   #95
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So many posts in this thread are missing the context. The purpose of the resolution, and particularly the part about samples, is not about first-world "lactivists", but about how the industry targeted people and caused deaths, especially in poorer countries. It's been known about since 1974.

Quote:
Intensive and controversial marketing of infant formula is believed to be responsible for millions of infant deaths in low and middle-income countries (LMICs), yet to date there have been no rigorous analyses that quantify these effects. To estimate the impact of infant formula on infant mortality, we pair country-specific data from the annual corporate reports of Nestlé, the largest producer of infant formula, with a sample of 2.48 million births in 46 LMICs from 1970-2011. Our key finding is that the availability of formula increased infant mortality by 9.4 per 1000 births, 95%CI [3.6, 15.6] among mothers without access to clean water, suggesting that unclean water acted as a vector for the transmission of water-borne pathogens to infants. We estimate that the availability of formula in LIMCs resulted in approximately 66,000 infant deaths in 1981 at the peak of the infant formula controversy.
Linky.
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Old 11th July 2018, 02:51 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
So many posts in this thread are missing the context. The purpose of the resolution, and particularly the part about samples, is not about first-world "lactivists", but about how the industry targeted people and caused deaths, especially in poorer countries. It's been known about since 1974.



Linky.
The resolution does not appear to caveat application to the first world.
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Old 11th July 2018, 03:09 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
So many posts in this thread are missing the context. The purpose of the resolution, and particularly the part about samples, is not about first-world "lactivists", but about how the industry targeted people and caused deaths, especially in poorer countries. It's been known about since 1974.



Linky.
I think most of us of a certain age have heard the Nestle controversy. We do not have that issue in the U.S. Do we really need to agree to implement this resolution?

Here's what it could say:

No health practitioner can promote formula feeding, over and above the ideal choice of breastfeeding, for a mother who is capable and willing to do so.

No financial incentive shall be provided by formula companies to any health provider, practitioner, organization, or patient.


That's all it needs to say on the question of the inappropriate marketing.

Why are they dictating to the hospital what supplies they can have and what samples can be given of a product that is useful and sometimes necessary for newborns? Do we suspect all L&D nurses and doctors of being shills in the U.S.?
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Old 11th July 2018, 03:19 PM   #98
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Sherkeu, I was unable to pump either. So I went back to work part-time at first. When the kids were older and well-established, I supplemented with formula. I had that choice, and I know not every woman does. But I was fortunate to have my kids in Canada where they actually have paid maternity leave.

Also, my younger daughter was 9 lb 10 oz, and her older sister was 9 lb 3.5 oz, so I got used to big hungry babies. It just takes a little longer for the body to get the amount of milk right. The more they nurse, the more you produce.

As I said, I have no issues with mothers who *have* to use formula, especially if they're breastfeeding when they can as well. Even nursing for two weeks is better than not nursing. It's the people who've been brainwashed by formula makers and the ones who do it for selfish reasons that bother me, especially the latter. Think of it as serving Nutraloaf to dinner guests. It may have all the major nutrients in it, but you're going through extra work to serve something that's less appealing than the real thing.
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Old 11th July 2018, 03:20 PM   #99
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In case wires are getting crossed, the original text with these recommendations is the one originally proposed by Ecuador, which the US then threatened Ecuador over, and is not the one that was eventually passed.
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Old 11th July 2018, 03:46 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
Sherkeu, I was unable to pump either. So I went back to work part-time at first. When the kids were older and well-established, I supplemented with formula. I had that choice, and I know not every woman does. But I was fortunate to have my kids in Canada where they actually have paid maternity leave.

Also, my younger daughter was 9 lb 10 oz, and her older sister was 9 lb 3.5 oz, so I got used to big hungry babies. It just takes a little longer for the body to get the amount of milk right. The more they nurse, the more you produce.

As I said, I have no issues with mothers who *have* to use formula, especially if they're breastfeeding when they can as well. Even nursing for two weeks is better than not nursing. It's the people who've been brainwashed by formula makers and the ones who do it for selfish reasons that bother me, especially the latter. Think of it as serving Nutraloaf to dinner guests. It may have all the major nutrients in it, but you're going through extra work to serve something that's less appealing than the real thing.
I think we agree on this for the most part.

My issue is that this resolution is a government agreement to policy decisions that affect hospital care and patient choice. If the companies are acting with deceptive marketing, then the U.S. gov't can deal with THEM just like any other company that makes false or deceptive claims. Deal with the conflict of interest in a hospital, not the patient's choice -especially with fear-mongering language like "Hazard". All the patient needs is the accurate information and best-practice medical care.


I feel a bit libertarian today!

eta: wow, you had some big babies!

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Old 11th July 2018, 05:10 PM   #101
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Yeah I did have big babies, their Dad is the hulking giant son of 2 Dutch immigrants. But anyway...
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Old 11th July 2018, 07:39 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
So many posts in this thread are missing the context. The purpose of the resolution, and particularly the part about samples, is not about first-world "lactivists", but about how the industry targeted people and caused deaths, especially in poorer countries. It's been known about since 1974.
I wonder if it would have been better to use milk solids to create a nutritional supplement for the moms, while babies got the benefit of relatively sterile breast milk.

However lactose intolerance increases with age, so that might not work.

There is a global glut of cow's milk, partly because cows produce twice as much as they did a few decades ago.

Apropos of not much I found this gem on intelligentmother.com:
Quote:
One of the questions that most mothers in such situations always ask themselves is, “What formula is closest to breast milk?” The answer is a big yes.
I wonder if that was written by a sleep-deprived new mom.
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Old 11th July 2018, 08:58 PM   #103
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It seems like folly for dairies to count on increasing exports in a world where milk literally makes a lot of people sick. Yet huge multinational corporations are banking on it. In case you didn't know, there are 1.4 billion extra pounds of cheese lying around, the Washington Post reports:

America’s cheese stockpile just hit an all-time high
Quote:
The United States has amassed its largest stockpile of cheese in the 100 years since regulators began keeping tabs, the result of booming domestic production of milk and consumers’ waning interest in the dairy beverage.
"Dairy beverage," that's some clunky writing right there ...
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Old 12th July 2018, 05:03 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Alright I'm A) a guy and B) childless so I'm an outsider looking in at this so take this however you want but in either/both the developed and the less developed world if we're gonna pick either a children's health crisis or a "Big company with too much influence on a health policy" hill to die defending is breast vs formula really the one we need to Teddy Roosevelt up?

Cards on the table I'm a "little" biased right now because my sister just had her first kid and has already had runs in with the hardcore "Lactivist" community but regardless when you are an infant is pretty much only time in your life when your choice "Practically perfect food" and "Pretty damn good food."

But this has always been one of those discussions that I always get the impression other people are having on a level that I'm not. There's a lot of just under the surface baggage here.
I'm sorry your sister was attacked by the breastfeeding fascists. They are real. As you can see, one is a member of this board in this thread. They are very toxic and evangelical about their fervent belief that choosing to formula feed makes women bad mothers.

And...

The point someone made upthread about how nursing in public needs to be way, way more accepted is also very legit. Babies really shouldn't have to eat in the bathroom if you're out of the home. That sucks. The anti "nursing in public" people are also toxic weirdos.

Final point...

New mothers are almost all deeply insecure about the "goodness" of their "mothering", and sometimes women make a hobby out of being cruel and judgey towards other mothers, probably out of a subconscious desire to affirm their own maternal adequacy. I'm no psychologist, but that's what it seemed like when my kids were babies.
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Old 12th July 2018, 05:07 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Sabrina: Part of the code does indeed say people shouldn't hand out free samples outside of a regulated assistance context. But yeah, samples or no samples is not the part I'm hung up on, personally.

I'll just link the post that links the texts the OP is about since we're at the top of a new page.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8&postcount=66
Can you quote the specific part?
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Old 12th July 2018, 06:19 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
It seems like folly for dairies to count on increasing exports in a world where milk literally makes a lot of people sick. Yet huge multinational corporations are banking on it. In case you didn't know, there are 1.4 billion extra pounds of cheese lying around, the Washington Post reports:

America’s cheese stockpile just hit an all-time high"Dairy beverage," that's some clunky writing right there ...
It's the Strategic Cheese Reserve.

Got to have plenty of bland homogenised cheese available.
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Old 12th July 2018, 06:23 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
I can see using formula when it's a necessity. I have trouble fathoming why people have children when they're uninterested in them.
Women who don't breastfeed are uninterested in their children?
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Old 12th July 2018, 06:27 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'm sorry your sister was attacked by the breastfeeding fascists. They are real.
I used to refer to them as the breastfeeding nazis, but yeah. I've even encountered those who would like to see breastfeeding be legally mandated for at least 6 months.
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Old 12th July 2018, 06:34 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
I used to refer to them as the breastfeeding nazis, but yeah. I've even encountered those who would like to see breastfeeding be legally mandated for at least 6 months.
Again I admit I'm coming at this from outside but I'd rather, everyday and twice on Sunday, get screamed and insulted at than get the pandering "Oh you'd agree with me if only you were smarter and better informed. It's not your fault you poor thing, you just don't know any better" talking down to.

Given the choice between being insulted and pandered, I'd rather be insulted.

But I like I said this a discussion that has always struck me as 99% unspoken baggage and the last couple of pages have done nothing to lessen that view in my mind.
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Last edited by JoeMorgue; 12th July 2018 at 06:36 AM.
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Old 12th July 2018, 06:35 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
I used to refer to them as the breastfeeding nazis, but yeah. I've even encountered those who would like to see breastfeeding be legally mandated for at least 6 months.
See, I can't get behind this at all.

I have a friend who's been pregnant eight times, given birth seven (one was unfortunately a miscarriage). Two times she was a surrogate for a gay couple; the other five are hers outright. With her last child, she tried VERY hard to breastfeed, but was just not producing enough milk, plus she had other health issues, so she reluctantly switched to formula for that child in order to ensure that her baby was getting nutrition. People like that would have been calling for my friend's head, never mind that she herself is a breastfeeding advocate, breastfed her other four children (and probably did at least a little for her surro-babies, as she calls them) and tried DESPERATELY to feed her child the natural way, and only gave up when it was evident that her body just wasn't able to provide for her child. For whatever reason; lack of proper nutrition, chronic illness, etc., some women just aren't able to produce milk for their child, and for them, obviously, formula is the only solution if they want their child to be remotely healthy.

Are these people willing to grant exceptions to this mandate or not? Or are they the ridiculous hardline of people who want it their way or the highway?
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Old 12th July 2018, 06:54 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Party of Small Government wants to intervene in breast feeding?
If formula peddlers give them money then the "Party of Lincoln" will do whatever they're told to do.
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Old 12th July 2018, 07:09 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again I admit I'm coming at this from outside but I'd rather, everyday and twice on Sunday, get screamed and insulted at than get the pandering "Oh you'd agree with me if only you were smarter and better informed. It's not your fault you poor thing, you just don't know any better" talking down to.

Given the choice between being insulted and pandered, I'd rather be insulted.

But I like I said this a discussion that has always struck me as 99% unspoken baggage and the last couple of pages have done nothing to lessen that view in my mind.
Yeah, I'd assume it's easier when someone just overtly says something nutty like "why would you have a baby if you don't care about it?" because then you can see how crazy they are, at least.

It's some "maternal adequacy validation" thing you're sensing as "unspoken baggage". Being a bad mother is, like, the worst thing in almost every mother's mind. Right up there morally on par with being a serial killer, almost. The fear of being a bad mother is just existential.
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Old 12th July 2018, 07:22 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
Are these people willing to grant exceptions to this mandate or not? Or are they the ridiculous hardline of people who want it their way or the highway?
They're just codes and guidelines, and need governments to choose if/to/how to enforce them (Ecuador's scrapped proposal was 'let's all make an effort to enforce these'), and they're mostly meant to address problems in developing countries. Though it is true as Bob points out that there is no explicit 'but not the USA' exemption in there.

Sherkeu's comment earlier saying they felt a warning of 'hazards' was an outrageous thing to put on packaging, that would upset mothers who want or need to use formula, seems to miss the idea that the 'hazard' they meant was that it's dangerous to the infant if you don't have access to clean water to mix up the formula. In the 1981 packaging codes, they want labels to include:

(a) the words "Important Notice" or their equivalent;
(b) a statement of the superiority of breastfeeding;
(c) a statement that the product should be used only on the advice of a health worker as to the need for its use and the proper method of use;
(d) instructions for appropriate preparation, and a warning against the health hazards of inappropriate preparation.

They do in general shy away from actually saying things like 'it's totally OK if you just don't want to breastfeed your infant' but I think that is because they don't think they need to undersell their point. They do in fact want to encourage people to breastfeed whenever possible, and so no, they're not going to explicitly encourage people who simply don't want to. They DO encourage people who don't want to for health reasons; one of the provisions in there is formula support for women whose milk is/may not be safe due to medications they're on or conditions they have. Also one for working mothers/people who don't have time/access for breastfeeding. But yes, they do heavily advocate breastfeeding.

For example, for mothers who are worried about breastfeeding while HIV positive, they recommend it anyways "unless replacement feeding is acceptable, feasible, affordable, sustainable and safe." And goes on to say that ideally "national authorities should consider negotiating prices with manufacturers and offer breastmilk substitutes at a subsidized price or free of charge to be used for infants of mothers living with HIV."

But none of this means they want to put boots on necks of any women who just don't want to breastfeed. That's Lactivist material. This stuff is meant to discourage marketing and its effects on low income and low information mothers.

Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Part of the code does indeed say people shouldn't hand out free samples outside of a regulated assistance context.
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Can you quote the specific part?
From the 1981 guidelines:

"4.3 Donations of informational or educational equipment or materials by
manufacturers or distributors should be made only at the request and with the written approval of the appropriate government authority or within guidelines given by governments for this purpose. Such equipment or materials may bear the donating company's name or logo, but should not refer to a proprietary product that is within the scope of this Code, and should be distributed only through the health care system."

"5.2 Manufacturers and distributors should not provide, directly or indirectly, to pregnant women, mothers or members of their families, samples of products within the scope of this Code.

5.3 In conformity with paragraphs 1 and 2 of this Article, there should be no point-of-sale advertising, giving of samples, or any other promotion device to induce sales directly to the consumer at the retail level, such as special displays, discount coupons, premiums, special sales, loss-leaders and tie-in sales, for products within the scope of this Code. This provision should not restrict the establishment of pricing policies and practices intended to provide products at lower prices on a long-term basis.

5.4 Manufacturers and distributors should not distribute to pregnant women or mothers or infants and young children any gifts of articles or utensils which may promote the use of breast-milk substitutes or bottle-feeding.

5.5 Marketing personnel, in their business capacity, should not seek direct or indirect contact of any kind with pregnant women or with mothers of infants and young children."

"6.6 Donations or low-price sales to institutions or organizations of supplies of infant formula or other products within the scope of this Code, whether for use in the institutions or for distribution outside them, may be made. Such supplies should only be used or distributed for infants who have to be fed on breast-milk substitutes. If these supplies are distributed for use outside the institutions, this should be done only by the institutions or organizations concerned. Such donations or low-price sales should not be used by manufacturers or distributors as a sales inducement.

6.7 Where donated supplies of infant formula or other products within the scope of this Code are distributed outside an institution, the institution or organization should take steps to ensure that supplies can be continued as long as the infants concerned need them. Donors, as well as institutions or organizations concerned, should bear in mind this responsibility."

Lots of stuff like that.

Last edited by Lithrael; 12th July 2018 at 08:09 AM.
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Old 12th July 2018, 08:25 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
They're guidelines, and they're mostly meant to address problems in developing countries. Though it is true as Bob points out that there is no explicit 'but not the USA' exemption in there. Sherkeu's comment earlier saying they felt a warning of 'hazards' was an outrageous thing to put on packaging, that would upset mothers who want or need to use formula, seems to miss the idea that the 'hazard' they meant was that it's dangerous to the infant if you don't have access to clean water to mix up the formula. In the 1981 packaging guidelines, they want labels to include:

(a) the words "Important Notice" or their equivalent;
(b) a statement of the superiority of breastfeeding;
(c) a statement that the product should be used only on the advice of a health worker as to the need for its use and the proper method of use;
(d) instructions for appropriate preparation, and a warning against the health hazards of inappropriate preparation.
Thanks for that clarification this wording sounded like a poison label (in fact, the other area that came up for 'cost and hazard' was for asbestos!)
WHO wording: All information on artificial feeding, including labels, should explain the benefits of breastfeeding and the costs and hazards associated with artificial feeding.


But this point isn't even an issue since our current labeling already does all that.
See sample label here.

The labels do not explicitly say to use only with 'health worker' approval. But then, that would make it a prescription, wouldn't it?

They have had several changes/additions to the 1981 resolution, It's only this latest iteration that presented an issue. Anyone know what the specific addition was? I assume it was the marketing restrictions but I don't see what it had said prior.
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Old 12th July 2018, 08:31 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
See, I can't get behind this at all.
:::

Are these people willing to grant exceptions to this mandate or not? Or are they the ridiculous hardline of people who want it their way or the highway?
For people with whom I've had this conversation, the idea seemed to be that a doctor would have to certify that the woman was unable to nurse for some medically approved reason, of which there should be as few as possible.

Meanwhile the USDA still seems keen on the breastfeeding idea, even if Hair Furor is not:
https://www.fns.usda.gov/wic/women-i...d-children-wic
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Old 12th July 2018, 08:44 AM   #116
Lithrael
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
They have had several changes/additions to the 1981 resolution, It's only this latest iteration that presented an issue. Anyone know what the specific addition was? I assume it was the marketing restrictions but I don't see what it had said prior.
Sure thing, glad to help.

As far as I can tell the resolution that got this pushback did not contain any new codes or guidelines but was a proposal for some governmental oversight type of machinery to put some teeth in the existing ones. My wild guess is politicians worried somebody might have wanted to be able to impose fines on formula manufacturers who flaunted the codes or something.

Again, the resolution that was proposed and withdrawn after pressure from the US "URGES Member States to implement and/or strengthen national monitoring and enforcement mechanisms for effective implementation of national measures aimed at giving effect to the International Code of Marketing of Breast-milk Substitutes and subsequent relevant World Health Assembly resolutions; (...) implementation of the Guidance on Ending the Inappropriate Promotion of Foods for Infants and Young Children" which are the two documents I've mostly been quoting. That's really about it.
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Old 12th July 2018, 09:13 AM   #117
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Ah, missed the editing window - was just checking I had the right idea. So yeah, the proposed and withdrawn one wanted monitoring/enforcement of both the Code and the Guidance, and the one that passed calls for monitoring/enforcement of the Code and drops mention of the Guidance.
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Old 12th July 2018, 09:51 AM   #118
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I'm also assuming the attention right now is due to recent stuff like The Guardian's story on illegal and apparently predatory formula marketing in the Philippines, from early 2018.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...targeting-poor

resulting in this kind of stuff:

"Many women were found to be spending up to three-quarters of their income on formula for their babies, sometimes denying themselves food to afford it. Some were living without running water and electricity, causing problems when trying to sterilise bottles."

"In statements to the Guardian made after the investigation, all companies denied any wrongdoing. However, both Nestlé and Mead Johnson defended funding conference trips for doctors, even though the Department of Health confirmed it was illegal in the Philippines."

Now, I personally would not at all mind walking back the 'avoid formula' stuff far enough to get the support of "don't you tell me I'm a bad mom for not breastfeeding my infant" first-world blogger moms, because IMO the real issue is predatory sales aimed at getting low income, low information mothers hooked on formula they can't easily afford, to their own detriment and to detriment of their infants' health.

"do not give out free samples unless you are able to, on request, offer enough formula to raise an infant at a cost of less than 5% of the mothers' total resources" is the kind of compromise I'd be satisfied with.

BTW, as far as I can tell the wording you object to, "All information on artificial feeding, including labels, should explain the benefits of breastfeeding and the costs and hazards associated with artificial feeding," does not seem to be official WHO wording. I think it comes from the Baby-Friendly USA website's summary of the Code. They're the organization that can give out the "Baby-Friendly" accreditation that means a facility is certified as complying with the Code.

"The BFHI assists hospitals in giving mothers the information, confidence, and skills necessary to successfully initiate and continue breastfeeding their babies or safely feed with formula, and gives special recognition to hospitals that have done so."

Last edited by Lithrael; 12th July 2018 at 10:29 AM.
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Old 12th July 2018, 10:33 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post

"do not give out free samples unless you are able to, on request, offer enough formula to raise an infant at a cost of less than 5% of the mothers' total resources" is the kind of compromise I'd be satisfied with.

BTW, as far as I can tell the wording you object to, "All information on artificial feeding, including labels, should explain the benefits of breastfeeding and the costs and hazards associated with artificial feeding," does not seem to be official WHO wording at all; it's found on various unaffiliated websites summing-up the 1981 Code.
Thanks for all that info. It sure points to the motive for rejecting it being an enforceable restriction. I agree with rejecting it, but likely for different reasons!

In the U.S. the gov't will provide formula through WIC. I have seen powder canisters locked in a case or having security tags so it must be popular to steal. (then again, we have a high illegal population here that won't be signed up for WIC).

Which brings up an interesting tidbit on that. The gov't (each state really) has very large contracts for these products with the major suppliers. Wonder if that factors into this? I'll never assume the gov't wants to save money. haha.

Last edited by Sherkeu; 12th July 2018 at 10:34 AM.
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Old 12th July 2018, 10:59 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
Women who don't breastfeed are uninterested in their children?
Impossible. My mother chose not to breastfeed, and to this day, she is completely obsessed with me.
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