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Old 4th July 2018, 01:02 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
What did some of your diplomats experience in Cuba?
US diplomats in Cuba and in China have experienced a strange kind of illness, that some people think is the result of an attack with a new kind of weapon. PartSkeptic wants us to believe that this was electromagnetic radiation as experienced by people living close to cell phone masts.
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Old 4th July 2018, 02:07 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
How do you think you might test that?
Why would he need to test it? His intuition tells him it is so and he knows he can trust his intuition.
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Old 4th July 2018, 04:01 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Because it has nothing to do with the (alleged) problem at hand.
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Old 4th July 2018, 05:10 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
US diplomats in Cuba and in China have experienced a strange kind of illness, that some people think is the result of an attack with a new kind of weapon. PartSkeptic wants us to believe that this was electromagnetic radiation as experienced by people living close to cell phone masts.

I know, I know! I just wanted to hear PartSkeptic's version of the story!
(There's a meeting with a Cuban specialist in occupational medicine tonight. I look forward to hearing her take on the alleged Cuban attacks on U.S. 'diplomats'.)
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Old 4th July 2018, 05:19 AM   #245
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I would like to add:

Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
I have no idea what you are feeling, but it is certainly an established fact that people imagine that they can feel things that are not actually there (...)

Emily Rosa's test is a good example of this.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 4th July 2018, 08:15 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
US diplomats in Cuba and in China have experienced a strange kind of illness, that some people think is the result of an attack with a new kind of weapon. PartSkeptic wants us to believe that this was electromagnetic radiation as experienced by people living close to cell phone masts.

"I want you to believe". No, I do not!

I have offered a possible cause.

The sound theory seems to have been debunked. What are the other theories?

At least the symptoms tend to line up with the symptoms of people who say they are suffering from an excess of cell phone radiation.

Got a better explanation? Flying teapots? Aliens?
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Old 4th July 2018, 08:17 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why would he need to test it? His intuition tells him it is so and he knows he can trust his intuition.

You have been paying attention. Good for you.

You get five gold stars and you also get the day off tomorrow.
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Old 4th July 2018, 09:07 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
At least the symptoms tend to line up with the symptoms of people who say they are suffering from an excess of cell phone radiation.

Which have not been demonstrated to be caused by cell phone radiation:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19681059/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21769898/
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Old 4th July 2018, 09:08 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I have offered a possible cause.
You really haven't, you know. Not until you have provided (a) objective evidence that the specific symptoms reported (which IIRC include actual brain damage) can result from the cause you are suggesting and (b) a plausible mechanism by which said cause can create said symptoms.
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Old 4th July 2018, 11:45 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
You really haven't, you know. Not until you have provided (a) objective evidence that the specific symptoms reported (which IIRC include actual brain damage) can result from the cause you are suggesting and (b) a plausible mechanism by which said cause can create said symptoms.

a) No brain damage needed to cause some symptoms

b) VGCC disruption for some symptoms

Explain the "brain damage" actually suffered? They are saying it mimics brain damage from the quick search I did.

Can the microwave "noise" due to cycled heating in the ear not lead to physical damage like tinnitus?

Can pulsed heating cause cyclic expansion and contraction in the brain and thus lead to micro "concussive shock" which then accumulates until it is noticeable?

Here I am talking about 24 hours a day of pulsed microwave to human brains and not the continuous and occasional microwave given to rats.



Oh wait... Now we have sonic effects in the brain caused by cell phone pulsed signals. So the SOUND may just be the culprit from emf within the consulate instead of sonic waves beamed from the outside.
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Old 4th July 2018, 01:30 PM   #251
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If there were no actual trauma the likeliest explanation of the reported symptoms of the US consulate staff would indeed be the same as the likeliest explanation of the reported symptoms of those who believe they are affected by cell phone masts, i.e. they're psychosomatic. But that does not appear to be the case:

http://uk.businessinsider.com/us-dip...-attack-2018-6

Quote:
The fact that a number of these symptoms could be subjective has raised questions about the possibility that this group of people is suffering from some sort of collective delusion, according to the study authors. But they say that mass delusion is unlikely, since affected individuals were all highly motivated and of a broad age distribution, factors that don't normally correspond with mass psychogenic illness. Plus, objective tests of ears and eye motion all revealed real clinical abnormalities.

The symptoms seem consistent with some form of mild brain trauma, according to the researchers. But these symptoms persisted far longer than most concussion symptoms do, and were not associated with blunt head trauma.

"These individuals appeared to have sustained injury to widespread brain networks without an associated history of head trauma," the study authors wrote.
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Old 4th July 2018, 02:31 PM   #252
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You're wrong, that does appear to be the case:

Business Insider gets a couple of things wrong in their article:

1) It is true that the authors of the medical study say that "mass delusion is unlikely, since affected individuals were all highly motivated and of a broad age distribution." However, a leading article in the same edition of JAMA points out that they haven't understood what psychogenic illness/mass hysteria is when they claim that motivation and a broad age distribution are "factors that don't normally correspond with mass psychogenic illness." They confuse psychogenic illness with absenteeism, a bad excuse people come up with because they don't want to work. This mistake is inexcusable!
See this post in the thread about the alleged Cuban attacks on U.S. diplomats. And this post in the same thread with a reference to Robert Bartholomew, one of the world's leading experts in mass psychogenic illnesses, and his criticism of the JAMA study.

2) It's also not true that "objective tests of ears and eye motion all (!) revealed real clinical abnormalities." Very few of their tests revealed "real clinical abnormalities" and a large majority of those allegedly affected have returned to work. Only a couple of cases show signs of permanent damage, and there appears to be no actual reason to think that those cases were caused by any kind of "attacks" - unless you would use the word in a context like: attacked by Alzheimer's ...

Unfortunately, too many journalists dealing with this theme didn't read the JAMA editorial!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 4th July 2018, 02:47 PM   #253
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Interesting. Thanks for that, dann. I must say my first thought when I read the initial reports of the "mystery illness" was that it was most likely psychosomatic, looks like I was too quick to dismiss that possibility. I hadn't seen the other thread about it, I'll take a longer look at it when I have time.
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Old 4th July 2018, 04:14 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
You have been paying attention. Good for you.

You get five gold stars and you also get the day off tomorrow.
Okay, cool. You can respond to Darat. Can you respond to me?
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Old 4th July 2018, 11:34 PM   #255
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Why no response to my hypothesis that the antennae at the consulates might be responsible? I gave a rational basis for that happening.

First, I said that the effects may have indeed been thermal.

It has been accepted that pulsed cell phone emf does cause thermal expansion in tissue in the ears and that some (note not all) people can hear this noise. Microphones confirm the noise.

If one takes multiple frequencies that operate in a pulsed fashion then it seems reasonable to postulate that one gets interference patterns of high and low intensity.

It this happens in the brain, then one is going to get patterns of high and low heating which will cause patterns of localized and very rapid heating. There will be mini or micro "shock waves" that might cause brain damage or dysfunction at least.

It has been accepted that the body repairs and regenerates so any period of non-exposure allows micro-damage to be repaired. This is a problem with many of the tests. They do not allow for 24 hour exposure day after day. Were the affected consulate officials living at the complex?

This could also explain the "recovery" when the people are moved from the facility. If the US then rotates the personnel or has them live away from the complex, then it could be like ordinary radiation damage repairing itself.

The last thing the US government wants is to state that the damage was caused by cell phone radiation from the base stations on the roof. We may have to wait 30 years for declassification. By then, the data for base station damage on the elderly, the sick and young children may be more than obvious.
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Old 4th July 2018, 11:43 PM   #256
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Dann's opening post in the other thread which I only now looked at:

Quote:
Some felt vibrations, and heard sounds — loud ringing or a high-pitch chirping similar to crickets or cicadas. Others heard the grinding noise. Some victims awoke with ringing in their ears and fumbled for their alarm clocks, only to discover the ringing stopped when they moved away from their beds.

The attacks seemed to come at night. Several victims reported they came in minute-long bursts.

Yet others heard nothing, felt nothing. Later, their symptoms came.

This what emf tower sufferers report.

The minute-long bursts can be when the tower responds to an incoming cell call it boosts its output power until it can readjust the signal level based on the noise.

Where are the antennae mounted compared to the sleeping quarters?

Stopped when they moved away from their beds? Standing wave patterns?
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Old 4th July 2018, 11:49 PM   #257
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Checkmite in the other thread said:

Quote:
This explanation makes a whole lot of sense. Any embassy is bound to be flooded with radio frequencies, both from listening equipment installed by other nations' intelligence service and jammers installed by the embassy nation's counterintelligence services. These frequencies are normally inaudible of course; but the experiment proves that audible sounds can be produced at foci of frequency interference. This could easily explain the sounds heard by some - specifically the phenomenon reported by some that the sounds were extremely local; that is, that one could move one's body in and out of a small focused "zone" of audible sound. This small area is where the frequency interference happened to produce the audible tones.
Quote:
The waves spread out; but points of wave interference will remain stationary as long as whatever objects or devices are emitting the respective waves stay stationary.
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Old 5th July 2018, 12:32 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Why no response to my hypothesis that the antennae at the consulates might be responsible? I gave a rational basis for that happening.

In Guangzhou, it's people employed at the U.S. consulate. In Havana, they're embassy employees. However, the ones who reported sonic attacks (or maybe sonic symptoms would be a better word in this context) weren't at the embassy or consulate at the time. They were at their hotels! So your hypothesis falls flat immediately - unless you want to claim that it was caused by the hotel wifi, and you might as well since that appears to be your general idea.

Quote:
(...)
This could also explain the "recovery" when the people are moved from the facility. If the US then rotates the personnel or has them live away from the complex, then it could be like ordinary radiation damage repairing itself.

Again: When the alleged super-sonic symptoms appeared, they weren't at the "facility" or at the "complex". They were at their hotels. Hotel Capri has been mentioned a couple of times.
Hotel Capri, google map.
U.S. Embassy, Havana, google map.

Quote:
The last thing the US government wants is to state that the damage was caused by cell phone radiation from the base stations on the roof. We may have to wait 30 years for declassification. By then, the data for base station damage on the elderly, the sick and young children may be more than obvious.

Again: Unless they had placed "base stations on the roof" of the hotels, it doesn't explain their symptoms when they were there and not at the embassy or the consulate.
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Old 5th July 2018, 12:40 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
This what emf tower sufferers report.

But this is also what for instance tinnitus sufferers report.

Quote:
The minute-long bursts can be when the tower responds to an incoming cell call it boosts its output power until it can readjust the signal level based on the noise.

Where are the antennae mounted compared to the sleeping quarters?

Stopped when they moved away from their beds? Standing wave patterns?

Tinnitus stops, i.e. you don't notice it, when you get up and do something else. It doesn't require more than turning on the TV or listening to some music. All you need to do is to stop listening to the sounds in your head.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 5th July 2018, 12:55 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Checkmite in the other thread said:

You seem to assume that Checkmite's post wasn't contradicted by other posters, some of the acoustics experts. I recommend that you read the whole thread, in particular the cicada and cricket discussion!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 5th July 2018, 02:23 AM   #261
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At least you're right about one thing, PartSkeptic: The mystery illness in the U.S. consulate in Guangzhou and the U.S. Embassy in Havana and your suffering due to the emf tower are one and the same thing!

Quote:
… the radio waves used in mobile communication cause headaches, nausea, exhaustion, tingling, trouble concentrating, and gastrointestinal distress, among other symptoms.
The Nocebo Effect: How We Worry Ourselves Sick (The New Yorker, Mar. 29, 2013)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 5th July 2018, 03:28 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
In Guangzhou, it's people employed at the U.S. consulate. In Havana, they're embassy employees. However, the ones who reported sonic attacks (or maybe sonic symptoms would be a better word in this context) weren't at the embassy or consulate at the time. They were at their hotels! So your hypothesis falls flat immediately - unless you want to claim that it was caused by the hotel wifi, and you might as well since that appears to be your general idea.

Again: When the alleged super-sonic symptoms appeared, they weren't at the "facility" or at the "complex". They were at their hotels. Hotel Capri has been mentioned a couple of times.
Hotel Capri, google map.
U.S. Embassy, Havana, google map.

Again: Unless they had placed "base stations on the roof" of the hotels, it doesn't explain their symptoms when they were there and not at the embassy or the consulate.

I have now read quite a few of the reports. In one of them: https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...sh-for-anyone/ they mention microwave. And no explanation as to why microwave is mentioned.

Maybe the individuals only noticed the symptoms when they got into bed at home. I know that when I am focused on work, I am not aware of the pains and aches I have until I take a break.

Various symptoms are aggravated by circadian rhythms, as well as dietary rhythms. If one's hydration changes due to respiration drops when sleeping, that can trigger headaches.

Did Russia and/or China figure out that pulsed microwave with multiple antennae can cause standing waves in a person's brain - and try to weaponize that? And see if it was picked up by the enemy? Make a few people a bit more "pliable"?

Why has the issue been dropped?

Perhaps Russia and China know that a 7cm standing wave cannot cause spot heating in a rat brain and that is takes a human brain to get an effect. One could test prisoners, but perhaps the US was an acceptable target?

One has to look at the histroy of US experiments to see that certain groups were seen as "acceptable" subjects. Prisoners, other races, other nations.

Just because what I am saying IS a conspiracy theory does not mean it rules it out as false.
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Old 5th July 2018, 03:29 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You seem to assume that Checkmite's post wasn't contradicted by other posters, some of the acoustics experts. I recommend that you read the whole thread, in particular the cicada and cricket discussion!

The issue was standing waves and radio waves. Not the whole other acoustical cricket thing.
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Old 5th July 2018, 04:03 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
How do you think you might test that?

Yes, you are quite right. I should respond to you.

Quote:
I posted:
I am trying to get a handle on what the rate of increase is of cancer cells due to continuous (24 hour and not 9 hours on and 15 hours off) pulsed (due to the type of communication and the time division multiplexing) multi-frequency (due to the number of antennae with different service providers) all operating at the same time.

One has to model a human head and brain. Then set up multiple antennae, and use a transmission that is realistic. The various antennae must time division multiplex rotating every half millisecond or so with 8 phantom cell phones. They need to then set up vibration detectors in the model head, and perhaps thermal sensors. There should some pattern of switching and of cell voice and/or data comms that might cause standing waves.

It should be possible to model this on a computer simulation as well.

The change in dielectric strength, as well as absorption, need to be included.

If one can show (for example) that a standing wave peak occurs just in front of the ear for 0.5 milliseconds and then switches to a peak just behind the ear, and this pattern can repeat for a minute or two then there might be some damage that mimics mild concussive trauma.

It these peaks occur frequently throughout the day, and one is exposed for 24 hours then cell towers should not be put next to the sick, the elderly or children - as a matter of "the precautionary principle". I would invoke this principle if a preliminary study shows that such a mechanism is a strong possibility.

Now one understands why so many experiments can show no damage. Rodent brains are too small for a standing wave shift, there is only a single antenna used (usually a simple dipole), and they use a single frequency fixed amplitude drive with no possibility of resonance in the chamber.

And rats cannot communicate slight mood changes connected to brain function.

The other way to do it is to roll out the towers and in 30 years check the population. But there is no control group, except to cross check on a massive scale, and even if there are huge health problems, the results are likely to be inconclusive as to the cause.
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Old 5th July 2018, 04:05 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I have now read quite a few of the reports. In one of them: https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...sh-for-anyone/ they mention microwave. And no explanation as to why microwave is mentioned.

It's a good article. Did you notice the title?
Quote:
“Sonic Weapon Attacks” on U.S. Embassy Don’t Add Up—for Anyone
Cuban scientists and a new American report both shoot down a list of bizarre theories

Of course, they mention microwaves. They mention all the bizarre theories that have come into play.


Quote:
Maybe the individuals only noticed the symptoms when they got into bed at home. I know that when I am focused on work, I am not aware of the pains and aches I have until I take a break.

My guess is that you are not only unaware "of the pains and aches." You don't actually have them because they are psychosomatic.

Quote:
Various symptoms are aggravated by circadian rhythms, as well as dietary rhythms. If one's hydration changes due to respiration drops when sleeping, that can trigger headaches.

Did Russia and/or China figure out that pulsed microwave with multiple antennae can cause standing waves in a person's brain - and try to weaponize that? And see if it was picked up by the enemy? Make a few people a bit more "pliable"?

The short answer: No, they didn't!

Quote:
Why has the issue been dropped?

The issue hasn't been dropped. The reason why it hasn't been dropped is that Rubio, Tillerson et al are too fond of the idea to drop it.

Quote:
Perhaps Russia and China know that a 7cm standing wave cannot cause spot heating in a rat brain and that is takes a human brain to get an effect. One could test prisoners, but perhaps the US was an acceptable target?

Alien Attack? Mass Hysteria? Conspiracy?

Quote:
One has to look at the histroy of US experiments to see that certain groups were seen as "acceptable" subjects. Prisoners, other races, other nations.

Just because what I am saying IS a conspiracy theory does not mean it rules it out as false.

No, it just means that you have to make it look at least likely! And right now, it's hard to tell which conspiracy theory you are talking about: Is it the one where the Russians, the Chinese and/or the Cubans are attacking U.S. diplomats and other CIA operatives? Or the one where the USA is experimenting with its own employees? Or maybe the one where the USA accidentally fried their brains with ems towers on top of the embassy in Havana and the consulate in Guangzhou?
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Old 5th July 2018, 04:13 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
The issue was standing waves and radio waves. Not the whole other acoustical cricket thing.

Yes, that is your issue! However, nothing whatsoever makes your idea of standing waves and radio waves any more likely as an explanation for the symptoms of the U.S. diplomats than the cricket conspiracy.
(Have you considered that the crickets and the cicadas may have laid eggs in the ear canals of the diplomats? And that the hatched larvae are, at this very moment, eating their way through the white matter of the unfortunates? And that you yourself may be similarly afflicted?)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 5th July 2018, 04:30 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Quote:
Plus, objective tests of ears and eye motion all revealed real clinical abnormalities.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/us-dip...-attack-2018-6

For the sake of perspective on the Business Insider article: This is from the article in Scientific American in PartSkeptic's link today:

Quote:
Adding yet another element to the mystery, the new findings show normal MRI brain scans in all patients, and normal hearing in all but three individuals.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 5th July 2018, 08:09 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
My guess is that you are not only unaware "of the pains and aches." You don't actually have them because they are psychosomatic.

The Xray of my knee shows that it is bone on bone and twisted. And you say I have no pain. What I have now is no words to respond to you.

So what do you think is the problem? Why are the "experts" confused and disagreeing with each other?
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Old 5th July 2018, 08:20 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
For the sake of perspective on the Business Insider article: This is from the article in Scientific American in PartSkeptic's link today:

Check the dates. The Scientific American article was 16 Feb 2018 and the other article was 6 June 2018. The later one states "Some even showed signs of brain swelling or concussions — mild traumatic brain injuries."

How about you look at my post #255 and tell me what is unreasonable about it or where it is in error?
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Old 5th July 2018, 09:13 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
The Xray of my knee shows that it is bone on bone and twisted. And you say I have no pain. What I have now is no words to respond to you.

So what do you think is the problem? Why are the "experts" confused and disagreeing with each other?

It might be a good idea for you to specify exactly what "pains and aches" you are talking about since they don't appear to be the ones allegedly caused by mites or electromagnetism in this case. If the X-rays say bone on bone, I believe you. I also believe that it hurts like hell and that you're able to forget about it for a while when you're preoccupied with something else.
It would also help if you told us which "experts" you're talking about now and why you use quotation marks.
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Old 5th July 2018, 09:24 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Check the dates. The Scientific American article was 16 Feb 2018 and the other article was 6 June 2018. The later one states "Some even showed signs of brain swelling or concussions — mild traumatic brain injuries."

What is your point?

Quote:
How about you look at my post #255 and tell me what is unreasonable about it or where it is in error?

How about you look at my post 258? They didn't hear the weird sounds at the embassy. They did so at their hotel! So what is your claim now? That you hear weird pulsating sounds when "ordinary (?) radiation damage (is) repairing itself"??!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 6th July 2018, 03:52 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It might be a good idea for you to specify exactly what "pains and aches" you are talking about since they don't appear to be the ones allegedly caused by mites or electromagnetism in this case. If the X-rays say bone on bone, I believe you. I also believe that it hurts like hell and that you're able to forget about it for a while when you're preoccupied with something else.
It would also help if you told us which "experts" you're talking about now and why you use quotation marks.

I have aches and pains due to damage to my nervous systems which I used to think was caused by histoplasmosis but I now think was caused by Ciprofloxacin. The histoplasmosis damage shows as scarring on my lungs, as well as scarring on my retinas.

Most of the pain is muscle pain - as if I have over-exercised.

The mites have not caused me pain, and I have not claimed that I get pains from emf.

The experts are the ones who are testing and making comments on the consulate victims.
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Old 6th July 2018, 07:01 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I have aches and pains due to damage to my nervous systems which I used to think was caused by histoplasmosis but I now think was caused by Ciprofloxacin. The histoplasmosis damage shows as scarring on my lungs, as well as scarring on my retinas.

Most of the pain is muscle pain - as if I have over-exercised.

The mites have not caused me pain, and I have not claimed that I get pains from emf.

It sounds extremely unpleasant! I empathize with you. (Not that that'll do any good.) But you shouldn't add to your worries with illnesses of the psychogenic kind. (I still recommend that you do the double-blinded tests described above.)

Quote:
The experts are the ones who are testing and making comments on the consulate victims.

A lot of the people making comments on the consulate victims are journalists (and some of them are politicians!), and very often they get it wrong. Some of the actual experts are operating outside of their fields of expertise, for instance when the ones doing the study published in JAMA don't know the basic concepts of mass psychogenic illness.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th July 2018, 01:59 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It sounds extremely unpleasant! I empathize with you. (Not that that'll do any good.) But you shouldn't add to your worries with illnesses of the psychogenic kind. (I still recommend that you do the double-blinded tests described above.)

Thanks for your empathy. I do not worry about things. I decide to either accept a situation, fight against it or move.

My wife objects to the tower on a visual basis, and we are both very unhappy about the fraud that was perpetrated to get it installed. It is our opinion, based on numerous articles, that there is a chance of health risk. The choice is whether to ignore possible risks or decide to relocate.

I have to have a solid enough legal case to show that there is doubt as to the Health Departments policy that towers are risk-free.

That doubt should have been used by the building inspector (together with the adverse visual impact and house value impact) as justification to refuse the application. He should have invoked the NEMA precautionary principle.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
A lot of the people making comments on the consulate victims are journalists (and some of them are politicians!), and very often they get it wrong. Some of the actual experts are operating outside of their fields of expertise, for instance when the ones doing the study published in JAMA don't know the basic concepts of mass psychogenic illness.

I am in full agreement.

BTW: My hypothesis about standing wave patterns in the human brain requires me to put numbers to it. The power amplitudes, the spacing of peaks, the frequency of peak shifts, the heating/expansion effects and so on.

The cell phone company experts may not be to prove I have made erroneous statements, but they will try to confuse the establishment with numbers. As many here have tried to do.

Example: Microwave radiation is subject to quantum theory and the radiation is emitted in photon packets of energy. To get absorbed, there must be a compatible energy level shift. Red dyes do not absorb red light so it is reflected to give an appearance of being red.

If a microwave photon hits a molecule and increases the vibrational energy, and if a stream of photons hit in rapid succession, the molecule can absorb a lot of energy before it is able to return to its average state. A typical vibrational energy is 0.1eV. It can reduce its energy level by either colliding with other molecules or by emitting UV photons.

That energy increase could cause disruption if the molecule is loosely bound. The binding energy of a loosely bound molecule is 1 eV. If it is in a state of generating new cells then the disruptive energy may be lower.

The energy to ionize an atom or molecule is taken as being above 10 eV (the binding energy of a tightly bound molecule). The energy of a 2.45 GHz photon is 7.44 micro eV.

When one works out the number of photons being emitted by a 50-Watt cell antenna it is in the order of gazillions. Of course, one has to work out the probability of a million strikes (absorptions) in a tiny period of time. One could do this with average wattage and average heating I think.

It comes down to numbers which in the quantum world are typically enormous in everyday situations. Then, one needs millions of these in a 24 hour period to get a significant increase in cancer. The probability is not zero and may not be insignificant.
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Old 7th July 2018, 02:17 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Thanks for your empathy. I do not worry about things. I decide to either accept a situation, fight against it or move.

My wife objects to the tower on a visual basis, and we are both very unhappy about the fraud that was perpetrated to get it installed. It is our opinion, based on numerous articles, that there is a chance of health risk. The choice is whether to ignore possible risks or decide to relocate.

I have to have a solid enough legal case to show that there is doubt as to the Health Departments policy that towers are risk-free.

That doubt should have been used by the building inspector (together with the adverse visual impact and house value impact) as justification to refuse the application. He should have invoked the NEMA precautionary principle.




I am in full agreement.

BTW: My hypothesis about standing wave patterns in the human brain requires me to put numbers to it. The power amplitudes, the spacing of peaks, the frequency of peak shifts, the heating/expansion effects and so on.

The cell phone company experts may not be to prove I have made erroneous statements, but they will try to confuse the establishment with numbers. As many here have tried to do.

Example: Microwave radiation is subject to quantum theory and the radiation is emitted in photon packets of energy. To get absorbed, there must be a compatible energy level shift. Red dyes do not absorb red light so it is reflected to give an appearance of being red.

If a microwave photon hits a molecule and increases the vibrational energy, and if a stream of photons hit in rapid succession, the molecule can absorb a lot of energy before it is able to return to its average state. A typical vibrational energy is 0.1eV. It can reduce its energy level by either colliding with other molecules or by emitting UV photons.

That energy increase could cause disruption if the molecule is loosely bound. The binding energy of a loosely bound molecule is 1 eV. If it is in a state of generating new cells then the disruptive energy may be lower.

The energy to ionize an atom or molecule is taken as being above 10 eV (the binding energy of a tightly bound molecule). The energy of a 2.45 GHz photon is 7.44 micro eV.

When one works out the number of photons being emitted by a 50-Watt cell antenna it is in the order of gazillions. Of course, one has to work out the probability of a million strikes (absorptions) in a tiny period of time. One could do this with average wattage and average heating I think.

It comes down to numbers which in the quantum world are typically enormous in everyday situations. Then, one needs millions of these in a 24 hour period to get a significant increase in cancer. The probability is not zero and may not be insignificant.

If you’re worried about microwave radiation doing this, I hope you have all your light bulbs adequately shielded.

Do you have street lighting where you live?
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Old 7th July 2018, 03:55 AM   #276
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Incidentally, exactly what loosely bound molecules are you talking about?
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Old 7th July 2018, 09:07 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
You really haven't, you know. Not until you have provided (a) objective evidence that the specific symptoms reported (which IIRC include actual brain damage) can result from the cause you are suggesting and (b) a plausible mechanism by which said cause can create said symptoms.

When you've got one whole hour, you should listen to the podcast with Dr. Robert E. Bartholomew.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th July 2018, 09:24 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
My wife objects to the tower on a visual basis

I can relate to that! There's no denying aesthetics, even when you may disagree.

Quote:
BTW: My hypothesis about standing wave patterns in the human brain requires me to put numbers to it.

The problem with a hypothesis about the alleged harm done by the electromagnetic radiation, including quantum aspects of it, is a little like the problem with hypotheses about dowsing rods or homeopathic medicine ('water memory'): There doesn't seem to be an actual phenomenon that needs an explanation. When you test dowsing or homeopathy - properly, of course, double-blinded etc. - you discover that you can't actually find anything with dowsing rods, and the diluted homeopathic medicine doesn't have any actual effect, which makes hypotheses about what might be behind the (lack of) phenomena irrelevant.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 8th July 2018, 06:23 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
If you’re worried about microwave radiation doing this, I hope you have all your light bulbs adequately shielded.

Do you have street lighting where you live?

Do light bulbs produce radiation that penetrates into the body?

How much gets absorbed by the skin?

Do light bulbs produce thermal heating inside living tissue?

Can people hear light bulbs being switched on and off because of the thermal heating of tissue.

Has the human race been exposed to light for many decades with known benefits and risk factors?

If you can point me to the physics and the scientific papers that support your comparison, then maybe I will take you seriously and start investigating light bulbs.
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Old 8th July 2018, 07:14 AM   #280
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Do CFL Light Bulbs Emit Harmful Levels of Radiation? (Snopes)
However, ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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