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Old 8th July 2018, 07:39 AM   #281
Pixel42
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
If you can point me to the physics and the scientific papers that support your comparison, then maybe I will take you seriously and start investigating light bulbs.
You've missed Mojo's point completely. The electromagnetic spectrum goes from the highest frequency/most energetic end (gamma rays), down through X rays, ultra violet, visible light, infra red, microwaves and finally radio waves which are the lowest frequency/least energetic. Gamma rays are the most damaging to tissue, radio waves the least damaging (zero damage). Compare where the ones you're so concerned about are on the spectrum to where light is and you might understand why Mojo is asking what steps you are taking to shield yourself from visible light.

ETA: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elec...netic_spectrum
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Old 8th July 2018, 07:42 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Incidentally, exactly what loosely bound molecules are you talking about?

This is now a good question.

I took it from a table of binding energies.

To follow up, there are loosely bound water molecules which play an important part in humans. Some of the loosely bound molecules are the ones forming a "skin" on the outside of membranes to hydrate them.

They are more than just water molecules and regulate various processes.

One source gave a figure of 2-30 kJ/mol (which is about 2-20 milli eV).

See
http://www.exobiologie.fr/index.php/...acromolecules/

and

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...lated_diseases

Many of the effects of radiation on various systems of molecules are dependent on the frequency as well as the magnitude.
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Old 8th July 2018, 07:52 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
You've missed Mojo's point completely. The electromagnetic spectrum goes from the highest frequency/most energetic end (gamma rays), down through X rays, ultra violet, visible light, infra red, microwaves and finally radio waves which are the lowest frequency/least energetic. Gamma rays are the most damaging to tissue, radio waves the least damaging. Compare where the ones you're so concerned about are on the spectrum to where light is and you might understand why Mojo is asking what steps you are taking to shield yourself from visible light.

And you think I am not very aware of this? Could you not tell from the questions I asked him?

You are limiting yourself to the most obvious and simplistic effects of radiation, and ignoring absorption, penetration, resonance, electrical fields, power densities, pulsation, interference effects and many more. You show little understanding of biological processes and their complexity. You put humans on the complexity level of machines and computers.

Read my recent posts, especially the one just before this.

If one put a little bit of sand in the oil of a car and checked it after a month there would be almost no measurable effect. But its lifespan would be noticeably decreased. You could contribute the decreased lifespan to poor assembly and poor materials used at the start, but we all know that the sand slowly grinds the parts down.
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Old 8th July 2018, 11:04 AM   #284
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Notice - just a bit of conspiracy humor. I am not serious at all.

If the Russians had won their World Cup soccer match against Croatia one could maybe say that the Russians knew that microwaves could be configured to cause mild concussive brain trauma and had tested it on the Americans at the consulates to see at what levels it could be detected, and if microwaves would be blamed as the cause.

We are blaming the Russians for the UK poisonings and for affecting the US elections, so what is wrong with this bit of imaginative scheming? Microwaving the opposing teams.

Once more - do not take me seriously at all. The Russians did very well, and are feeling justifiably proud of their team. The home field advantage is a powerful psychological booster. They would never risk anything that would possibly tarnish their hosting of such a world event.

And of course, no one believes microwave radiation can have such effects, now do they?

When South Africa won a rugby world cup here in Johannesburg the Kiwis raised the excuse that they had been given "bad food" deliberately and were suffering from the ill effects.
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Old 8th July 2018, 11:18 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
And of course, no one believes microwave radiation can have such effects, now do they?


Well, I wouldn't recommend putting your head (or your poodle) in a microwave oven, but now it seems that the U.S. diplomats may not suffer from a "concussion-like syndrome" after all. See my latest post in the US-may-close-Cuba-Embassy-over-'health-attacks' thread. A letter in the Journal of Neurology from two neuroscientists criticizes the study published in JAMA by doctors at the University of Pennsylvania as "seriously flawed".
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Old 8th July 2018, 11:59 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by dann View Post

Well, I wouldn't recommend putting your head (or your poodle) in a microwave oven, but now it seems that the U.S. diplomats may not suffer from a "concussion-like syndrome" after all. See my latest post in the US-may-close-Cuba-Embassy-over-'health-attacks' thread. A letter in the Journal of Neurology from two neuroscientists criticizes the study published in JAMA by doctors at the University of Pennsylvania as "seriously flawed".

Is that what the article said?

I thought it just said that the test was too broad and unscientific to establish anything. That does not mean that there were no "Sonic-like" impairments to the sufferers or that they did not suffer concussion-like syndrome.

There was a test in the UK that was run using emf-hyper-sensitive individuals. They got a small group together and started tests. A number left the group because of the discomfort.

The conclusion was that there was no verifiable evidence that such people actually suffered. Why? Because the sample was deemed too small. That detail was not obvious, and the test is cited as "proof" of lack of risk.

As for microwave explosions. True story. A Kiwi engineer microwaved three eggs. He put them in a bowl of water thinking that the water would stop the eggs from overheating. It did not. The fatty proteins preferentially absorbed the microwaves. All three exploded simultaneously, blowing the door open and spraying a fine yellow mist across the room. Luckily, none of us were in the room at the time. It would have made a great slow motion video.
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Old 9th July 2018, 12:15 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
This is now a good question.

I took it from a table of binding energies.

To follow up, there are loosely bound water molecules which play an important part in humans. Some of the loosely bound molecules are the ones forming a "skin" on the outside of membranes to hydrate them.

They are more than just water molecules and regulate various processes.

One source gave a figure of 2-30 kJ/mol (which is about 2-20 milli eV).

See
http://www.exobiologie.fr/index.php/...acromolecules/

and

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...lated_diseases

Hydrogen bonding, then.

Quote:
Many of the effects of radiation on various systems of molecules are dependent on the frequency as well as the magnitude.

Yes, that’s what we’ve been telling you.
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Old 9th July 2018, 12:36 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
There was a test in the UK that was run using emf-hyper-sensitive individuals. They got a small group together and started tests. A number left the group because of the discomfort.

The conclusion was that there was no verifiable evidence that such people actually suffered. Why? Because the sample was deemed too small. That detail was not obvious, and the test is cited as "proof" of lack of risk.

Do you have a reference for where this “test” was reported?

Quote:
As for microwave explosions. True story. A Kiwi engineer microwaved three eggs. He put them in a bowl of water thinking that the water would stop the eggs from overheating. It did not. The fatty proteins preferentially absorbed the microwaves. All three exploded simultaneously, blowing the door open and spraying a fine yellow mist across the room. Luckily, none of us were in the room at the time. It would have made a great slow motion video.

What do you think this anecdote shows? We already know that microwave ovens work.
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Old 9th July 2018, 12:49 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
As for microwave explosions. True story. A Kiwi engineer microwaved three eggs. He put them in a bowl of water thinking that the water would stop the eggs from overheating. It did not.
Was this really an engineer? Boiling water can carry away heat because it evaporates, but the eggs are heated from inside so the water cannot stop the heat source from affecting the eggs. The experiment sounds like complete idiocy for me.
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Old 9th July 2018, 03:02 AM   #290
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A couple of months ago when I was on vacation in Las Palmas, I used a microwave oven to boil eggs, one at a time. First I used it to make the water boil in a cup, then I put the egg in and turned the microwave oven on again.
The soft-boiled eggs were fine, but maybe I was just lucky, so I won't recommend it as method in general. I don't have much experience with microwave ovens!
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Old 9th July 2018, 03:18 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Is that what the article said?

Yes, that is what the article said:

Originally Posted by dann View Post
... it seems that the U.S. diplomats may not suffer from a "concussion-like syndrome" after all. See my latest post in the US-may-close-Cuba-Embassy-over-'health-attacks' thread. A letter in the Journal of Neurology from two neuroscientists criticizes the study published in JAMA by doctors at the University of Pennsylvania as "seriously flawed".

I have highlighted the may for you.

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I thought it just said that the test was too broad and unscientific to establish anything. That does not mean that there were no "Sonic-like" impairments to the sufferers or that they did not suffer concussion-like syndrome.

Exactly. It also doesn't mean that there actually were any ""Sonic-like" impairments to the sufferers" or that they actually did "suffer concussion-like syndrome." So there's no reason to think that their suffering was organic rather than psychogenic.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th July 2018, 05:09 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
A couple of months ago when I was on vacation in Las Palmas, I used a microwave oven to boil eggs, one at a time. First I used it to make the water boil in a cup, then I put the egg in and turned the microwave oven on again.
The soft-boiled eggs were fine, but maybe I was just lucky, so I won't recommend it as method in general. I don't have much experience with microwave ovens!
The problem is the rigid egg shell. I once had a couple of largish egg cups intended for holding the contents of an egg for boiling in a microwave oven. The soft-boiled eggs were OK, but there is some romanticism, or pizzazz lost with the shape. For some reason the hard-boiled variety also lacked a bit of taste.
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Old 9th July 2018, 11:55 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
What do you think this anecdote shows? We already know that microwave ovens work.

That sometimes the logic used sounds logical but the actual effects can show that something was overlooked.

The guy was a software engineer. Code does not explode.

One site: Lightly prick the bottom of the egg with a safety pin or thumbtack (IMPORTANT or the egg will explode). Place the egg into the bowl of hot water, cover with a plate, and microwave at 50% power for 4 minutes. If you like a runnier yolk, remove and peel the egg
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Old 9th July 2018, 12:02 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, that is what the article said:

I have highlighted the may for you.

Exactly. It also doesn't mean that there actually were any ""Sonic-like" impairments to the sufferers" or that they actually did "suffer concussion-like syndrome." So there's no reason to think that their suffering was organic rather than psychogenic.

That is what I said. It does not rule out physical damage.


IF damage to a person's brain DOES occur, it would seem that it is not easy to measure or detect.

Let us say that a kid grows up next to a tower and is found to have autism. Can you positively rule out the tower as a possible cause?

Mothers say they would rather not take a chance. They know the agencies and government have both lied, and been wrong, a number of times in the past. Money, money, money.
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Old 9th July 2018, 12:47 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
That is what I said. It does not rule out physical damage.
It gives no good reason to suspect it either.

Quote:
IF damage to a person's brain DOES occur, it would seem that it is not easy to measure or detect.
If damage cannot be measured or detected there is no damage.

Quote:
Let us say that a kid grows up next to a tower and is found to have autism. Can you positively rule out the tower as a possible cause?
If multiple studies show that kids who grow up next to a tower are no more likely to be autistic than children who don't then yes, you certainly can. This is how the MMR vaccine was ruled out as a cause of autism.

Quote:
Mothers say they would rather not take a chance. They know the agencies and government have both lied, and been wrong, a number of times in the past. Money, money, money.
You know that children have died because their mothers were persuaded by bogus health scares to "not take the chance" of getting them vaccinated?
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Old 9th July 2018, 01:29 PM   #296
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Pixel42 has already answered you, PartSkeptic, but let me comment on this one:

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Money, money, money.

The question of profits should make you suspicious when big business claims that something is safe. Two fairly well-known examples:

Quote:
Tobacco kills more than 7 million people each year.
WHO
Quote:
In 1994, it was estimated that trans fats caused 20,000 deaths annually in the United States from heart disease.
Wikipedia

And these links from another thread show my own skepticism of Big Pharma:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post12282394
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...9#post12282609
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6#post12284406

But don't forget that money, money, money also plays an important role in the world of alternative medicine. I can recommend Bob Goldacre's book Bad Science, which criticizes both Big Pharma and Big Alt. Med.
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Old 10th July 2018, 01:04 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
The problem is the rigid egg shell. I once had a couple of largish egg cups intended for holding the contents of an egg for boiling in a microwave oven. The soft-boiled eggs were OK, but there is some romanticism, or pizzazz lost with the shape. For some reason the hard-boiled variety also lacked a bit of taste.

Double blind taste test required.

Would they have tasted different if you had no idea they were cooked in a microwave? Could you tell the difference if you didn't know which was which?
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Old 10th July 2018, 03:29 AM   #298
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You're right, of course. Steen should have somebody set him up for a double-blind test.
However, I have heard people claim that a casserole that got too spicy will become edible if you reheat it in a microwave oven because it loses some of the flavours, but I bet they didn't do a double-blind test.
From experience, I know that reheating a croissant in a microwave oven is not as good as doing it in an oven, but that is a question of texture, not of taste: It is less crispy when it is heated from the inside out instead of the other way. And no, I also never did a double-blinded test of it, but in this case the difference is very obvious. And, of course, very few people eat the shell of a hard-boiled egg!
And there's this: Science: Why microwave cooking fails the taste test (New Scientist, Jan. 18, 1992)
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Old 10th July 2018, 03:53 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Is that what the article said?
As for microwave explosions. True story. A Kiwi engineer microwaved three eggs. He put them in a bowl of water thinking that the water would stop the eggs from overheating. It did not. The fatty proteins preferentially absorbed the microwaves. All three exploded simultaneously, blowing the door open and spraying a fine yellow mist across the room. Luckily, none of us were in the room at the time. It would have made a great slow motion video.
What were you microwaving, emu eggs????
let me just say I doubt the accuracy of this statement
(I love my eggs and usually microwave them, putting them in a sealed container is always a good idea as yes they will explode, and after having to disassemble the microwave as egg had penetrated the light fitting shield and goes a bit pongy after a day or two of ozzie heat- I now have special containers that have a small vent in the top to stop the top blowing off)
Have never seen one explode hard enough to break the door latches open and cover an entire room though
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Old 10th July 2018, 03:59 AM   #300
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It just occurred to me, quadraginta, that there may be a very simple test to determine if the brains of any U.S. diplomats stationed in Havana, Uzbekistan, Guangzhou or Singapore (The State, June 26, 2018) were microwaved:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Double-blinded, of course ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th July 2018, 04:33 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It just occurred to me, quadraginta, that there may be a very simple test to determine if the brains of any U.S. diplomats stationed in Havana, Uzbekistan, Guangzhou or Singapore (The State, June 26, 2018) were microwaved:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Double-blinded, of course ...

This would work.

I would recommend the use of brains from Republican politicians though, since, not having been used for anything, they would provide a more uniform basis for comparison.
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Old 10th July 2018, 04:44 AM   #302
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Right! I'll call Hannibal (the local guy) and ask if he's available.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th July 2018, 05:56 PM   #303
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Interestingly there was a question addressed on the Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast this week about whether non-ionising radiation could be harmful. Steve Novella's thoughtful and nuanced response, in a nutshell, was that we could not absolutely rule it out, but the available evidence is largely negative so it is still extremely unlikely. Basically as close to "no" as an honest scientist can say.
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Old 10th July 2018, 07:25 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Interestingly there was a question addressed on the Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast this week about whether non-ionising radiation could be harmful. Steve Novella's thoughtful and nuanced response, in a nutshell, was that we could not absolutely rule it out, but the available evidence is largely negative so it is still extremely unlikely. Basically as close to "no" as an honest scientist can say.
I read an article recently arguing that oxygen is as harmful as radiation. (The premise being that much of the biological injury from ionising radiation is due to the generation of reactive oxygen species. Breathing high levels of oxygen also generates reactive oxygen species causing 'radiation-like' tissue injury.) Now there are clearly issues with dosing etc. but as a speculative discussion it was interesting reminding one of how toxic oxygen is to life.
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Old 10th July 2018, 10:50 PM   #305
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Here is an article about histoplasmosis. The Thai cave boys.

Note that it says that to get seriously sick, for the infection to spread from the lungs to other organs, one HAS to have a weakened immune system. That was not the case with me, my late wife or my son. So much for the "conventional wisdom".

What was worse was that my son's doctor and my doctor refused to treat us by prescribing the Itraconazole after we both diagnosed ourselves. Because they said it was not possible for us to have the systemic infection.

And after 7 years, I am still on it. Last week I only took about 2 capsules. I got sick again this week and am now on 2 capsules a day to get back to "normal". Our cases are not reported in any medical journal though.

Quote:
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2018/0...nfections.html

Cave disease," also called histoplasmosis, is a lung infection caused by the fungus "Histoplasma," which thrives in areas with high bird or bat populations, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

"People can get histoplasmosis after breathing in the microscopic fungal spores from the air, often after participating in activities that disturb the soil," the CDC explains in a blog post online. "Although most people who breathe in the spores don’t get sick, those who do may have a fever, cough, and fatigue."

Most people who contract histoplasmosis just need time to recover, but those who have weakened immune systems could be at risk for serious, sometimes fatal, infections.

"In some people, such as those who have weakened immune systems, the infection can become severe, especially if it spreads from the lungs to other organs," the CDC says.

There is medicine to treat the disease, however. According to the CDC, many doctors prescribe the antifungal medication Itraconazole, which may need to be taken anywhere from three months to a year in order to completely fight off the infection.
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Old 10th July 2018, 11:01 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
It gives no good reason to suspect it either.


If damage cannot be measured or detected there is no damage.


If multiple studies show that kids who grow up next to a tower are no more likely to be autistic than children who don't then yes, you certainly can. This is how the MMR vaccine was ruled out as a cause of autism.


You know that children have died because their mothers were persuaded by bogus health scares to "not take the chance" of getting them vaccinated?

Something caused the symptoms - and they resemble cell tower symptoms. I would say that is a logical reason.

If God cannot be detected then there is no God. I give you marks for consistency in your logic.

Do we have to wait for the studies on a massive scale over many years to determine this kind of damage? Is it okay to do experiments on the general public, like Ciprofloxacin, where one reassesses initial assumptions? Should we not be a little more proactive and slow down to assess more studies?

How many children will die if they do not have towers next to them? With vaccination, the mothers were faced with a choice of two risks. In the tower case, the choice is risk versus no risk (err on the side of caution). Somewhere two kids died within an hour of getting inoculated. The risk is not zero, but it the latter case it was likely a defective dose.
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Old 10th July 2018, 11:08 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Pixel42 has already answered you, PartSkeptic, but let me comment on this one:

The question of profits should make you suspicious when big business claims that something is safe. Two fairly well-known examples:

And these links from another thread show my own skepticism of Big Pharma:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post12282394
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...9#post12282609
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6#post12284406

But don't forget that money, money, money also plays an important role in the world of alternative medicine. I can recommend Bob Goldacre's book Bad Science, which criticizes both Big Pharma and Big Alt. Med.

Yes to all you have said.

I took my mother home to care for her after a hospitalization. She was taking so many medications prescribed over the years by her doctor including meds for high blood pressure. Over a period of two weeks, I weaned her off all of them. Her blood pressure went to normal and until she died years later, all she needed was the occasional ibuprofen tablet.

My father had diabetes from being overweight. He refused to take insulin and had to cut out sugars. When he got older and lost weight he could eat sugar once more. Yes, I agree.

99% of sinus infections in the USA are untreatable with antibiotics. The doctors say the patients just have to live with it. They do not prescribe the one antibiotic that bacteria never developed a resistance to which is silver. Spray or sniff colloidal silver and one can get rid of such infections. But it is seen as alternative medicine
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Old 10th July 2018, 11:08 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Note that it says that to get seriously sick, for the infection to spread from the lungs to other organs, one HAS to have a weakened immune system.
That's not what it says. Not even remotely. Look, here's the relevant section, copied directly from your post:

Quote:
Most people who contract histoplasmosis just need time to recover, but those who have weakened immune systems could be at risk for serious, sometimes fatal, infections.
Note the things it doesn't say. It doesn't say anthing about one HAVING to have a weakened immune system. It doesn't say that people without a weakened immune system NEVER are at risk for serious infections. It doesn't even say that ALL people with weakened immune systems acquire a serious infection. It says that people with weakened immune systems COULD BE AT RISK for serious infections.

It's a far cry from "could be at risk" to your capitalised absolute.
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Old 10th July 2018, 11:24 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
What were you microwaving, emu eggs????
let me just say I doubt the accuracy of this statement
(I love my eggs and usually microwave them, putting them in a sealed container is always a good idea as yes they will explode, and after having to disassemble the microwave as egg had penetrated the light fitting shield and goes a bit pongy after a day or two of ozzie heat- I now have special containers that have a small vent in the top to stop the top blowing off)
Have never seen one explode hard enough to break the door latches open and cover an entire room though
This event was caused by three eggs at once. When the first one exploded it caused the other two to explode at the same time. And he likely had the microwave on high. Some latches are not as strong as others.

The main spray went completely across the room in a cannon-like blast of about thirty degrees to either side and top and bottom. The back and sides of the room escaped. It looked like yellow spray paint, and the opposite wall was covered. Although the whole room needed cleaning.

A dumb blonde I met once put a can of fish into a regular oven and put the oven on high. The fine spray and the smell were not to be forgotten for a while. Luckily, she was not in the kitchen at the time. Do not try this at home.
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Old 10th July 2018, 11:29 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
That's not what it says. Not even remotely. Look, here's the relevant section, copied directly from your post:



Note the things it doesn't say. It doesn't say anthing about one HAVING to have a weakened immune system. It doesn't say that people without a weakened immune system NEVER are at risk for serious infections. It doesn't even say that ALL people with weakened immune systems acquire a serious infection. It says that people with weakened immune systems COULD BE AT RISK for serious infections.

It's a far cry from "could be at risk" to your capitalised absolute.

I guess I am being influenced by the literature which does say that. It took a few years to find one or two studies that said there is an extremely small chance of infection in immune-competent people. That small chance is not communicated to the medical profession. Even the specialists in mycology did not know that is was possible.
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Old 10th July 2018, 11:34 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I guess I am being influenced by the literature which does say that. It took a few years to find one or two studies that said there is an extremely small chance of infection in immune-competent people. That small chance is not communicated to the medical profession. Even the specialists in mycology did not know that is was possible.
I just noticed that the source of the quote you posted was Fox News.

Nuff said.
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Old 10th July 2018, 11:37 PM   #312
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The second paragraph of the Wikipedia entry on histoplasmosis - Wikipedia - acknowledges that immunocompetent people can be infected.

Get better sources.
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Old 10th July 2018, 11:39 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Interestingly there was a question addressed on the Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast this week about whether non-ionising radiation could be harmful. Steve Novella's thoughtful and nuanced response, in a nutshell, was that we could not absolutely rule it out, but the available evidence is largely negative so it is still extremely unlikely. Basically as close to "no" as an honest scientist can say.

You do realize that in order to say that, one must go through the many studies showing harm or an undesirable effect, and discount them all. That is what ICNRIP does. Selective and biased adjudication. One discounts them as "anecdotal" and not "evidence" because of some flaw or perceived flaw in the method.

And, of course, we are talking about healthy 200 lb males in the form of a modelled lump of meat or rats. Not people who might not susceptible. The susceptible people who might suffer ill effects from the radiation cannot be differentiated because of the lack of health to start with.
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Old 10th July 2018, 11:42 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
You do realize that in order to say that, one must go through the many studies showing harm or an undesirable effect, and discount them all. That is what ICNRIP does. Selective and biased adjudication. One discounts them as "anecdotal" and not "evidence" because of some flaw or perceived flaw in the method.
They went through one particular recent study that was specifically sent to them, and found that it was not placebo controlled, had a small sample size, and was subject to a severe selection bias. The conclusion was that there was no reason to change the consensus that there is no harmful effect from non-ionising radiation based on the results of that study.
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Old 10th July 2018, 11:46 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The second paragraph of the Wikipedia entry on histoplasmosis - Wikipedia - acknowledges that immunocompetent people can be infected.

Get better sources.

I checked my file of 2011. It appears that the wiki article has been updated. The reason I found the articles a few years later about immunocompetent infections was likely that updates were starting to appear.

I stand by my statements for the year of 2011. And acknowledge that medicine has caught up.
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Old 10th July 2018, 11:50 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I read an article recently arguing that oxygen is as harmful as radiation. (The premise being that much of the biological injury from ionising radiation is due to the generation of reactive oxygen species. Breathing high levels of oxygen also generates reactive oxygen species causing 'radiation-like' tissue injury.) Now there are clearly issues with dosing etc. but as a speculative discussion it was interesting reminding one of how toxic oxygen is to life.

I take concentrated oxygen at night. Before I did, I checked the dosing and was surprised to find that it had to be limited in concentration. To get medical oxygen one needs a prescription, but not for the concentrate because it can only be produced at a low rate.
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Old 11th July 2018, 12:36 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Something caused the symptoms - and they resemble cell tower symptoms. I would say that is a logical reason.
And you would be wrong, for the reasons already explained to you ad nauseum. It is entirely illogical given our current understanding of (a) the effects of non-ionising radiation and (b) human psychology.

Quote:
Do we have to wait for the studies on a massive scale over many years to determine this kind of damage?
Yes.

Quote:
Is it okay to do experiments on the general public, like Ciprofloxacin, where one reassesses initial assumptions?
Nobody is "doing experiments on the general public". Doctors are prescribing what, based on the best scientific evidence currently available, is the most effective treatment for whatever ails them.

Quote:
Should we not be a little more proactive and slow down to assess more studies?
Not if it means denying sick people effective treatment for no good reason.

There are standards in place designed to ensure that drugs are not approved until they have been adequately tested. That does not mean that mistakes cannot be made, but being over cautious can result in people dying whilst waiting for a drug to be approved that would have saved their lives. Experts whose job it is to make such judgements agonise over them every day. What makes you think that you, a rank amateur with virtually no relevant knowledge or experience, can do better?

Quote:
How many children will die if they do not have towers next to them? With vaccination, the mothers were faced with a choice of two risks. In the tower case, the choice is risk versus no risk (err on the side of caution). Somewhere two kids died within an hour of getting inoculated. The risk is not zero, but it the latter case it was likely a defective dose.
How many children will die because their parents are unable to use their cell phones to call emergency services because a tower was not built due to a bogus health scare?

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
You do realize that in order to say that, one must go through the many studies showing harm or an undesirable effect, and discount them all.
In order to conclude that cell towers are dangerous you have to discount many large scale, properly conducted studies which show no harm and pay attention only to the handful of much smaller less rigorous studies that cannot definitively rule it out. This is what believers in homeopathy do when they bang on about the small number of poor studies which suggest a tiny positive effect and ignore the much larger number of much better conducted studies which show no effect over and above placebo.

You need to look at all the studies and weigh all the evidence fairly, which is what scientists. Cherry picking only the ones that support what they've decided to believe is what crackpots and conspiracy theorists do.
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Old 11th July 2018, 07:59 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
They went through one particular recent study that was specifically sent to them, and found that it was not placebo controlled, had a small sample size, and was subject to a severe selection bias. The conclusion was that there was no reason to change the consensus that there is no harmful effect from non-ionising radiation based on the results of that study.

Do you know which study it was?
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:54 AM   #319
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A double-blinded study? Notice that her symptoms are triggered by varying field - the change rather than the presence.


Quote:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21793784

RESULTS:

In a double-blinded EMF provocation procedure specifically designed to minimize unintentional sensory cues, the subject developed temporal pain, headache, muscle twitching, and skipped heartbeats within 100 s after initiation of EMF exposure (p < .05). The symptoms were caused primarily by field transitions (off-on, on-off) rather than the presence of the field, as assessed by comparing the frequency and severity of the effects of pulsed and continuous fields in relation to sham exposure. The subject had no conscious perception of the field as judged by her inability to report its presence more often than in the sham control.
Do I have to wait for you guys to die off?

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– A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it. – Max Planck 1858-1947
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Old 11th July 2018, 10:16 AM   #320
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An interesting article.


Quote:
https://www.thenation.com/article/ho...investigation/

Lack of definitive proof that a technology is harmful does not mean the technology is safe, yet the wireless industry has succeeded in selling this logical fallacy to the world. In truth, the safety of wireless technology has been an unsettled question since the industry’s earliest days. The upshot is that, over the past 30 years, billions of people around the world have been subjected to a massive public-health experiment: Use a cell phone today, find out later if it causes cancer or genetic damage.

Meanwhile, the wireless industry has obstructed a full and fair understanding of the current science, aided by government agencies that have prioritized commercial interests over human health and news organizations that have failed to inform the public about what the scientific community really thinks. In other words, this public-health experiment has been conducted without the informed consent of its subjects, even as the industry keeps its thumb on the scale.

“The absence of absolute proof does not mean the absence of risk,” Annie Sasco, the former director of epidemiology for cancer prevention at France’s National Institute of Health and Medical Research, told the attendees of the 2012 Childhood Cancer conference.
"Creative truth-telling". Is that the same as "Creative accounting".

Quote:
When the Interphone conclusions were released in 2010, industry spokespeople blunted their impact by deploying what experts on lying call “creative truth-telling.” “Interphone’s conclusion of no overall increased risk of brain cancer is consistent with conclusions reached in an already large body of scientific research on this subject,” John Walls, the vice president for public affairs at the CTIA, told reporters. The wiggle word here is “overall”:
Mmmm. Now how about this paragraph.

Quote:
The scientific evidence that cell phones and wireless technologies in general can cause cancer and genetic damage is not definitive, but it is abundant and has been increasing over time. Contrary to the impression that most news coverage has given the public, 90 percent of the 200 existing studies included in the National Institutes of Health’s PubMed database on the oxidative effects of wireless radiation—its tendency to cause cells to shed electrons, which can lead to cancer and other diseases—have found a significant impact, according to a survey of the scientific literature conducted by Henry Lai. Seventy-two percent of neurological studies and 64 percent of DNA studies have also found effects.
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