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Old 11th July 2018, 10:24 AM   #321
PartSkeptic
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This is the bit in this study that caused me a chuckle:

Quote:
http://nebula.wsimg.com/d1e65ba8eb58...&alloworigin=1

The power density values read by the mobile phone company are extremely low, suspiciously low, compared with measurements taken near other base stations (Ab del-Rassoul et al. 2006). Furthermore, the power density was measured only once by the mobile phone company, whereas this kind of measurement should be conducted several times. Although the power density, as measured by the mobile phone company, was too low to be considered relevant in aggravating the health problems experienced by residents, we have used these measurements as reference levels in this case study.
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Old 11th July 2018, 10:32 AM   #322
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There are studies out there. How about this one? Trouble is that I cannot get access to the papers freely.


Quote:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22138021

OBJECTIVES:
This study is concerned with assessing the role of exposure to radio frequency radiation (RFR) emitted either from mobiles or base stations and its relations with human's hormone profiles.

DESIGN AND METHODS:
All volunteers' samples were collected for hormonal analysis.
RESULTS:

This study showed significant decrease in volunteers' ACTH, cortisol, thyroid hormones, prolactin for young females, and testosterone levels.

CONCLUSION:
The present study revealed that high RFR effects on pituitary-adrenal axis.
Quote:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...330?via%3Dihub

This study is concerned with assessing the role of long-term exposure to high radio frequency radiation emitted either from mobile phones or from base stations and its relations with human's hormone profiles.
All volunteers are followed for 6 years and blood samples were collected regularly every 3 years for time intervals of 1 year, 3 years and 6 years for hormonal analysis and the blood samples were taken at 8.0 a.m.

This study showed reduction in volunteers' plasma ACTH, serum cortisol levels. Also, they showed decrease in the release of the thyroid hormones especially T3. In addition, each of their serum prolactin in young females (14–22 years), and testosterone levels significantly dropped due to long-term exposure to radio frequency radiation.

Conversely, serum prolactin levels for adult females (25–60 years) significantly rose with increasing exposure time. In conclusion, the present study revealed that high radio frequency radiation effects on pituitary–adrenal axis represented in the reduction of ACTH, cortisol, thyroid hormones, prolactin in young females, and testosterone levels.
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Old 11th July 2018, 10:46 AM   #323
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There are studies that are trying to correlate health and base stations:

Quote:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...48969711005754

Between 1996 and 2006, 7191 deaths by neoplasia occurred and within an area of 500 m from the BS, the mortality rate was 34.76 per 10,000 inhabitants.

Outside of this area, a decrease in the number of deaths by neoplasia occurred.

The greatest accumulated incidence was 5.83 per 1000 in the Central-Southern region and the lowest incidence was 2.05 per 1000 in the Barreiro region.
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Old 11th July 2018, 10:53 AM   #324
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Here is one that questions the label of hysteria and nocebo effects:


Quote:
http://www.ehs-mcs.org/fichiers/1454...biomarkers.pdf

By using the battery of biomarkers we have investigated in this study it now seems possible to objectively characterize and identify EHS and MCS
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Old 11th July 2018, 12:59 PM   #325
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Are you expecting us to analyse and critique every study you decide to cherry pick?

Once again: cherry picking only the studies which appear to support what you have decided to believe is what crackpots and conspiracy theorists do. For an honest assessment of the evidence you need to look at all of it.

Just for a change, why don't you analyse and critique some of the dozens of studies which show no harm and explain why those results should be discounted?
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:19 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
There are studies that are trying to correlate health and base stations:
that is weird, the base station is per 10.000 whereas the other numbers are per 1000 and the 5.83 should thus be 58.3, and greater than around the bs!
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Old 11th July 2018, 02:35 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Here is one that questions the label of hysteria and nocebo effects:

I don't think the study says what you think it says!

Quote:
By using the battery of biomarkers we have investigated in this study it now seems possible to objectively characterize and identify EHS and MCS. Although termed “idiopathic”, IEI has been defined as abnormal responses possibly (!) triggered by exposure to organic chemicals and/ or metals. It is believed that in addition, to MCS several pathological disorders such as fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome, because they may share a similar environment-related intolerance condition, could be part of IEI. We have shown multiple lines of evidence that EHS and MCS share a similar pathogenesis and so might be the same pathological disorder whatever their putative causal stressors. This strongly reinforces the concept that both EHS and MCS must be part of the so called IEI syndrome.

EHS: electromagnetic hypersensitivity (Wikipedia)
IEI: idiopathic environmental intolerance (Wikipedia)
MCS: multiple chemical sensitivity (Wikipedia)

Quote:
A systematic review in 2005 showed no convincing scientific evidence for symptoms being caused by electromagnetic fields. Since then, several double-blind (!!!) experiments have shown that people who report electromagnetic hypersensitivity are unable to detect the presence of electromagnetic fields and are as likely to report ill health following a sham exposure as they are following exposure to genuine electromagnetic fields, suggesting the cause in these cases to be the nocebo effect.
electromagnetic hypersensitivity
Quote:
Although the symptoms themselves are real, and can be disabling, MCS is not recognized as an organic, chemical-caused illness by the World Health Organization, American Medical Association, or any of several other professional medical organizations. Blinded (!!!) clinical trials show that people with MCS react as often and as strongly to placebos as they do to chemical stimuli; the existence and severity of symptoms is related to perception that a chemical stimulus is present.
idiopathic environmental intolerance]multiple chemical sensitivity (Wikipedia)

In other words, people's imagination and anxieties make them sick. When the study says that "the common co-occurrence of EHS and MCS strongly suggests a common pathological mechanism," i.e. that the different values that can me measured by means of blood samples are similar, it simply means that what they have in common is their fears and anxieties!
(People doing actual research wouldn't put it as bluntly as I do!)
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Old 11th July 2018, 02:41 PM   #328
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PS
This was probably posted already in this thread, but it deserves to be repeated: Cancer Stat Facts: Brain and Other Nervous System Cancer - 1992-2015
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Old 11th July 2018, 04:41 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Here is one that questions the label of hysteria and nocebo effects:

From the conclusions of your linked article:

Quote:
Whatever the causal origin of EHS and/or MCS, there is compelling evidence that EHS and/or MCS self-reporting patients constitute an unsolved, large and growing health problem worldwide.
As far as EHS is concerned, about 1%–10% of the investigated population, e.g. 5% in Switzerland (13), 5% in Ireland, 9% in Sweden, 9% in Germany and 11% in England are presently estimated to be EHS self-reporting persons (201). Given the seven billion persons worldwide using cordless and/or mobile phone it is expected these percentages may increase in the 50 next years. However, because at the time these estimations were made there was no objective criteria for identifying EHS (21), these data require confirmation by more objective investigations.

EHS is short for electrohypersensitivity. Note that this is talking about persons self-reporting EHS and that the authors are drawing no conclusions, saying that the proposed diagnostic criteria they describe had not been applied to any such persons at least at the time the article was published in 2015.

You blithely throw this over the wal,l expecting us to accept it as evidence. Why? "No claimer" excuse in 3,2,1...

ETA: ninja'd in part by dann
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:28 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Do you know which study it was?
The citation is on the podcast page, but you'll actually have to listen to the show for the discussion.

https://www.theskepticsguide.org/podcast/sgu/678
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Old 11th July 2018, 11:49 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Are you expecting us to analyse and critique every study you decide to cherry pick?

Once again: cherry picking only the studies which appear to support what you have decided to believe is what crackpots and conspiracy theorists do. For an honest assessment of the evidence you need to look at all of it.

Just for a change, why don't you analyse and critique some of the dozens of studies which show no harm and explain why those results should be discounted?

So your definition of cherry picking is just what ICNIRP does. This one shows no harm - acceptable. This study shows harm - not acceptable.

Then you say I am cherry picking because I use one study that indicates harm. How many do you need? It is not a matter of 1,000 studies show no harm so I have to present 1,001 studies showing harm in order to prove there is harm.

And the reason for rejecting the studies is very simple. ICNIRP has decided that harm can only come from either heating effects or from ionising effects. How unscientific.

People are beginning to see how biased the ICNIRP and WHO committees are. But you refuse to believe that bias can influence their "scientific" analysis of the various papers - even though they are mostly engineers reviewing medical studies.

Here is a paper that tackles the bias at these organizations:
https://www.scribd.com/document/3527...7-4046-AOP-PDF
Have a look at table 1 on page 4 regarding the commonality of members on different committees.

Also:
https://es-ireland.com/2016/12/20/ha...ked-by-icnirp/
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Old 11th July 2018, 11:50 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The citation is on the podcast page, but you'll actually have to listen to the show for the discussion.

https://www.theskepticsguide.org/podcast/sgu/678

Thanks. I eventually got it and downloaded it so I can skip to the discussion which I will do now.
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Old 12th July 2018, 12:24 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
So your definition of cherry picking is just what ICNIRP does. This one shows no harm - acceptable. This study shows harm - not acceptable.
Wrong. Trying reading my posts again, and this time don't assume you already know what I mean.
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Old 12th July 2018, 03:26 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
So your definition of cherry picking is just what ICNIRP does. This one shows no harm - acceptable. This study shows harm - not acceptable.
No, that's not how it works. You look at all the studies. And when the studies show no harm are more numerous, better designed and show more robust results than the studies that show harm, then you conclude that there is probably no harm.
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Old 15th July 2018, 12:51 AM   #335
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A disgraceful piece in today's Observer:

https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...venient-truths

Two BTL comments sum it up:

Quote:
Essentially the article's message is that scientists are split on whether phones cause cancer, but when you remove industry-funded research the balance clearly tips towards the positive. This is likened to what happened with smoking, where the industry funds research in order to keep the argument alive and prevent stronger conclusions being reached.

I'm all for getting industry funding out of this research. But it's important to present an accurate sense of what current literature tells us- and from what I can gather it doesn't resemble the picture painted by the article.

It seems that there are a ton of studies which in aggregate show a mixed picture. But most of those can't be used to draw any firm conclusions because of the nature of the experiments involved. For example, many involve subjecting lab-cultivated cells to radiation rather than cells in a human body, or rats, or much higher levels of exposure. Others involve possible confounding variables which we can't rule out.

But there are a couple of more reliable large-scake cohort studies available and these suggest that there is no link. Add that to a lack of spike in cancer rates in the general population since the spread of mobile technology, plus the lack of a plausible mechanism for how phones would actually cause cancer and the evidence is clearly pointing towards there being no link. More research is needed to be sure, however, hence the precautionary advice.

So while there's nothing outright false in the article or on the level of anti-vaxxer stuff, it is misrepresentating the science in a sensationalist manner- and one which probably is counterproductive to the goal of removing conflicts of interest in science.


Quote:
If Ben Goldacre still worked here he would probably resign in disgust that this nonsense was published.
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Old 17th July 2018, 10:50 AM   #336
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Back on Sunday. Beach holiday. Weather good - no surprise. Got a drug resistant chest infection last week. Some twists and turns there.
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Old 17th July 2018, 11:31 AM   #337
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Something from Science-Based Medicine, yesterday:

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/bad...dia-for-fools/
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Old 17th July 2018, 11:51 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Quote:
If Ben Goldacre still worked here he would probably resign in disgust that this nonsense was published.

Ben Goldacre: Essex electrosensitivity study results ...
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Old 17th July 2018, 11:59 PM   #339
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There was an interesting story about mobile phones and cancer in the latest issue of the Skeptical Inquirer.
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Old 18th July 2018, 02:55 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
There was an interesting story about mobile phones and cancer in the latest issue of the Skeptical Inquirer.
Any chance of a summary for those of us without a subscription?
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Old 18th July 2018, 03:21 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Grashtel View Post
Any chance of a summary for those of us without a subscription?
Don't have the magazine with me here at the office, but there were two separate tests of full body irradiating rats and mice and check them for brain and heart cancer (cannot remember the actual names right now).

In one of the two tests they found that only male rats developed a higher number of tumors, however, it could not be excluded that these were more than natural chance of getting tumors. The irradiation was, however, much much higher than one would actually get using a mobile phone or live near a base station, on the order of tens of watts per kg.

But I will have to look it up when I get home today before I write up nonsense.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 03:01 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
A disgraceful piece in today's Observer:

https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...venient-truths

Two BTL comments sum it up:

From this week’s:

https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...-health-hazard
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Old 23rd July 2018, 03:11 AM   #343
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Unfortunately the damage has been done. Woo slingers will be quoting the first article for years, whilst ignoring the subsequent comprehensive rebuttal.
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Old 25th July 2018, 05:27 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Unfortunately the damage has been done. Woo slingers will be quoting the first article for years, whilst ignoring the subsequent comprehensive rebuttal.

Do you base your position that cell tower emf cannot cause cancer on these two statements:

Only ionizing radiation can damage DNA which in turn cause cancer.
Non-ionizing radiation cannot damage DNA and therefore it cannot cause cancer.
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Old 25th July 2018, 05:33 AM   #345
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Do you think that ICNIRP is a sufficiently unbiased and reputable organization that the world can simply take their recommendations as solid scientific truth?
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Old 25th July 2018, 05:56 AM   #346
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I went on holiday to the coast. A few days before we left, I made the mistake of kissing my wife on the mouth instead of on the cheek as I had been doing for 3 weeks. She had a chest infection which the doctor said was bronchial pneumonia and was prescribed penicillin three weeks prior to that. She had a lingering cough.

The next day my lower right teeth were painful, then my throat and the next day I was coughing yellow sputum. After two days, it had not cleared up and because we were going on holiday I went to her doctor on Saturday and got a penicillin antibiotic.

It was like feeding the bacteria with candy. By Monday morning, my whole chest was clogged with nasty green mucus, and I felt seriously sick. My Joburg doctor faxed a prescription for a "seriously strong" antibiotic. I took the first tablet there and then at noon.

I went back to the room and lay down. I could see and feel the difference every two hours, and by the next morning, the little bit of mucus was clear. I also felt my left thumb getting more tender, also my right knee, as well as my left ankle.

Guess what I was prescribed:

A Ciprofloxacin type fluoroquinolone.


I reluctantly took the second pill the next day but did not finish the course of five pills.

The damage to those organs is now significantly worse. I almost cannot use my left thumb, and walking even to the car is hard.

And doctors say "Oh, no. It is quite safe. The tendon issue only affects young Beagle puppies."

Yeah right. Can you see that the pharmaceutical industry is hiding behind the smog of disinformation where they can say that joints deteriorate due to all sorts of injuries and old age?

Do you not see a possible correlation between cell towers and this antibiotic?

BTW: Even if I had known what the first pill was I would have still taken it. There is not much of an alternative. The other antibiotics are limited in their scope.

With rising drug-resistant bacteria and lowered immune systems from cell phones, we will gradually (in a matter of decades? or less?) kill ourselves off. Experiment concluded. The evidence would then be "obvious".
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Old 25th July 2018, 06:42 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Do you base your position that cell tower emf cannot cause cancer on these two statements:

Only ionizing radiation can damage DNA which in turn cause cancer.
Non-ionizing radiation cannot damage DNA and therefore it cannot cause cancer.
I base my position that there is no substantive evidence of a link between cell tower emf and cancer, even though such a link would be abundantly apparent by now, on the fact that there is no substantive evidence of a link between cell phone emf and cancer, even though such a link would be abundantly apparent by now.

The lack of any known mechanism by which such a link could be explained supports that position but does not justify it.
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Old 26th July 2018, 07:16 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I base my position that there is no substantive evidence of a link between cell tower emf and cancer, even though such a link would be abundantly apparent by now, on the fact that there is no substantive evidence of a link between cell phone emf and cancer, even though such a link would be abundantly apparent by now.

The lack of any known mechanism by which such a link could be explained supports that position but does not justify it.

Why do you say it would be "abundantly apparent" by now?

New technologies, new densities and has sufficient time passed? Has 5G been around for long enough for you?

If the damage is subtle and long-term, on what basis are you making this sweeping statement?

Is there some kind of "law" which governs such studies?

In medicine, there are side effects listed as common, uncommon and rare with various percentages. Do you not think that the rising complaints of sensitivities in various countries might be an indicator?

Do you dismiss any complaint of feeling "unwell" as "not independently verifiable" and therefore not scientific enough for you?

As far as a "link" is concerned, do you think that a drop in a person's immune system due to cell phone tower radiation might predispose that person to cancer? Or does one totally discount emf as a contributing factor?

For example, my late wife died of cancer. The cause of death was not given as histoplasmosis, although the clinical evidence strongly suggests that it was the primary cause.

What about VGCC effects?

Here is a paper about sound and the blood-brain barrier.
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep33264
Why do you discount studies which indicate there could be problems with microwave EMFs and the BBB? Especially since you know now that microwave EMFs can cause rapid localized brain heating and possible sonic waves in the brain with pulsed transmitters used in newer technologies?

Can you say with complete assurance that living next to a cell tower HAS NO HEALTH EFFECTS WHATSOEVER, AND NEVER WILL? And that the thousands of studies which indicate a POSSIBLE risk are all wrong? Every one?
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Old 26th July 2018, 07:20 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Can you say with complete assurance that living next to a cell tower HAS NO HEALTH EFFECTS WHATSOEVER, AND NEVER WILL? And that the thousands of studies which indicate a POSSIBLE risk are all wrong? Every one?

This make you appear illiterate. Caps don't help. Read what she wrote.
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Old 26th July 2018, 07:33 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Unfortunately the damage has been done. Woo slingers will be quoting the first article for years, whilst ignoring the subsequent comprehensive rebuttal.

Just read both articles. Both are effectively opinion pieces and who you believe sort of depends on where you stand.

Personally, I think the cancer link is tenuous and industry may only be too happy to fight that battle while ignoring the other issues.

My concern with cancer is not a direct cause and effect issue but one where a premature death due to cancer may occur.

My 44-year-old nephew has neck and bone cancer. Only old people got cancer in the sixties when I was a kid. (Totally anecdotal ).

The statistics are quite far behind when it comes to causes of death. Most natural ones are cancer and heart attack. Who is to say that the rate would not be lower with increased care?
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Old 26th July 2018, 07:36 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
This make you appear illiterate. Caps don't help. Read what she wrote.

Oh. What is the correct way to emphasize a point? Underline? Bold? Italicize? Other?

If you want to correct my grammar, you should double check yours.
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Old 26th July 2018, 08:25 AM   #352
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I wasn't correcting your grammar.
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Old 26th July 2018, 09:42 AM   #353
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It seems like I have the usual 'unusual' events once more.

The tower is up and energized and might have been the cause of a near-fatal event to our tenant who occupies an apartment over our garage.

She complained that she gets a serious electric shock after showering and turning off the water. It happens each time to her. I have started an investigation.

Is the power-up of the tower just coincidence? Or somehow "linked"?

Any ideas?
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Old 26th July 2018, 01:16 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
She complained that she gets a serious electric shock after showering and turning off the water.

Any ideas?
Remind me again, who does the maintenance on water heaters at your place?
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Old 26th July 2018, 01:49 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
She complained that she gets a serious electric shock after showering and turning off the water. It happens each time to her. I have started an investigation.
Are you portraying this accurately? How incredibly stupid do you have to be to repeatedly expose yourself to near fatal, serious, electric shocks??
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Old 26th July 2018, 09:47 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Read what she wrote.
No chance of that, I'm afraid. I've kept trying for years, but maybe it's finally time to give up casting those pearls. A cell tower causing someone to get electric shocks from their shower.
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Old 27th July 2018, 05:51 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
No chance of that, I'm afraid. I've kept trying for years, but maybe it's finally time to give up casting those pearls. A cell tower causing someone to get electric shocks from their shower.

For years we have had no problem. Cell tower gets installed. Shower gives shocks.

My first test was to put some wire down the drain and then use a meter to measure the voltage to the wall-mounted faucet. I got 52 volts AC.

Same reading to any earth in the place. So the voltage is coming up the drain.

I am going to put an oscilloscope on to check the waveform. Then use some resistors to get an idea of the source impedance.

I will go outside and put a metal rod in the drain and then check for voltage.

And yes, I have an idea as to how the cell tower installation might be causing it.
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Old 27th July 2018, 06:00 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Are you portraying this accurately? How incredibly stupid do you have to be to repeatedly expose yourself to near fatal, serious, electric shocks??

No. Some exaggeration on my part. Yes, the shocks are more than a tingle.

But all parts of the shower are connected to wet tiles and brick. She told me after the first shock, so I figured it was not fatal although quite severe.

I told her to just use one finger because any current would cause it to curl away. Now that I know it is the drain, I say get out onto a towel and then turn off the water.

52 volts AC is on the safe limit, but a wet body with current going from hand to feet would draw current if the source is capable of supplying it.

These sorts of problems would confound most electricians. We have grounded copper pipe through-out but have plastic waste pipe. I worked with a power utility and got familiar with grounding (earthing).
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Old 27th July 2018, 06:04 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by jrhowell View Post
Remind me again, who does the maintenance on water heaters at your place?
I have done my house but have never had to work on the outside apartment.

Anyhow, time after time, I have shown that I have been able to find and fix faults that most professionals have overlooked. On security systems, cars, hot-water heaters and the like. Your scoffing does not change facts.
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Old 27th July 2018, 06:50 AM   #360
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It is a solid 52 volt rms 50Hz voltage. And a 1k resistor drops the voltage down to about 40 volts. The source impedance is about 300 ohms.

The human body internal resistance hand to feet is about 500 ohms. 52volts divided by 800 ohms is about 40 milliamp. One must remember that the wet outer surface conducts current away from the heart, so it is not so severe.

Fatal heart current ranges from 100 to 200 mA. Safety devices trip at about 30mA.

So the shock is rated as severe but not fatal.

Now I have to start probing our sewer for voltage.

I have said that people tell me they have never known someone who has unusual events on a weekly, almost daily, basis. Blessed with an interesting life, I am.
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