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Tags conservatism , conservatives , donald trump , george will , Max Boot , republican party

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Old 11th July 2018, 02:18 PM   #41
Segnosaur
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[quote=ThoughtIsFree;12358310
It depends on how you define a cage. Is a yard at a home with fencing described as a cage? [/quote]
No, because a yard with fencing is not designed to prevent people from, you know, actually leaving. Nor are there generally guards watching people inside the yard.

Quote:
I see a cage as a small confined area keeping an animal or a bird held captive.
Given the fact that the children are unable to, you know, head down to the mall, go outside and play whenever they want, etc. then I'd say they're held captive.

Quote:
These children need to be kept safe and it seems to me they are doing that the best way they can. Would you rather the children run off and get hurt?
Here's an idea... why don't they either:
1) stop arresting people for what is essentially considered a petty crime and do what is typically done for minor crimes, which is not jail them

2) in cases where a person MUST be confined, keep families together as a unit.

Quote:
You want to say the children are being abused...
Actually the head of the American Academy of Pediatrics (you know, actual doctors who know something about children) has said:
"Children separated from their parents at the border are experiencing something so traumatic... that it affects their brain chemistry in a way that amounts to child abuse."

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/...b0783ae12bfe6d
Quote:
Could you call it a cell and not cage?
Ummm... do you really think "cell" is a better term? The use of 'cell' is generally associated with prison... yet these kids are not themselves charged with a crime.

Quote:
Quote:
Yes it is, and furthermore it's part of a much broader and well documented pattern of behaviour over decades which clearly demonstrates that he is.
Please give me examples of the behavior you're speaking about.
Lets see:

- Getting charged (multiple times!) for racial discrimination practices when renting out apartments
- Making a statement about how black people are 'lazy', and he didn't want them counting his money.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...areer-and-life

Quote:
I don't agree, saying the protesters had some fine people in their group is not being racist.
If the group of protesters is composed of nothing but neo-nazis, KKK members, and the like, then calling any of them "fine people" is racist.
Quote:
Also can't a racist be a fine person and have a flaw by being racist? All people have flaws. Does a fine person not have flaws?
There is a difference between a flaw (like farting in the bed) and being a neo-Nazi. Being a neo-Nazi is something that definitely crosses the line from merely "flaw" to being something to be condemned.

It should also be pointed out that those who participated in the neo-Nazi rally can't claim "I didn't know any better". This isn't some casual racist attitude that someone's 90 year old grandmother might have because of the era she grew up in... these are people who actively perpetrate hate, to the point where they actually go out in public waving Nazi flags.


Quote:
Re: Push for Gun control laws...

That doesn't mean you have to quit fighting for what you believe in.
Ummm... who said they quit? In fact, I posted an article about a gun control rally that just occurred this past week.

Quote:
Trump has had some strikes on ISIS that killed numerous Isis leaders.
And so did Obama.
Quote:
Re: Economic success of Trump...
You'll need to show me facts and statistics for what you're claiming. I could post a chart for statistics showing job growth during Trumps Presidency but I'll wait for you to show me what you've got from the Obama years.
Lets see:

Jobs added in 2017 (In which Trump was president for most of the year): 2.188 million

Jobs added in 2016 (The last full year Obama was president): 2.24 million

Jobs added in 2015 (Obama was president at that time too): 2.7 million

Looks like Trump hasn't been as great a job creator as you think.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjo.../#10c2af6125ab

Or how about the stock market? In the first year that Trump was in office, the Dow went up 26%. Sounds good. But in the first year that Obama was president, the stock market went up 33%.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-stock-market/

As a side note (and in an attempt to get this thread back on track)... we really must thank you. The opening post of this thread referred to a former republican who had become disillusioned with the GOP. Now, here you are, defending Trump, but you do so by saying a "cage isn't a cage", and relying on all sorts of incorrect data. You are a perfect embodiment of the current GOP mind set, and if the current mind set is "a cage isn't a cage", then its evidence that the republican party has gone too far off the deep end to be redeemed.
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Old 11th July 2018, 02:23 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Please explain why that would be. Do you mean this thread or the entire forum?
Nevermind, I shouldn't have prejudged. I'll wait and see.
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Old 11th July 2018, 02:54 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Nevermind, I shouldn't have prejudged. I'll wait and see.
I can't forget what you said, I need to think about it, it tells me a lot about this forum and maybe I don't want to be here.

I know I'm replying way to fast and need to think through my replies but I'm taking on many of you and it's difficult being new. I don't know you and haven't followed what all you've shared on the forum.

Let me do some research, think about all said to me and I'll reply tomorrow.
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Old 11th July 2018, 02:57 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I can't forget what you said, I need to think about it, it tells me a lot about this forum and maybe I don't want to be here.

I know I'm replying way to fast and need to think through my replies but I'm taking on many of you and it's difficult being new. I don't know you and haven't followed what all you've shared on the forum.

Let me do some research, think about all said to me and I'll reply tomorrow.
Do you believe Obama was born in the U.S.?
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Old 11th July 2018, 04:08 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I take what Trump said as wanting people that want to become citizens of the United States having something positive to offer. Other countries expect that too from people who want to become citizens of their country.
Abject BS. No, he asked why we're letting people in from ****hole countries. I take it that you also automatically assume that people from ****hole countries have nothing positive to offer? I think I see the problem.
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Old 11th July 2018, 04:16 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Beck is like Rush and Dershowitz. They are whores and devoid of any real principles.
Nonsense. Dershowitz defends the guilty as a matter of principle. His oldest client is Israel.
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Old 11th July 2018, 04:21 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Unfortunately the loony wing is the mainstream at this point. Most conservatives support the loons as can be seen by voting results. Until that changes, decent rational conservatives are rightly considered the fringe of the party as mentioned in the OP.
A good example of the above would be the California 11th congressional district where the voters chose John Fitzgerald as their GOP candidate. He is a holocaust denier and recently there have been robocalls for his campaign saying that Jews are taking over the world and must be stopped.
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Old 11th July 2018, 04:52 PM   #48
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That doofus Trump running about on the world stage, smashing up alliances and cozying up to dictators and instituting ruinous trade wars, while the lawmakers in his Party sit idly by and watch their country become a pariah is just one good reason for any half-aware conservative to NOT vote GOP.

In certain respects the US has effectively become a dictatorship. Your one-man wrecking crew is holding over 300 million hostage to his ignorance and petulance. Aided and abetted by goddamned cowards who value their 'jobs' (as if they're doing them!) over their country.
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Old 11th July 2018, 04:57 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I take what Trump said as wanting people that want to become citizens of the United States having something positive to offer. Other countries expect that too from people who want to become citizens of their country.

If other countries do it then they are wrong too. America is supposed to be a place the downtrodden can go to. Immigration policies that rank people are by definition exclusionary and therefore the opposite of allowing in the downtrodden. That makes it more like some sort of country club where people who all think and look alike can delude themselves into thinking they are superior.



I believe in a fully open border Schengen type system where all inhabitants of North America can migrate at will. But what I want is a pipe dream. Do you think I'm evil, naive or something else?
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Old 11th July 2018, 08:53 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
This might not be the right place for you.
Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Please explain why that would be. Do you mean this thread or the entire forum?
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Nevermind, I shouldn't have prejudged. I'll wait and see.
Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I can't forget what you said, I need to think about it, it tells me a lot about this forum and maybe I don't want to be here.

I know I'm replying way to fast and need to think through my replies but I'm taking on many of you and it's difficult being new. I don't know you and haven't followed what all you've shared on the forum.

Let me do some research, think about all said to me and I'll reply tomorrow.
Fud, you scared him (or her) off!

We didn't even get TIF to the secret ISF initiation ritual with the the surprisingly sexy but doomed goat. That's the best part!
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Old 11th July 2018, 10:44 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Do you believe Obama was born in the U.S.?
Do you believe that everything bad that happened in the Obama administration's 8 years was "Bush's fault"?

Or maybe a better question might be if you think nothing bad ever happened when Obama was president?

Trump has his faults and sometimes I think he should be banned from Twitter, but he's done some good, especially with the economy and the jury is out on the "trade war" and NATO.

FYI, I'm from Hawaii and when our (at the time) republican governor confirmed that Obama's birth certificate was legit, that was good enough for me.

Last edited by Joecool; 11th July 2018 at 10:56 PM.
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Old 12th July 2018, 12:07 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
It depends on how you define a cage. Is a yard at a home with fencing described as a cage? I see a cage as a small confined area keeping an animal or a bird held captive. These children need to be kept safe and it seems to me they are doing that the best way they can. Would you rather the children run off and get hurt? Is a play ground at a school considered a cage, the play grounds are fenced in so the children are kept safe. You want to say the children are being abused so you think of the place they're being kept as a cage like a dog would be kept in a pound. It's a secured area so the children are safe. Could you call it a cell and not cage? Could you call the space a secured area? No you want it to sound abusive so you call it a cage.
If the children are being held against their will and are unable to leave the enclosure that is surrounded by caged material then it's a cage.

Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I'll give the same reply as above. I call it a secured safe area and not a cage.
Then you'd be wrong

Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Please give me examples of the behavior you're speaking about.
They are well documented in other threads.


Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I don't agree, saying the protesters had some fine people in their group is not being racist.
Also can't a racist be a fine person and have a flaw by being racist? All people have flaws. Does a fine person not have flaws?
For me being a white supremacist is a deal-breaker. No matter what other virtues they may have, they're not a fine person.

Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Yes we have racists in all races, plenty to go around.
Except you just provided a hypothetical.

Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Still don't agree that would make Trump a racist. By saying fine people does not say you feel being a racist is something you condone. Can't a racist have good traits?
They may, but being a racist means that they cannot be a "fine person" IMO.
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Old 12th July 2018, 08:08 AM   #53
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Do you believe that everything bad that happened in the Obama administration's 8 years was "Bush's fault"?

Or maybe a better question might be if you think nothing bad ever happened when Obama was president?
I wasn't the poster that was asked, but I'll take a crack at it...

No, not everything that was bad during Obama's tenure was "bush's fault". And not everything good that happened was due to Obama.

I cannot blame Obama for the recession and huge deficit, since those were related to economic problems that had its origins from before he was elected. But he did make mistakes. For example, the 'fast and furious' gun scandal should have been handled better. And Obama himself has said that his biggest mistake was not handling the aftermath of the Libyan war properly.
Quote:
Trump has his faults and sometimes I think he should be banned from Twitter, but he's done some good, especially with the economy...
Uhhh.... no he hasn't.

As has been pointed out, the economy was already growing solidly by the time Trump got into power. It takes time to enact policies and have them become effective, so you can't really say Trump has done some good with the economy because most of what's happened has been a byproduct of the previous administration's policies.

What happens in 2018 and later is more of an indication of what Trump has done for the economy. And so far, we do have some new jobs added, but at the cost of a skyrocketing deficit and a stock market which is foundering. So at best, mixed results.
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Old 12th July 2018, 08:10 AM   #54
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Before I joined this forum I was told it was mostly liberal but that didn't stop me from joining. I have not had the time to read through the threads here in the Political forum. Having discussion and debate can end up very time consuming and something I didn't consider is when it's mostly liberal the conservative is going to have a lot of talking to do. The regrettable thing is nobody is going to change their minds. A lot of back and forth and you end up exhausted and especially if you're all alone in trying to get your opinion across to many who don't agree.

Telling me this may not be the forum for me may be correct. I'm brand new with only a few posts and can't post sources. Found a lot of good information to support my claims but it will be impossible to share without posting the source.

Seems to me if you disapprove of the illegals coming across our borders being detained, just say so and quit using the word cage to try and make your point. I assume you use the word cage because you're wanting it to sound like the people are being treated like lowly animals. If these children were in rooms with walls you would be emphasizing that as something horrible too. I stand by my opinion the pictures I've seen of children being detained at the border do not look like they are in cages but in large rooms with fencing for the walls. I'm sure it all has to do with the number of staff they have to watch these people and the number of facilities they have available to house them or I should say detain them The average time the children stay in the fenced in areas is three days, depends on the circumstances. Hopefully our immigration bills will get passed and we can start solving all of our problems to do with immigration

The Southern Rally and Trump saying some are fine people. From what I could find from reading different sources, not all of the people protesting were members of the extremists groups that were protesting at the rally. You had people protesting against the extremists groups. Trump denounced hated and bigotry. If you don't care for Trump of course you're going to hear what he said as an endorsement for racism. Trump explained not all of the people at the rally were bigoted and full of hate, that some were fine people. I don't see interpret that statement as showing Trump is a racist.

It was said I've used all kinds of incorrect date, what data?

Yes I think Obama is a citizen of the US and was born in Hawaii.

As of now Trump is doing a good job with our economy. I haven't compared this to any other Presidents but if you want to compare job growth between Trump and Obama, Obama did a good job with creating jobs but job wages suffered. Thing is right now our economy is good. I'm waiting to see how the tariffs turn out and I am expecting some ups and downs over the coming months. Hopefully the tariffs will turn out a good thing.

I'm a woman and I was not a supporter of Donald Trump but he got elected and I am going to support him because his success is our countries success.
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Old 12th July 2018, 08:38 AM   #55
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Quote:
This might not be the right place for you.
Please explain why that would be. Do you mean this thread or the entire forum?
Quote:
I can't forget what you said, I need to think about it, it tells me a lot about this forum and maybe I don't want to be here.
Keep in mind that this forum is dedicated to skeptical thought, which means people generally like to follow evidence and logic. Unresearched opinions, or opinions based on bad evidence are generally not given much respect.

I suspect a majority of posters here foster left-of-center political views, but there are some that are right of center. I myself am Canadian (so obviously I couldn't vote in U.S. elections) but I voted for our federal Conservative (right of center) political party in the last few elections. Were I American back in the 80s I might have voted for Bush Sr.

However, being "conservative" shouldn't automatically mean someone is a Trump supporter, and if I were in the U.S. I would probably would have voted for Hillary in the last election and Obama in the previous ones. The reason? While the far-right likes to portray them as some sort of radical socialist/communists, they seem to have a fairly pragmatic approach to business and the economy. And, as this thread has suggested, a number of conservatives have migrated from the republican party not because their own views have changed, but because they feel the republican party has basically gone off the deep end. They didn't leave the Republican party, the republican party left them.

Your first posting here made several things that many people might consider blunders... you seem to be unaware of some basic facts, and some of your claims seem to be taken right out of a Trump Tweet/Fox news broadcast. (Given how toxic Trump is, I doubt anyone could really defend him using actual real facts anyways.) Hopefully you'll stick around (we can always use some variety of opinions here), learn the difference between being a principled conservative and being a Trump supporter, and how to defend your opinions using solid logic and evidence.
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Old 12th July 2018, 08:46 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Having discussion and debate can end up very time consuming and something I didn't consider is when it's mostly liberal the conservative is going to have a lot of talking to do.
Your first post in this thread made five points - five different subjects.

If I can make a suggestion, prioritize and only respond to comments on the high priority subjects. As threads move on, you can always go back and revisit the other subjects, but this way you are not stuck feeling like you need to reply to every comment on every subject.

I am liberal, but I am happy to discuss things politely and civilly with most conservatives. Although the board is mostly liberal, the conservatives here certainly make their presence known and defended.
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Old 12th July 2018, 09:11 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Before I joined this forum I was told it was mostly liberal but that didn't stop me from joining. I have not had the time to read through the threads here in the Political forum. Having discussion and debate can end up very time consuming and something I didn't consider is when it's mostly liberal the conservative is going to have a lot of talking to do. The regrettable thing is nobody is going to change their minds. A lot of back and forth and you end up exhausted and especially if you're all alone in trying to get your opinion across to many who don't agree.

Telling me this may not be the forum for me may be correct. I'm brand new with only a few posts and can't post sources. Found a lot of good information to support my claims but it will be impossible to share without posting the source.

Seems to me if you disapprove of the illegals coming across our borders being detained, just say so and quit using the word cage to try and make your point. I assume you use the word cage because you're wanting it to sound like the people are being treated like lowly animals. If these children were in rooms with walls you would be emphasizing that as something horrible too. I stand by my opinion the pictures I've seen of children being detained at the border do not look like they are in cages but in large rooms with fencing for the walls. I'm sure it all has to do with the number of staff they have to watch these people and the number of facilities they have available to house them or I should say detain them The average time the children stay in the fenced in areas is three days, depends on the circumstances. Hopefully our immigration bills will get passed and we can start solving all of our problems to do with immigration

The Southern Rally and Trump saying some are fine people. From what I could find from reading different sources, not all of the people protesting were members of the extremists groups that were protesting at the rally. You had people protesting against the extremists groups. Trump denounced hated and bigotry. If you don't care for Trump of course you're going to hear what he said as an endorsement for racism. Trump explained not all of the people at the rally were bigoted and full of hate, that some were fine people. I don't see interpret that statement as showing Trump is a racist.

It was said I've used all kinds of incorrect date, what data?

Yes I think Obama is a citizen of the US and was born in Hawaii.

As of now Trump is doing a good job with our economy. I haven't compared this to any other Presidents but if you want to compare job growth between Trump and Obama, Obama did a good job with creating jobs but job wages suffered. Thing is right now our economy is good. I'm waiting to see how the tariffs turn out and I am expecting some ups and downs over the coming months. Hopefully the tariffs will turn out a good thing.

I'm a woman and I was not a supporter of Donald Trump but he got elected and I am going to support him because his success is our countries success.
Stick around, you'll learn a lot.
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Old 12th July 2018, 09:22 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Keep in mind that this forum is dedicated to skeptical thought, which means people generally like to follow evidence and logic. Unresearched opinions, or opinions based on bad evidence are generally not given much respect.

I suspect a majority of posters here foster left-of-center political views, but there are some that are right of center. I myself am Canadian (so obviously I couldn't vote in U.S. elections) but I voted for our federal Conservative (right of center) political party in the last few elections. Were I American back in the 80s I might have voted for Bush Sr.

However, being "conservative" shouldn't automatically mean someone is a Trump supporter, and if I were in the U.S. I would probably would have voted for Hillary in the last election and Obama in the previous ones. The reason? While the far-right likes to portray them as some sort of radical socialist/communists, they seem to have a fairly pragmatic approach to business and the economy. And, as this thread has suggested, a number of conservatives have migrated from the republican party not because their own views have changed, but because they feel the republican party has basically gone off the deep end. They didn't leave the Republican party, the republican party left them.

Your first posting here made several things that many people might consider blunders... you seem to be unaware of some basic facts, and some of your claims seem to be taken right out of a Trump Tweet/Fox news broadcast. (Given how toxic Trump is, I doubt anyone could really defend him using actual real facts anyways.) Hopefully you'll stick around (we can always use some variety of opinions here), learn the difference between being a principled conservative and being a Trump supporter, and how to defend your opinions using solid logic and evidence.
You say the members of International Skeptics like to follow evidence and logic. So do I. I research and explore many different sources to try and understand the issue I'm giving an opinion on.

When giving evidence on why I have a certain opinion I would need to post my sources, I'm unable to do that at this time because of a required number of 50 posts.

I will admit I was overwhelmed at the response I received yesterday and posted replies way to quickly. Could have done a much better job. Many times a new member is ignored on forums like this and I appreciate that you read what I had to say and gave me a chance to have a discussion.

I'm sticking around and hopefully I can do a better job. Thanks for the advise.
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Old 12th July 2018, 09:24 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Your first post in this thread made five points - five different subjects.

If I can make a suggestion, prioritize and only respond to comments on the high priority subjects. As threads move on, you can always go back and revisit the other subjects, but this way you are not stuck feeling like you need to reply to every comment on every subject.

I am liberal, but I am happy to discuss things politely and civilly with most conservatives. Although the board is mostly liberal, the conservatives here certainly make their presence known and defended.
Yes I realized my mistake after I logged off of the forum and gave this all more thought.

Thanks for this reply.
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Old 12th July 2018, 09:30 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
You say the members of International Skeptics like to follow evidence and logic. So do I. I research and explore many different sources to try and understand the issue I'm giving an opinion on.

When giving evidence on why I have a certain opinion I would need to post my sources, I'm unable to do that at this time because of a required number of 50 posts.

I will admit I was overwhelmed at the response I received yesterday and posted replies way to quickly. Could have done a much better job. Many times a new member is ignored on forums like this and I appreciate that you read what I had to say and gave me a chance to have a discussion.

I'm sticking around and hopefully I can do a better job. Thanks for the advise.
Links can be put in your post if they are broken up. Other posters will be happy to fix them when they quote you. That’s how we roll around here.
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Old 12th July 2018, 09:41 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree
Trump stating some of the white nationalists are fine people is not showing he is a racist.
Trump, over the course of decades demonstrating racist behavior, shows he’s a racist.

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Old 12th July 2018, 09:47 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
You say the members of International Skeptics like to follow evidence and logic. So do I. I research and explore many different sources to try and understand the issue I'm giving an opinion on.

When giving evidence on why I have a certain opinion I would need to post my sources, I'm unable to do that at this time because of a required number of 50 posts.

I will admit I was overwhelmed at the response I received yesterday and posted replies way to quickly. Could have done a much better job. Many times a new member is ignored on forums like this and I appreciate that you read what I had to say and gave me a chance to have a discussion.

I'm sticking around and hopefully I can do a better job. Thanks for the advise.
You don't actually have to link to cite sources. A short description of where to find it with keywords is usually enough for people who are interested in a claim. Of course a direct link is better, and good edict when you can do so.

An example; say I wanted to support my contention that the stats of the Wallace A479 sword is not the best example to use of a typical fighting 16th century hand and a half sword because it was assembled from disparate components and perhaps and earlier blade. Without having the ability to link, I could always do something like in-line cite something sure to bring it up on most Google searchers. In this case I could say something like, "This is supported and explained by Toby of the Wallace collection (youtube Wallace Collection Longsword A479 tod). A quick copy-paste later would bring one to the exact video I wanted to link to.

You'll get a lot of strong reactions here, especially when making claims that don't line up with what others have observed, but it isn't actually that difficult to cut through the noise, because it still has a fundamental basis in at least wanting to seem like critical thinking. The noise to signal ratio, even in the politics section, still compares favorably to most other places. It is also definitely not an echo chamber, but it certain can seem like that when the evidence is stacked against your argument (whether you know it is or not).
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Old 12th July 2018, 10:06 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Before I joined this forum I was told it was mostly liberal but that didn't stop me from joining.
It's very liberal and it's expected that if you make a claim (e.g., Obama vs Trump job creation) you should be prepared to back it up with a reputable source.

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I have not had the time to read through the threads here in the Political forum.
Pretty much every aspect of this presidency has been commented on. You should definitely read through other threads.

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Having discussion and debate can end up very time consuming and something I didn't consider is when it's mostly liberal the conservative is going to have a lot of talking to do. The regrettable thing is nobody is going to change their minds. A lot of back and forth and you end up exhausted and especially if you're all alone in trying to get your opinion across to many who don't agree.
Even if some minds are closed, information is exchanged. And people do change their minds.

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Telling me this may not be the forum for me may be correct. I'm brand new with only a few posts and can't post sources. Found a lot of good information to support my claims but it will be impossible to share without posting the source.
You can put spaces in the links.

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Seems to me if you disapprove of the illegals coming across our borders being detained, just say so and quit using the word cage to try and make your point.
Children were being held in cages without their parents.

This happened under Obama, and here's a wonderful breakdown of the differences between the two administrations: https://www.vox.com/2018/6/21/174884...aration-border


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I assume you use the word cage because you're wanting it to sound like the people are being treated like lowly animals.
No, those are actual cages.

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If these children were in rooms with walls you would be emphasizing that as something horrible too.
Yes, because they were forcibly separated from their parents to deter others from coming here. That is state-sanctioned child abuse.

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I stand by my opinion the pictures I've seen of children being detained at the border do not look like they are in cages but in large rooms with fencing for the walls.
A cage, in other words.

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I'm sure it all has to do with the number of staff they have to watch these people and the number of facilities they have available to house them or I should say detain them The average time the children stay in the fenced in areas is three days, depends on the circumstances.
Source for this claim? The government is still trying to reunite separated families, weeks later. Can you imagine what that would be like for a little kid? And these kids then have to go to court:

"Immigration Judge John W. Richardson, who presided over the boy’s case, told the lawyer representing Johan that he was “embarrassed” to ask if the boy could understand the court proceedings.

“I’m embarrassed to ask it, because I don’t know who you would explain it to, unless you think that a 1-year-old could learn immigration law,” Richardson said."

http://thehill.com/latino/396005-chi...parents-report

It's like something out of Kafka.

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Hopefully our immigration bills will get passed and we can start solving all of our problems to do with immigration
"our"? You mean the GOP? You guys control Congress, what are you waiting for?

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The Southern Rally and Trump saying some are fine people. From what I could find from reading different sources, not all of the people protesting were members of the extremists groups that were protesting at the rally. You had people protesting against the extremists groups. Trump denounced hated and bigotry. If you don't care for Trump of course you're going to hear what he said as an endorsement for racism. Trump explained not all of the people at the rally were bigoted and full of hate, that some were fine people. I don't see interpret that statement as showing Trump is a racist.
There are two issues at play:
A) can a racist be a "good person"? It depends. We all have latent prejudices. My parents are stereotypical old white bigots. They're good people. They also don't fall in with people carrying tiki torches chanting "Jews will not replace us", as is what happened at Charlottesville. And one of those "fine people" murdered a woman with his car. People seem to forget about that. So, were the racists at Charlottesville "fine people"? No.

B). This is an easy one. Elected officials should NEVER condone racism. If a person condones racism, as Trump did, it is valid to assume that person is racist. And in Trump's case, there is a lot of racist behavior going on over the years.


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It was said I've used all kinds of incorrect date, what data?

Yes I think Obama is a citizen of the US and was born in Hawaii.
Excellent. So what do you think of Trump's effort to spread a lie that Obama wasn't born here? That's pretty sleazy, isn't it? Pretty dishonest? And 51% of Republicans STILL believe he was born in Kenya (as of Dec. 2017). What do you think about that?

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As of now Trump is doing a good job with our economy. I haven't compared this to any other Presidents but if you want to compare job growth between Trump and Obama, Obama did a good job with creating jobs but job wages suffered. Thing is right now our economy is good. I'm waiting to see how the tariffs turn out and I am expecting some ups and downs over the coming months. Hopefully the tariffs will turn out a good thing.
Remember when all those jobs were being created under Obama? What did Republicans always talk about? The labor participation rate. It's the percentage of people who can work who are actually working. Let's see how it's been doing under Trump. It was 62.9% in Jan of 2017. It's currently 62.9%. Why do you think there's been zero growth?

Let's look at the deficit under Trump and his GOP controlled Congress:
2017: $666 billion
2018: $530 billion, so far, on track for about $800 billion.

So, if you throw a trillion dollars at the economy and slash environmental regulations, you're going to get some GDP growth. Not the 3% that Trump promised though: the last two quarters have been below 3%: https://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/nat...gdp_glance.htm


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I'm a woman and I was not a supporter of Donald Trump but he got elected and I am going to support him because his success is our countries success.
I had a foolish hope that Trump would grow into the job. It was foolish because I knew he was a narcissist. This is the Mayo Clinic's definition of Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

"Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of extreme confidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism.

A narcissistic personality disorder causes problems in many areas of life, such as relationships, work, school or financial affairs. People with narcissistic personality disorder may be generally unhappy and disappointed when they're not given the special favors or admiration they believe they deserve. They may find their relationships unfulfilling, and others may not enjoy being around them.
"

Remind you of anyone?
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Old 12th July 2018, 10:18 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Fud, you scared him (or her) off!

We didn't even get TIF to the secret ISF initiation ritual with the the surprisingly sexy but doomed goat. That's the best part!
You're lucky. I got the Stonecutter treatment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXtQMz1RGNw
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Old 12th July 2018, 10:26 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Remind you of anyone?
Reminds me of many politicians. Although I will concede that most politicians are more eloquent than the current POTUS.

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Old 12th July 2018, 10:34 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Reminds me of many politicians. Although I will concede that most politicians are more eloquent than the current POTUS.

You think Mayo's NPD description matches Obama? Troubled relationships? Financial problems? Lack of empathy? Vulnerable to the slightest criticism? Deep need for excessive admiration? I'm not seeing that. I don't see it with Bush Jr, Clinton, Bush Sr, or Reagan, either. Nixon was before my time.
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Old 12th July 2018, 11:37 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Links can be put in your post if they are broken up. Other posters will be happy to fix them when they quote you. That’s how we roll around here.
Thanks, I'll do this.
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Old 12th July 2018, 11:42 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
You don't actually have to link to cite sources. A short description of where to find it with keywords is usually enough for people who are interested in a claim. Of course a direct link is better, and good edict when you can do so.

An example; say I wanted to support my contention that the stats of the Wallace A479 sword is not the best example to use of a typical fighting 16th century hand and a half sword because it was assembled from disparate components and perhaps and earlier blade. Without having the ability to link, I could always do something like in-line cite something sure to bring it up on most Google searchers. In this case I could say something like, "This is supported and explained by Toby of the Wallace collection (youtube Wallace Collection Longsword A479 tod). A quick copy-paste later would bring one to the

You'll get a lot of strong reactions here, especially when making claims that don't line up with what others have observed, but it isn't actually that difficult to cut through the noise, because it still has a fundamental basis in at least wanting to seem like critical thinking. The noise to signal ratio, even in the politics section, still compares favorably to most other places. It is also definitely not an echo chamber, but it certain can seem like that when the evidence is stacked against your argument (whether you know it is or not).
Thanks for all the useful information and I look forward to participating. I had forgotten how time consuming this is.
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Old 12th July 2018, 11:42 AM   #69
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NVM, I might be wrong about how links work here.
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Old 12th July 2018, 11:47 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Thanks for all the useful information and I look forward to participating. I had forgotten how time consuming this is.
It really is! The main reason I don't post often any longer, although I do lurk a bit.

You will get some flack from some people if you are too busy to build perfect posts and whatnot, but simply saying you don't have the time to thoroughly investigate a detail is often seen by many here as fair.

But keep in mind; even if you weren't going to present an argument you believe here it is also time consuming to support your own views using critical thinking and valid evidence. Trying to justify it to others is a mechanism that can force you to justify, rationally, the belief for yourself.

Which is the main reason I still post here.
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Old 12th July 2018, 12:31 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
It's very liberal and it's expected that if you make a claim (e.g., Obama vs Trump job creation) you should be prepared to back it up with a reputable source.
Quote:
Even if some minds are closed, information is exchanged. And people do change their minds
I don't remember anyone ever changing their minds on the forums I've posted on. I look forward to that experience.



Quote:
You can put spaces in the links.
I'll do that, I'm still researching immigration, a lot to take in and who knows what sources are accurate. I'm reading government websites right now but not getting all the information I'm after. I know journalist who are liberal tend to twist their information to satisfy their leftist views and same with conservatives. Shoot you can't get honest answers from any of our Politicians, can you? I've been going with what I think is the true but I could be wrong and I want to know the facts.



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This happened under Obama, and here's a wonderful breakdown of the differences between the two administrations:



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No, those are actual cages.
I'm not changing my opinion on the places I've seen where children are detained, I don't view it as cages. I see the detention area as the safest way to keep the kids at bay and give them security. I don't think a play pen or crib is a cage either.
I feel bad for the children and the parents, it's a horrible situation to find yourself in.

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Yes, because they were forcibly separated from their parents to deter others from coming here. That is state-sanctioned child abuse.
I don't know if children being separated from their parents was solely done as a deterrent. I'm considering they decided to separate the children from adults, parents etc and decided it may serve as a deterrent as an after thought. In the beginning they were saying the children were separated because the adult or parent was under arrest and being detained in a separate area. Like if you were arrested and had your child with you, the child would not go to jail with you. I can't find what I think are actual facts about all taking place. If i knew the actually facts I may not agree with all taking place but can't find enough information that I feel is the truth in order to form an opinion. I do want a secure border and to stop illegal immigration. I'm in favor of keeping the Dreamers and not making them leave.
I'm trying to find out why all of these people come to America illegally, who is sending them here and what do they really know about what will happen to them once they're here?



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A cage, in other words.
Nope not a cage, a large room with see through walls.



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Source for this claim? The government is still trying to reunite separated families, weeks later. Can you imagine what that would be like for a little kid? And these kids then have to go to court:

"Immigration Judge John W. Richardson, who presided over the boy’s case, told the lawyer representing Johan that he was “embarrassed” to ask if the boy could understand the court proceedings.

“I’m embarrassed to ask it, because I don’t know who you would explain it to, unless you think that a 1-year-old could learn immigration law,” Richardson said."



It's like something out of Kafka.
I realize the immigration issues are something that is causing a lot of stress and emotional hardship for many. In our Country kids are separated from their parents everyday, a very sad situation. A lot of these kids coming into America illegally were in bad environments before coming here. I'm sure many of the children are traumatized and will suffer from all their emotional abuse for years to come, hopefully not the younger ones but who knows.



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"our"? You mean the GOP? You guys control Congress, what are you waiting for?
Heck if I know they don't agree on everything in the bill, nothing new.



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There are two issues at play:
A) can a racist be a "good person"? It depends. We all have latent prejudices. My parents are stereotypical old white bigots. They're good people. They also don't fall in with people carrying tiki torches chanting "Jews will not replace us", as is what happened at Charlottesville[/url]. And one of those "fine people" murdered a woman with his car. People seem to forget about that. So, were the racists at Charlottesville "fine people"? No.

B). This is an easy one. Elected officials should NEVER condone racism. If a person condones racism, as Trump did, it is valid to assume that person is racist. And in Trump's case, there is a lot of racist behavior going on over the years.
I agree Trump said the wrong thing by saying some were fine people. He made a mistake, I hope, I'm not seeing him as racist but I do know he's not a Politician and this is new to him. I expected many mistakes from Trump.




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Excellent. So what do you think of Trump's effort to spread a lie that Obama wasn't born here? That's pretty sleazy, isn't it? Pretty dishonest? And 51% of Republicans STILL believe he was born in Kenya . What do you think about that?
Seems to me Trump really thought Obama was not a citizen.



Quote:
Remember when all those jobs were being created under Obama? What did Republicans always talk about? The labor participation rate. It's the percentage of people who can work who are actually working. Let's see how it's been doing under Trump. It was 62.9% in Jan of 2017. It's currently 62.9%[/url]. Why do you think there's been zero growth?

Let's look at the deficit under Trump and his GOP controlled Congress:
2017: $666 billion
2018: $530 billion, so far, on track for about $800 billion.

So, if you throw a trillion dollars at the economy and slash environmental regulations, you're going to get some GDP growth. Not the 3% that Trump promised though: the last two quarters have been below 3%:
I'm not the smartest person when understanding all involved with economics.
I do know the US is doing well right now with job growth, unemployment etc. Have no idea how long it's going to last.

I do know with the Harley Davidson Plant they are having problems and closed a big plant in Ks or maybe it was Mo. The Harley is not selling like it once was. Didn't especially like hearing Trump make a threat to Harley Davidson if they took their manufacturing out of the Country but that's Trump. He does a lot of things I don't care for.



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I had a foolish hope that Trump would grow into the job. It was foolish because I knew he was a narcissist. This is the Mayo Clinic's definition of Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

"Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of extreme confidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism.

A narcissistic personality disorder causes problems in many areas of life, such as relationships, work, school or financial affairs. People with narcissistic personality disorder may be generally unhappy and disappointed when they're not given the special favors or admiration they believe they deserve. They may find their relationships unfulfilling, and others may not enjoy being around them.
"

Remind you of anyone?
I too am still waiting for him to grow into the job. Yes that description fits but I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist. He's got some issues but hopefully his Presidency will turn out well for us. This tariff thingy has me on edge, what a risk he's taking.

I haven't a clue how the Trump Presidency is going to end, hopefully good but I think anything is possible.

Last edited by ThoughtIsFree; 12th July 2018 at 12:49 PM. Reason: added quotes I forgot and fixed a typo
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Old 12th July 2018, 12:45 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It really is! The main reason I don't post often any longer, although I do lurk a bit.

You will get some flack from some people if you are too busy to build perfect posts and whatnot, but simply saying you don't have the time to thoroughly investigate a detail is often seen by many here as fair.

But keep in mind; even if you weren't going to present an argument you believe here it is also time consuming to support your own views using critical thinking and valid evidence. Trying to justify it to others is a mechanism that can force you to justify, rationally, the belief for yourself.

Which is the main reason I still post here.
I agree, debating or discussing issues on chat forums is a great way to learn, I have done much more research and understand issues so much better than I did before I started sharing about Politics on a chat forum. It takes time but I find it's worth it.
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Old 12th July 2018, 01:34 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
You think Mayo's NPD description matches Obama? Troubled relationships? Financial problems? Lack of empathy? Vulnerable to the slightest criticism? Deep need for excessive admiration? I'm not seeing that. I don't see it with Bush Jr, Clinton, Bush Sr, or Reagan, either. Nixon was before my time.
Politicians are not limited to POTUS or those who are former POTUS.
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Old 12th July 2018, 01:48 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Politicians are not limited to POTUS or those who are former POTUS.
I mentioned POTUS's because everyone is familiar with them and, by virtue of the position, we get extraordinary amounts of data on their behavior. I don't doubt there are narcissistic politicians all over the place, if that was your point, but if it was, it's a point that's trivially true. But to have a narcissist as a President is quite a different thing. Going back 100 years, I can only think of one other, and that's iffy: Nixon.

ETA: And to have a narcissist as President in the nuclear age is very concerning. I don't think Trump can launch a senseless nuclear attack (I think Mattis and everyone down the line would oppose it), but I'm not 100% sure about that, and it alarms me, because I'm sure that Trump is capable of ordering such an attack.

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Old 12th July 2018, 02:34 PM   #75
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Actually, as a conservative, it was Trump's economic approach that was the kicker for me to leave the Republican Party. I'm afraid his approach could lead to real long term damage to the economy.

Still not joining the Democrats though.
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Old 12th July 2018, 04:12 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I mentioned POTUS's because everyone is familiar with them and, by virtue of the position, we get extraordinary amounts of data on their behavior. I don't doubt there are narcissistic politicians all over the place, if that was your point, but if it was, it's a point that's trivially true. But to have a narcissist as a President is quite a different thing. Going back 100 years, I can only think of one other, and that's iffy: Nixon.

ETA: And to have a narcissist as President in the nuclear age is very concerning. I don't think Trump can launch a senseless nuclear attack (I think Mattis and everyone down the line would oppose it), but I'm not 100% sure about that, and it alarms me, because I'm sure that Trump is capable of ordering such an attack.


Begging the question.


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Old 12th July 2018, 07:13 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Begging the question.


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Are you still questioning whether Trump has NPD? Good lord.
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Old 13th July 2018, 05:58 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Are you still questioning whether Trump has NPD? Good lord.
He denies that there is any way for you to know that. Not quite the same thing, but I assume it makes it easier to rationalize having voted for such an obviously abnormal person.
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Old 13th July 2018, 06:08 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Actually, as a conservative, it was Trump's economic approach that was the kicker for me to leave the Republican Party. I'm afraid his approach could lead to real long term damage to the economy.

Still not joining the Democrats though.
But not his flirting with racists? Interesting.

Anyrate, I agree, he's not a conservative and the GOP has lost any pretense at being anything but a tribe at this point. I've been listening to a bunch of conservative podcast since he got the nomination, its pretty interesting to listen to the few that hold on to conservatism over loyalty. They like a lot of what trump is doing domestically, judges and rolling back the regulatory state but find everything else about him repugnant.

One of them had a great line regarding Trumps dealing with NATO. "As usually, he's down the street and around the corner from a valid point."
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Old 13th July 2018, 01:31 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
But not his flirting with racists? Interesting.

Anyrate, I agree, he's not a conservative and the GOP has lost any pretense at being anything but a tribe at this point. I've been listening to a bunch of conservative podcast since he got the nomination, its pretty interesting to listen to the few that hold on to conservatism over loyalty. They like a lot of what trump is doing domestically, judges and rolling back the regulatory state but find everything else about him repugnant.

One of them had a great line regarding Trumps dealing with NATO. "As usually, he's down the street and around the corner from a valid point."
His flirting with racists was why I already did not like candidate Trump, among other things. When the party betrayed any principles it had with regards to economics, by throwing its weight behind Trump, I left the party - it had totally deserted anything attracting me to it at that point.

If you are implying I am racist, you are wrong

If you are saying I associate at times with racists, well I have racist relatives, have had racist coworkers, and have very probably bought and sold things from and to racists. If the opportunity permits, I make my views known with such folks. If I believe I can influence them to be more non-racist, I will make an effort to do so.
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