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Old 9th July 2018, 11:59 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It's not a matter of anybody degrading anybody. It's a matter of one person being completely, senselessly subservient to the other. The same metaphor would be just as appropriate -- maybe more so -- if the person imagined in kneepads was Sarah Sanders, Kellyanne Conway or -- maybe especially -- Kirstjen Nielsen.
Then find a metaphore for senselessly subservient that isn't also homophobic.
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Old 9th July 2018, 12:11 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Then find a metaphore for senselessly subservient that isn't also homophobic.
It's only homophobic if you think there's something wrong with two men having sex. Would it be "homophobic" if the servicing party was Kirstjen Nielsen, who has reportedly been insulted, demeaned and abused by Trump in staff meetings, and does whatever he says anyway? It's not the act, it's the participants that make the metaphor.

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Old 9th July 2018, 12:12 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"Extreme nationalism" and "isolationism" aren't even destruction of anything.
They are if they break down alliances forged over multiple decades and even centuries. They are if they break down whole peoples into reviled others.

Of course, those aren't the only things I listed.


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't think they've even been that extreme.
Do you find Trump to be moderate, measured, or even reserved in his actions and rhetoric compared to "other contemporary administrations"?
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Old 9th July 2018, 12:18 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It's not a matter of anybody degrading anybody. It's a matter of one person being completely, senselessly subservient to the other. The same metaphor would be just as appropriate -- maybe more so -- if the person imagined in kneepads was Sarah Sanders, Kellyanne Conway or -- maybe especially -- Kirstjen Nielsen.
Wow, you have a lot of hangups about sex. And women.

It's not about one man giving another man a blowjob. It's about one man being "completely, senselessly subservient" - the way you think of women, when you think of oral sex.

Have you considered simply discussing McConnell's history with Trump in its own terms, rather than in terms of increasingly silly and dehumanizing sex metaphors? I understand it might be a little more difficult to demonstrate McConnell's senseless subservience to Trump, if you have to talk about stuff that has actually happened, instead of using symbols and allusions. But it would have the advantage of being true stuff that we could actually examine for what it is.
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Old 9th July 2018, 12:37 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
His first year is on course to not be particularly destructive. There's no indication that he's going to ramp up his destructiveness. Historians won't be caught up in the partisan rhetoric of the moment. They'll also have more opportunity to review the long-term effects.
Who doesn't love a good trade war with almost every trading partner?
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Old 9th July 2018, 12:38 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Who doesn't love a good trade war with almost every trading partner?
That's not fair, nor accurate.

Almost every major trading partner.

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Old 9th July 2018, 12:39 PM   #127
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Yes Trump is a horrible president who has done such damage we'll never recover. He's the guy who has finally proved how bad the other side is.

So was Obama. And Bush. And Clinton. And Bush again. And Reagan. And Carter. And Ford. And Nixon. Every President is the worst ever and the beginning of the end.

The rhetoric has always been extreme, always been "And I'm serious this time," always been "All is lost! All is lost!" We've been at the "There's no turning back!" moment in American politics my entire life.

Why should I believe anyone who says it now?

Let me be clear. I firmly believe that most of the Democrats/Liberals posting in this thread do honestly believe Trump is a special kind of wrong. And I think that as well. He's bad. He's broken the system. He needs to be stopped.

But, and I'm just gonna have to be blunt here, I also firmly believe that if Trump was just another run of mill Republican with the standard party line Republican opinions the amount of "He's da wurst evar!" would stay about the same. The doom and gloom, the "There's no turning back!," the "I know we said that about the last President but this time we mean it!" the faux-incredulity at anyone who doesn't see everything exactly like they do... would all be pretty much the same.

He's ruined the country! So did Obama.
He's made America a laughing stock! So did Bush.
He's in league with other countries! So was Obama.
He wants to be a dictator! So did Bush.
There's no evil he won't stoop to! Same as... every President ever.

Maybe if all the political fanboys hadn't spent the entire modern era demonizing the other side when an actual demon did come along you'd have some language left in reserve that would mean anything. As it stands you can't go anymore hyperbolic because you broke that curve a long time ago.

I honestly believe (and again agree) that most people here do think Trump is objectively worse than Bush. But I think the rhetoric has already been so completely "needle pegged in the red" for so long it all sounds the same.

So I'm sorry but the outrage checks are bouncing at this point. You used up that line credit before you got around to seeing something you really needed to buy with it.

I agree with you intellectually, but emotionally I'm numb. This is just the same noise from the tribes I've been hearing all my life.

And this is politics where the emotional sell is more important than the intellectual argument.
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Old 9th July 2018, 12:44 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
They are if they break down alliances forged over multiple decades and even centuries.
I think future historians will conclude that those alliances weathered the Trump presidency with very little damage.

Quote:
They are if they break down whole peoples into reviled others.
Not a Trumpian innovation, not particularly destructive. The US survived a civil war arising from that premise. Far from being destroyed, it arguably emerged even stronger and better than before.

Quote:
Of course, those aren't the only things I listed.
If you intended them to be on your list, then let's discuss them. If you didn't, then concede the point and pick something else from your list to discuss.

Quote:
Do you find Trump to be moderate, measured, or even reserved in his actions and rhetoric compared to "other contemporary administrations"?
We were talking about Trump's reckless destruction that needs to be stopped by impeachment as soon as possible. Now we're down to impeaching him because we don't like the way he expresses himself. Is that the real problem? Trump talks a lot of trash? Trump talks a lot of trash, and what? The world keeps spinning. The alliances continue. Trade and diplomacy play out much as they always have. Some things get a little better, some things get a little worse. None of the real changes are irreversible. Few of them are even very significant.

What do you think future historians will point to, as the most exemplary example of destructive destruction, from Trump's first year in office?

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Old 9th July 2018, 12:51 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Who doesn't love a good trade war with almost every trading partner?
I don't. But I also don't think we need to impeach the president just to stop him from raising tariffs (temporarily). Is that the reckless destruction we need to put a stop to?
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Old 9th July 2018, 12:59 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Lying under oath in a sexual harassment case.

Personally I never thought President Clinton should be impeached and according to what we know now there is no reason for President Trump either.
Clearly, given Mueller has yet to report his findings.

But I expect there will be money laundering, conspiring with the DNC email hackers and colluding with more than just Russia during the campaign. It looks like Trump got help from multiple foreign countries in the election.
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Old 9th July 2018, 01:01 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
The Trump administration is the most nakedly corrupt of my lifetime; nepotism, cronyism, pay-to-play, you name it. He's actively alienating and distancing us from our allies while furthering Putin's agenda internationally. He is pursuing a nonsensical trade war for no apparent reason. So, yes. There is plenty of reasons to punish Trump.

But I honestly don't care if he is "punished" beyond being removed from office. The man is a danger and a threat to the US. He needs to be removed from office solely on those grounds alone. Call it "treason", if you like. You wouldn't be wrong.
This ^. Well said.
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Old 9th July 2018, 01:05 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think future historians will conclude that those alliances weathered the Trump presidency with very little damage.
You also don't think nationalism or isolationism is destructive. That isn't terribly reassuring about your understanding of history.


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not a Trumpian innovation, not particularly destructive. The US survived a civil war arising from that premise. Far from being destroyed, it arguably emerged even stronger and better than before.
...what are you talking about? The Civil War decimated the southern states economically and put a great amount of debt on the US government. And, although slavery is gone, black people in America are still effected by consequences of slavery and racism in this country. This statement is blindingly ignorant of US history.


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If you intended them to be on your list, then let's discuss them. If you didn't, then concede the point and pick something else from your list to discuss.
I did. You quoted my post that included them.


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
We were talking about Trump's reckless destruction that needs to be stopped by impeachment as soon as possible. Now we're down to impeaching him because we don't like the way he expresses himself.
No. You are arguing that Trump is not an extremist in his nationalism. Do you consider him to be a moderate nationalist?
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Old 9th July 2018, 01:08 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes Trump is a horrible president who has done such damage we'll never recover. He's the guy who has finally proved how bad the other side is.

So was Obama. And Bush. And Clinton. And Bush again. And Reagan. And Carter. And Ford. And Nixon. Every President is the worst ever and the beginning of the end.

The rhetoric has always been extreme, always been "And I'm serious this time," always been "All is lost! All is lost!" We've been at the "There's no turning back!" moment in American politics my entire life.

Why should I believe anyone who says it now?

Let me be clear. I firmly believe that most of the Democrats/Liberals posting in this thread do honestly believe Trump is a special kind of wrong. And I think that as well. He's bad. He's broken the system. He needs to be stopped.

But, and I'm just gonna have to be blunt here, I also firmly believe that if Trump was just another run of mill Republican with the standard party line Republican opinions the amount of "He's da wurst evar!" would stay about the same. The doom and gloom, the "There's no turning back!," the "I know we said that about the last President but this time we mean it!" the faux-incredulity at anyone who doesn't see everything exactly like they do... would all be pretty much the same.

He's ruined the country! So did Obama.
He's made America a laughing stock! So did Bush.
He's in league with other countries! So was Obama.
He wants to be a dictator! So did Bush.
There's no evil he won't stoop to! Same as... every President ever.

Maybe if all the political fanboys hadn't spent the entire modern era demonizing the other side when an actual demon did come along you'd have some language left in reserve that would mean anything. As it stands you can't go anymore hyperbolic because you broke that curve a long time ago.

I honestly believe (and again agree) that most people here do think Trump is objectively worse than Bush. But I think the rhetoric has already been so completely "needle pegged in the red" for so long it all sounds the same.

So I'm sorry but the outrage checks are bouncing at this point. You used up that line credit before you got around to seeing something you really needed to buy with it.

I agree with you intellectually, but emotionally I'm numb. This is just the same noise from the tribes I've been hearing all my life.

And this is politics where the emotional sell is more important than the intellectual argument.
Your examples lack the actual facts and amount to false equivalencies. .

Bush started a needless war we are still in. Trump is screwing up everything, who knows what permanent damage he's done and will do.

You may not like the ACA but you can't cite how it ruined the country.
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Old 9th July 2018, 01:13 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
...what are you talking about? The Civil War decimated the southern states economically and put a great amount of debt on the US government. And, although slavery is gone, black people in America are still effected by consequences of slavery and racism in this country. This statement is blindingly ignorant of US history.
Fair point. I'm open to the idea that the Civil War was an unnecessary tragedy, and that we might have had a better outcome if we'd let slavery run out the clock peacefully. It's too late to impeach Jefferson Davis, though. Or Abraham Lincoln, for that matter, if he's the one you blame for the reckless destruction.

Is that why we need to impeach Donald Trump? To put a stop to his Civil War-tier destruction of America?
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Old 9th July 2018, 01:20 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
No. You are arguing that Trump is not an extremist in his nationalism. Do you consider him to be a moderate nationalist?
I don't consider "nationalism" to be objective enough of a term to admit rational discussion.
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Old 9th July 2018, 01:21 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Fair point. I'm open to the idea that the Civil War was an unnecessary tragedy, and that we might have had a better outcome if we'd let slavery run out the clock peacefully. It's too late to impeach Jefferson Davis, though. Or Abraham Lincoln, for that matter, if he's the one you blame for the reckless destruction.

Is that why we need to impeach Donald Trump? To put a stop to his Civil War-tier destruction of America?
...Is this parody? Did I fall for a Poe?
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Old 9th July 2018, 01:23 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think future historians will conclude that those alliances weathered the Trump presidency with very little damage.
Too late for that prediction. The best we can hope for now is that future presidents can repair the damage already done.
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Old 9th July 2018, 01:24 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
His first year is on course to not be particularly destructive. There's no indication that he's going to ramp up his destructiveness. Historians won't be caught up in the partisan rhetoric of the moment. They'll also have more opportunity to review the long-term effects.
Well, he hasn't invaded a country yet, so he hasn't been as destructive as Bush. And you can make the argument that exposing America's fault lines and bringing the racist/sexist deplorables out in the open is a long-term good thing, like some painful medical procedure you've been putting off. And he's doing generational damage to the GOP they'll probably never recover from.

So there are some good things. But having a narcissistic buffoon as Commander in Chief is terrifying, humiliating, and will probably not end well.
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Old 9th July 2018, 01:27 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't consider "nationalism" to be objective enough of a term to admit rational discussion.
Trump: I Am A Nationalist In A True Sense

There is a lot of what you're saying that could not be admitted as rational discussion.
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Old 9th July 2018, 01:32 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes Trump is a horrible president who has done such damage we'll never recover. He's the guy who has finally proved how bad the other side is.

So was Obama. And Bush. And Clinton. And Bush again. And Reagan. And Carter. And Ford. And Nixon. Every President is the worst ever and the beginning of the end.
.....
Every other president has come to the White House after extensive experience in lower public offices, military service or often both. They have displayed a basic commitment to core American principles despite their views on particular issues. What other president has openly disparaged the FBI, demeaned the federal judiciary, and called for opponents to be locked up? What other president has been openly contemptuous of our allies and fawned over foreign tyrants? It is a tragic mistake to normalize Trump. There's is nothing normal about Trump. And real conservatives most of all should be horrified by his rejection of core conservative values.

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Old 9th July 2018, 01:39 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It is a tragic mistake to normalize Trump. There's is nothing normal about Trump. And real conservatives most of all should be horrified by his rejection of core conservative values.
^ This. ^

Being against those things you list is not, and should not be, a partisan issue. For a lot of Republicans, thankfully, they aren't.
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Old 9th July 2018, 01:43 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Every other president has come to the White House after extensive experience in lower public offices, military service or often both.
And my point is the rhetoric was exactly the same, exactly as extreme, exactly as gloom and doom, all is lost, this is the end, for those people; the people we just disagreed with, as it is for the guy we're actually scared of.

The noisemakers from the tribes make the same noise at someone they disagree with 100% as they do at someone who they disagree with 1%. There's no nuance, no scaling, no point of reference.
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Old 9th July 2018, 01:49 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And my point is the rhetoric was exactly the same, exactly as extreme, exactly as gloom and doom, all is lost, this is the end, for those people; the people we just disagreed with, as it is for the guy we're actually scared of.

The noisemakers from the tribes make the same noise at someone they disagree with 100% as they do at someone who they disagree with 1%. There's no nuance, no scaling, no point of reference.
Awfully broad brush you've got there.
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Old 9th July 2018, 01:51 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And my point is the rhetoric was exactly the same, exactly as extreme, exactly as gloom and doom, all is lost, this is the end, for those people; the people we just disagreed with, as it is for the guy we're actually scared of.

The noisemakers from the tribes make the same noise at someone they disagree with 100% as they do at someone who they disagree with 1%. There's no nuance, no scaling, no point of reference.
No, Trump is uniquely unqualified and dangerous, as evidenced by members of his own party calling him unfit and calling their party "cult-like". That is new in American politics.
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Old 9th July 2018, 03:11 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Too late for that prediction. The best we can hope for now is that future presidents can repair the damage already done.
What is the most sigificant damage, in real, measurable terms, that Trump has done to American alliances? Obviously he hasn't yet destroyed NATO. The UNSC seems to be in no danger of falling apart. NAFTA, last time I checked, wasn't going anywhere. About the worst thing he's done, treaty-wise, was fail to underwrite Ukrainian security, something the US had promised to do as part of the agreement that split up the USSR.
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Old 9th July 2018, 03:18 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Well, he hasn't invaded a country yet, so he hasn't been as destructive as Bush. And you can make the argument that exposing America's fault lines and bringing the racist/sexist deplorables out in the open is a long-term good thing, like some painful medical procedure you've been putting off. And he's doing generational damage to the GOP they'll probably never recover from.

So there are some good things. But having a narcissistic buffoon as Commander in Chief is terrifying, humiliating, and will probably not end well.
After 8 years of "terrifying, humiliating" rhetoric about Bush, I've developed antibodies, and am essentially immune to more of the same. Seeing conservatives indulge in the same jackass rhetoric about Obama acted as a nice booster shot.

And now we've gone from needing to impeach Trump to stop the reckless destruction, to needing to impeach Trump to stop progressives from feeling terrified and humiliated, and to prevent hypothetical future destruction.

Which will never happen. We didn't impeach Bush for terrifying and humiliating progressives. We didn't impeach him after his reckless destruction in Iraq, let alone before. Same with Obama. We didn't impeach him for terrifying and humiliating conservatives. And we didn't impeach him for any of his various acts of destruction, both foreign and domestic.

Why are we impeaching him, again?
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Old 9th July 2018, 03:19 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
See what I mean? Trump has his own definition of nationalism. If you say Trump is a nationalist, what definition are you using? If you ask me to agree, what definition are you asking me to agree to?

To what definition are you asking me to agree?
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Old 9th July 2018, 03:52 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
After 8 years of "terrifying, humiliating" rhetoric about Bush, I've developed antibodies, and am essentially immune to more of the same. Seeing conservatives indulge in the same jackass rhetoric about Obama acted as a nice booster shot.
You mean like birtherism? And you still voted for the guy? I don't think you were inoculated enough.

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And now we've gone from needing to impeach Trump to stop the reckless destruction, to needing to impeach Trump to stop progressives from feeling terrified and humiliated, and to prevent hypothetical future destruction.
Corker, Flake, Will, Boot, etc. are not "progressives". Trump should be impeached (or removed by the cabinet) because he's an incompetent narcissist, not because of how people feel. Cults of personality do not usually end well.

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[ Which will never happen. We didn't impeach Bush for terrifying and humiliating progressives. We didn't impeach him after his reckless destruction in Iraq, let alone before. Same with Obama. We didn't impeach him for terrifying and humiliating conservatives. And we didn't impeach him for any of his various acts of destruction, both foreign and domestic.
The threshold for impeachment is high, but not infinitely so. The trickle of GOP condemnation we're seeing now could become a flood, if things go on long enough, or take an even more dangerous turn.

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Why are we impeaching him, again?
Can you have an honest discussion? One Logger was bad enough.
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Old 9th July 2018, 04:49 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Awfully broad brush you've got there.
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
No, Trump is uniquely unqualified and dangerous, as evidenced by members of his own party calling him unfit and calling their party "cult-like". That is new in American politics.
Are people's memories really that short? Is anyone actually going to sit here and argue that the rhetoric around Bush was significantly any more subdued then the current rhetoric around Trump?

Bush was also the worst President ever. Bush was also "different this time." Bush also ruined America's reputation throughout the world. Bush wanted to be a dictator. Bush was a monster. Bush was a draft dodger. Bush stole the election. Bush was gonna lead us into World War 3. And I remember plenty of facts and figures that proved all of that as well.

Again outside of "But this time we really mean it" what's the difference?

When every member of the other tribe is a monster, none of them are, even the ones that... actually are.
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Old 9th July 2018, 05:06 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Then find a metaphore for senselessly subservient that isn't also homophobic.
It's useful because Trump and his base are homophobic. I don't care if Trump engages in sex acts with other men except that his base would care. It wounds Trumps perverted sense of manhood to suggest he engages in sex acts with other men, even metaphorically. Why not do something that wounds Trump in the eyes of his supporters just because most people don't see anything wrong with it?
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Old 9th July 2018, 05:07 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
You mean like birtherism? And you still voted for the guy? I don't think you were inoculated enough.
I mean like conservatives ranting about how Obama was terrifying and humiliating them. I don't think you were paying attention to our conversation enough.

If you're not going to read and respond to the words I actually write, why should I continue this conversation?
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Old 9th July 2018, 05:20 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Are people's memories really that short? Is anyone actually going to sit here and argue that the rhetoric around Bush was significantly any more subdued then the current rhetoric around Trump?

Bush was also the worst President ever. Bush was also "different this time." Bush also ruined America's reputation throughout the world. Bush wanted to be a dictator. Bush was a monster. Bush was a draft dodger. Bush stole the election. Bush was gonna lead us into World War 3. And I remember plenty of facts and figures that proved all of that as well.

Again outside of "But this time we really mean it" what's the difference?

When every member of the other tribe is a monster, none of them are, even the ones that... actually are.
Bush was the worst President ever, until Trump. It seems to be part of a GOP plan to make previous GOP Presidents look better by electing ever worse ones.

Kidding aside, you seem to be leaving out one important fact. The effects of one President do not simply stop as soon as they leave office. We didn't leave Iraq and Afghanistan once Obama took the oath, and a lot of Americans have not yet recovered from the housing debacle. Obama made a lot of mistakes, but a lot of what he did during his presidency was digging us out of the hole the Bush administration left us in (with the GOP fighting like crazy for us to dig deeper).

If you look at a graph of global temperatures over time, it is not a single uninterrupted upward line. It goes up and down, but over time it goes up more than it goes down.

Repeatedly electing Presidents who cause harm to America with failed conservative ideas and bigotry can lead to a permanent downward trajectory for the nation, even if we have an occasional moderate like Clinton or Obama.
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Old 9th July 2018, 05:30 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Are people's memories really that short? Is anyone actually going to sit here and argue that the rhetoric around Bush was significantly any more subdued then the current rhetoric around Trump?

Bush was also the worst President ever. Bush was also "different this time." Bush also ruined America's reputation throughout the world. Bush wanted to be a dictator. Bush was a monster. Bush was a draft dodger. Bush stole the election. Bush was gonna lead us into World War 3. And I remember plenty of facts and figures that proved all of that as well.

Again outside of "But this time we really mean it" what's the difference?

When every member of the other tribe is a monster, none of them are, even the ones that... actually are.
Bush was bad, but the difference between Bush and Trump is that Bush surrounded himself with people that knew the job and for the most part had the welfare of Americans in mind.

The real damage that the Trump Administration has done is not going to be know fully for year, and most of it has been occurring under the Radar. How many generations will be harmed with toxic wastes now being allowed to be dumped into water supplies? Look at how hard they tried to hide the military base water contamination issues.

Not only will the environment suffer, and thus the people that rely on it, but the same is true for all Federal departments. Law enforcement, Justice, and Intelligence are under daily attack from the President. Education is being redesigned by a woman that doesn't have a clue how it works, the Department of Energy is being run by a guy that wanted to shut them down until he was told that they were responsible for the country's nuclear weapons. Time and time again we are seeing lobbyists and those anti to the departments, given the keys to redesign them and create policies that are less American people friendly, and more Corporate friendly, removing the regulations that were put there to prevent Corporations from running roughshod over everyday people. We say and watched in horror as a Head of Department took free and then reduced rent from the head of a company he was supposed to be regulating, to using his federal employees to illegally run his personal errands, then finally having him caught scrubbing his calendar of meetings with corporate lobbyists before they were released publicly. And when he was finally forced to resign, the President responds by saying what a great job the guy had been doing and he was sad to see him go, praising an utterly inept and corrupt department head instead of having fired him months before when any ordinary boss would have done.

And this is the real issue. It'd not the fact that Trump is cozying up to Dictators while alienating the US's traditional Allies in Europe and the South Pacific. It's not that his policies and those he appoints to international conventions end up making the US look like the Bad Guys time and time again, and at the same time create the space for Russia and China to step in and become the Good Guys. It's not that he's breaking agreements, starting trade wars and doing other things that are going to impact the US consumer in their pockets, and stall the economy. It's not that his tax cuts are going to allow companies to increase their automation and cut more American jobs, while eventually coming back to bite the low and middle income earner squarely in the butt.

It's the hundreds of small and big changes that are attacks about the US Institutions that form the backbone of US Government and a stable and sort of equable society where the American people were free to prosper and grow knowing that they were protected from the excesses of greed of corporate American. That's what's going to be gone when American wakes back up, the Departments that protected them will be toothless and broken, and will take decades to repair.

And one last thing. While I don't believe that Trump has the smarts to allow him to do it, what his election and Presidency has shown so far is that for someone with the will and charisma, that the pathway to creating a Fascist USA has been lit and that the country can fall to it should the "right" leader arise. And that might be the scariest thing of all because, like nuclear weapons, that Genie is out of the bottle and there's no putting it back in.
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Old 9th July 2018, 05:39 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
That's what's going to be gone when American wakes back up, the Departments that protected them will be toothless and broken, and will take decades to repair.
Oh, no! Not decades!

See, this feels like you're just overblowing policy disagreements into apocalyptic fantasies.

And the Departments that protect us? Sure, when they're not hounding and harassing us. Or just making the situation worse, or toothless and broken already.

Decades hence, historians and economists and pundits will still be arguing over exactly what parts of which body count can be attributed which part of what policy under which administration. But I bet that all but the fringe extremists will agree that whatever direction the needle moved, it didn't actually move all that far, and was mostly corrected by the end of the next administration. For some definition of "corrected", anyway.

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Old 9th July 2018, 06:14 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes Trump is a horrible president who has done such damage we'll never recover. He's the guy who has finally proved how bad the other side is.

So was Obama. And Bush. And Clinton. And Bush again. And Reagan. And Carter. And Ford. And Nixon. Every President is the worst ever and the beginning of the end.

The rhetoric has always been extreme, always been "And I'm serious this time," always been "All is lost! All is lost!" We've been at the "There's no turning back!" moment in American politics my entire life.

Why should I believe anyone who says it now?

Let me be clear. I firmly believe that most of the Democrats/Liberals posting in this thread do honestly believe Trump is a special kind of wrong. And I think that as well. He's bad. He's broken the system. He needs to be stopped.

But, and I'm just gonna have to be blunt here, I also firmly believe that if Trump was just another run of mill Republican with the standard party line Republican opinions the amount of "He's da wurst evar!" would stay about the same. The doom and gloom, the "There's no turning back!," the "I know we said that about the last President but this time we mean it!" the faux-incredulity at anyone who doesn't see everything exactly like they do... would all be pretty much the same.

He's ruined the country! So did Obama.
He's made America a laughing stock! So did Bush.
He's in league with other countries! So was Obama.
He wants to be a dictator! So did Bush.
There's no evil he won't stoop to! Same as... every President ever.

Maybe if all the political fanboys hadn't spent the entire modern era demonizing the other side when an actual demon did come along you'd have some language left in reserve that would mean anything. As it stands you can't go anymore hyperbolic because you broke that curve a long time ago.

I honestly believe (and again agree) that most people here do think Trump is objectively worse than Bush. But I think the rhetoric has already been so completely "needle pegged in the red" for so long it all sounds the same.

So I'm sorry but the outrage checks are bouncing at this point. You used up that line credit before you got around to seeing something you really needed to buy with it.

I agree with you intellectually, but emotionally I'm numb. This is just the same noise from the tribes I've been hearing all my life.

And this is politics where the emotional sell is more important than the intellectual argument.
I get your point. The difference I see is how widespread it is. We haven't had people marching in the streets, and hounded out of restaurants. The people spewing over the top rhetoric about Obama and Clinton were kind of fringe. The GOP leadership tried to get everyone all fired up about that horrible monster, Clinton, but for the most part the country as a whole yawned.. The same was true of Bush on all subjects except the war, but that was a war. People get fired up about wars, what with all the dying that goes on during them.

Is Trump himself so incredibly, awfully, bad that he is in a completely different league? In most ways, not really, but he doesn't have, or even pretend to have, the level of dignity that one expects from a President. Despite that lack, he was elected. That's why I said earlier that I was not sure if he is a cause or a symptom. What does it say about the American people that we would elect such a man? The electorate has changed, and not for the better.

And then there's this thread. This forum was around in 2004 when Bush was running for re-election. By then, he had grown to be despised by many, but the few threads where the word "impeachment" was used were generally considered to be fringe craziness. Now, the concept of impeachment is practically mainstream, and legalities be damned.

It's disturbing.
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Old 9th July 2018, 06:33 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
And then there's this thread. This forum was around in 2004 when Bush was running for re-election. By then, he had grown to be despised by many, but the few threads where the word "impeachment" was used were generally considered to be fringe craziness. Now, the concept of impeachment is practically mainstream, and legalities be damned.
A July 7, 2007 poll put 39% of people approving of impeaching President Bush and removing him from office. On June 11th of 2008 thirty five articles of impeachment were actually introduced to the House, voted down 251 to 166. An impeachment resolution was also submitted for Vice President Dick Chaney, but never made it out of committee.

A July 7, 2014 poll put 33% of people approving of impeaching President Obama and removing him from office.

A Jun 22, 2018 poll put 42% of people approving of impeaching President Trump and removing him from office.

Where's this massive shift from crazy fringe to mainstream?
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Old 9th July 2018, 06:39 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It's not a matter of anybody degrading anybody. It's a matter of one person being completely, senselessly subservient to the other. The same metaphor would be just as appropriate -- maybe more so -- if the person imagined in kneepads was Sarah Sanders, Kellyanne Conway or -- maybe especially -- Kirstjen Nielsen.
Exactly. If Putin was a woman, I'd still make the same statement.
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Old 9th July 2018, 06:50 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I get your point. The difference I see is how widespread it is. We haven't had people marching in the streets, and hounded out of restaurants. The people spewing over the top rhetoric about Obama and Clinton were kind of fringe. The GOP leadership tried to get everyone all fired up about that horrible monster, Clinton, but for the most part the country as a whole yawned.. The same was true of Bush on all subjects except the war, but that was a war. People get fired up about wars, what with all the dying that goes on during them.

Is Trump himself so incredibly, awfully, bad that he is in a completely different league? In most ways, not really, but he doesn't have, or even pretend to have, the level of dignity that one expects from a President. Despite that lack, he was elected. That's why I said earlier that I was not sure if he is a cause or a symptom. What does it say about the American people that we would elect such a man? The electorate has changed, and not for the better.

And then there's this thread. This forum was around in 2004 when Bush was running for re-election. By then, he had grown to be despised by many, but the few threads where the word "impeachment" was used were generally considered to be fringe craziness. Now, the concept of impeachment is practically mainstream, and legalities be damned.

It's disturbing.
You can't impeach a POTUS for starting a war, even one based on lies (see how many POTUSes lied about the Vietnam War). But we did impeach a POTUS for cheating on the election, for breaking laws for his own personal gain (getting elected).

You can claim all the false equivalencies you want but they remain false equivalencies.

If any side started making impeachment a partisan tool it was Ken Starr and the GOP. They hounded Bill Clinton from before he was elected and they hounded Hillary from then on.

At least get your facts straight.
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Old 9th July 2018, 06:52 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
A July 7, 2007 poll put 39% of people approving of impeaching President Bush and removing him from office. On June 11th of 2008 thirty five articles of impeachment were actually introduced to the House, voted down 251 to 166. An impeachment resolution was also submitted for Vice President Dick Chaney, but never made it out of committee.

A July 7, 2014 poll put 33% of people approving of impeaching President Obama and removing him from office.

A Jun 22, 2018 poll put 42% of people approving of impeaching President Trump and removing him from office.

Where's this massive shift from crazy fringe to mainstream?
A link would be nice so we could see who introduced these bills and how much mainstream support they actually had.
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Old 9th July 2018, 06:59 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
A link would be nice so we could see who introduced these bills and how much mainstream support they actually had.
Bush Poll: http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...mpeaching_bush

Obama Poll: https://www.politico.com/story/2014/...percent-109369

Trump Poll: https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/22/polit...oll/index.html

The articles of impeachment for George Bush were introduced by Congressman Dennis Kucinich. The attempt to introduce impeachment articles for Dick Chaney was also by Kucinich.

I'm not sure what "mainstream support" you mean other than the raw numbers.
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