ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 11th July 2018, 09:52 AM   #81
The Greater Fool
Illuminator
 
The Greater Fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA, North America, Earth, Sol, Milky Way
Posts: 3,594
Exactly... all this stuff happens to white people all the time, so what's the issue? The fact that it happens to white people occasionally and people of color constantly is only a matter of degree.

And what's the big deal if police get called in? Police are our friends... if you're white. If your of color, police get aggressive quicker, fear you more, and shoot quicker. But, again, it's just a matter of degree.

"#MeToo... and am White!" misses the point by orders of magnitude.
__________________
- "Who is the Greater Fool? The fool? Or the one arguing with the Fool?" [Various; Uknown]
- "The only way to win is not to play." [Tsig quoting 'War Games']
The Greater Fool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 09:52 AM   #82
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 14,905
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This entirely misses the mark. If someone is hurt or killed, dear god, that is not a mundane event. Having the cops called because you step over a property line is mundane, and happens to everyone.

I can't say that it's ever happened to me.

And since you appear to be rather more obtuse than usual, the problem is that calling the cops on black and other minority people for "mundane" issues is far, far, far more likely to end up with the target of the call being injured or killed by police. Black children, let alone adults, have been injured and murdered by police for the "crimes" of playing in a park, riding their bicycle, sitting on their own porch, attending a pool party, all after some white person called to complain about them.

Having someone calling the cops because a lawnmower accidentally goes over a property line is not "mundane" it's excessive bordering on insane, regardless of who it happens to. Add into that the high likelihood that if the target of the call is black, or to a lesser extent hispanic, said person could end up injured or shot to death by police.

Dismissing these events as "mundane" is strange at best. Ignoring the demonstrated heightened risk is ostritching at the very least. And ignoring the fact that black and hispanic people are disproportionately targeted for these calls is simple denialism of the clear and present systemic racism that prompts them.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon

Last edited by luchog; 11th July 2018 at 09:53 AM.
luchog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 11:02 AM   #83
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,341
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I can't say that it's ever happened to me.

And since you appear to be rather more obtuse than usual, the problem is that calling the cops on black and other minority people for "mundane" issues is far, far, far more likely to end up with the target of the call being injured or killed by police. Black children, let alone adults, have been injured and murdered by police for the "crimes" of playing in a park, riding their bicycle, sitting on their own porch, attending a pool party, all after some white person called to complain about them.

Having someone calling the cops because a lawnmower accidentally goes over a property line is not "mundane" it's excessive bordering on insane, regardless of who it happens to. Add into that the high likelihood that if the target of the call is black, or to a lesser extent hispanic, said person could end up injured or shot to death by police.

Dismissing these events as "mundane" is strange at best. Ignoring the demonstrated heightened risk is ostritching at the very least. And ignoring the fact that black and hispanic people are disproportionately targeted for these calls is simple denialism of the clear and present systemic racism that prompts them.
An aside from the obvious racist cases: a study suggests that gentrifying neighborhoods also face a spike in police calls, often for unimportant matters. Could be deliberate, could be the gentrifiers simply preferring to call police instead of just talking to their neighbors. This runs into a large part of what you discuss above - these are getting publicized exactly so there's no "Oh, I didn't know, police are always so nice to everyone" excuses to accept when you call the cops on nonwhite people just going about their lives.

I know gentrifiers in DC have been pushing for a bill aimed at ending street musicians - despite the fact that the musicians have been there far longer than the new residents have. Black Lives Matter, among other groups, have been pushing back on this, and quite naturally lots of people are upset by new people moving in, and then complaining about the neighborhood they freely chose to move to.

ETA: the article discusses some other isues related to gentrification and police aggression as well, but I picked out the relevant portion.

Last edited by Mumbles; 11th July 2018 at 11:10 AM.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 11:26 AM   #84
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 26,680
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This entirely misses the mark. If someone is hurt or killed, dear god, that is not a mundane event. Having the cops called because you step over a property line is mundane, and happens to everyone.

It's never happened to me, and that includes the time as a teenager when me and some friends jumped a fence to cross someone's yard because there wasn't a walking path where we thought there was, and my friends were too lazy to take the long way around.

And yes, the homeowners saw us, as they were just arriving home when we all burst from their backyard.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 11:52 AM   #85
ahhell
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,745
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I can't say that it's ever happened to me.

And since you appear to be rather more obtuse than usual, the problem is that calling the cops on black and other minority people for "mundane" issues is far, far, far more likely to end up with the target of the call being injured or killed by police. Black children, let alone adults, have been injured and murdered by police for the "crimes" of playing in a park, riding their bicycle, sitting on their own porch, attending a pool party, all after some white person called to complain about them.
The evidence seems to indicate that this is wrong. Remember that book that came out a few years ago that conservatives claimed showed police weren't bigots? What their data actually showed is that police were just as likely to kill or injure white people if they interacted with white people. What drives up the rate of police violence toward black people is that they interact a lot more. So, there are two problems. Cops are way too trigger happy and they are way more likely to interact with black people, men especially.

Which I think actually supports your argument in this thread better than the idea that cops are more likely to shoot black people when they interact with them.

Anyrate, I think you are being far more obtuse than therm. The point he seems to be making(one I agree with) is that the constant threads regarding of the affect of "Blanking while black" aren't very productive because many are similar to things that happen to white people a lot too(all be it not as often) so they can be easily written off as, "That happens to me too, why jump to racism?" This one seems to be totally and obviously racist but that one with the BBQ in Oakland was not. Enough of the BBQing while black threads and folks start ignoring the wearing socks while black threads. And even if you several a day, all that proves is that there are few hundred or thousand racists in America. Which is not surprising to anyone and also not really evidence that racism in America has significant impact.

Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Exactly... all this stuff happens to white people all the time, so what's the issue? The fact that it happens to white people occasionally and people of color constantly is only a matter of degree.

And what's the big deal if police get called in? Police are our friends... if you're white. If your of color, police get aggressive quicker, fear you more, and shoot quicker. But, again, it's just a matter of degree.

"#MeToo... and am White!" misses the point by orders of magnitude.
That is even further of the mark. The point isn't "Me too I'm white!" Its that you could have a video like this of a white dude everyday because there are 300+ million people in the US so the constant stream of vidoes doesn't prove anything except there are a lot of ******** in America, which is undeniable. All the stream of videos of Americans being racist in petty ways does is show that there a lot of racist ******** in America, which is undeniable.

The data is pretty clear that racist discrimination takes a heavy toll on black people in the US, the videos don't really show that though. The may be counter productive, especially if its a relatively petty example.

Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
It's never happened to me, and that includes the time as a teenager when me and some friends jumped a fence to cross someone's yard because there wasn't a walking path where we thought there was, and my friends were too lazy to take the long way around.

And yes, the homeowners saw us, as they were just arriving home when we all burst from their backyard.
I've been pulled over by a cop for no good reason while walking home from a football game on a friday night while wearing my jersey. I've had a cop pull a gun on me in my own apartment. That proves as much as your story.

Last edited by ahhell; 11th July 2018 at 12:01 PM.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 12:33 PM   #86
The Greater Fool
Illuminator
 
The Greater Fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA, North America, Earth, Sol, Milky Way
Posts: 3,594
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
That is even further of the mark. The point isn't "Me too I'm white!" Its that you could have a video like this of a white dude everyday because there are 300+ million people in the US so the constant stream of vidoes doesn't prove anything except there are a lot of ******** in America, which is undeniable. All the stream of videos of Americans being racist in petty ways does is show that there a lot of racist ******** in America, which is undeniable.

The data is pretty clear that racist discrimination takes a heavy toll on black people in the US, the videos don't really show that though. The may be counter productive, especially if its a relatively petty example.
You explain away all of these videos because they don't make the point well enough, then think saying the data is pretty clear that racism takes a heavy toll makes it all ok. Nonsense. All these videos you are dismissing ARE part of the heavy toll. People claiming to "get it" yet dismissing the experience of people of color is part of the heavy toll.

Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I've been pulled over by a cop for no good reason while walking home from a football game on a friday night while wearing my jersey. I've had a cop pull a gun on me in my own apartment. That proves as much as your story.
Again, that must have been so horrible for you. People of color have more happen for less reason repeatedly. But, you just keep explaining it away.
__________________
- "Who is the Greater Fool? The fool? Or the one arguing with the Fool?" [Various; Uknown]
- "The only way to win is not to play." [Tsig quoting 'War Games']

Last edited by The Greater Fool; 11th July 2018 at 12:35 PM.
The Greater Fool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 12:43 PM   #87
ahhell
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,745
Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
You explain away all of these videos because they don't make the point well enough, then think saying the data is pretty clear that racism takes a heavy toll makes it all ok. Nonsense. All these videos you are dismissing ARE part of the heavy toll. People claiming to "get it" yet dismissing the experience of people of color is part of the heavy toll.


Again, that must have been so horrible for you. People of color have more happen for less reason repeatedly. But, you just keep explaining it away.
You really are not arguing in good faith.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 01:08 PM   #88
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 14,905
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
The evidence seems to indicate that this is wrong. Remember that book that came out a few years ago that conservatives claimed showed police weren't bigots? What their data actually showed is that police were just as likely to kill or injure white people if they interacted with white people.

Do you have a link, because the only recent report I recall seeing is that, while the police are generally trigger happy and likely to shoot white people, they are more likely to shoot black people on a per-incident basis. Also, I don't recall if the report differentiated between "white" and hispanic people, or if it controlled for mentally ill people, who are more likely to be shot than others.

And the degree to which black people or white people are being shot is an obfuscatory digression, since that's not what this is about. What this is about is the rate of the sorts of incidents that are targeted at minority people vs. the rate that are targeted at white people, and the relative severities of the responses to them.

Quote:
Anyrate, I think you are being far more obtuse than therm. The point he seems to be making(one I agree with) is that the constant threads regarding of the affect of "Blanking while black" aren't very productive because many are similar to things that happen to white people a lot too(all be it not as often) so they can be easily written off as, "That happens to me too, why jump to racism?"

I disagree, it's not about whether any single anecdote is "productive", it's about the dismissal of individual incidents without considering the frequency and prevalence of these incidents. It's also about putting faces to statistics.

People who will write individual incidents off as "I don't see racism here" are IME also the ones who are most likely to be denialists/ostriches in general. Who will, if not outright deny the existence of systemic racism, will minimize its prevalence and impact.

Yes, the denialists and ostriches will hyperfocus on the incidents in an attempt to atomize the data and deny as much of it as they can. They'll always find excuses to minimize the problem.


Quote:
This one seems to be totally and obviously racist but that one with the BBQ in Oakland was not.

That's not what I recall from the thread and my other reading, I don't see any conclusive evidence that it was "totally and obviously" not racist. In fact, despite the attempt at plausible deniability, racism was denied but not ruled out as a motivation. It's possible it wasn't, but it fits into a much larger, and well-documented pattern of systemic cultural racism.

Quote:
Enough of the BBQing while black threads and folks start ignoring the wearing socks while black threads.

The people who are going to ignore them will do so anyway, the rest of us will take them for what they are.

Quote:
And even if you several a day, all that proves is that there are few hundred or thousand racists in America. Which is not surprising to anyone and also not really evidence that racism in America has significant impact.

And this is exactly what I'm talking about. That sort of denialism. Minorities have been complaining for many decades about this sort of treatment, and were ignored because "there's no evidence of it". Now that the evidence is coming out, they're being ignored because "this still isn't enough evidence", and the dismissal of the evidence as either "not really racism" or "just an isolated incident."

Denialsts will deny, ostriches will ignore, all the evidence that keeps piling up.

Quote:
That is even further of the mark. The point isn't "Me too I'm white!" Its that you could have a video like this of a white dude everyday because there are 300+ million people in the US

So where are they? If it happens to white people just as often as black people, then there should be three times as many of these videos involving white people. I certainly see enough of them targeting homeless people of all colours.

Quote:
The data is pretty clear that racist discrimination takes a heavy toll on black people in the US, the videos don't really show that though. The may be counter productive, especially if its a relatively petty example.

And that's the problem right there, dismissing "petty" racism as a non-issue. The problem with that, and the biggest issue that most people seem to fail to understand, is that the vast majority of racist incidents experienced by minorites in this country are petty. It's the sheer prevalence and frequency of this sort of "petty" everyday racism that is the problem, that causes constant ongoing problems for minorities that white people just don't face to anywhere near the same degree. Dismissing this as "petty" fails to understand the sort of constant, long-term, ongoing trauma that this inflicts upon minority individuals and communities.

When it's the rare incident caused by some nutcase busybody, it's easy to blow it off, to see it as just one crazy individual. When you're experiencing these sorts of incidents constantly, from many different individuals, eventually they start to wear on you, they start to have an impact you can't just shake off and ignore, they start to look like something a whole lot deeper than just one or two paranoid idiots.

Quote:
I've been pulled over by a cop for no good reason while walking home from a football game on a friday night while wearing my jersey. I've had a cop pull a gun on me in my own apartment. That proves as much as your story.

And I have similar stories, but those aren't relevant here. They're merly a distracting tangent from the issue at hand. The problem with over-reacting police is a different issue. What the issue is is how often these interactions happen to minorities vs. white people due to cultural racism.

Imagine that you got pulled over or hassled by a cop nearly every time you walked home from a football game, or pub, or wherever, because someone else decided you didn't belong there. Imagine that you got subjected to "stop and frisk" a few times a week. Imagine that instead of a copy in your home, that you had the cruising outside your home, three or four times a week, hands on weapons, giving you the hairy eyeball, telling you that they're "keeping an eye on" you. Imagine living in a neighborhood where you're constantly looked at askance by your neighbors, where they treat you as an outsider, like you don't belong, like you're a criminal that they need to keep a special eye on.

I haven't had that happen to me, personally, but I've lived for over a decade in a neighborhood that was, up until just the last couple years, predominantly black, with some hispanics, some asians, and very few white people. I got to witness all sorts of crap.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon

Last edited by luchog; 11th July 2018 at 01:10 PM.
luchog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 03:07 PM   #89
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,341
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Imagine that you got pulled over or hassled by a cop nearly every time you walked home from a football game, or pub, or wherever, because someone else decided you didn't belong there. Imagine that you got subjected to "stop and frisk" a few times a week. Imagine that instead of a copy in your home, that you had the cruising outside your home, three or four times a week, hands on weapons, giving you the hairy eyeball, telling you that they're "keeping an eye on" you. Imagine living in a neighborhood where you're constantly looked at askance by your neighbors, where they treat you as an outsider, like you don't belong, like you're a criminal that they need to keep a special eye on.

I haven't had that happen to me, personally, but I've lived for over a decade in a neighborhood that was, up until just the last couple years, predominantly black, with some hispanics, some asians, and very few white people. I got to witness all sorts of crap.
Recall Eric Garner, who was actually not selling loose cigarettes that day, was angry because, according to him, he was always being harrassed by the police, and he simply wanted them to leave him alone. For this, he was choked out. PEople act like this only happened once to him, or that he was actually "resisting arrest", despite having nothing to be arrested for.

Similar story for Freddie Gray - chased down, put into a box, and pulled out 1/2 hour later with a broken spine. Excuse was that he had a pocket knife- which officers couldn't have possibly known until then. It was later revealed that the Gun Trace Task Force, as a strategy, would speed up to groups of people, and simply grab and arrest whoever ran off at the site of a car pulling up. I also recall, from a DOJ report, that a single man was documented to have been stopped 30 times in a couple of years, and never arrested. ANd this is the stops the police documented - they only write up 10% or less of actual stops, according to many former police.

Black boys as young as 13 reported being stopped by police, in school uniforms, walking towards their school, and then being arrested and taken to the precinct because they didn't have state ID that the police recognized. Others describe being stopped at a checkpoint, frisked, and rudely sent along, only to be stopped again at another checkpoint 3-4 blocks up.

Recall this video, which has not been discussed here. According to witnesses a group of black men was standing around, undercover cop shows up and stands around with them, uniformed police show up and reveal he has a gun, and use this as an excuse to harass and search the entire group.

Recall this young man, arrested dozens of times for "trespassing" at his job, despite the store owner telling police that he was not trespassing.

These repeated indignities can really wear on a person - I could tell you plenty of stories myself of places I simply refuse to bother with, of people I wouldn't stop to help for any reason, and I know quit a few guys who see this as their nightmare scenario - that they simply snap one day after going through this sort of nonsense too many times.

Last edited by Mumbles; 11th July 2018 at 03:12 PM.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 04:54 PM   #90
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 26,680
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Recall this young man, arrested dozens of times for "trespassing" at his job, despite the store owner telling police that he was not trespassing.


Wow.

This right there is a good example of the "That's ridiculous!" stories I talked about earlier. On the face of it, it's just so ridiculous! Why would the cops spend so much time on such stupid actions? Once a week for years?!? If you heard this story from Some Guy At The Bar, you'd be sure that he was just full of ****.

And yet, there it is, on video. The cops really were just that *********** ridiculous.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 06:57 PM   #91
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,576
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Wow.

This right there is a good example of the "That's ridiculous!" stories I talked about earlier. On the face of it, it's just so ridiculous! Why would the cops spend so much time on such stupid actions? Once a week for years?!? If you heard this story from Some Guy At The Bar, you'd be sure that he was just full of ****.

And yet, there it is, on video. The cops really were just that *********** ridiculous.
It's even worse. His boss, Saleh, installed surveillance cameras and took them to the PD's internal affairs department. This is what happened:
Quote:
Saleh, whose store is tucked between a public park and working-class neighborhoods, contends that Miami Gardens police officers have repeatedly used racial slurs to refer to his customers and treat most of them like they are hardened criminals.

“Police line them up and tell them to put their hands against the wall. I started asking myself ‘Is this normal?’ I just kept thinking police can’t do this,’’ Saleh said.

Last year, Saleh, armed with a cache of videos, filed an internal affairs complaint about the arrests at his store. From that point, he said, police officers became even more aggressive.

One evening, shortly after he had complained a second time, a squadron of six uniformed Miami Gardens police officers marched into the store, he says. They lined up, shoulder to shoulder, their arms crossed in front of them, blocking two grocery aisles.

“Can I help you?” Saleh recalls asking. It was an entire police detail, known as the department’s Rapid Action Deployment (RAD) squad, whom he had come to know from their frequent arrest sweeps. One went to use the restroom, and five of them stood silently for a full 10 minutes. Then they all marched out.
It sounds like this PD is so thoroughly racist and fascist and so detached from what police's business should be in a democratic state, that the only solution is to line them up to the last man against the wall, burn down the station, salt the earth and then start anew.
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 06:07 AM   #92
Thermal
Illuminator
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 4,872
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
You really are not arguing in good faith.
Trust me, you get used to it. Question a story that doesn't toe the tribal/SJW line and you are branded as a racist for eternity. The weird thing is, those posters cannot read your comments clearly thereafter. Everything becomes interpreted through tribal-tinted glasses. Two thirds of your post will be ignored to walk your position around to something you entirely do not say. You start to wonder if it is all a put-on. Then you realize these cats truly can't understand your words when they have decided you are a racist, usually because they can totes just tell what you really mean.
__________________
I am looking for other websites; you suck. -banned buttercake aficionado yuno44907
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 06:23 AM   #93
The Greater Fool
Illuminator
 
The Greater Fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA, North America, Earth, Sol, Milky Way
Posts: 3,594
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Trust me, you get used to it. Question a story that doesn't toe the tribal/SJW line and you are branded as a racist for eternity. The weird thing is, those posters cannot read your comments clearly thereafter. Everything becomes interpreted through tribal-tinted glasses. Two thirds of your post will be ignored to walk your position around to something you entirely do not say. You start to wonder if it is all a put-on. Then you realize these cats truly can't understand your words when they have decided you are a racist, usually because they can totes just tell what you really mean.
Fine example of your accusations, there. Here's another word for you: Hypocrisy.

Point at all the fine details that are, in your eye, questionable, while grandly ignoring the obvious. Good job.
__________________
- "Who is the Greater Fool? The fool? Or the one arguing with the Fool?" [Various; Uknown]
- "The only way to win is not to play." [Tsig quoting 'War Games']
The Greater Fool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 06:27 AM   #94
ahhell
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,745
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Do you have a link, because the only recent report I recall seeing is that, while the police are generally trigger happy and likely to shoot white people, they are more likely to shoot black people on a per-incident basis. Also, I don't recall if the report differentiated between "white" and hispanic people, or if it controlled for mentally ill people, who are more likely to be shot than others.
I'm having trouble finding it from a source I trust. If I recall correctly it was from 2 or 3 years ago and a study of policing somewhere in the East Coast.
Quote:

And the degree to which black people or white people are being shot is an obfuscatory digression, since that's not what this is about. What this is about is the rate of the sorts of incidents that are targeted at minority people vs. the rate that are targeted at white people, and the relative severities of the responses to them.
If my above statement is true, then it is relevant. There are two distinct problems, police brutality and racism resulting disproportionate policy of black people. Solve one and we will still have the other.
Quote:


I disagree, it's not about whether any single anecdote is "productive", it's about the dismissal of individual incidents without considering the frequency and prevalence of these incidents. It's also about putting faces to statistics.

People who will write individual incidents off as "I don't see racism here" are IME also the ones who are most likely to be denialists/ostriches in general. Who will, if not outright deny the existence of systemic racism, will minimize its prevalence and impact.

Yes, the denialists and ostriches will hyperfocus on the incidents in an attempt to atomize the data and deny as much of it as they can. They'll always find excuses to minimize the problem.

I will point out that people including you and me almost always use evidence to back up our pre-existing beliefs, we almost never use evidence actually form those beliefs. A lot of these videos are ambiguous enough that they allow deniers to continue to deny. I also think the folks focusing on individual cases are those that create the stream of "Blanking while black" threads, who I do not think are deniers. So, its not the deniers hyperfocus on incidents.

Quote:


That's not what I recall from the thread and my other reading, I don't see any conclusive evidence that it was "totally and obviously" not racist. In fact, despite the attempt at plausible deniability, racism was denied but not ruled out as a motivation. It's possible it wasn't, but it fits into a much larger, and well-documented pattern of systemic cultural racism.

Not what I was saying, I think folks on your side tend to describe both incidents in similar ways where the second is pretty clear and first was not at all clear. In my opinion this muddies the water and provides further "evidence" for the deniers.
Quote:

The people who are going to ignore them will do so anyway, the rest of us will take them for what they are.

And this is exactly what I'm talking about. That sort of denialism. Minorities have been complaining for many decades about this sort of treatment, and were ignored because "there's no evidence of it". Now that the evidence is coming out, they're being ignored because "this still isn't enough evidence", and the dismissal of the evidence as either "not really racism" or "just an isolated incident."

Denialsts will deny, ostriches will ignore, all the evidence that keeps piling up.
So then whats the point of the "blanking while black threads?
If its not trying to convince people that don't believe racism is a problme, why bother?
Quote:

So where are they? If it happens to white people just as often as black people, then there should be three times as many of these videos involving white people. I certainly see enough of them targeting homeless people of all colours.
Who's interested in them? Who would bother? There are 300+millinion people in the US, the majority of whom are white. It would be surprising if there weren't several incidents a day of white being being unnecessarily harrassed by cops.

Quote:



And that's the problem right there, dismissing "petty" racism as a non-issue. The problem with that, and the biggest issue that most people seem to fail to understand, is that the vast majority of racist incidents experienced by minorites in this country are petty. It's the sheer prevalence and frequency of this sort of "petty" everyday racism that is the problem, that causes constant ongoing problems for minorities that white people just don't face to anywhere near the same degree. Dismissing this as "petty" fails to understand the sort of constant, long-term, ongoing trauma that this inflicts upon minority individuals and communities.

When it's the rare incident caused by some nutcase busybody, it's easy to blow it off, to see it as just one crazy individual. When you're experiencing these sorts of incidents constantly, from many different individuals, eventually they start to wear on you, they start to have an impact you can't just shake off and ignore, they start to look like something a whole lot deeper than just one or two paranoid idiots.




And I have similar stories, but those aren't relevant here. They're merly a distracting tangent from the issue at hand. The problem with over-reacting police is a different issue. What the issue is is how often these interactions happen to minorities vs. white people due to cultural racism.
Which is exactly my point in telling my story, also, petty means of lesser importance and attempt to distinguish it from say, hate crimes or what not.
It was not used to dismiss anything.
Quote:
Imagine that you got pulled over or hassled by a cop nearly every time you walked home from a football game, or pub, or wherever, because someone else decided you didn't belong there. Imagine that you got subjected to "stop and frisk" a few times a week. Imagine that instead of a copy in your home, that you had the cruising outside your home, three or four times a week, hands on weapons, giving you the hairy eyeball, telling you that they're "keeping an eye on" you. Imagine living in a neighborhood where you're constantly looked at askance by your neighbors, where they treat you as an outsider, like you don't belong, like you're a criminal that they need to keep a special eye on.

I haven't had that happen to me, personally, but I've lived for over a decade in a neighborhood that was, up until just the last couple years, predominantly black, with some hispanics, some asians, and very few white people. I got to witness all sorts of crap.
Anyrate, my point is individual videos are just anecdotes and do little if you want to convince people that racism is a problem that needs addressing. They are easily dismissed by those inclined to do so as either petty ******** being petty ******** regardless of race or as, well sure in a country this big there are going to be a few racist dickheads. The data actually shows there is a problem so I just don't understand the point of these threads on a skeptics forum.

Last edited by ahhell; 12th July 2018 at 06:32 AM.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 06:33 AM   #95
Thermal
Illuminator
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 4,872
Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Fine example of your accusations, there. Here's another word for you: Hypocrisy.

Point at all the fine details that are, in your eye, questionable, while grandly ignoring the obvious. Good job.
Great example, thanks for that!

I have said repeatedly that I think racism is a deadly serious problem. My argument is that these LWB threads are terrible examples of it and as such do more harm than good. But you literally cannot even see that argument.

Pray tell, what 'obvious' am I ignoring?
__________________
I am looking for other websites; you suck. -banned buttercake aficionado yuno44907
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 06:38 AM   #96
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,553
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Great example, thanks for that!

I have said repeatedly that I think racism is a deadly serious problem. My argument is that these LWB threads are terrible examples of it and as such do more harm than good. But you literally cannot even see that argument.

Pray tell, what 'obvious' am I ignoring?
Then what would be better?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 06:39 AM   #97
ahhell
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,745
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
It's even worse. His boss, Saleh, installed surveillance cameras and took them to the PD's internal affairs department. This is what happened:

It sounds like this PD is so thoroughly racist and fascist and so detached from what police's business should be in a democratic state, that the only solution is to line them up to the last man against the wall, burn down the station, salt the earth and then start anew.
Unlike the LWB threads, this is actually useful and informative for the reasons noted.

What therm just said.

Luchdog, Mumbles, the Greater Fool, etc, do know what its like to in a debate and somebody on your side is making an poor argument?
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 06:43 AM   #98
ahhell
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,745
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Then what would be better?
Data that show blacks are much more likely to be arrested than whites even for the same crimes, data that shows blacks are more likely to killed by police, or incarcerated or get harsher sentences for similar crimes, or get suspended from school for similar offences that white kids don't. Then analysis that shows it can't strictly be because they commit more crimes.

You know the evidence that we actually have.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 06:44 AM   #99
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 13,943
I really didn't expect this place to have such a hard time with the concept of "Evidence is better than anecdotes."
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 06:47 AM   #100
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,553
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Data that show blacks are much more likely to be arrested than whites even for the same crimes, data that shows blacks are more likely to killed by police, or incarcerated or get harsher sentences for similar crimes, or get suspended from school for similar offences that white kids don't. Then analysis that shows it can't strictly be because they commit more crimes.

You know the evidence that we actually have.
But is that more effective at actually convincing people? And it only shows a very small part of the total problem.

And again it is statistics, so there is no victim to form an emotional connection with.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 06:53 AM   #101
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,553
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I really didn't expect this place to have such a hard time with the concept of "Evidence is better than anecdotes."
But all the evidence in the world, and there are many people who find it totally unconvincing. So why are case studies of representative incidents not valuable as a supplement to statistics?

And the statistics also give no idea about how to do better as someone who is trying not to perpetuate systemic racism?

So statistics tell you that sure there is systemic racism, but hey nothing you or anyone else can do about it, after all you can't possibly apply it to any individual.

So we have say marajuana use in teens. The rate in black and whites are equal, but the black teens are much more likely to get arrested for it and if arrested face harsher sentencing. But of course there are no actual victims because which person can ever possibly claim that they were only arrested or sentenced because of their race? Clearly many are but no specific ones are. So there is no one to identify with.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 07:19 AM   #102
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,576
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Unlike the LWB threads, this is actually useful and informative for the reasons noted.

What therm just said.

Luchdog, Mumbles, the Greater Fool, etc, do know what its like to in a debate and somebody on your side is making an poor argument?
Thank you for the compliment, but it was actually Mumbles who first mentioned the shop worker, Earl Sampson, who had been arrested 258 times. I only followed a link in that article to read up on the story of the shop owner, Saleh, So really, the compliment should go to Mumbles for mentioning it in the first place.

Aside, I think these "anecdotes" are useful in that they highlight everyday racism as encountered by POC by their very neighbours. We already pretty much knew that many PDs have systemic racism problems.
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen

Last edited by ddt; 12th July 2018 at 07:21 AM.
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 07:59 AM   #103
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,275
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Thank you for the compliment, but it was actually Mumbles who first mentioned the shop worker, Earl Sampson, who had been arrested 258 times.
<constable_savage>
He's a villain and a jailbird.
</constable_savage>
Tolls is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 08:36 AM   #104
The Greater Fool
Illuminator
 
The Greater Fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA, North America, Earth, Sol, Milky Way
Posts: 3,594
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Great example, thanks for that!

I have said repeatedly that I think racism is a deadly serious problem. My argument is that these LWB threads are terrible examples of it and as such do more harm than good. But you literally cannot even see that argument.

Pray tell, what 'obvious' am I ignoring?
Again, you repeatedly acknowledge the problem and claim to accept the fact of institutional racism via statistics, then go on to explain away each individual case. You can't see the forest for all the trees. Each of these anecdotes are demonstrations of those facts you claim to accept.

I really do understand your point that these are poor examples of racism. Sure, these would be more compelling if there were more racial epithets slung, perhaps more beatings and bullets. You know, like the Saleh case, and all the others Mumbles has referenced.

The obvious point you are missing is these "... while black" threads highlight the constant drip, drip, drip of events that make up your flood of statistical proofs of racism. For each beating or shooting, there are thousands, tens of thousands, even millions of these every day indignities you would have us ignore. Yet, it is the deluge of these every day indignities that lead invariably to the beatings and bullets you find compelling.

Staying quiet about these indignities helps the cause of fighting racism how? Explaining how these are not (or may not) be racism helps the cause of fighting racism how? Because, when it happens to your family, repeatedly, listening to yet another explanation of why it isn't what it obviously is is ever so endearing.

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
It's even worse. His boss, Saleh, installed surveillance cameras and took them to the PD's internal affairs department. This is what happened:

It sounds like this PD is so thoroughly racist and fascist and so detached from what police's business should be in a democratic state, that the only solution is to line them up to the last man against the wall, burn down the station, salt the earth and then start anew.
That terrible situation with Saleh, his store, and the 258 arrests of his black employee is, again, terrible. But racism? Must we always jump to label everything 'racsim?' Examine this case: There were no racial slurs. The police were obviously doing their jobs, protecting the community.

Obviously, Saleh is behind on this protection donations.
__________________
- "Who is the Greater Fool? The fool? Or the one arguing with the Fool?" [Various; Uknown]
- "The only way to win is not to play." [Tsig quoting 'War Games']

Last edited by The Greater Fool; 12th July 2018 at 08:37 AM.
The Greater Fool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 08:38 AM   #105
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 27,897
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I really didn't expect this place to have such a hard time with the concept of "Evidence is better than anecdotes."
Anecdotes illustrate evidence.

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 08:39 AM   #106
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,553
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Anecdotes illustrate evidence.

Dave
That is why you call them case studies not anecdotes.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 08:52 AM   #107
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 39,114
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I really didn't expect this place to have such a hard time with the concept of "Evidence is better than anecdotes."
Why not ask TBD? I'm sure he has a friend in the prosecutor's office. Ask what they think of video tape as evidence?

"Bu... bu... your honor, I have these double-blind studies. All the defense has is photos, eye-witness testimony, CCTV footage and three people's phone videos."
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 08:55 AM   #108
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 26,680
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Data that show blacks are much more likely to be arrested than whites even for the same crimes, data that shows blacks are more likely to killed by police, or incarcerated or get harsher sentences for similar crimes, or get suspended from school for similar offences that white kids don't. Then analysis that shows it can't strictly be because they commit more crimes.

You know the evidence that we actually have.
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I really didn't expect this place to have such a hard time with the concept of "Evidence is better than anecdotes."

That would be the evidence that the people who are part of the problem have spent years ignoring.

If we've learned anything from the election of Trump, it's that the people who need convincing the most, simply will not be convinced by appeals to objective evidence. We can speculate as to why that is, but the fact of it seems undeniable.

So we're left with the problem of how to convince them to change their minds.

Well, Trump did it by simply repeating some easy-to-process catchphrases, over and over again. "Lock her up! Build the Wall! MAGA!"

So these "Xing while black" videos are an attempt to do that. People won't look at the data regarding different arrest and incarceration rates between blacks and whites for the same crimes, but maybe they'll have a visceral reaction to some guy being hassled for wearing socks, or for sitting in a coffee shop, or for having a cookout.

It ultimately may fail to work, but we know that the appeals to objective evidence have already failed to work.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 09:19 AM   #109
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 14,856
The statistics convincingly demonstrate that racism remains a major and broad problem in the USA. But statistics are impersonal and do not impact individuals in the way that is necessary to inspire change. People often glance at statistics, mutter something akin to "Oh my, that's unfortunate," and quickly move on. People connect to other people much better than to numbers; the videos of individual abuses provide an immediacy and provide a face that allow the viewer to realize, "My God, look at that! That is awful! That could be me! Now I understand better and something needs to be done about it."

People connect with, identify with, and are inspired by individual events. We can read that 15,000 children were diagnosed with last year and we simply turn the page and eat our breakfast. But a story about just one such child will cause us to pause and think, and may haunt us the rest of the day. At least some of us will, as a result, make a donation to an anti-cancer charity. Must that child have to be a representative average of all the other children with cancer to make the story relevant or important? Of course not.

During the civil rights demonstrations in the 1960s it were the videos of peaceful protesters being attacked by police dogs, clubbed to the ground by cops, and knocked down by fire hoses that caused the revulsion among other Americans that led to the civil rights laws. It were the photographs of the individuals beaten, tortured, or lynched killed by segregationists. It was not the dry statistical enumeration of discrimination that invoked change.

Last edited by Giordano; 12th July 2018 at 09:23 AM.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 09:25 AM   #110
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 14,905
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
So then whats the point of the "blanking while black threads?
If its not trying to convince people that don't believe racism is a problme, why bother?Who's interested in them? Who would bother?

No one is going to convince the deniers and ostriches. But there are a whole lot of ignorant people and fence sitters out there who can still be convinced. I myself was one of the ignorant fence-sitters prior to moving into my current neighborhood and witnessing all that I have over the last decade plus. That observational experience, combined with stuff I learned here and elsewhere, has brought home to me the depth and extent of the problem.

You also seem to have a rather narrow, provincial belief that the only people reading and affected by these threads are the people actually participating in them. That is far from the truth. There are going to be a whole lot of people out there who read but do not participate, and who may be profoundly affected by what they read in these threads.

Quote:
There are 300+millinion people in the US, the majority of whom are white. It would be surprising if there weren't several incidents a day of white being being unnecessarily harrassed by cops.

And yet, where are the videos? Where are the reports? There are plenty of people out there who will attempt to capture anything they see as government overreach or harassment. And there is a huge part of this country who would be very happy to have any evidence that supports their "white people are the true victims" narrative. So if these thing are happening to white people at the same or close to the same rate as to minorities, then there should be an equivalent rate of reporting.

But that is not what we see. While we do see videos of police harassing white people, there is nowhere near a proportionate rate of these incidents being reported by anyone.

It's also very important to differentiate the types of white people vs. the types of minority people who are subject to incidents with police and neighbors. When white people are the targets, the demographic is heavily weighted to younger people, teens and males in particular, and homeless people. When it's minorities who are the target, the demographics are much more widespread, and include far more adults and women.

The question is not whether police harass white people, they do. I've had that happen to me a few times. The question is whether they harass minorities at a disproportionate rate. Which they do, at a grossly disproportionate rate.

The question is not whether police get called on white people by busybodies and nutcases. Obviously they do. The question is whether the police get called on minorities by busybodies and nutcases at a disproportionate rate. Which they do, at a grossly disproportionate rate.

The question is not whether busybodies and nutcases harass their white neighbors. Obviously they do. The question is whether busybodies and nutcases harass minority neighbors at a disproportionate rate. Which they do, at a grossly disproportionate rate.

My personal experiences being harassed were nearly all from my teens to early-mid 20s (I looked like a teenager well into my 30s, and got treated accordingly).

All the reliable evidence that I have seen and that has been presented here on this forum has shown that minorities are subjected to a far higher rate of injustice and harassment than white people. But that hasn't stopped the deniers and ostriches from asserting otherwise, and pushing the "white people are the true victims" narrative.

Quote:
Which is exactly my point in telling my story, also, petty means of lesser importance and attempt to distinguish it from say, hate crimes or what not.
It was not used to dismiss anything.

And yet, that's the net effect of offhandedly relegating them to "petty" incidents that supposedly happen to everyone at the same rate.

Quote:
Anyrate, my point is individual videos are just anecdotes and do little if you want to convince people that racism is a problem that needs addressing.

My experience says otherwise. And just asimportantly, they put human faces on cold statistics.

Quote:
The data actually shows there is a problem so I just don't understand the point of these threads on a skeptics forum.

No one is forcing you to read or participate in these threads.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 09:32 AM   #111
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,576
Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
<constable_savage>
He's a villain and a jailbird.
</constable_savage>

Constable Savage is a complete wuss in comparison to the MGPD. IIRC, he had written up around 90 reports and arrested him only once.
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 10:07 AM   #112
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 14,905
Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
The obvious point you are missing is these "... while black" threads highlight the constant drip, drip, drip of events that make up your flood of statistical proofs of racism. For each beating or shooting, there are thousands, tens of thousands, even millions of these every day indignities you would have us ignore. Yet, it is the deluge of these every day indignities that lead invariably to the beatings and bullets you find compelling.

And that's the problem I've been trying to address. Too many people are unwilling to accept the existence of racism unless it's blatant and egregious. Only the most obvious and undeniable examples are considered valid.

But that's not how racism works. The vast majority of it is subtle, simple, "petty" and "mundane".

It's the dirty looks, the snide dismissals, the backhanded compliments, the offhand jokes. It's the poorer service offered to minorities vs. white people, the making them wait longer in lines, the smaller tips for minority vs. white servers, it's following minorities through the store to "make sure they're not stealing something", it's treating a black people with money as if they've stolen it rather than earned it and demanding extra verification they don't demand from white people. It's cities spending less to maintain and improve roads and streetlights in minority neighborhoods than in white neighborhoods, it's police taking longer to respond to calls in minority neighborhoods than white neighborhoods (if they show up at all), it's law enforcement treating every single crime in a minority neighborhood as gang-related and refusing to investigate or talk to neighbors, it's blaming the neighborhood for it's "silence" in the face of crimes despite the fact that police refused to talk to anyone who came forward to report crimes. it's construction obstructing access to business for months longer than scheduled in minority neighborhoods than white neighborhoods, it's minority businesses compensated less for said disruption than white businesses -- if they get compensated at all.

It's people insisting that every incident showing a minority person being harassed "must have more to the story" than garden-variety racism; or insisting that because it's not violent and blatant, it can't really be racism.

It's the whining about "political correctness run amok" and "government overreach" when someone actually tries to call attention to the subtle, insidious, systemic and cultural racism, and do something to remedy it.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 10:49 AM   #113
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,509
Look, these videos aren't showing us anything we don't already know. What the videos do, however, is put a face on what we know and starkly illustrate just how horrible it is to be on the receiving end. This stuff really happens and here is exactly what it looks like. The existence of racism in a significant portion of our population is uncontroversial. What racism actually looks like in everyday life is, to me anyway, shocking.

ETA: These are human beings being treated in deplorable ways . . . people like me. It's *********** heartbreaking is what it is.
__________________
Hello.

Last edited by xjx388; 12th July 2018 at 10:50 AM.
xjx388 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 09:08 PM   #114
Thermal
Illuminator
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 4,872
Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Again, you repeatedly acknowledge the problem and claim to accept the fact of institutional racism via statistics, then go on to explain away each individual case. You can't see the forest for all the trees. Each of these anecdotes are demonstrations of those facts you claim to accept.

I really do understand your point that these are poor examples of racism. Sure, these would be more compelling if there were more racial epithets slung, perhaps more beatings and bullets. You know, like the Saleh case, and all the others Mumbles has referenced.

The obvious point you are missing is these "... while black" threads highlight the constant drip, drip, drip of events that make up your flood of statistical proofs of racism. For each beating or shooting, there are thousands, tens of thousands, even millions of these every day indignities you would have us ignore. Yet, it is the deluge of these every day indignities that lead invariably to the beatings and bullets you find compelling.

Staying quiet about these indignities helps the cause of fighting racism how? Explaining how these are not (or may not) be racism helps the cause of fighting racism how? Because, when it happens to your family, repeatedly, listening to yet another explanation of why it isn't what it obviously is is ever so endearing.
Ok, I don't seem to be getting my point across. Let me try rephrasing. Please set aside whatever you might think about my comments for a moment and consider this:

Like most people who are..well...alive, I am aware of POC suffering race-based abuses, large and small. Large being the Ferguson PD, small being the almost subliminal 'you don't belong' messages. By that I mean the friendly greeting and small talk I get from a cashier, who flatly just says the amount due to the black guy in front of me. I get that. All of it. In fact, if you asked the most militant cross-burning Klansman if racism exists, he would also agree (tempered with a 'but they deserve it' or something). With me so far?

Now, most of the time when the more subtle 'drip drip drip' racism is going down, the cameras will not be rolling. So when the cameras do catch something, however weak, the Tumblr/SJW crowd pounces on it. That's where these threads come in. The issue is not trying to explain away the individual cases, like lung cancer in cigarette smokers. The issue is that the threads that have been captured on video and posted are not representative of the problem. So what, you ask? Well, let's assume that there is some imbecile out there who is on the fence about whether racism exists. I know, implausible stupidity, but please humor me. They read one of these LWB threads. Say, Mowing the Lawn While Black. What would their takeaway be? Honestly, now. They would likely say, 'wait, you call that racism? My kids had the neighborhood get-off-my-lawn crazy lady call the cops on them twice this year. If this is what is considered racism, then racism is not a thing'. And this is what I keep posting about: these well-meaning SJW's are shooting themselves in the foot by churning up a Twitter frenzy about these piss-poor examples. Racist behavior is going to end up being dismissed as whining about everyday BS, and that is counterproductive to the ends. Does that make any sense to you?
__________________
I am looking for other websites; you suck. -banned buttercake aficionado yuno44907
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2018, 01:46 AM   #115
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 39,114
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Ok, I don't seem to be getting my point across. Let me try rephrasing. Please set aside whatever you might think about my comments for a moment and consider this:

Like most people who are..well...alive, I am aware of POC suffering race-based abuses, large and small. Large being the Ferguson PD, small being the almost subliminal 'you don't belong' messages. By that I mean the friendly greeting and small talk I get from a cashier, who flatly just says the amount due to the black guy in front of me. I get that. All of it. In fact, if you asked the most militant cross-burning Klansman if racism exists, he would also agree (tempered with a 'but they deserve it' or something). With me so far?

Now, most of the time when the more subtle 'drip drip drip' racism is going down, the cameras will not be rolling. So when the cameras do catch something, however weak, the Tumblr/SJW crowd pounces on it. That's where these threads come in. The issue is not trying to explain away the individual cases, like lung cancer in cigarette smokers. The issue is that the threads that have been captured on video and posted are not representative of the problem. So what, you ask? Well, let's assume that there is some imbecile out there who is on the fence about whether racism exists. I know, implausible stupidity, but please humor me. They read one of these LWB threads. Say, Mowing the Lawn While Black. What would their takeaway be? Honestly, now. They would likely say, 'wait, you call that racism? My kids had the neighborhood get-off-my-lawn crazy lady call the cops on them twice this year. If this is what is considered racism, then racism is not a thing'. And this is what I keep posting about: these well-meaning SJW's are shooting themselves in the foot by churning up a Twitter frenzy about these piss-poor examples. Racist behavior is going to end up being dismissed as whining about everyday BS, and that is counterproductive to the ends. Does that make any sense to you?
I'm sorry but I think you're projecting. I also think that the blatant bigots aren't going to be swayed, but the willfully ignorant may be.

Do you realize the effect that these representative events have on people, on the culture.

> The Civil Rights marchers facing down fire hoses, riot clubs and police dogs?
> "The Whole World is Watching" peace demonstrations and Grant Park police riots?
> The fighting of the Vietnam War on the Six O'Clock News?
> The Rodney King tape?

Public opinion. Anecdotal evidence. Emotional heartstring pulling.

There are people out there who are swayed by lying racist memes and fake news (The Knockout Game comes to mind). My introduction to our most famous (infamous) white supremacist on these forum was because he was spreading ******** lies promulgated by a bigot from WND, loosely sub-titled "N-words behaving badly".

If one of these incidents sways a few more people away from the Fox News Constant-cast? I'm fine with it. I'll read the studies, too. I read the Pentagon Papers and the Warren Commission Report. I know two ivory tower academics who were swayed by by the Pentagon Papers. I know and know of hundreds who were swayed by the ARVN Colonel blowing that prisoner's brains out.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2018, 02:47 AM   #116
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 11,290
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So how can systemic racism exist when it has no effect on any interaction on the supposed victims day to day lives that it supposedly hurts?
There's a difference between systemic racism having no effect on any specific interaction and us not being able to tell which interactions it's having an effect on.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2018, 03:19 AM   #117
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 11,290
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Look, these videos aren't showing us anything we don't already know. What the videos do, however, is put a face on what we know and starkly illustrate just how horrible it is to be on the receiving end. This stuff really happens and here is exactly what it looks like. The existence of racism in a significant portion of our population is uncontroversial. What racism actually looks like in everyday life is, to me anyway, shocking.

ETA: These are human beings being treated in deplorable ways . . . people like me. It's *********** heartbreaking is what it is.
I think other people have been making this point but you're the first one to say it in a way that it made sense to me.

If the idea isn't that these videos demonstrate that racism happens, but rather that they paint a picture of what it looks like when it's happening, that's different from how I was originally seeing them. It's not about trying to present an argument about the extent of the problem of racism, which these videos can't really do simply by the nature of being anecdotes, but rather that when we look at the statistics that demonstrate the problem of racism what we're seeing is the summation of these sorts of attitudes played out en mass. The point isn't even whether or not any particular video is an actual example of racism, the point is that the racist incidents are happening and this is what they look like.

If that's the case I think I agree with everyone. Next let's all just admit we agree with each other.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2018, 05:47 AM   #118
The Greater Fool
Illuminator
 
The Greater Fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA, North America, Earth, Sol, Milky Way
Posts: 3,594
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
... The issue is that the threads that have been captured on video and posted are not representative of the problem. So what, you ask?
No, I don't ask "so what?" I respond that no individual event is representative of the whole. There is no such event. This event isn't what all racism looks like, it's what this event looks like. It's how racism sometimes rears it's ugly face.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Well, let's assume that there is some imbecile out there who is on the fence about whether racism exists. I know, implausible stupidity, but please humor me. They read one of these LWB threads. Say, Mowing the Lawn While Black. What would their takeaway be? Honestly, now. They would likely say, 'wait, you call that racism? My kids had the neighborhood get-off-my-lawn crazy lady call the cops on them twice this year. If this is what is considered racism, then racism is not a thing'. And this is what I keep posting about: these well-meaning SJW's are shooting themselves in the foot by churning up a Twitter frenzy about these piss-poor examples. Racist behavior is going to end up being dismissed as whining about everyday BS, and that is counterproductive to the ends. Does that make any sense to you?
You start with "we're trying to convince people who are on the fence" and claim they don't exist, so sure, trying to convince no one of something is unproductive. So, perhaps it's something different?

There are, however, people out there that just don't realize the every day nature of these events. They don't get the drip, drip, drip of it. They don't get that it's on the edge in a way that it can be explained away as something else, not that it isn't also something else. Showing them the drips, what this sort of thing looks like, makes a difference. It makes people who care more aware that even though it may look like that thing that happened to them a couple years ago, this thing happens to people of color over and over and over.

These discussions are also useful for those people. Good people see how other good people explain the drips away as something common, that happens to everyone. But, they don't happen to everyone over and over and over, only to people of color. Perhaps they connect to something visceral in a particular situation that brings home the problem for them. Perhaps people will realize they keep seeing the same excuses over and over and over, then realize that they may actually be part of the problem, by NOT getting involved like they did when the n* word was being tossed about.
__________________
- "Who is the Greater Fool? The fool? Or the one arguing with the Fool?" [Various; Uknown]
- "The only way to win is not to play." [Tsig quoting 'War Games']
The Greater Fool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2018, 07:27 AM   #119
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 14,905
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
If the idea isn't that these videos demonstrate that racism happens, but rather that they paint a picture of what it looks like when it's happening, that's different from how I was originally seeing them. It's not about trying to present an argument about the extent of the problem of racism, which these videos can't really do simply by the nature of being anecdotes, but rather that when we look at the statistics that demonstrate the problem of racism what we're seeing is the summation of these sorts of attitudes played out en mass. The point isn't even whether or not any particular video is an actual example of racism, the point is that the racist incidents are happening and this is what they look like.

There's a bit more to it, but yes, that's the essential core of what I and others have been saying.

That's the truly shocking part of understanding racism in this country, and others. Not the standout, egregious incidents, but the sheer petty, mundane, commonplace nature of how racism is expressed. Not the big "storms" like the nazi marches and white guys shooting up black churches, but the slow steady dripping the erodes the bedrock and slowly reshapes the landscape to to the point it becomes difficult to tell where an interaction is shaped by racism, or where it's shaped by other forces, and how much of each is present, without being able to see where it fits into the whole landscape of interactions.

Our socio-political landscape in this country (and many others) has been so heavily shaped by over two centuries of racism and xenophobia that it's difficult to separate it all out, and saying that one particular incident isn't racist but is something else not only cannot be done definitively (no one is that psychic), but attempting to do so entirely misses the point.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2018, 07:39 AM   #120
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,341
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Now, most of the time when the more subtle 'drip drip drip' racism is going down, the cameras will not be rolling. So when the cameras do catch something, however weak, the Tumblr/SJW crowd pounces on it. That's where these threads come in. The issue is not trying to explain away the individual cases, like lung cancer in cigarette smokers. The issue is that the threads that have been captured on video and posted are not representative of the problem. So what, you ask? Well, let's assume that there is some imbecile out there who is on the fence about whether racism exists. I know, implausible stupidity, but please humor me. They read one of these LWB threads. Say, Mowing the Lawn While Black. What would their takeaway be? Honestly, now. They would likely say, 'wait, you call that racism? My kids had the neighborhood get-off-my-lawn crazy lady call the cops on them twice this year. If this is what is considered racism, then racism is not a thing'. And this is what I keep posting about: these well-meaning SJW's are shooting themselves in the foot by churning up a Twitter frenzy about these piss-poor examples. Racist behavior is going to end up being dismissed as whining about everyday BS, and that is counterproductive to the ends. Does that make any sense to you?
Funny enough, the first place I see each and every one of these? Black Twitter. And like any other racial group, there are a wide variety of people involved - journalists, activists, podcasters, hoteps, and some folks that just flat-out hate white people - but nobody who calls themself an "SJW". And each time, there are elements that push things firmly out of "Ge,, is this actually racist?" and into the "Yep, we're sure, who is this idiot, find their names, get them fired." Calling the cops on people doing what everyone else does, some clown spewing racial slurs and ignoring evidence in front of them, things like that. This is all 101-level racism.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:55 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.