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Old 11th July 2018, 05:35 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...nope. You are not getting the arguments right.
Elaborate please.
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Old 11th July 2018, 05:42 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Elaborate please.
...who is asking kali1137 to be "up in arms" about this?
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Old 11th July 2018, 05:50 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...who is asking kali1137 to be "up in arms" about this?
That's it? That's your whole objection?

I was expecting something more substantive. Oh well.
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Old 11th July 2018, 05:52 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's it? That's your whole objection?
...nope.

Quote:
I was expecting something more substantive. Oh well.
I'd say I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I'm really not. Oh well.
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Old 11th July 2018, 05:57 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
.... But did they even consider giving the role to a trans actor? Or did they just want the big-name draw?
So was SJ auditioned for the role or did she choose it and convince a studio/investors to finance it? Some movies are star vehicles; this might be one of them. If she plays it like Theron did in Monster, it might be a good one.
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:00 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...I'm not sure what this has to do with my point. But as you are relying on your recollection (which is from some decades ago and may be wrong) please, by all means, feel free to look it up for yourself and share with us what you find.
If she didn't self-identify as a man then she was not a trans person therefore your argument's starting premise is falsified.
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:01 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...nope.
If you're not interested in expressing your viewpoint in a way that can be understood by others, why are you even here?
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:01 AM   #88
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We had a bit of a furor here with the local “Muny Opera” production of The King And I. Some (apparently) Burmese folks were offended that a white female was hired to play one of the “King’s” daughters. (I don’t recall anyone complaining that the lead role was not ethnically correct, or that Anna was not English..)

This led me to wonder if any actual Burmese actors had auditioned, or if there were any at all even available.

Much of this seems very recent; I don’t recall much comment about Joel Gray playing a Korean martial-arts master in “Remo Williams” or Sidney Toler playing the Chinese “Charlie Chan”.
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:02 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Which one is she supposed to be playing? If it is the one on the right, then no problem. If it is the one on the left, then that is stretching artistic license to breaking point.
Gill is the one on the left, the person on the right is I believe her wife.
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:04 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You can do a lot with makeup etc.
Off the screen, Charlize Theron doesn't look much like Aileen Wuornos.

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I AGREE


ETA: It would probably have been much more difficult to make Aileen Wuornos give a convincing performance as Charlize Theron, but she wasn't a professional actress.
Yes that was a fantastic transformation, and the make-up was only part of it, that should have been an Oscar winning role. But they did share a similar physicality to begin with.
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:11 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yes that was a fantastic transformation, and the make-up was only part of it, that should have been an Oscar winning role.
Theron did win the Oscar for Monster. Or are you talking about the Oscar for Best Makeup?
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:14 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If she didn't self-identify as a man then she was not a trans person therefore your argument's starting premise is falsified.
...do you actually understand what my argument was?

Lets pretend (because it appears you have no interest in looking it up) that Jean Marie Gill didn't "identify as trans."

Does that suddenly mean that trans folk will magically start getting acting jobs as cis folk?

My premise isn't falsified. Trans folk don't get acting jobs as cis folk, they barely get acting jobs as trans folks. That was my premise.
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:16 AM   #93
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Pretending to be something you aren't is literally what 'acting' is.

If you want to argue that the film/TV industry should hire more of a certain demographic have at it. Arguing that it's wrong for a member of Demographic X to play Demographic Y on some sort of moral level is not the same thing.
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:20 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If you're not interested in expressing your viewpoint in a way that can be understood by others, why are you even here?
...what part of "nope" did you struggle to understand?

This may help.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nope

To clarify: no, "who is asking kali1137 to be "up in arms" about this" was not the only thing I objected to. I hope that clears things up for you.
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:22 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Gill was a woman who dressed somewhat masculine for the time, she was also a lesbian, from what I recollect of her story (which is from some decades ago so my memory may be wrong) she did not self-identify as a man?
Except for the whole using male names and pronouns. See the original post, it specifically says he went by mr. Gill. Not Ms Gill.

But reading the original post is too hard I guess.
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:26 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If she didn't self-identify as a man then she was not a trans person therefore your argument's starting premise is falsified.
Ah the world pre google and everything a click away.

All the articles I can find on the internet are all either obviously cribbed from one obiturary from 2003 or are about Gill from a modern perspective.

I suspect that any article I read about them will be in some long gone magazine or perhaps book.

My recollection is that she referred to herself as woman not as a man, but back then her appearance and character caused a lot of confusion for other people (akin to hippies having long hair being viewed as feminine in the 60s and 70s). I've known and know lesbians that are still considered "butch" because they "dress like men" or aren't "conventionally feminine" yet not one of them would self-identify as being a man.


If anyone could dig out some older article/book/interview about Gill I think it would be really interesting to read about how they did self-identify.

One thing I can say is that I'll probably end up watching the movie as their life was quite astonishing.
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:28 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Except for the whole using male names and pronouns. See the original post, it specifically says he went by mr. Gill. Not Ms Gill.

But reading the original post is too hard I guess.
That may not be correct it's the pronouns they used that we don't know.
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:30 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Theron did win the Oscar for Monster. Or are you talking about the Oscar for Best Makeup?
It was a badly worded attempt at a joke, I'll refrain trying again, jokes that need several attempts tend not to be very funny!
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:35 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's it? That's your whole objection?

I was expecting something more substantive. Oh well.
After the first reply I was not expecting any sort of clarification or explanation. The whole premise to me is silly considering what acting is. And wow what a revelation that acting jobs are hard to come by in the first place, and certainly harder for a special group of people who will only fill or try certain roles. The basic argument against Scarlett is that life isn't fair and she gets all the breaks.
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:37 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...do you actually understand what my argument was?

Lets pretend (because it appears you have no interest in looking it up) that Jean Marie Gill didn't "identify as trans."

Does that suddenly mean that trans folk will magically start getting acting jobs as cis folk?

My premise isn't falsified. Trans folk don't get acting jobs as cis folk, they barely get acting jobs as trans folks. That was my premise.
Your argument was that since it is to be a movie about a trans person therefore a trans person should at least get the chance to audition it, your words:
....So when a multi-million dollar movie gets announced about the life of Jean Marie Gill and its one of the very rare opportunities for trans folk to get a leading role its *********** **** that they don't even get the chance to audition. Its not that its "insensitive." Its that its a *********** **** thing to do. If trans folk don't get cast as cis folk and if trans folk can't even get cast as trans folk then what opportunities are there out there for trans-folk-actors?....
That argument is predicated on Gill identifying as a trans person, because otherwise it doesn't make sense to say "can't get cast as a trans folk".

Now they may well have self-identified as a trans person or a man, it's just as I said I have a recollection about her story from decades ago and I think she self-identified as being a lesbian and a woman.

But happy to be shown to be wrong, indeed more than happy as I'd love to read more about their life again.
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Old 11th July 2018, 07:00 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...what part of "nope" did you struggle to understand?

This may help.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nope

To clarify: no, "who is asking kali1137 to be "up in arms" about this" was not the only thing I objected to. I hope that clears things up for you.
Yes, I know that. That was, in fact, the point of my response. You have other objections, but you won't say what they are. You are not effectively making yourself understood. Either you're really bad at this whole communication thing, or you're just playing a different game.
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Old 11th July 2018, 07:07 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Your argument was that since it is to be a movie about a trans person therefore a trans person should at least get the chance to audition it, your words:
....So when a multi-million dollar movie gets announced about the life of Jean Marie Gill and its one of the very rare opportunities for trans folk to get a leading role its *********** **** that they don't even get the chance to audition. Its not that its "insensitive." Its that its a *********** **** thing to do. If trans folk don't get cast as cis folk and if trans folk can't even get cast as trans folk then what opportunities are there out there for trans-folk-actors?....
...no, my argument was not your paraphrase, but the words that I actually said. I didn't argue that "since it is to be a movie about a trans person therefore a trans person should at least get the chance to audition it." It was a rare opportunity for trans folk to get a leading role, even if that role was the life of a person who didn't identify as trans folk.

And trans folk can barely get cast as trans folk. Jeffery Tambor. Elle Fanning. Jared Leto. Eddie Redmayne. Matt Bomer. Scarlett Johansson. All of those things I said are true.

My premise isn't predicated on your pedantic point. Because your entire point is predicated on a memory: a memory that you cannot confirm with cites, and that you admit could be wrong.

Quote:
That argument is predicated on Gill identifying as a trans person, because otherwise it doesn't make sense to say "can't get cast as a trans folk".
But they can't get cast as trans folk. And they can't get cast as cis folk. So it doesn't matter if Gill identified as a trans person or not. Because either way a trans person wasn't going to get cast.

Quote:
Now they may well have self-identified as a trans person or a man, it's just as I said I have a recollection about her story from decades ago and I think she self-identified as being a lesbian and a woman.
Are you sure you had a recollection? Are you sure you are sure?

Quote:
But happy to be shown to be wrong, indeed more than happy as I'd love to read more about their life again.
That really isn't how it works. You can't falsify my premise with a vague recollection of something that you concede might be wrong.
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Old 11th July 2018, 07:13 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But they did share a similar physicality to begin with.

Now, I don't know if this was also a joke, but, no, they didn't, which is why Theron was wearing prosthetics for the part.
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Old 11th July 2018, 07:17 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yes, I know that.
...well isn't that grand.

Quote:
That was, in fact, the point of my response. You have other objections, but you won't say what they are.
"I was expecting something more substantive. Oh well." was a rude, dismissive post to what was my genuine response. I could have chosen to elaborate, but why bother when I'm not convinced you will take anything I say in good faith?

kali1137's statement: "So if I am getting these arguments right, because there are in fact many Native American actors available, the parts should never go to "white folk" and when they do I should be up in arms about it?" is a strawman. Nobody is demanding that "you" get up in arms. That is a substantive point. What people are arguing for is much more nuanced than this.
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Old 11th July 2018, 07:34 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...no, my argument was not your paraphrase, but the words that I actually said. I didn't argue that "since it is to be a movie about a trans person therefore a trans person should at least get the chance to audition it." It was a rare opportunity for trans folk to get a leading role, even if that role was the life of a person who didn't identify as trans folk.

...snip...
Thanks for rewording what you said - I'm sure you can see how your initial wording caused confusion.

Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post

My premise isn't predicated on your pedantic point. Because your entire point is predicated on a memory: a memory that you cannot confirm with cites, and that you admit could be wrong.
I am surprised that you consider how someone self-identifies is a "pedantic" point. For me how a person chooses to self-identify goes to the heart of a person's identity as a person rather than a label.

Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post

...snip...

Are you sure you had a recollection? Are you sure you are sure?

...snip...
Yes I am certain I have a recollection.

Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post

...snip...
That really isn't how it works. You can't falsify my premise with a vague recollection of something that you concede might be wrong.
At the moment neither you nor I know how they self-identified, sadly the only online article before this current story is the obituary that many of the new articles cribbed from. And in that obiturary it doesn't tell us about how self-identified.

As I said I'd really like to know more about their story but it appears much will be pre-internet so would rely on folk finding paper books and other hardcopy.
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Old 11th July 2018, 07:51 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I am surprised that you consider how someone self-identifies is a "pedantic" point.
...I don't consider "how someone self-identifies" to be a pedantic point. I'm glad I could clear that up!

Quote:
For me how a person chooses to self-identify goes to the heart of a person's identity as a person rather than a label.
Which has nothing to do with my point.

Quote:
Yes I am certain I have a recollection.
Which you concede might be wrong.

Quote:
At the moment neither you nor I know how they self-identified, sadly the only online article before this current story is the obituary that many of the new articles cribbed from. And in that obiturary it doesn't tell us about how self-identified.
But my premise isn't dependent on how they chose to self-identify. Your premise is. Your premise has nothing to do with my premise. Hence:

Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...I'm not sure what this has to do with my point.
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Old 11th July 2018, 07:57 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...I don't consider "how someone self-identifies" to be a pedantic point. I'm glad I could clear that up!
...snip....
My point is about how someone self-identifies you claimed my point was pedantic.
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Old 11th July 2018, 08:01 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
My point is about how someone self-identifies you claimed my point was pedantic.
...this was your pedantic point:

"If she didn't self-identify as a man then she was not a trans person therefore your argument's starting premise is falsified."

Not just about "how someone self-identifies" but "how someone self-identifies falsifies my premise."
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Old 11th July 2018, 08:11 AM   #109
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Another vote that actors are always playing at being something they are not, so what's the difference. I've seen actors portray murderers and aliens. What kind of authenticity SAG credentials are being demanded?

Plus, she can play whoever she wants. If it hurts her career, her choice.
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Old 11th July 2018, 08:15 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Another vote that actors are always playing at being something they are not, so what's the difference. I've seen actors portray murderers and aliens. What kind of authenticity SAG credentials are being demanded?
Agreed. Like I said what do people think acting is?

Again if someone wants to argue that the TV/Film industry should be hiring more Blacks/Gays/Women/Trans/etc... fine.

But don't turn into some sort of moral argument where "pretending to be what you are not" is a sin when that's literally the definition of the job.
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Old 11th July 2018, 08:34 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
It was a rare opportunity for trans folk to get a leading role, even if that role was the life of a person who didn't identify as trans folk.
If we're not talking about trans roles, then every project is an opportunity for trans folk to get a leading role.

But in reality, the vast majority of movies aren't opportunities at all for the vast majority of actors. Scarlett Johansson didn't fly into Hollywood one afternoon and get hired as a leading lady who can pick her own projects.

Show me an actor - trans, cis, muppet, I don't care - who's at Johansson's level in the industry, and I'll show you an actor who can maybe claim that this project is an opportunity they should have.
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Old 11th July 2018, 08:43 AM   #112
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I would like to see a Hollywood remake of White Chicks, casting white chicks in the roles of the two black guys!

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Old 11th July 2018, 08:50 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Another vote that actors are always playing at being something they are not, so what's the difference. I've seen actors portray murderers and aliens. What kind of authenticity SAG credentials are being demanded?

Plus, she can play whoever she wants. If it hurts her career, her choice.
Society has placed certain limits on this. It's in poor taste for a white actor to portray a black person.
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Old 11th July 2018, 08:50 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I would like to see a Hollywood remake of White Chicks, casting white chicks in the roles of the two black guys!

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I like it they are wearing makeup when the characters are not wearing makeup and are not when the characters are. Genius.

Can we get a remake of Soul Man with a black actor in white face pretending to be a white man in black face?
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Old 11th July 2018, 08:56 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Society has placed certain limits on this. It's in poor taste for a white actor to portray a black person.
That's a matter of practically, not morality.

I'd have no issue with a white actor playing a black character through mocap or makeup that was realistic and not "blackface" parody.

Cloud Atlas, for instance, did something along those lines and was entirely non-offensive in my opinion.

Yeah Al Jolson on stage in blackface doing the "Mammy" routine was bad. Minstrel acts were bad. A lot of the old crossdressing jokes that used to be so common in comedy... at the most charitable have not aged well.

But that doesn't forever taint all cross-demographic acting of any kind for all time.
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:02 AM   #116
dann
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I like it they are wearing makeup when the characters are not wearing makeup and are not when the characters are. Genius.

Can we get a remake of Soul Man with a black actor in white face pretending to be a white man in black face?

There's an excellent French anti-racist (!) comedy, Salsa, with a white Frenchman pretending to be a black Cuban, but all the black Cubans are played by ... actual Afro-Cubans!

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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:03 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That's a matter of practically, not morality.
There's a stigma around blackface. It's not just a practical matter


Quote:
I'd have no issue with a white actor playing a black character through mocap or makeup that was realistic and not "blackface" parody.

Cloud Atlas, for instance, did something along those lines and was entirely non-offensive in my opinion.

Yeah Al Jolson on stage in blackface doing the "Mammy" routine was bad. Minstrel acts were bad. A lot of the old crossdressing jokes that used to be so common in comedy... at the most charitable have not aged well.

But that doesn't forever taint all cross-demographic acting of any kind for all time.
And there was Robert Downey Jr in Tropic Thunder. But comedies can sometimes get away with social taboos.

Did any trans people audition for the part, or did it go straight to Johanssen?
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:06 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...this was your pedantic point:

"If she didn't self-identify as a man then she was not a trans person therefore your argument's starting premise is falsified."

Not just about "how someone self-identifies" but "how someone self-identifies falsifies my premise."
As I said my point is about how someone self-identifies, I'm glad that you have changed your mind and no longer consider that to be a pedantic point.
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:16 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Did any trans people audition for the part, or did it go straight to Johanssen?
Did they audition any people with ASL to portray Stephen Hawking before they settled on Cumberbatch? Did they audition any blind people before settling on Jamie Fox for Ray Charles? Did they audition any Germans or Polish actors for Oskar Schindler and Itzhak Stern before deciding on Irish Liam Neeson and ... incredibly complicated ethnic background Ben Kingsley?

Other then this idea that there's some distinct difference between your characteristics and your "identity" I don't see the difference.
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:26 AM   #120
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Reminds me of an interview with James Patterson (an author I dislike very much, but he had this point): "People ask me how I can write about a black man, since I am a white man. I write about serial killers all the time, and no one questions my experience with that."
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