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Old 11th July 2018, 09:40 AM   #1
rlopez2
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Itís The Other Way Around: Central American Immigrants Arenít Invading us ...

Itís The Other Way Around: Central American Immigrants Arenít Invading Us. We Invaded Them ...

indypendent org 2018 07 its-the-other-way-around

excellent piece trying to shed some light into gringos' moral blind spots

I would have emphasized a bit more, that Jacobo Ńrbenz

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobo_Ńrbenz

("Red Jacobo" as he was officially being called at the time by USG) wasn't even any kind of threat to U.S. corporations in any way. He wanted very little, just subsistence level farming, for his people, but, of course, how could "great America" put up with that?!

It is all based on some sort of Nazi "Lebensraum" doctrine called in the U.S. "the Monroe Doctrine" ("America for 'Americans'", which with they mean and seem to wholeheartedly believe: "we actually own the whole continent"):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine

which was "freedom lovingly" and very concretely (not philosophically) championed by the "great, nice and true" U.S. President "Teddy" Roosevelt.

As Tarleton suggests in that article we should thank Trump and his cabinet for being honest about their own shameless statements, even if very partially and very selectively so. As they have publicly said (trying to give it a "good Christian" spin to it): "what sort of people would dump their children in the U.S. border?" At the end of the day those explicit performances do way less harm than those of "cool" Obama.

I think gringos can only speak, think in "short sentences" about those and many other problems, because they simply can't look at the whole picture.

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Old 11th July 2018, 09:48 AM   #2
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For those of you who are having trouble following the argument, and don't want to bother stitching together the indypendent.org URL, rlopez is essentially announcing his recent discovery of the Monroe Doctrine and the history of US meddling in the Americas. Most of you are probably already familiar with these topics, as they have been an ongoing controversy for many decades now.
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Old 11th July 2018, 10:06 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by rlopez2 View Post
I think gringos can only speak, think in "short sentences" about those and many other problems, because they simply can't look at the whole picture.

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Old 11th July 2018, 11:55 AM   #4
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RE: the indypendent.org URL . . .

https://indypendent.org/2018/07/its-...er-way-around/
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:08 PM   #5
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Yes, itís an interesting story. The young Ernesto (not yet Che) Guevara was in Guatemala at the time and saw the USA replace an elected president with a dictator. A similar thing happened in Iran in 1953 and in in Chile in 1973. It's a long tradition: U.S. involvement in regime change (Wikipedia).

Quote:
As 1954 progressed, a mood of crisis pervaded the country as US destabilisation efforts began to bear bitter fruit. On June 18, a band of oligarchic mercenaries armed and directed by the CIA entered the country. Led by Colonel Castillo Armas, they were supported by US warplanes, which strafed and bombed civilian areas to sow panic and terror.
By the end of the month, Arbenz was overthrown and replaced by the dictatorship of Colonel Castillo Armas. The circumstances surrounding the collapse of the Arbenz regime was the pivotal moment in Guevara's political development.
Guatemala: The coup that radicalised Che Guevara (green-left weekly, May 30, 2014)
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Old 11th July 2018, 03:26 PM   #6
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All they had to do was let United Fruit do whatever they want and they might still have democracy.
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Old 11th July 2018, 03:36 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
All they had to do was let United Fruit do whatever they want and they might still have democracy.
Guatemala does have democracy, Travis.
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Old 11th July 2018, 05:23 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Guatemala does have democracy, Travis.

Not as pithy sounding to name the exceptions.
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Old 11th July 2018, 05:31 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Not as pithy sounding to name the exceptions.
All the countries in the Americas have democracy, Travis.

Except maybe Venezuela.
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:13 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
All they had to do was let United Fruit do whatever they want and they might still have democracy.
Um... they never really *wanted* democracy. It's been forced down their throats by the US imperialism and unfettered corporate greed.
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Old 12th July 2018, 12:00 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
All the countries in the Americas have democracy, Travis.

Except maybe Venezuela.

Those coups were just the will of the people!
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Old 12th July 2018, 12:45 AM   #12
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gringos? lol!
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Old 12th July 2018, 01:34 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Those coups were just the will of the people!
According to the linked article, at least one of them (Honduras 2009) was the will of Nobel Peace Prize Winner Barack Obama:

Quote:
For once in its long, oligarchical history, Honduras had a president that was doing something for the people. Honduran elites and U.S. hawks found Zelaya intolerable. In June 2009, he was overthrown in a coup with the tacit support of the Obama administration, and was spirited into exile in the middle of the night.
Now, faced with this point you have two options:

1. Wonder Obama was just another imperialist American president.

or

2. Wonder if this article is a bunch of BS.

I'm going with Door #2. The history sounds like it was cribbed from Howard Zinn.
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Old 12th July 2018, 03:14 AM   #14
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On the one hand:

Quote:
Soon after the coup, U.S. President Barack Obama stated: "We believe that the coup was not legal and that President Zelaya remains the president of Honduras, the democratically elected president there." He stated: "It would be a terrible precedent if we start moving backwards into the era in which we are seeing military coups as a means of political transition, rather than democratic elections." Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, however, equivocated, saying that "We do think that this has evolved into a coup" and noting that under U.S. law, officially declaring a coup would oblige the U.S. to cut off most foreign aid to Honduras." Cutting off aid was seen as a possibility in the days after the coup, and State Department Director of Policy Planning Anne-Marie Slaughter urged Clinton to "take bold action" and to "find that [the] coup was a 'military coup' under U.S. law." Nevertheless, Clinton did not do so, and the U.S. never formally declared that a coup had occurred. By November 2009, the U.S. "focused on pushing for elections" in the country. In September 2009, the Board of the U.S. Millennium Challenge Corporation, headed by Clinton, cut off $11 million in aid to the Honduran government in the wake of the coup, and suspended another $4 million in planned contributions to a road project.
2009 Honduran coup d’etat (Wikipedia)

On the other hand:

Quote:
From 2009 to mid-2016, however, the U.S. provided about $200 million in military and police aid to Honduras, a controversial decision given the violence in Honduras and the government's human rights violations.
2009 Honduran coup d’etat (Wikipedia)

But, yes, Obama was just another imperialist American president. (But he wasn't a racist, a sexist or a narcissist.)


ETA: Putsch in Honduras
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 12th July 2018, 06:30 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Those coups were just the will of the people!
Of course. How else would they all have gotten democracy?
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Old 13th July 2018, 10:48 AM   #16
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RE: The history sounds like it was cribbed from Howard Zinn.

What is so wrong with Howard Zinn, anyway?

Stephen Kinzer was just a "good 'American' fellow" serving as a reporter in Guatemala, where he learned pretty fast that "he didn't seem to be in Kansas anymore at all", learned the language of the people, humanely related to them as an equal (the best he could) . . . that experience and his solid sense of humanity, right-vs.-wrong, turned his masterful writing abilities and sharp mind into a harsh, intelligent and uncompromising critic of of the excesses and abuses of USG's foreign policies. I have read three of his books, so far:

// __ All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror

Paperback: 296 pages
ISBN-10: 047018549X
~
// __ Overthrow: America's Century of Regime Change from Hawaii to Iraq

Paperback: 416 pages
ISBN-10: 0805082409
~
// __ The Brothers: John Foster Dulles, Allen Dulles, and Their Secret World War

Paperback: 416 pages
ISBN-10: 1250053129
~
He asks himself (his readers) the same questions throughout his writings: What is this all about? Why do we do this?

This is one of the things I have never understood about gringos, why do they need to compulsively mess with every self-moving thing in the Universe? For example, I don't like "communism" (and to gringos it would be just free medical and schooling of the people, so are the French, the Finnish, Germans, Canadians . . . "communists"?), but if that, say, is the way for Haitian people to start having stable forms of governments, a stable society and hopefully democracies, why messing with it? But as some gringo colorfully put it: Aristide was "a black guy, speaking French and trying to turn Haiti into another Cuba" . . .

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Old 13th July 2018, 11:05 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Guatemala does have democracy, Travis.
Not really a functioning one, though. (please note my location).
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Old 13th July 2018, 11:10 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
According to the linked article, at least one of them (Honduras 2009) was the will of Nobel Peace Prize Winner Barack Obama:



Now, faced with this point you have two options:

1. Wonder Obama was just another imperialist American president.

or

2. Wonder if this article is a bunch of BS.

I'm going with Door #2. The history sounds like it was cribbed from Howard Zinn.
The US's record in Central America is not a good one..the period of the Banana Wars is impossible to justify......but that article is pure Marxist B.S.
Hey, I blame Cortez and Pizarro....
THis crap is a mindless and dogmatic as anything we hear from the lips of Trump. And that is just about thw worst thing I can say about anything.
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Last edited by dudalb; 13th July 2018 at 11:16 AM.
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Old 13th July 2018, 11:17 AM   #19
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As a Gringo talking to a Beaner, let me remind you that it is not good to use racial epithets.

Your racism shows when you lump all Caucasians into one mass, that is exactly "prejudging", the base of "prejudism".

Here in Southern California, the most racist people I know are Mexicans. Above is an example. Now they are the majority in California. Blacks and Whites are going to have to from a coalition to keep the racism in check.
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Old 13th July 2018, 11:17 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by rlopez2 View Post
RE: The history sounds like it was cribbed from Howard Zinn.

What is so wrong with Howard Zinn, anyway?

Stephen Kinzer was just a "good 'American' fellow" serving as a reporter in Guatemala, where he learned pretty fast that "he didn't seem to be in Kansas anymore at all", learned the language of the people, humanely related to them as an equal (the best he could) . . . that experience and his solid sense of humanity, right-vs.-wrong, turned his masterful writing abilities and sharp mind into a harsh, intelligent and uncompromising critic of of the excesses and abuses of USG's foreign policies. I have read three of his books, so far:

// __ All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror

Paperback: 296 pages
ISBN-10: 047018549X
~
// __ Overthrow: America's Century of Regime Change from Hawaii to Iraq

Paperback: 416 pages
ISBN-10: 0805082409
~
// __ The Brothers: John Foster Dulles, Allen Dulles, and Their Secret World War

Paperback: 416 pages
ISBN-10: 1250053129
~
He asks himself (his readers) the same questions throughout his writings: What is this all about? Why do we do this?

This is one of the things I have never understood about gringos, why do they need to compulsively mess with every self-moving thing in the Universe? For example, I don't like "communism" (and to gringos it would be just free medical and schooling of the people, so are the French, the Finnish, Germans, Canadians . . . "communists"?), but if that, say, is the way for Haitian people to start having stable forms of governments, a stable society and hopefully democracies, why messing with it? But as some gringo colorfully put it: Aristide was "a black guy, speaking French and trying to turn Haiti into another Cuba" . . .

rlopez2
Free Medicine and Schooling?
Their ain't no such thing.
Somebody has to pay for it....
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Old 13th July 2018, 11:22 AM   #21
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[quote=rlopez2;12360755......., but if that, say, is the way for Haitian people to start having stable forms of governments, a stable society and hopefully democracies, why messing with it? But as some gringo colorfully put it: Aristide was "a black guy, speaking French and trying to turn Haiti into another Cuba" . . .

rlopez2[/QUOTE]

That is a good point. Like China and Vietnam becoming more Capitalist all the time. I guess we only lost there temporarily.

But how long will it take Russia?

Maybe it's a natural progession? Feudalism -> Communism -> Capitalism? (history majors can probaly fill in more steps, maybe the flow chart need divergent/reconverging paths?)
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Old 13th July 2018, 12:04 PM   #22
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Man, you think this thread is fun, check out the OP's thread in the Conspiracy Section....
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Old 13th July 2018, 01:12 PM   #23
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RE: Free Medicine and Schooling? Their ain't no such thing. Somebody has to pay for it....

yes, of course. I thought it was clear enough for everyone that I meant it was being paid for -socially- through people's taxes
~
RE: As a Gringo talking to a Beaner, let me remind you that it is not good to use racial epithets.

Probably, you need to improve your mind reading skills and also learn a bit more about how the term "gringo" is used (therefore its social meaning):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gringo

You will find from nothing really to very little racist connotations or, maybe, it is you projecting your racial anxieties on other people?

I don't have anything against "white" or any kind of people. Probably due to the fact that as some mischling myself I don't see reality through racial lenses in fact all those isms (including "patriotism" and all other political ones) are as *************** as watching TV. Those are concepts invented by our rulers to mess with us/the people.

I would admit however that I do have problems with just a few words/terms and one them is: "American" It kinds of feel link I am making fun of them if I were to use it. The direct association/exploitation of that term mainly politically, but also morally (gringos refer to something being wrong, base, hopelessly stupid, ... as being "unAmerican" ;-)) it creates way too much conscious dissonance in my mind. I am not political about words. I just don't use certain words myself, that is all there is to it.

The French could start calling themselves "the Europeans", but, of course, they couldn't stop everyone in Europe from making fun of them.
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RE: Maybe it's a natural progession? Feudalism -> Communism -> Capitalism?

I don't quite get what you see so "natural" or "progessive" about any of that, but one of the few things not relating to physical and technical reality that I am totally convinced about is that all those "isms" are (redacted adjective)
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Old 13th July 2018, 01:39 PM   #24
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RE: All the countries in the Americas have democracy . . .

I would say very few countries in the world are essentially based on democratic principles these days. "democracy" is nowadays an empty word misused by whomever feels like mentally abusing other people with diffusing terms. For example, here in the U.S. they have used "democracy" to thoroughly institute corruption and political secrecy for "National security" reasons, ... I think a good to explain what I mean would be: what the preposterous *** does USG care about "democracy"?

They care about making you believe that they do have some sort of higher humane ideals and about using "democracy" and, as they did with those WMD in Iraq, to mess with other people. I would admit they have been pretty successful with their "democratic" propaganda locally and abroad. Again, "have been" ;-)

"democracy" was an umbrella term used for all kinds of social technologies Athenians invented to make sense of themselves and be able to defend themselves against the hugely more powerful Persian empire. All those technologies were invented to socially and totally make politics as transparent and as direct as could be in those times (in fact, socially, it was an act of crazy desperation: "we either do this or we will be enslaved", there was little of that high flying intellect that we now associate with the Greeks nowadays). That was such a pressing issue to them that they seem to not have given a **** about letting "illegal" citizens vote and fully participate in the whole process.

Funny thing is that gringos nowadays see themselves as "democratic" when they are more like Persian empire was in those times, but well they like "theatrics".

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Old 14th July 2018, 08:29 AM   #25
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RE: "democracy"

one of those "democratic" jokes doing the rounds is when the Israeli government calls itself: "The region's only 'democracy'"!!!
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Old 14th July 2018, 12:51 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Man, you think this thread is fun, check out the OP's thread in the Conspiracy Section....
Whoa, that is some first-class wackiness on display. I had the idea something was up when I saw the comment comparing the Monroe Doctrine to the Nazi's Lebensraum excuse.
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Old 14th July 2018, 01:41 PM   #27
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RE: . . . the comment comparing the Monroe Doctrine to the Nazi's Lebensraum excuse

Well, Nazis also had their exceptionalism and they also, quite naturally, felt entitled to it. If you take the time to read about the history of your own country (written with excruciating details as Kinzer did) you won't see much of a difference, definitely not differences which matter, let me see:

* the U.S. was safely messing with "negritos" in "banana republics", while Nazi's went to look for their Lebensraum mainly in Russia (also in Europe), something never seen before by imperial powers

* the "Monroe doctrine" (as you funnily call it) predated the Nazi Lebensraum one in era and years

* Nazism (partially) came to power due to the abuses imposed on Germany after WWI and also the (very stupid, I would say) complex of inferiority German people had always had towards the rest of Europe. "Americans" were already superior to "negritos" and still are, right? So, what was the problem?
. . .
but do those "differences" matter much?

Of course, since you don't seem to like Howard Zinn, as you yourself stated, you most probably don't want to know about Kinzer's history books, in which he rewinds for you exactly the moment in history in which the U.S. chose to become an imperial power and he also shares his elaborations as to the reasons why. Read that book I won't spoil it for you. It is the history of your own country after all. I have read also quite a bit of German/European and old world cultures history as well.

I would say I have read/know much more about German history and also their history is "easier" to read, understand. There is this thing they call "Deutsche Sachlichkeit", which I have always loved. If you want to know what I mean, just visit a history museum in Germany and then one in the U.S., when I visited the Indian Museum in Indianapolis USA (I think it was): The whole museum was about how nice USG was when they let aboriginal people become U.S. citizens in the early 40's (because they needed them for the war), what good soldiers they were in WWII, . . . I asked girlfriend what kind of joke that was about and she told me (making all kinds of faces): "people don't actually see anything at all wrong with any of it" (I knew her well, so I knew she meant: "people are so thoroughly brainwashed that …"). Once I told "patriot" about such things and he told me after a few days (I am not kidding you): "If you go to the Vietnam veteran museum, you will see that U.S. soldiers were affected by the use of chemical weapons during that war ..."
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Old 14th July 2018, 01:58 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
All the countries in the Americas have democracy, Travis.

Except maybe Venezuela.

Yes, how nice of you to recognize the most recent election in Cuba (Wikipedia).
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th July 2018, 11:27 PM   #29
Brainster
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Originally Posted by rlopez2 View Post
RE: . . . the comment comparing the Monroe Doctrine to the Nazi's Lebensraum excuse

Well, Nazis also had their exceptionalism and they also, quite naturally, felt entitled to it. If you take the time to read about the history of your own country (written with excruciating details as Kinzer did) you won't see much of a difference, definitely not differences which matter, let me see:

* the U.S. was safely messing with "negritos" in "banana republics", while Nazi's went to look for their Lebensraum mainly in Russia (also in Europe), something never seen before by imperial powers
Do you even understand that Lebensraum means "living room" and not in the sense of an addition to a house? That the idea was that the superior German people needed more land, and the people living on that land had to go?

Now, compare that to the US and the banana republics. Did the US move people in, intent on colonizing the land? Did the US set up extermination camps to get rid of the indigenous people?

Quote:
* the "Monroe doctrine" (as you funnily call it) predated the Nazi Lebensraum one in era and years
Hard to see the funny part there; we do agree it's the Monroe Doctrine, right? And I agree that it predated the Nazi Lebensraun by well over a century.

Quote:
* Nazism (partially) came to power due to the abuses imposed on Germany after WWI
Abuses is a pretty strong word; are you talking about penalties? I would agree they were excessive, and that they played a part in the growth of Nazism.

Quote:
and also the (very stupid, I would say) complex of inferiority German people had always had towards the rest of Europe. "Americans" were already superior to "negritos" and still are, right? So, what was the problem?
. . .
but do those "differences" matter much?
I don't know for certain, but I suspect that the inferiority complex of the Germans at the time probably has something to do with them being a relative latecomer to the European stage.

Quote:
Of course, since you don't seem to like Howard Zinn, as you yourself stated, you most probably don't want to know about Kinzer's history books, in which he rewinds for you exactly the moment in history in which the U.S. chose to become an imperial power and he also shares his elaborations as to the reasons why. Read that book I won't spoil it for you. It is the history of your own country after all. I have read also quite a bit of German/European and old world cultures history as well.
The problem with Zinn and his ilk is that they tell as one-sided and biased a story as did the old-time historians with the fables about George Washington and the cherry tree.

Quote:
I would say I have read/know much more about German history and also their history is "easier" to read, understand. There is this thing they call "Deutsche Sachlichkeit", which I have always loved. If you want to know what I mean, just visit a history museum in Germany and then one in the U.S., when I visited the Indian Museum in Indianapolis USA (I think it was): The whole museum was about how nice USG was when they let aboriginal people become U.S. citizens in the early 40's (because they needed them for the war), what good soldiers they were in WWII, . . . I asked girlfriend what kind of joke that was about and she told me (making all kinds of faces): "people don't actually see anything at all wrong with any of it" (I knew her well, so I knew she meant: "people are so thoroughly brainwashed that Ö"). Once I told "patriot" about such things and he told me after a few days (I am not kidding you): "If you go to the Vietnam veteran museum, you will see that U.S. soldiers were affected by the use of chemical weapons during that war ..."
And in Germany? You make the contrast with American museums and then you fail to tell us about the German museums. Are they frank about the Holocaust?
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Old 14th July 2018, 11:47 PM   #30
dann
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Do you even understand that Lebensraum means "living room" and not in the sense of an addition to a house? That the idea was that the superior German people needed more land, and the people living on that land had to go?

Now, compare that to the US and the banana republics. Did the US move people in, intent on colonizing the land? Did the US set up extermination camps to get rid of the indigenous people?

Seriously? You never heard of reservations?

Quote:
Once it had gained the appropriate colonies, Germany could preserve its industrial excellence while shifting its dependence for food from the British-controlled sea lanes to its own imperial hinterland.
It was reassuring to Hitler that such an alteration of the world order, such a reglobalization, had been achieved before, in recent memory. For generations of German imperialists, and for Hitler himself, the exemplary land empire was the United States of America.
America taught Hitler that need blurred into desire, and that desire arose from comparison.
Hitlerís American Dream - The dictator modeled his racial campaign after another conquest of land and peopleóAmericaís Manifest Destiny. (Slate, Mar. 8, 2017)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old Today, 03:32 PM   #31
rlopez2
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RE: Do you even understand that Lebensraum means "living room" and not in the sense of an addition to a house?
I actually speak German (my German poems was even published). I went to school there, so I had to learn the language of the people. I think that I do understand the concept and its context very well:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum
there was absolutely nothing new in it. It is the same that all imperial powers were doing before with savage “negritos” in Africa, Asia and South America, from India to Philippines, Nicaragua, . . .
RE: Abuses is a pretty strong word; are you talking about penalties? I would agree they were excessive, and that they played a part in the growth of Nazism.
Actually, they were so excessive that even people who hated Germany to their guts became very much outspoken against it.
RE: And in Germany? You make the contrast with American museums and then you fail to tell us about the German museums. Are they frank about the Holocaust?
That is why I am suggesting to you to visit German museums, then you would understand what I mean. I could blab you about it, but I will not.
One of the most irrational bs I have ever know of is that Germany still pays the Israeli government some sort of reparations! What do current day Germans have to do with any of that? What do current day Jewish people have to do with those people in concentration camps? When it is more like the Israelies playin gNazis

RE: Hitler’s American Dream - The dictator modeled his racial campaign after another conquest of land and people—America’s Manifest Destiny. (Slate, Mar. 8, 2017)
Actually, Hitler himself was amazed wondering about how the British, the Spanish, the Dutch, the French, . . . were able to subjugate other people. Well, little mustache, smeared in braune Shceisse guy, all you need to do is send a ship pack with bombs there . . . Was that so hard to be understood?
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Old Today, 03:37 PM   #32
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Do try and master the quote function. It might make your posts slightly less incomprehensible.
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