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Old 10th August 2019, 04:43 PM   #81
Mumbles
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
While I get the concept, I’m uncomfortable with its broad application, because this sounds about the same as the rural south at that time. So I don’t see how growing up white trailer trash was any better. Crime, drugs, rampant sexual abuse, etc.

Privilege has more to do with means than race. The idea that all whites are privileged is an unfair stereotype.
You'd be surprised. Even middle and upper class black people are, in more recent times, often portrayed as out of control wild subhumans (see: Trayvon Martin), rather than at all sympathetic. Eg. Opioid crisis vs. Crack epidemic. Wanna see how black people were often seen back then? Look to the Central Park 5 - who weren't even all black, or in Central Park.

Regardless, I put them as questions because I'm fully aware that not every community had complete luxury, not as some accusatory gesture.
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Old 11th August 2019, 03:48 AM   #82
jimbob
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
While I get the concept, I’m uncomfortable with its broad application, because this sounds about the same as the rural south at that time. So I don’t see how growing up white trailer trash was any better. Crime, drugs, rampant sexual abuse, etc.

Privilege has more to do with means than race. The idea that all whites are privileged is an unfair stereotype.
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I can't find my post but there was relatively recently a study showing that even wealthy black families tended to lose their wealth after a couple of generations, whilst white families in the same income deciles stayed up.
Found the thread:

Below is the OP and first response:

Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Depressing NYT article showing that even the richest black families struggle to pass their wealth through the generations

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...black-men.html

For example:

Quote:
As this chart shows, a black man raised by two parents together in the 90th percentile — making around $140,000 a year — earns about the same in adulthood as a white man raised by a single mother making $60,000 alone.
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The companion piece, via Slate, documents and disputes many of the myths concerning the wealth gap - such as that black people do not value education (and that education can close the gap), the housing alone or entrepreneurship can close the gap, and that black people simply refuse to save money.
That strongly suggests that class is different for blacks compared to whites.

Wealth and class obviously play a large part, but then racial prejudice also seems to.

And this post from Tsukasa Buddha later on in that thread addresses most of the criticisms raised in the thread

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
This professor's (also Director of Harvard Inequality & Social Policy) conclusions from the paper (Twitter thread):

Quote:
3) After controlling for income, differences in family characteristics – including marriage rates, education and wealth – explain very little of the black-white income gap. 7/x

4) Racial wage gaps exist everywhere, even within narrowly defined geographic areas. In 99% of the neighborhoods in the US, black boys will earn less as adults than the white boys who grew up next to them. 8/x

In principle, racial wage gaps could exist even if employers are race-neutral, because black workers might have accumulated fewer skills due to “pre-market” discrimination (poorly funded schools, polluted drinking water, family stress etc..) 9/x

My conclusion - while Chetty and Hendren have not *proven* that labor market (rather than pre-market) discrimination against black men is a primary cause of racial inequality, they have pushed it into pole position. It is hard for me to see the facts any other way. 9/x

Finally, and most importantly – the fact that the black-white income gap is so large and persistent for men - but not for women - argues very strongly against any kind of genetic or innate ability-based explanation for racial wage gaps. 10/x

Black boys and girls obviously have common genes, and they have similar test scores throughout childhood. Yet outcomes are much worse for black men. Chetty and Hendren can’t nail down the exact causes, but they are clearly environmental. 11/x

In my humble opinion, these results put an empirical nail in the coffin of the “Bell Curve” (care to disagree @charlesmurray?). Based on these results, I see no plausible argument that racial wage gaps are caused by differences in innate ability. END THREAD 12/12
Racism seems pretty important, even to the wealthy.
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Old 11th August 2019, 09:37 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I can't find my post but there was relatively recently a study showing that even wealthy black families tended to lose their wealth after a couple of generations, whilst white families in the same income deciles stayed up.
That's an important thing to note (IIRC, I was aware of that), but it doesn't disagree with anything I wrote. If anything, it's a a great addition to it (if that's what you're trying to do, disregard all of this). Neither does any of the information included in your excellent follow up. Like I said, white privilege exists, I just think it's an incomplete way of understanding how people actually negotiate their social spaces. But then again, I'm an anthropologist and my innate impulse is always to understand experiences and trends at a more personal level (there's a reason intersectional theory has been more popular in anthropology for a while now). With how easily things get combative here, I just want to make it clear that we're fundamentally in agreement.
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Old 11th August 2019, 09:55 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
That's an important thing to note (IIRC, I was aware of that), but it doesn't disagree with anything I wrote. If anything, it's a a great addition to it (if that's what you're trying to do, disregard all of this). Neither does any of the information included in your excellent follow up. Like I said, white privilege exists, I just think it's an incomplete way of understanding how people actually negotiate their social spaces. But then again, I'm an anthropologist and my innate impulse is always to understand experiences and trends at a more personal level (there's a reason intersectional theory has been more popular in anthropology for a while now). With how easily things get combative here, I just want to make it clear that we're fundamentally in agreement.
Oh I certainly wasn't disagreeing with you. I was adding to, or illustrating the highlighted.

I wouldn't be surprised if location had a part to play too.

Incidentally, I'm a Brit (if my spelling hadn't given it away) and historically, there was* a lot of classism in the elites here - possibly more than in the US.

Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
As a person with a background in theory-heavy academia in a social science, I've always more or less agreed with this sentiment. It's why I like intersectional theory much more than the more commonly understood models of privilege and racism. They just always feel overly simplified to me, and to put it bluntly, formulated by privileged sociologists that didn't fully understand what they were talking about. McIntosh's original paper on white privilege, which is probably the biggest influence on discourse of the concept (as far as I know), is a really great example. Most of the things she talks about are actually related to class, and as a white person that grew up poor, it's painfully obvious. To be blunt again, the paper comes off to me as the work of an upper middle class white woman that doesn't understand not all white people are as well off as she is. As someone that actually grew up in a trailer, I certainly couldn't relate to a lot of the things she talks about. But, that's just my opinion.

There certainly are aspects of social interaction that are easier in the US if you're white. Cops assuming black teenagers are older and more of a threat being an obvious example. But being financially well off is much more of a source of privilege than race in many cases, and I don't like how often wealth and white privilege are conflated in popular discourse. It's not only inaccurate (to be clear, I'm not saying white privilege doesn't exist - it does - I'm just saying it's an incomplete and there are problems with how people talk about it), it's offputting and alienating to lots of people.

*And from my memories of a university in the 1990s that attracted a disproportionate proportion of private-school kids, that is still common amongst many of the richest in the country.
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Old 12th August 2019, 08:42 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I can't find my post but there was relatively recently a study showing that even wealthy black families tended to lose their wealth after a couple of generations, whilst white families in the same income deciles stayed up.

Someone on this board, some years ago (cannot remember who or when), posted an interesting analogy between socio-economic privilege, and video game difficulty settings. Anyone familiar with video gaming knows that many games have a setting that controls how difficult the game is to play, and some have fairly complex settings that allow multiple types of difficulties or restrictions to be added.

So, to translate that to the real world...

Race adds a level of difficulty.
Class adds a level of difficulty.
Gender adds a level of difficulty.
Sexuality adds a level of difficulty.
Disability adds a level of difficulty.
Location adds a level of difficulty.
And so on.

All of these difficulties add up, sometimes even multiplying together to increase the difficulty.

All else being equal, white people are playing on a lower difficulty setting than black people.

While poor white people may have a higher difficulty setting than middle-class white people, middle-class black people tend to have a difficulty setting equal to or higher than poor white people.

And, of course, any discussion of privilege is a discussion of generalities. While individual experiences are going to vary considerably, the group dynamics still hold true.
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Old 12th August 2019, 10:32 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Someone on this board, some years ago (cannot remember who or when), posted an interesting analogy between socio-economic privilege, and video game difficulty settings. Anyone familiar with video gaming knows that many games have a setting that controls how difficult the game is to play, and some have fairly complex settings that allow multiple types of difficulties or restrictions to be added.

So, to translate that to the real world...

Race adds a level of difficulty.
Class adds a level of difficulty.
Gender adds a level of difficulty.
Sexuality adds a level of difficulty.
Disability adds a level of difficulty.
Location adds a level of difficulty.
And so on.

All of these difficulties add up, sometimes even multiplying together to increase the difficulty.

All else being equal, white people are playing on a lower difficulty setting than black people.

While poor white people may have a higher difficulty setting than middle-class white people, middle-class black people tend to have a difficulty setting equal to or higher than poor white people.

And, of course, any discussion of privilege is a discussion of generalities. While individual experiences are going to vary considerably, the group dynamics still hold true.
Interestingly enough, I saw the same analogy used a number of times on 4chan (years ago, when I used that website). For a while, there was even an infographic going around with a flowchart to let the reader see how privileged they really were. Of course, it was always coming from a position of "white privilege doesn't exist - see? white people can have it hard, too," but I always thought it was amusing that what was basically intersectional theory ended up being a response to white privilege there. Not that they'd ever admit they. To that crowd, intersectional theory (which they didn't understand) was just more postmodern feminist propaganda promoting the oppression olympics. I saw something very similar happen to toxic masculinity, too. People talking about how it, as an idea, was feminists trying to oppress men, while at the same time talking about how hurtful masculine stereotypes were and that they needed to build a more supportive version of masculinity.
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Old 12th August 2019, 01:14 PM   #87
jimbob
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Someone on this board, some years ago (cannot remember who or when), posted an interesting analogy between socio-economic privilege, and video game difficulty settings. Anyone familiar with video gaming knows that many games have a setting that controls how difficult the game is to play, and some have fairly complex settings that allow multiple types of difficulties or restrictions to be added.

So, to translate that to the real world...

Race adds a level of difficulty.
Class adds a level of difficulty.
Gender adds a level of difficulty.
Sexuality adds a level of difficulty.
Disability adds a level of difficulty.
Location adds a level of difficulty.
And so on.

All of these difficulties add up, sometimes even multiplying together to increase the difficulty.

All else being equal, white people are playing on a lower difficulty setting than black people.

While poor white people may have a higher difficulty setting than middle-class white people, middle-class black people tend to have a difficulty setting equal to or higher than poor white people.

And, of course, any discussion of privilege is a discussion of generalities. While individual experiences are going to vary considerably, the group dynamics still hold true.
John Scalzi - a Science Fiction author I'd recommend, posted the original:

https://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/...ting-there-is/
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 12th August 2019, 02:37 PM   #88
luchog
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
John Scalzi - a Science Fiction author I'd recommend, posted the original:

https://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/...ting-there-is/

Ah, right, that's where I stole it from.
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