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Old 30th July 2019, 08:50 PM   #121
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by rustypouch View Post
There's always the chance for any individual to lead a life of suffering, which they didn't agree to, and have no recourse.
well, there is suicide (suicide rates have been falling, globally).
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Old 30th July 2019, 09:00 PM   #122
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Another issue is that "suffering/wellbeing" isn't the only metric when it comes to the question of a life worth living: what if you, personally, experienced more suffering than joy all your life, but that was due to something that fills you with a sense of accomplishment?

And this doesn't even account for the fact that humans don't remember joy and suffering equally or accurately. One truly bad experience quickly forgotten will have less actual impact than a tiny good one remembered over and over.
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Old 30th July 2019, 11:19 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The problem is more complex than that: we don't have too many people overall, planet-wide. But we do have too many people in some parts of the planet, and for cultural, political, social, historical, and just plain logistical reasons it's not feasible to simply redistribute the population more evenly.

That is certainly debatable. I am of the opinion there are way too many of us as is.
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Old 31st July 2019, 01:01 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Child-less people are treated like second class citizens enough without being pawns in some imaginary war against the very concept of having children.
Maybe it depends on what country you;re in, but I never felt like a second-class citizen before I had kids, and that covered the better part of 2 decades of adult-hood.

I'm fairly sure various mates of mine who don't have kids don't feel like second class citizens.

That seems like a really odd view, to me.
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Old 31st July 2019, 05:03 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Maybe it depends on what country you;re in, but I never felt like a second-class citizen before I had kids, and that covered the better part of 2 decades of adult-hood.

I'm fairly sure various mates of mine who don't have kids don't feel like second class citizens.

That seems like a really odd view, to me.
It is still treated as something not quite right. I've no kids and that has been a choice (regardless of other factors that reduce the likelihood of me ever being a parent), yet tell someone you've no kids and the first question is usually (outside of passing conversations) is "why?". The default is that you will have kids. And for women I'd say it is even worse, there is nearly always a hint of pity when talking about it.

Plus of course it means I can be smug and use whatever resources I want without a hint of guilt because I haven't burdened the world with additional resource consuming units.
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Old 31st July 2019, 06:08 AM   #126
Tolls
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I've got kids.
I've never felt the need to ask someone "why" they didn't have them.
That just strikes me as ever-so-slightly bizarre in this day and age.
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Old 31st July 2019, 06:26 AM   #127
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I have a different perspective than a lot of people I think. My wife and I were married 16 years before our first child was born. Because we chose not to have any kids during that time. Now we have 2.

I know what it's like to be intentionally childless. For a while we heard the "when are you going to have kids" nonsense. Eventually everyone gave up on us.

We had kids when we were damn good and ready to do it, and not before.
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Old 31st July 2019, 06:30 AM   #128
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I would never ask someone if they have kids because the answer might be they did have some, but they died. That would be a teensy bit of a downer for all present.
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Old 31st July 2019, 06:40 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I would never ask someone if they have kids because the answer might be they did have some, but they died. That would be a teensy bit of a downer for all present.
Or, like a friend of mine, they've tried repeatedly to have kids, been through all sorts of medical procedures to try and improve their fertility, have ultimately failed, and will always feel sad about it. And probably feel sick of being asked, "Well, why didn't you adopt," and trying to explain that, though they wouldn't presume to judge whether one is in any way better than the other, adopting is not precisely the same as being biological parents, and is not something they felt was right for them.

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Old 31st July 2019, 06:42 AM   #130
pgwenthold
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I would never ask someone if they have kids because the answer might be they did have some, but they died. That would be a teensy bit of a downer for all present.
Or maybe they've had multiple miscarriages?

"Why don't you have kids?"
"Because every time I get pregnant, I have a miscarriage, but hey, thanks for bringing that up."

I can also tell you, fertility problems are more common than we talk about. I know of at least 4 couples who had fertility problems - 2 ended up adopting and one even used a donor egg.

But hey, let's pry into their personal medical issues, right?
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Old 31st July 2019, 06:50 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Or, like a friend of mine, they've tried repeatedly to have kids, been through all sorts of medical procedures to try and improve their fertility, have ultimately failed, and will always feel sad about it. And probably feel sick of being asked, "Well, why didn't you adopt," and trying to explain that, though they wouldn't presume to judge whether one is in any way better than the other, adopting is not precisely the same as being biological parents, and is not something they felt was right for them.
Amen. A family member of mine went through IVF and endured all the medical pains and financial losses that entails, and would be driven to fury by people suggesting "just adopt one!" She had to explain that it's not 19th century Dickens and there's not a store full of kids they just hand out on request.
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Old 31st July 2019, 07:32 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Another issue is that "suffering/wellbeing" isn't the only metric when it comes to the question of a life worth living: what if you, personally, experienced more suffering than joy all your life, but that was due to something that fills you with a sense of accomplishment?
Then you'll have a lot of suffering, some joy, and a sense of accomplishment. I don't see why a hedonistic utilitarian couldn't account for that. It's a positive feeling, although usually a fleeting one.

Quote:
And this doesn't even account for the fact that humans don't remember joy and suffering equally or accurately. One truly bad experience quickly forgotten will have less actual impact than a tiny good one remembered over and over.
I'd think that would count in favor of Benatar's view--we're bad at assessing our own well-being, and selective memory is one reason why. But I don't see any good reason to give primacy to the memory of an experience, rather than the experience itself. If you offer me the chance to be tortured while being given a drug that will suppress memory formation, I'll still turn you down.

I also think it's strange to imagine that a truly bad experience could be quickly forgotten. Truly bad experiences tend to be traumatic, and traumatic memories are notable in that they aren't easily forgotten. Instead, we forget the small miseries.
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Old 31st July 2019, 08:25 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
well, there is suicide (suicide rates have been falling, globally).

But on the rise in the USA in this millennium, particularly for non-hispanic whites: Suicide in the USA (Wikipedia)
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:47 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I would never ask someone if they have kids because the answer might be they did have some, but they died. That would be a teensy bit of a downer for all present.
My mom got a variant of that when I was for many years presumed to be an only child. I'm not. I'm an only surviving child.
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Old 31st July 2019, 02:41 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by chrispy View Post
I don't have any kids, nor do I want to in the future. It just isn't something that appeals to me. I am very selfish with my time. I like to do what I want to do when I have the time to do so. We have precious little time alive and the idea of spending 18-21 years on someone elses schedule scares the **** out of me. Also, do I need to mention the responsibility involved? The money? The Stress? Yikes!

I am a school teacher by trade, and that was always fun because I could help kids grow and learn, but then give them back at 3:30 every day!
I notice in an all-Latino school students are mystified when I say I don't have kids. Their default assumption seems to be that everybody wants kids. Which is kind of encouraging; it implies that they have experienced themselves as being wanted.

Really it seems with a little introspection they'd comprehend why someone chose to be childless, because they know how annoying they can be.
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Old 31st July 2019, 06:08 PM   #136
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My son and daughter-in-law are not going to have kids. I will have no grandchildren, unless at some time in the future they decide to adopt. They have their reasons. I don't know what those reasons are, and I don't care. It's their decision to make, and I support them in it.

They have had to justify themselves a little to my parents, though. But my parents are awesome and they ended up as accepting and supportive as I am. Anyway, they already have a great-grandchild.
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Old 1st August 2019, 10:52 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I would never ask someone if they have kids because the answer might be they did have some, but they died. That would be a teensy bit of a downer for all present.
Unless you're, like, a funeral director looking for business.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 10:26 AM   #138
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There is less children in developed countries because kids in those countries are monetary black hole. I bet if you muricans got rid of whole "student debt" thing, childbirth rates would go up, all other things being equal.

It also explains why certain groups (for example, less educated, more religious or republicans) have them more in same countries - they are less likely to rationally conclude when they should have kids and when they shouldn't.
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Old 3rd August 2019, 03:15 AM   #139
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YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

I guess this is one of the videos Baylor finds inspirational:
"Leftist leaders without children don't care about the future of European children because they don't have any."

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

I'm surprised to see politicians like Theresa May or Angela Merkel being called "leftist," but in comparison to the ultra-right politicians who appear towards the end of the video they probably are.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th August 2019, 08:22 AM   #140
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If one book on Amazon a movement makes, we've a society have more pressing issues.
It appears to be a little more than that.

Dave
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Old 13th August 2019, 08:57 AM   #141
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Fertility is falling just about everywhere in the world: Peoplequake

Women aren't marrying: All The Single Ladies

People are living on their own: Going Solo

All these developments are just fine (I do all three of them). The increased agency of most people save for a minority of rich powerful white men #NotAllMen #ISaidNotAllMen is the primary driver of all of this. And that is an unmitigated good thing.
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Old 13th August 2019, 09:32 AM   #142
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Stop overpopulation. Promote childlessness today.
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