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Old 25th July 2019, 08:01 AM   #1201
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Auditors have been around since the beginning of business in some form or another. The ancient Romans had them. The Forum hawkers BC used to spit at them, I expect. So it's hardly a new, neo-liberal, commie idea. Please...



Btw, Jesus tossing the merchants out of the temple of Jerusalem is yet another example of "regulatory compliance enforcement". Perhaps the dress-wearing bearded Middle-Eastern peace-nik is a better example than we thought.
I made a mildly serious point, and a small joke. Somehow you managed to miss both.
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Old 25th July 2019, 08:04 AM   #1202
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Here's something that irritates me a little bit. We have a standard process for requesting password resets. If you need your password reset, we need to verify that you are not someone who is just pretending to be you in order to get access to our network illegally. So we get you to have a colleague submit an online Identity Verification (IDV) form saying "this is a real person - I know them or I've checked their security pass". This form then displays a 4-digit number on screen, while simultaneously emailing it to us. They can then give us the number over the phone and we verify it against the number that was emailed to us. Simple, right? We've had the same process for years, it's publicly documented, and it is used by pretty much everybody who doesn't use the self-service password reset system that we provide, which is pretty much everybody.



But still. Someone will ring us and the call will go like this:



Them: Oh hi, can you reset my password for me?



Me: Certainly. Have you had a colleague submit an Identity Verification form?



Them: Sure, hang on. Hey Susan. Can you do an identity thing for me? An identity thing.



Me: Identity Verification form.



Them: Identity verification form. Can you do one of those for me? Hang on, she's just doing one now. No, the identity verification. For a password reset. No, the... Yes. That one. I think. Yes, LAN password. No, LAN password. Thanks. What? Who's my supervisor? Jane. Yes. It's not working? Oh, it's working? It's not working. Hang on.



*five minutes of dead air*



Them, suddenly: Five one three two.



Me: Okay, I'm going to need you to repeat that in a moment once I receive the form.



It's not that they don't know the procedure that irritates me. Everyone doesn't know something. It's that they make me wait, on dead air, for so long while they sort their stuff out. That's time that I could be using to take other calls.
Wow. Automated multi-factor authentication, especially for password resets, is so commonplace that it never occurred to me that orgs might still be doing it manually. That must really suck.
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Old 25th July 2019, 11:52 AM   #1203
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Originally Posted by MEequalsIxR View Post
That actually seems quite plausible. I can see a scenario where you are allocated bathroom time and a limited number of visits per day at specified times. So many minutes to shower, so many for each function. Washing clothes or dishes at allocated timed for a certain time. Pretty much everything is allocated.

Oh you want to bake that? You have 12 baking minutes left for this period. Want to boil an egg you have 20 minutes of boiling time left for this period.

Doesn't sound like much fun but it does sound like like most of the MBAs I've had to deal with industry.
Like Amazon?
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Old 25th July 2019, 12:12 PM   #1204
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I wasn't replying to arth.

Besides, what do you imagine auditors are auditing, except regulatory compliance?

Take away the regulation, and the audit is unnecessary.
In my industry, it's mainly compliance with non-mandatory industry standards.

ETA, for example, ISO 9000x compliance isn't mandatory, but a lot of our customers require that.
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Last edited by jimbob; 25th July 2019 at 12:13 PM.
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Old 25th July 2019, 12:22 PM   #1205
theprestige
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
In my industry, it's mainly compliance with non-mandatory industry standards.

ETA, for example, ISO 9000x compliance isn't mandatory, but a lot of our customers require that.
Fair enough. I figured someone would bring up voluntary regulations. They're a different case, not covered by my blanket description that implied government regulations only. So you have a valid complaint there.

On the other hand, the distinction between auditors and regulators is still valid, I think. And the argument that one should welcome the auditor's strict adherence to the auditing process, if one believes that the regulations have value.

Obviously in the case of voluntary regulations, one must believe they have value. Otherwise, one isn't just questioning the value of the auditors, one is questioning the value of one's entire industry. At that point, one should probably be looking for a different career, in an industry with rules one actually believes in.
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Old 25th July 2019, 02:00 PM   #1206
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Like Amazon?
I'm not familiar with their policy but I have worked in environments where people were given specific break times for such matters. I kinda had in mind more of a scifi type of dystopia where everything is budgeted and controlled.

But I like the way you think.
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Old 25th July 2019, 02:40 PM   #1207
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Originally Posted by MEequalsIxR View Post
I'm not familiar with their policy but I have worked in environments where people were given specific break times for such matters. I kinda had in mind more of a scifi type of dystopia where everything is budgeted and controlled.

But I like the way you think.
Interestingly enough, a couple of my colleagues (a recent graduate and an intern on a thick sandwich course) were discussing use of AI and machine learning in manufacturing today. They were discussing systems that can see where people slow down so that they run out of time to do the next job before their beaks, so they get off earlier.
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Old 25th July 2019, 03:01 PM   #1208
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Interestingly enough, a couple of my colleagues (a recent graduate and an intern on a thick sandwich course) were discussing use of AI and machine learning in manufacturing today. They were discussing systems that can see where people slow down so that they run out of time to do the next job before their beaks, so they get off earlier.
I dunno if I'd call those AI. I think of them as "expert systems". But that's my own private jargon.

Anyway, whatever they're called, I'm pretty sure that in a few short years we'll all be at the mercy of such systems.
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Old 25th July 2019, 03:05 PM   #1209
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I dunno if I'd call those AI. I think of them as "expert systems". But that's my own private jargon.

Anyway, whatever they're called, I'm pretty sure that in a few short years we'll all be at the mercy of such systems.
It was teaching itself what to look for, hence the machine learning, which I tend to understand as being classed as AI, but hey, that's not my field, so I could easily be using the wrong terms.
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Old 25th July 2019, 07:39 PM   #1210
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Slow down. I'm not saying we should get rid of regulators. I'm saying that it's not fair to blame the auditors for making your life miserable, when it's actually the regulators who make the auditor's job necessary.

Also, if you believe the regulations and the regulators have value, then it seems to me that you should also welcome the auditing process, with all its strict demands. By ensuring regulatory compliance, the auditors are helping you make the world a better place.
Indeed. But it can still be onerous at times, which is what I think Faydra was trying to convey.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Also, it's possible to over-regulate. Even if you believe in far reaching government regulation, you may still believe a specific regulation goes too far, or is counter productive. In such a scenario, your hurr durr late stage capitalism arguement is worse than useless. Not that it matters here, since nobody's really arguing those points anyway. I made a lighthearted remark, appended to a comment about the distinction between auditors and regulators. Somehow you took this as a call to deploy weaponized sarcasm. It didn't have to be this way. It doesn't have to stay this way. Shall we both back down?
Yeah, it's pretty far off topic for this thread.
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Old 25th July 2019, 07:42 PM   #1211
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Wow. Automated multi-factor authentication, especially for password resets, is so commonplace that it never occurred to me that orgs might still be doing it manually. That must really suck.
I know, right? I think it's because they actually have to set it up first. I'm absolutely sure that some people keep saying "oh, I should set that up some day oh no I need my password reset right now". Some people don't realise that the function exists. Some don't trust it. Some are old-fashioned.

For a range of jobs for which the selection criteria has included basic computer skills since the 90s, it's startling how many people in these jobs don't have basic computer skills.
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Old 26th July 2019, 03:05 PM   #1212
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Originally Posted by MEequalsIxR View Post
I'm not familiar with their policy but I have worked in environments where people were given specific break times for such matters. I kinda had in mind more of a scifi type of dystopia where everything is budgeted and controlled.
Just like Amazon then.

Originally Posted by MEequalsIxR View Post
But I like the way you think.
Like the motivational improvement produced by removing usernames and having everyone log on to the domain with their staff number?
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Old 28th July 2019, 05:35 AM   #1213
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"My computer is running slow why is..."
"... because you have 50 tabs open and never log off or reboot for updates. Same as the last time you asked"
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Old 28th July 2019, 05:55 AM   #1214
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Just like Amazon then.





Like the motivational improvement produced by removing usernames and having everyone log on to the domain with their staff number?
In the UK we are always hearing about our low productively compared to other countries and everyone appears at a loss to work out why. The answer is very simple, on the whole productivity units, sorry employees are treated badly compared to these other countries. 48 hour working directive, just sign here if you want the job and opt out of that because we know you want to work 72 hours plus a week and can't have johnny foreigner interfering with that. The only saving grace we have is at the moment his our employee rights prevent "at will" firing.
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Old 28th July 2019, 07:58 AM   #1215
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
In the UK we are always hearing about our low productively compared to other countries and everyone appears at a loss to work out why. The answer is very simple, on the whole productivity units, sorry employees are treated badly compared to these other countries. 48 hour working directive, just sign here if you want the job and opt out of that because we know you want to work 72 hours plus a week and can't have johnny foreigner interfering with that. The only saving grace we have is at the moment his our employee rights prevent "at will" firing.
My contract is based around the 70 hour fortnight. With 1.67 and 2.50 overtime multipliers for hours in excess.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:30 PM   #1216
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Originally Posted by MEequalsIxR View Post
I'm not familiar with their policy but I have worked in environments where people were given specific break times for such matters. I kinda had in mind more of a scifi type of dystopia where everything is budgeted and controlled.

And if you're late for anything, the time that you miss is deducted from your lifespan.
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Old 29th July 2019, 02:30 PM   #1217
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
And if you're late for anything, the time that you miss is deducted from your lifespan.

You can always go fishing to make up for it.

Quote:
God will not subtract from man's allotted
time the hours spent in fishing.
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Old 29th July 2019, 02:56 PM   #1218
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
And if you're late for anything, the time that you miss is deducted from your lifespan.
That was a good story but I always liked reading H. Ellison. That kind of stuff certainly shaped my thinking.
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Old 31st July 2019, 07:22 PM   #1219
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It may be just confirmation bias, but it seems to me that when software developers call the Service Desk they assume that the person they are speaking to is also a software developer and therefore has a full and complete understanding of all of the developer tools and jargon that they use. Tier 1 is an entry level job (that I happen to have developed into an entire career path). We don't have the detailed knowledge that you do.
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Old 31st July 2019, 07:34 PM   #1220
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Okay, so there's another facepalm moment. Someone's account has been deactivated. If they are a contractor, there's an online form that their supervisor needs to submit. If they're a permanent staff member, then an email from someone of a certain level is sufficient.

I've spoken to this person three times now, and each time I've told them the correct procedure. But they've done the wrong thing each time, and had to go back to try something different. If they'd done the right thing, as I told them on the first call, they would have had their issue resolved by now.
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Old 1st August 2019, 03:00 PM   #1221
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So, last night I got a work email at home that said my email had been hacked, locked, and archived and that if I wanted access again I had to pay $300 in bitcoin to some account. As usual with such emails, I figured it was my company testing me to ensure I didn't click on such things. I checked my email, everything worked fine, so I figured it was an internal security test that if I didn't report I would have to take a security course. But, I couldn't report the email from home, so I decided to report it when I got to the office today.

I get to the office, and my computer had been restarted because of the normal Wednesday night updates my company does. Turning it on, Outlook would not start. I tried a few times, no soap. So, I bit the bullet and created a ticket noting the Outlook error message, the fact that I received the email mentioned above, and coincidentally was told my password was expiring in 3 days. I tend to provide any and all information, whether it applies or not, as who knows what may be the key element.

The tech guy comes to my desk and starts vexing that the email meant that the entire company may be compromised. He was unable to even get to the outlook account nor the settings. I suggested uninstalling outlook and re-installing, which he agreed was the next step. While he was doing that, I went home to get my personal computer so I could work.

I got back, and he was able to uninstall and re-install Outlook, and connect it to my account, no problem. He was still worried about the email claiming bad stuff. He reported the email via the appropriate button and sure enough it was a fake one the company was testing me with. Big sigh of relief by the tech guy.

Unfortunately, he had notified his management of the possible security breech. It moved up the management chain pretty quickly, and I received several emails through out the day describing actions taken for this non-issue.

If only the security team had notified the support team that they were doing this test, it would have saved a lot of sweat and angst all around.
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Old 1st August 2019, 03:06 PM   #1222
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
So, last night I got a work email at home that said my email had been hacked, locked, and archived and that if I wanted access again I had to pay $300 in bitcoin to some account. As usual with such emails, I figured it was my company testing me to ensure I didn't click on such things. I checked my email, everything worked fine, so I figured it was an internal security test that if I didn't report I would have to take a security course. But, I couldn't report the email from home, so I decided to report it when I got to the office today.

I get to the office, and my computer had been restarted because of the normal Wednesday night updates my company does. Turning it on, Outlook would not start. I tried a few times, no soap. So, I bit the bullet and created a ticket noting the Outlook error message, the fact that I received the email mentioned above, and coincidentally was told my password was expiring in 3 days. I tend to provide any and all information, whether it applies or not, as who knows what may be the key element.

The tech guy comes to my desk and starts vexing that the email meant that the entire company may be compromised. He was unable to even get to the outlook account nor the settings. I suggested uninstalling outlook and re-installing, which he agreed was the next step. While he was doing that, I went home to get my personal computer so I could work.

I got back, and he was able to uninstall and re-install Outlook, and connect it to my account, no problem. He was still worried about the email claiming bad stuff. He reported the email via the appropriate button and sure enough it was a fake one the company was testing me with. Big sigh of relief by the tech guy.

Unfortunately, he had notified his management of the possible security breech. It moved up the management chain pretty quickly, and I received several emails through out the day describing actions taken for this non-issue.

If only the security team had notified the support team that they were doing this test, it would have saved a lot of sweat and angst all around.
Damn! Nearly got $300 off you!
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Old 5th August 2019, 11:27 AM   #1223
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Co-Worker: sometimes AWS tools are just awesome. Cloudwatch monitoring
Me: I have AnxiousUser (tm) monitoring. It's instantaneous, yet shrill.



I mostly kid, but there have been many times that the users beat the alerts. They are on it 24x7 and freak out at the slightest little hiccup.
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Old 5th August 2019, 11:30 AM   #1224
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Faydra View Post
Co-Worker: sometimes AWS tools are just awesome. Cloudwatch monitoring
Me: I have AnxiousUser (tm) monitoring. It's instantaneous, yet shrill.



I mostly kid, but there have been many times that the users beat the alerts. They are on it 24x7 and freak out at the slightest little hiccup.
Yep. I once worked on a business-critical service, where the goal was to detect and alert on early indicators, before anything rose to the level of being noticed by a user. But that was a very very mature system, with a lot of functionality for making that feasible.

One advantage to AU monitoring is that I get to say, "if this were a problem with my service, my phone would be blowing up right now. Clear your cache and try again."
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Old 5th August 2019, 11:33 AM   #1225
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yep. I once worked on a business-critical service, where the goal was to detect and alert on early indicators, before anything rose to the level of being noticed by a user. But that was a very very mature system, with a lot of functionality for making that feasible.

One advantage to AU monitoring is that I get to say, "if this were a problem with my service, my phone would be blowing up right now. Clear your cache and try again."
I have said these exact words many times.
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Old 5th August 2019, 11:38 AM   #1226
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Originally Posted by Faydra View Post
I have said these exact words many times.
Hehe, been there.

"No, I can see other users successfully making an SSO connection. If you are the only one not able to log in, it's not likely to be a problem on my SSO server."

And, of course, during the time it takes me to get them to stop arguing on the phone that I'm wrong, I can open the event log and see where they typed in the wrong username, or the "invalid password" event in my log.
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Old 7th August 2019, 09:42 PM   #1227
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
One advantage to AU monitoring is that I get to say, "if this were a problem with my service, my phone would be blowing up right now. Clear your cache and try again."

The opposite scenario being when you get a call from a tech with an actual edge case problem. "Before you go into "if this were a problem", I'm also a tech and I have tried everything. We have an edge case here. You should go freshen up your coffee."
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Old 12th August 2019, 12:14 AM   #1228
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Just lots of calls. RAS is down until Wednesday, which has made some people unhappy. But for some reason all passwords were expired and had to be reset at login. It's a straightforward process, but of course a lot of people had problems with it.

It's just one of those tiring times where you don't get a break.
Hey, remember this? This was three months ago. Guess what our password expiry cycle is! Guess what kind of calls we've been inundated with today!

The fun never ends!
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Old 12th August 2019, 11:22 AM   #1229
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Hey, remember this? This was three months ago. Guess what our password expiry cycle is! Guess what kind of calls we've been inundated with today!

The fun never ends!
I'm sorry you have to put up with this. You have idiots running your security team. Security research concluded a long time ago that periodic forced password resets decrease security. I'm all for expiring passwords on accounts that haven't been used in three months, but forcing everyone in an organization to change their password four times a year is just stupid.
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Old 12th August 2019, 12:19 PM   #1230
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"Give me access to your project in Jira."

Translation:

"Give me access to somebody else's project in Confluence."

Double irony: He made the request via an item added to my project in Jira. He already had exactly what he asked for.
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Old 12th August 2019, 01:25 PM   #1231
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
I'm sorry you have to put up with this. You have idiots running your security team. Security research concluded a long time ago that periodic forced password resets decrease security. I'm all for expiring passwords on accounts that haven't been used in three months, but forcing everyone in an organization to change their password four times a year is just stupid.
Yeah, but it takes time for that to translate to policy.

Current security standards (i.e.-HiTRUST) require changes every 90 days, 60 for privileged accounts.
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Old 12th August 2019, 01:34 PM   #1232
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
I'm sorry you have to put up with this. You have idiots running your security team. Security research concluded a long time ago that periodic forced password resets decrease security. I'm all for expiring passwords on accounts that haven't been used in three months, but forcing everyone in an organization to change their password four times a year is just stupid.
A colleague told me that they had such rules for one of his previous employers. IT also continuously ran a password cracker on all the accounts and in the end realised that.

None of the engineers' passwords were cracked, but several of the managers were.

The management at that particular British multinational were dinosaurs. One in the late 1990's had his secretary log in for him, and when she was made redundant, he asked for his password. It was "bastard".
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Old 12th August 2019, 05:53 PM   #1233
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
I'm sorry you have to put up with this. You have idiots running your security team. Security research concluded a long time ago that periodic forced password resets decrease security. I'm all for expiring passwords on accounts that haven't been used in three months, but forcing everyone in an organization to change their password four times a year is just stupid.
Government is very slow to react.

In other news, my TL has now instructed me to recommend the self-service password reset facility to everyone who calls for a password reset.
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Old 12th August 2019, 08:24 PM   #1234
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Government is very slow to react.

In other news, my TL has now instructed me to recommend the self-service password reset facility to everyone who calls for a password reset.
"Can't you just do it since I've got you on the phone???"
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Old 12th August 2019, 09:15 PM   #1235
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
"Can't you just do it since I've got you on the phone???"
Oh yes, I would absolutely only recommend it after I've already performed the password reset.
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Old 12th August 2019, 09:50 PM   #1236
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
"Can't you just do it since I've got you on the phone???"
*smile sweetly voice* Actually, there's a backlog of password resets to do just now. So you can wait 30 minutes or more on the line until I get to your password, or you can do it yourself in about 30 seconds with the self-service portal. What would you like?
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Old 12th August 2019, 09:54 PM   #1237
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
*smile sweetly voice* Actually, there's a backlog of password resets to do just now. So you can wait 30 minutes or more on the line until I get to your password, or you can do it yourself in about 30 seconds with the self-service portal. What would you like?
The problem with that is that they have to pre-register for the password reset portal by selecting security questions and answers. Name of first pet, street where you grew up, etc. And for that you have to be already logged on.
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Old 13th August 2019, 06:24 AM   #1238
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The problem with that is that they have to pre-register for the password reset portal by selecting security questions and answers. Name of first pet, street where you grew up, etc. And for that you have to be already logged on.
I often have that problem with one of the Microsoft logins. I have to login with my old password to send an email with my "reset forgotten password" code.
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Old 13th August 2019, 06:38 AM   #1239
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Our HR department has basically given up on even the slightest bit of prepping people to start working. Orientation is just about getting people to watch the welcome video, sign the right forms, and off you go. The fact that new employees spend the next 3 days fumbling about stuff that could have been addressed in 15 minutes in orientation isn't their problem.

And those are full time employees. Contractors and interns get no actual orientation.

But hey, my time isn't valuable or anything. I love fumbling with people trying to explain they have to update their domain password when they log in or that it is different from the company software platform.
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Old 13th August 2019, 06:09 PM   #1240
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Just got a bit of a funny one. Made me laugh, a little.

The caller was helping a person get access to their (the caller's) network drive. The drive was one that was based on the organisational structure, so all members of the team should have access to it. Ah, but this was a person from another team who was doing a cross-team collaboration. So they needed to access another team's network drive and they were trying to use the wrong form.

The form is literally titled "Access Another Teams Network Drive" and it's the very top form listed in the Forms Catalogue.
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