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Tags Jeffrey Epstein , sex offenders , sex trafficking

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Old 13th August 2019, 11:39 PM   #481
dann
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
There's a joke in there someplace.

Ever heard the story of Saint Ursula and the 11,000 British Virgins?

Quote:
Unfortunately Ursula and her travel companions – said to be anywhere between 11 and 11,000 virgin maidens – found themselves in the city of Cologne in Germany, where they were cruelly massacred for refusing to copulate with or marry the invading Huns, a nomadic race from Central Asia who conquered much of Europe in the fourth century.

The Virgin Islands are named after them. And I bet that Epstein has cracked a joke or two about it over the years.
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Old 14th August 2019, 05:03 AM   #482
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Ever heard the story of Saint Ursula and the 11,000 British Virgins?




The Virgin Islands are named after them. And I bet that Epstein has cracked a joke or two about it over the years.
11000 British virgins on holiday. Pull the other one!
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Old 14th August 2019, 05:08 AM   #483
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm still waiting for another run-in from one of our Master Pedants about how Epstein wasn't technically a pedophile and that DISTINCTION IS VERY IMPORTANT AND WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT IT RIGHT NOW.
I was about to mention it, but given how bat **** people get when it's pointed out that they're wrong, I opted not to.

Go ahead, lump all of them together. I'm sure it'll help.
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Old 14th August 2019, 05:13 AM   #484
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I was about to mention it, but given how bat **** people get when it's pointed out that they're wrong, I opted not to.

Go ahead, lump all of them together. I'm sure it'll help.
It's okay, Bob beat you too waaaaaaaay back on page one.

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The most important discussion is going to be pointing out that Epstein is not a pedophile.
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Old 14th August 2019, 05:18 AM   #485
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's okay, Bob beat you too waaaaaaaay back on page one.
Well forgive me if I think it's rather important to make the distinction. I seem to be in the minority on this forum.
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Old 14th August 2019, 05:25 AM   #486
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well forgive me if I think it's rather important to make the distinction. I seem to be in the minority on this forum.
It's really weird that this one bit of overprecision is so important to you when you are generally pretty hard core "anti-pedantics" (and pedantics always hide behind "We just need to be clear") in most other discussion.

And I don't mean that insultingly or snarkily. It's not wrong or bad (we all have that things that we need/desire to be more precise about) just weird.
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Old 14th August 2019, 05:28 AM   #487
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's really weird that this one bit of overprecision is so important to you when you are generally pretty hard core "anti-pedantics" (and pedantics always hide behind "We just need to be clear") in most other discussion.
That's odd. Am I not _always_ in favour of precise language?

And what do you mean by "weird"? Are you making an implication, here? I'd be very careful about that, if I were you.

Quote:
And I don't mean that insultingly or snarkily. It's not wrong or bad (we all have that things that we need/desire to be more precise about) just weird.
Do you find it weird if I explain it this way: treating pedophiles as if they are the exact same thing as a child molester drives them even moreso into the darkness where they are harder to track, treat and stop. In so doing those who promote impresice language, in this instance, are putting real children in greater risk of molestation. I care about that very much.
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Old 14th August 2019, 05:33 AM   #488
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Technically not paedophile island doesn’t have the same ring to it.

Statutory rape island?!
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Old 14th August 2019, 05:38 AM   #489
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's odd. Am I not _always_ in favour of precise language?

And what do you mean by "weird"? Are you making an implication, here? I'd be very careful about that, if I were you.
Dude calm down. I'm just saying that you are the kind of person that gets the difference between precision and pedantry and I've seen you apply that multiple times. Nothing more sinister then that.

And in this case I see what you are doing as pedantics, not precision.

Quote:
Do you find it weird if I explain it this way: treating pedophiles as if they are the exact same thing as a child molester drives them even moreso into the darkness where they are harder to track, treat and stop. In so doing those who promote impresice language, in this instance, are putting real children in greater risk of molestation.
*Trying to find the best way to word this*

I think it's better to have that discussion in a discussion about a pedophile being assumed to be a predator instead of in a discussion about an actual predator.

That's when precision turns into pedantics, when you can just never let it slide.

Quote:
I care about that very much.
You can dig your heels in a fight the common usage of words all you want. You can also go down to the shoreline and try to piss the rising tide back into the ocean.
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Old 14th August 2019, 05:40 AM   #490
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And in this case I see what you are doing as pedantics, not precision.
Given that the two terms are actually pretty different, I don't see how you could think that.

Quote:
*Trying to find the best way to word this*

I think it's better to have that discussion in a discussion about a pedophile being assumed to be a predator instead of in a discussion about an actual predator.
Except that both of them have the same effect. By now, it's unrecoverable anyway. The term "pedophile" means "child molester" in the minds of too many.

Quote:
Dude calm down.
Given that I've been accused of defending pedophiles at least twice on this forum just for suggesting that we should be careful about language in this case specifically in order to seek safer solutions to protect children, no I don't think I will.
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Old 14th August 2019, 06:15 AM   #491
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Technically not paedophile island doesn’t have the same ring to it.
He should have bought an island in the Hebrides, for precision's sake.
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Old 14th August 2019, 06:18 AM   #492
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's really weird that this one bit of overprecision is so important to you when you are generally pretty hard core "anti-pedantics" (and pedantics always hide behind "We just need to be clear") in most other discussion.
I can see why it's important that correct people who are using the term wrongly, considering how common it is for people to abuse the term and broaden it to include perfectly legal relationships.

For example: my younger brother, who is certainly not the sharpest knife in the drawers, seriously accused my cousin of being a pedophile because he was in some kind relationship with a 16 year old girl. It's not the first time that I've heard him misuse the term. When he was 18 or so he said that some older guy would be a pedophile if he hit on him.

Given some people's tendency to spread rumours combined with the presence of a certain kind of mentally unhinged thugs (such as my brother) who feel that assaulting "pedos" is justified, I would implore people to avoid misusing the term. In the UK this kind of thuggery seems fairly common, with even people falsely accused of being pedophiles having been subject to quite widespread harrassment and abuse.
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Old 14th August 2019, 06:22 AM   #493
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Warden at prison where Epstein died is temporarily reassigned and multiple staffers placed on leave
That's the first thing you do in a conspiracy -- get rid of the people you hired to do the crime. OK, so they're still accessible, but I would not be a bit surprised if one or more turned up dead soon.
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Old 14th August 2019, 06:25 AM   #494
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm still waiting for another run-in from one of our Master Pedants about how Epstein wasn't technically a pedophile and that DISTINCTION IS VERY IMPORTANT AND WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT IT RIGHT NOW.

Really? I think it's an important thing to talk about.

I don't think it should have any bearing on how Jeff should be treated, but if you want to try to stop this sort of thing happening again then it's important to know exactly what this sort of thing is.
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Old 14th August 2019, 06:33 AM   #495
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Given that I've been accused of defending pedophiles at least twice on this forum just for suggesting that we should be careful about language in this case specifically in order to seek safer solutions to protect children, no I don't think I will.

You're not really supposed to raise questions of technical fact. You're just supposed to be outraged and leave it at that.


Pedophilia is now absolutely no longer a medical/psychological condition, it's a catch all term for anyone that sleeps with someone under the age of consent (and this is a moving target, depending on where in the world you are). You and I just have to accept this.


This is going to make treating people very difficult, but what the hell, it allows us to be suitably (if inaccurately) outraged at Jeff.
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Old 14th August 2019, 06:34 AM   #496
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Really? I think it's an important thing to talk about.

I don't think it should have any bearing on how Jeff should be treated, but if you want to try to stop this sort of thing happening again then it's important to know exactly what this sort of thing is.
I think it could be an important distinction, because the methods of preventing are different if the motivations are different. If one has an attraction to prepubescent children that is different that choosing young victims because they are powerless and easy to manipulate. It totally changes the methodology and motives, though certainly shouldn't be regarded as a mitigating factor.

But it is the difference between Epstein and Jackson for example.
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Old 14th August 2019, 06:35 AM   #497
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Okay fair enough, I'll try (I said try) to be more precise with my language in the future.

//For the record though I didn't come up with "Pedophile Island."//
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Old 14th August 2019, 06:46 AM   #498
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay fair enough, I'll try (I said try) to be more precise with my language in the future.

//For the record though I didn't come up with "Pedophile Island."//
It's just a little too soon for joking about. Sixteen or eighteen years from now, depending on location, it'll be acceptable to laugh although still possibly creepy.
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Old 14th August 2019, 06:48 AM   #499
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's just a little too soon for joking about. Sixteen or eighteen years from now, depending on location, it'll be acceptable to laugh although still possibly creepy.

I just want to be able to have a clinical conversation about these situations without being labelled an apologist.

It is becoming more and more difficult.
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Old 14th August 2019, 06:55 AM   #500
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I just want to be able to have a clinical conversation about these situations without being labelled an apologist.

It is becoming more and more difficult.
Perhaps there should be separate threads for these things, one for expressing outrage and the other for clinical conversation.
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Old 14th August 2019, 07:12 AM   #501
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's just a little too soon for joking about. Sixteen or eighteen years from now, depending on location, it'll be acceptable to laugh although still possibly creepy.
"Hey Siri, remind me to nominate carlito for his hebrides joke on August 14, 2037." I hope that I speak enough Russian Chinese to still be able to post on this forum then.
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Old 14th August 2019, 07:24 AM   #502
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In literally every conversation I've read about Epstein he is called a paedophile.

But paedophile refers to attraction tot prepubescent children if I'm not mistaken. I don't even know the correct term for attraction to teenagers before the age of consent. Is that paederast?

Incel now means sexless nerd on the verge of a mass shooting. It used to just be a guy who couldn't get laid. As far as I know, there now isn't a term to describe men who can't get a girlfriend AND don't want to unload an AK-47 in a mall. Although I suspect that this demographic is considerably larger.
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Old 14th August 2019, 07:26 AM   #503
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The pedophile/sexual predator thing, while I could still quibble over the details a little, is at least legit in that we're talking an action versus as... predication I guess is the best term.

Now the whole pedophile/ephilophile thing is a little more nitpicky for the sake of being nitpicky.
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Old 14th August 2019, 07:28 AM   #504
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
In literally every conversation I've read about Epstein he is called a paedophile.

But paedophile refers to attraction tot prepubescent children if I'm not mistaken. I don't even know the correct term for attraction to teenagers before the age of consent. Is that paederast?
No, see carlitos's excellent line of posts just a tad up thread. Follow the jokes, they will lead you home.
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Old 14th August 2019, 07:29 AM   #505
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
"Hey Siri, remind me to nominate carlito for his hebrides joke on August 14, 2037." I hope that I speak enough Russian Chinese to still be able to post on this forum then.
I think that 'I'm sorry I Tweeted that ten years ago, I'm a different person now' is a lot easier to explain than 'I'm sorry, I don't even remember ordering an IA to make an edgy joke on social media twenty years ago. I'm a different person now'.
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Old 14th August 2019, 07:35 AM   #506
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Perhaps there should be separate threads for these things, one for expressing outrage and the other for clinical conversation.
They'd bleed into one another, either way.
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Old 14th August 2019, 08:41 AM   #507
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Pop culture media (especially police procedural dramas in this case) feature endless examples of characters with various conditions eventually culminating in a scene with low 2nd-rate acting where there's a shivering, tearful exposition about how they tried to be good, but the "urges" were too powerful and other such nonsense.

This sadly echoes the entire way we approach the nature of any sexual violence. Constantly reinforcing the idea that some preternatural urges come along causing you to "lose control" basically gives people the exact excuse they need to decide at a certain level of arousal all the rules go away. I don't doubt some people report that from their perspective, but its a farcical ego defense mechanism. It is a rationalization for dominating another person (sex is the instrument, not the real goal). The way these kinds of programs leave the rationalization hanging there without thorough rebuttal is just shameful.

Even journalistic media, who long since have let selling contentious drama override editorial diligence, happily present psychological profile data without any sense of responsibility for clarifying what connection that has.

Some of this thread drift could be considered pedantic, sure. There's also the issue that most sexual violence threads, its based around a few court rulings towards the end of the case and so the drip of updates is limited. It's not a moving narrative like some other threads where the discussion stays grounded in things that happened very recently. By contrast these discussions sprawl out into the ether. I think this particular thread will sit somewhere in the middle. If drips start coming about the investigation into how this happened, then there will be page-long digressions about the inner workings of the corrections system and "pedantic" discussions about what counts as "appropriate monitoring."

Neither kind of discussion is wrong.

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Old 14th August 2019, 08:52 AM   #508
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
(sex is the instrument, not the real goal).
I've yet to see any convincing proof of this at all.

Some seem to just take it on faith. I'd really like to see the research/evidence that has people so convinced of this.
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Old 14th August 2019, 09:00 AM   #509
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
(sex is the instrument, not the real goal).
How would you know? Seems like part of the goal, at the very least.

As much as I agree that dismissing it as urges that can't be controlled, dismissing it as something that has nothing to do with sex is just as dangerous and misguided.
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Old 14th August 2019, 09:01 AM   #510
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I've yet to see any convincing proof of this at all.

Some seem to just take it on faith. I'd really like to see the research/evidence that has people so convinced of this.
It always strikes me as odd that so many people think they can separate sex from other drives. Why would sex be isolated, a thing apart from other motivations?
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Old 14th August 2019, 09:01 AM   #511
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I've yet to see any convincing proof of this at all.

Some seem to just take it on faith. I'd really like to see the research/evidence that has people so convinced of this.
Right. Greed is about money. Stealing is about getting stuff or money. Murder is about killing. But somehow rape isn't about sex.
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Old 14th August 2019, 09:06 AM   #512
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Agreed. Saying rape isn't about sex is like saying bank robbery isn't about greed.

True the base desire for all the crimes (maybe all crimes depending on how you want to look at it) is power (or similar concepts) but why some people's manifestation of a need for power comes out as rape and some as bank robbery is because with some people it's about sex and with some people it's about greed.

But "Sex crimes aren't about sex!" is just another one of those little side discussions that we have to have every time we have the broader discussions because... I don't know.
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Old 14th August 2019, 09:09 AM   #513
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Agreed. Saying rape isn't about sex is like saying bank robbery isn't about greed.

True the base desire for all the crimes (maybe all crimes depending on how you want to look at it) is power (or similar concepts) but why some people's manifestation of a need for power comes out as rape and some as bank robbery is because with some people it's about sex and with some people it's about greed.

But "Sex crimes aren't about sex!" is just another one of those little side discussions that we have to have every time we have the broader discussions because... I don't know.

Because reality is complex and we're trying to discuss extremely complex issues arising from a plane full of people using language (and brains) primarily designed for saying where the best fruit is* and where to run to when you think you might have seen a tiger.


(I think this is a Pratchett idea. It's certainly not mine.)
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Old 14th August 2019, 09:11 AM   #514
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Then why don't we have to have the "Bank Robbery is about power, not greed!" talk every time we discuss a bank robbery?

"Reality is complex and the discussion therefore has to be nuanced and ultra-precise" when it's only whenever we feel like it... isn't really an argument.
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Old 14th August 2019, 09:16 AM   #515
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Then why don't we have to have the "Bank Robbery is about power, not greed!" talk every time we discuss a bank robbery?

"Reality is complex and the discussion therefore has to be nuanced and ultra-precise" when it's only whenever we feel like it... isn't really an argument.
It wasn't really supposed to be an argument. Just a theooy about why we do the same dance every single time. And, to be fair, not a great one.
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Old 14th August 2019, 09:29 AM   #516
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In the back of my mind, I suspected that when I put that bit in that everything outside that parenthetical blurb would all fizzle away.
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Old 14th August 2019, 09:33 AM   #517
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
In the back of my mind, I suspected that when I put that bit in that everything outside that parenthetical blurb would all fizzle away.
Well, I generally don't address things I just agree with. It doesn't make very interesting discussions.

Now, how about you address the objections?
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Old 14th August 2019, 09:41 AM   #518
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Agreed. Saying rape isn't about sex is like saying bank robbery isn't about greed.

True the base desire for all the crimes (maybe all crimes depending on how you want to look at it) is power (or similar concepts) but why some people's manifestation of a need for power comes out as rape and some as bank robbery is because with some people it's about sex and with some people it's about greed.

But "Sex crimes aren't about sex!" is just another one of those little side discussions that we have to have every time we have the broader discussions because... I don't know.
Bank robbery is not about satisfying the need to have a sack full of pieces of paper with pretty designs on them. Getting their hands on a bunch of bills is the instrument, not the goal in and of itself.

I credit you with being able to square the analogy from there.
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Old 14th August 2019, 09:45 AM   #519
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, I generally don't address things I just agree with. It doesn't make very interesting discussions.

Now, how about you address the objections?
Is the goal of the discussion to be interesting?

Which brings me back to everything that's wrong with journalistic media again...

(I keed, I keed! :9)
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Old 14th August 2019, 09:51 AM   #520
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Is the goal of the discussion to be interesting?
Well it helps it being productive, especially in a non-professional environment.

So?
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