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Tags Kentucky incidents , mass shootings , school shootings , shooting incidents

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Old 13th August 2019, 08:32 PM   #1441
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Then it's time to accept that free speech must be curbed for the good of society.
Not buying it.

Of course, if it actually rises to specific threats or specific incitements to violence, yes, but we already do that. If it's the general, "Immigrants are taking over our culture" kind of b.s., that rhetoric is dumb, but making it illegal starts us down a path that ends in a very bad place.


I suppose I would like to see examples of what sort of rhetoric people think ought to be made illegal in order to curb mass shootings. Or if there is some sort of lesser action short of making it criminal, what would you have in mind.

It's all well and good to say we have to do something about thus and such a thing, but the devil is in the details. What is it that people think really ought to be done? in concrete terms? If we give government broad powers to restrict free speech when they think it is necessary, I'll take bets that they will find it necessary to restrict an awful lot of things. That's what powerful people do when given the authority to do it. That way lies madness, or more accurately, an authoritarian government or a dictatorship.


ETA: And, if possible, I would like to discuss this only in the context of what might be done that could reduce mass shootings. If that can't be done, it really ought to go in a different thread.
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Last edited by Meadmaker; 13th August 2019 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 13th August 2019, 09:49 PM   #1442
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Not buying it.
As you've pointed out, we already curb free speech. There are some things that it is illegal to say. You can't incite violence. You can't induce panic. People in general, and America in particular, need to get rid of this whole idea that free speech is sacrosanct. Sites like 8chan should be shut down. YouTube should be banning white supremacist content.

It's never going to be completely solved, obviously, but expanding the illegality of certain kinds of speech is going to help a lot to counter stochastic terrorism. There's another thread crossover for you.
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Old 14th August 2019, 03:09 AM   #1443
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Not buying it.

Of course, if it actually rises to specific threats or specific incitements to violence, yes, but we already do that. If it's the general, "Immigrants are taking over our culture" kind of b.s., that rhetoric is dumb, but making it illegal starts us down a path that ends in a very bad place.
Yep incitement is a BS crime and needs to be stricken from the legal books as being against the first amendment.
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Old 14th August 2019, 04:07 AM   #1444
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
As you've pointed out, we already curb free speech. There are some things that it is illegal to say. You can't incite violence. You can't induce panic. People in general, and America in particular, need to get rid of this whole idea that free speech is sacrosanct. Sites like 8chan should be shut down. YouTube should be banning white supremacist content.

It's never going to be completely solved, obviously, but expanding the illegality of certain kinds of speech is going to help a lot to counter stochastic terrorism. There's another thread crossover for you.
I might be wrong, but I think YouTube already bans white supremacist content.

In my humble opinion, YouTube is a private entity and I would be extremely reluctant to impose any restriction on what they can post on their servers beyond what they already voluntarily restrict themselves. Once you get the government involved in deciding what is and isn't legal to say, a bunch of things become illegal to say.

I guess I would like to see someone cite a specific example of a specific video that YouTube considers acceptable, but that you, or anyone else, thinks the government should step in and make illegal.

And, to yank things back toward the thread topic, what would it accomplish? Last year, the ADL said there were 38 white supremacist killings. Those included 17 by Nick Cruz. They detailed his racist activity in the report, but when he decided to kill a bunch of people, he killed 17 white kids, in an act with no apparent political connection of any sort.

I think the far greater reason for the mass of spree killings in the US is loneliness.

ETA: Combined with easy access to guns.
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Last edited by Meadmaker; 14th August 2019 at 04:14 AM.
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Old 14th August 2019, 05:21 AM   #1445
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I might be wrong, but I think YouTube already bans white supremacist content.

They do! Sometimes more than once:

Quote:
In June 2019, Vikernes's YouTube channel "Thulean Perspective" was removed from the platform. This coincided with an announcement from YouTube that it would be more aggressive in removing extremist content and hate speech which violated its terms of service. Vikernes said he did not know exactly why his channel was removed. Within hours, he had created a new channel and said he would continue to post content. However, Vikernes‘ new channel was removed soon after.
Varg Vikernes: Life after prison (Wikipedia)

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
They detailed his racist activity in the report, but when he decided to kill a bunch of people, he killed 17 white kids, in an act with no apparent political connection of any sort.

Haters gonna hate. They tend to hate 'N-word lovers' even more than N-words. Take a look at Breivik's victims (BBC News).

Quote:
I think the far greater reason for the mass of spree killings in the US is loneliness.

It's not a very good way to make friends, and I think they know that. If they have anything like that in mind it's probably a narcissistic wish for admirers, to impress the other haters in their online communities.
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Last edited by dann; 14th August 2019 at 05:28 AM.
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Old 14th August 2019, 08:18 AM   #1446
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
As you've pointed out, we already curb free speech. There are some things that it is illegal to say. You can't incite violence. You can't induce panic. People in general, and America in particular, need to get rid of this whole idea that free speech is sacrosanct. Sites like 8chan should be shut down. YouTube should be banning white supremacist content.

It's never going to be completely solved, obviously, but expanding the illegality of certain kinds of speech is going to help a lot to counter stochastic terrorism. There's another thread crossover for you.
We're missing a critical requirement for that not to go terribly, terribly wrong.

Given the political immaturity of America overall, I see a system that will go to extraordinary lengths to put a stop to the bigotry and intolerance against protestant evangelical Christianity. Gun owners, also gun owners. Oh, and "patriots" because that one always just sells itself (hump a flag or two).

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 14th August 2019 at 08:19 AM.
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