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Tags airplane incidents , government shutdown

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Old 27th June 2019, 11:12 AM   #281
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I guess Lockheed could maybe crap out a passenger jet loosely based on one of their military transport designs (They tried to sell the L-500, a 1,000 passenger version of the C-5 Galaxy Heavy Transport, to airlines in the late 70s but nobody would bite) and they have had very, very limited success (114 airframes sold) of a civilian version of the venerable old C-130 Hercules.
Miltary transport planes frequently have wings at the top of the plane. This makes it easier to put the body of the plane closer to the ground on landing, which in turn makes it easier to load and unload heavy cargo in places that might not have so much equipment. It also puts the engines higher up which is desirable for places with lower quality runways where you have to worry about debris. But that makes for more noise for passengers compared to wings at the bottom of the plane which can then shield the body from much of the engine noise..
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Old 27th June 2019, 12:43 PM   #282
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I've actually half wondered why no airline has ever tried a "Load from the front, unload from the back but for passengers" design.

I assume there's just not enough money margin in it for the restrictions of the design.
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Old 27th June 2019, 01:32 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I've actually half wondered why no airline has ever tried a "Load from the front, unload from the back but for passengers" design.

I assume there's just not enough money margin in it for the restrictions of the design.

Well there were some aircraft designs that did load and unload passengers though a tail door (called tail airstaris). The B727, Yak 42,
DC9, BAC-111 and the Sud Aviation Caravelle are a few I can think of. Maybe the Vickers VC-10 did as well, but I can't remember.

There are a few air incidents or things that were done precisely because 727's had tail airstair.

1. The US used then to drop supplies through the tail door in Vietnam during the war.

2. Broken Wing used a B727 for their 2012 controlled crash test in the Sonora desert, so that the flight crew could safely bail out through the back

3. DB Cooper infamously hijacked a B727 and extorted $200,000 before escaping by bailing out through the tail airstair. He probably could not have safely bailed out of any other airliner that didn't have one.
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Old 1st July 2019, 02:03 AM   #284
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Boeing’s 737 Max Software Outsourced to $9-an-Hour Engineers

Quote:
It remains the mystery at the heart of Boeing Co.’s 737 Max crisis: how a company renowned for meticulous design made seemingly basic software mistakes leading to a pair of deadly crashes. Longtime Boeing engineers say the effort was complicated by a push to outsource work to lower-paid contractors.

The Max software -- plagued by issues that could keep the planes grounded months longer after U.S. regulators this week revealed a new flaw -- was developed at a time Boeing was laying off experienced engineers and pressing suppliers to cut costs.

Increasingly, the iconic American planemaker and its subcontractors have relied on temporary workers making as little as $9 an hour to develop and test software, often from countries lacking a deep background in aerospace -- notably India.
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Old 1st July 2019, 02:07 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Every piece of news about this that comes out makes Boeing look even worse than before.

They have really screwed the pooch big-time.
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Old 1st July 2019, 02:19 AM   #286
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But their share price has been great.
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Old 1st July 2019, 02:32 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
But their share price has been great.
It doesn't reflect the tsunami of utter failures that caused the recent crash.

Compare that to Bayer who acquired Montesanto's legal trouble (possible cancer-causing products). That stock has tanked and is still falling.

Maybe BA is supported by its military products? I don't know if that's the same company.
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Old 1st July 2019, 10:13 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
I find that very surprising! Just kidding, I don't. When I was still there they were sending more and more work to be done by what was called the Boeing Design Center in Moscow. It was horribly inefficient and when things weren't done on time, who do you suppose got called out on it? Me.

ETA: Not the Moscow in Idaho, either.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:55 AM   #289
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Those following this thread may be interested in this article. Not good news for Boeing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49142761
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Old 29th July 2019, 04:37 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Those following this thread may be interested in this article. Not good news for Boeing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49142761

Quote:
"Mr Dickson said engineers were under pressure to downplay new features on the 737 Max.

He said by classifying them as minor rather than major changes, Boeing would face less scrutiny from the US regulator, the Federal Aviation Administration.

"The goal was to show that those differences were so similar to the previous design that it would not require a major design classification in the certification process. There was a lot of interest and pressure on the certification and analysis engineers in particular, to look at any changes to the Max as minor changes."
Not only this, but passing off the differences as insignificant and not requiring recertification meant that they would not have to type rate pilots, avoiding costly flight sim time. While that would not have been paid by Boeing, it allowed them to make it a selling point for airlines... "buy this aircraft and you won't have to certify your existing pilots to fly it.". That was a very big mistake, as is was shown that the handling characteristics of the 737 Max 8 on climb out was very significantly different from its predecessor.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:04 PM   #291
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About a year ago a broker suggested I buy Boeing stock. I told him no, I used to work there.
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Old 31st July 2019, 09:56 PM   #292
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It just gets worse and worse. Boeing has taken a plane that has an excellent record but has many anachronisms in it from the the 1950's, when the fundamentals of it were first designed. Boeing has pushed it into the 21st century and not remedied them when it could have to save money. All those compromises of profit over safety and modern standards are now being scrutinised very closely. For example, there is no redundacy of the controls. There is still a single cable for the rudder from the cockpit to the rear where the hyrdaulics are. Ancient technology and there is no reason Boeing could not have addressed that earlier other than saving money.
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Old 1st August 2019, 05:59 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
It just gets worse and worse. Boeing has taken a plane that has an excellent record but has many anachronisms in it from the the 1950's, when the fundamentals of it were first designed. Boeing has pushed it into the 21st century and not remedied them when it could have to save money. All those compromises of profit over safety and modern standards are now being scrutinised very closely. For example, there is no redundancy of the controls. There is still a single cable for the rudder from the cockpit to the rear where the hydraulics are. Ancient technology and there is no reason Boeing could not have addressed that earlier other than saving money.
Or is is a matter of "It if ain't broke, don't fix it"?
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Old 1st August 2019, 07:24 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Or is is a matter of "It if ain't broke, don't fix it"?

Redundancy has been proven to have saved lives. It would not have been impossible for Boeing to implement it. New plane designs have to have the redunancy built in.
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Old 1st August 2019, 11:49 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Or is is a matter of "It if ain't broke, don't fix it"?
It might have been true at some point somewhere, but I don't think it applies in most cases anymore. Especially in cross-section of IT and planes.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 12:31 AM   #296
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Boeing has 'persuaded' victims families to give up claims of compensation for about $2,000.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-48953892
(The difference between statuary compensation and the no claim compensation deal.) I am not sure that distraught families really understood the consequences of accepting immediate compensation; for many who may have lost their breadwinner they would not be in an easy immediate position and certainly would have needed some immediate payment.

Boeing has pledged $100,000,000 to help the families but none of the money goes directly to them but to fund support systems.
https://www.dw.com/en/boeing-to-pay-...ies/a-49462963

In comparison the CEO was paid $23,000,000 last year. So the compensation for 346 deaths are just four years pay of the CEO.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 02:27 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Or is is a matter of "It if ain't broke, don't fix it"?
No it's more about the type certification quagmire.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 12:31 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Or is is a matter of "It if ain't broke, don't fix it"?

Even things that ain't broke can be improved.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 08:05 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Even things that ain't broke can be improved.
What was an acceptable risk changes over time to an unacceptable risk. That would be about sixty years by now for the 737.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 10:03 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Even things that ain't broke can be improved.
Like all those changes that Boeing made to 737 including mounting even larger engines.
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Old 3rd August 2019, 06:23 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
What was an acceptable risk changes over time to an unacceptable risk. That would be about sixty years by now for the 737.

Exactly.

The Model A wasn't broke, either.
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Old 3rd August 2019, 06:26 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Like all those changes that Boeing made to 737 including mounting even larger engines.

It wasn't "all those changes ... including mounting even larger engines" that caused the 737 Max crashes.

It wasn't even one specific change.

It was the way that change was tested and handled. Even it could have been done properly.
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Old 3rd August 2019, 08:10 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
It wasn't "all those changes ... including mounting even larger engines" that caused the 737 Max crashes.



It wasn't even one specific change.



It was the way that change was tested and handled. Even it could have been done properly.
MCAS was the trigger issue. Other issues have now been revealed. The FAA has been deliberately compromised to allow Boeing to get away with multiple safety issues.
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Old 4th August 2019, 02:04 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
MCAS was the trigger issue. Other issues have now been revealed. The FAA has been deliberately compromised to allow Boeing to get away with multiple safety issues.

I'm not questioning that, and I think it's deplorable, and I hope that some heads roll ... criminally speaking, that is.

But it wasn't the simple existence of changes which was the problem. It was the way those changes were made, how they were evaluated, and ... as you point out yourself ... the appropriate processes and channels which were bypassed in pursuit of speed and profit over safety.

It isn't that the changes couldn't have been made safely, it's that they weren't, for reasons of simple greed.
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Old 5th August 2019, 03:13 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
What was an acceptable risk changes over time to an unacceptable risk. That would be about sixty years by now for the 737.
Yea everyone was happy with steering columns that stabbed you in the heart in car accidents when it came out, now not so much.
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Old 5th August 2019, 04:24 AM   #306
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This story appeared on AFP but was pulled. In it they claim that two Boeing whistle blowers stated that Boeing knew the disasterous consquences of an MCAS failure and the difficulty of controlling the event.


http://en.rfi.fr/contenu/20190804-be...ompany-culture


It is still on other outlets that copied the story.


Quote:
ven before the Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crashes claimed 346 lives, Boeing flight tests had revealed problems similar to those encountered by pilots on the ill-fated 737 MAX flights.Company officials learned that its MCAS anti-stall system -- which is at the center of both accidents -- activated within minutes of takeoff, repeatedly pushing the nose of the aircraft down even when the plane was operating in normal conditions at lower speed.
This discovery, recounted to AFP by two former Boeing engineers who spoke on the condition of anonymity, suggested that mastering the MCAS was important for safely flying the MAX.
The MCAS should have been closely vetted by regulators, and procedures for operating the system should have been included in plane manuals and highlighted during pilot training.
But none of that happened.
Before the Lion Air disaster in October, the MCAS was not even named in the official documents given to pilots.
In the earliest documents submitted to the Federal Aviation Administration, Boeing said the MCAS would only activate under abnormal conditions, such as a sudden turn at great speed.
Boeing later amended its documents to say MCAS could be activated at lower speeds, but maintained throughout that there were no significant safety changes compared with earlier models.
FAA representatives were present during a test flight when an MCAS problem occurred, according to a regulatory source, but approved the MAX without independently studying or testing the flight system.
Instead, regulators deferred on key aspects of certification to Boeing, allowed under a congressionally-mandated program begun in 2005 while the FAA faced budget pressure.
In essence, Boeing chose the engineers who would inspect its planes in a process rubber-stamped by the agency.
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Old 7th August 2019, 12:37 AM   #307
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Just thought you would enjoy this video from the TopTenz channel. It says that The Boeing 737 Max Crashes And Subsequent Scandal Are Harming Boeing’s Reputation.

https://youtu.be/L4gRWNKyJRs?t=443

I think that if any American airplane manufacturer decides to go into the same market as Boeing then Boeing will be in trouble. The only thing that will save it is that pilots will need a lot of retraining to fly any other type of aircraft.
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Old 7th August 2019, 12:46 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Just thought you would enjoy this video from the TopTenz channel. It says that The Boeing 737 Max Crashes And Subsequent Scandal Are Harming Boeing’s Reputation.

https://youtu.be/L4gRWNKyJRs?t=443

I think that if any American airplane manufacturer decides to go into the same market as Boeing then Boeing will be in trouble. The only thing that will save it is that pilots will need a lot of retraining to fly any other type of aircraft.
I found this video interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7OnNhEziYE

it claims that with the enormous growth in the number of flights (great for the environment!) we will eventually move away from the huge airport hubs served by huge aeroplanes, and will switch to a finer network of smaller airports with smaller planes.

If true, that could provide an opening to competitors that are not able to build these humongous aeroplanes.
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Old 7th August 2019, 01:11 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
This story appeared on AFP but was pulled. In it they claim that two Boeing whistle blowers stated that Boeing knew the disasterous consquences of an MCAS failure and the difficulty of controlling the event.


http://en.rfi.fr/contenu/20190804-be...ompany-culture


It is still on other outlets that copied the story.

"FAA representatives were present during a test flight when an MCAS problem occurred, according to a regulatory source, but approved the MAX without independently studying or testing the flight system. "


JESUS H TAP-DANCING CHRIST!!!! REALLY?
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Old 7th August 2019, 02:17 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Or is is a matter of "It if ain't broke, don't fix it"?
Also the old 737 design was obsolete and facing competition from more modern, capable and fuel efficient Airbuses. Hence the attempt to stick new engines on the airframe, call it a variant, and skimp on testing to save money and time.
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Old 7th August 2019, 02:19 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post

"FAA representatives were present during a test flight when an MCAS problem occurred, according to a regulatory source, but approved the MAX without independently studying or testing the flight system. "


JESUS H TAP-DANCING CHRIST!!!! REALLY?
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Old 7th August 2019, 02:30 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
I found this video interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7OnNhEziYE

it claims that with the enormous growth in the number of flights (great for the environment!) we will eventually move away from the huge airport hubs served by huge aeroplanes, and will switch to a finer network of smaller airports with smaller planes.

If true, that could provide an opening to competitors that are not able to build these humongous aeroplanes.
There are regulations came in a few years that say you can fly a two engined aircraft longer distances away from an airport. So now this type of aircraft, such as a 737 max, are in big demand. There is no demand for four engined aircraft.
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Old 7th August 2019, 07:23 AM   #313
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If either Lockheed Martin or Northrop Grumman wants to take the long view, they should start designing a hydrogen-powered alternative to the A320 and 737 series.
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Old 7th August 2019, 08:16 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
If either Lockheed Martin or Northrop Grumman wants to take the long view, they should start designing a hydrogen-powered alternative to the A320 and 737 series.
Maybe, though I would wonder if that would make a lot of sense instead of synthesizing hydrocarbon based fuels. The pressure vessels or liquid hydrogen would be pretty tricky and hydrocarbons can always be synthesized for the purpose.
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Old 7th August 2019, 09:04 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Maybe, though I would wonder if that would make a lot of sense instead of synthesizing hydrocarbon based fuels. The pressure vessels or liquid hydrogen would be pretty tricky and hydrocarbons can always be synthesized for the purpose.

I'm no expert, but I don't believe synthesizing hydrocarbons will be economically feasible until we have either thorium MSRs or fusion power, and those are likely still decades away from widespread adoption.
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Old 7th August 2019, 09:08 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
I'm no expert, but I don't believe synthesizing hydrocarbons will be economically feasible until we have either thorium MSRs or fusion power, and those are likely still decades away from widespread adoption.
For surface transport that makes sense, but for air I don't know.
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Old 7th August 2019, 09:17 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
I think that if any American airplane manufacturer decides to go into the same market as Boeing then Boeing will be in trouble. The only thing that will save it is that pilots will need a lot of retraining to fly any other type of aircraft.
I think the problem is that the initial cost of designing and developing a new passenger plane (especially a large one capable of replacing things like the Boeing long-haul jets), then finding a market, would probably be prohibitive. You would need a lot of money and a lot of expertise.
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Old 7th August 2019, 09:27 AM   #318
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Apparently Boeing is having troubles finding places to store their 737 Max jets that have been completed but not delivered to customers. So, they're storing them in the employee parking lots.

https://www.businessinsider.com/boei...-packed-2019-6
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Old 7th August 2019, 09:44 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Apparently Boeing is having troubles finding places to store their 737 Max jets that have been completed but not delivered to customers. So, they're storing them in the employee parking lots.

https://www.businessinsider.com/boei...-packed-2019-6
that is kinda hilarious.

Boeing might be better of giving them away for free - maybe Trump can afford his airline after all!
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Old 7th August 2019, 11:22 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
that is kinda hilarious.

Boeing might be better of giving them away for free - maybe Trump can afford his airline after all!
Why would any airline accept delivery of a grounded airliner? Until they are allowed to fly again they are not going to be delivering any of them.
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