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Old 19th June 2019, 06:07 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Anyone who hasn't read at least Mein Kampf has no business trying to dictate to others what Nazi ideology "actually standards for". If someone feels they want to talk authoritatively on the subject, then there's also a myriad of other foundational writings that need to be considered, particularly those of Jakob Graf, Eugen Fischer, Hans F. K. Günther, and of course the Nazi's inner circle (Goebbels, Goering, Rosenberg, Himmler, etc.). And, of course, they should research the volkisch movements that spawned the Nazi party.

Anyone who says that the Holocaust wasn't presaged in their writings is either profoundly ignorant, or a flat-out denialist.
Have YOU read Mein Kampf? Do you have any pull quotes from that book or any of these sources that support your understanding of Nazi ideology? If the murder of millions is as much a part of Nazi ideology as you say it is, it shouldn't be too difficult to find explicit references. Or references to passages that you believe can be interpreted as calling for mass murder.
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Old 19th June 2019, 11:06 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
No, I don't remember. I wasn't born yet. I don't even remember the Kennedy assassination.

In the grand scheme of things, the holocaust was one of many genocides that have been perpetrated throughout history. The fact that it happened doesn't prove that the nazi ideology explicitly calls for the genocidal murder of millions of my fellow citizens. I have read the Platform of the National-Sopcialist German Workers' Party and the Twelve Theses and don't see any explicit calls for the death of any particular ethnic, racial, or religious group of people as such. I haven't read Mein Kampf, The Myth of the Twentieth Century or This Time the World any other book that promotes the nazi ideology. So my knowledge is incomplete.

I'm not saying that the holocaust was not intentional or that the nazis are not responsible for the holocaust. But the holocaust isn't proof that nazi ideology explicitly calls for the murder of millions of my fellow citizens any more than the holodomor is proof that mass murder is part and parcel of the socialist ideology.
Oh my. I guess the word "explicitly" is doing most of your heavy lifting for you.
But you need to look a little more closely and also think through the practical implications of this ideology from the stated goals.

I could mention The Final Solution or Generalplan Ost as very explicit and specific plans to commit genocide, but even your own links have statements that, while not "explicitly" calling for genocide, imply that genocide might be a logical or necessary or expedient means to achieve the stated goals.

Quote:
4. Our most dangerous enemy is the Jew and those who are his slaves.
By defining Jews as "our most dangerous enemy", genocide becomes a logical policy.
Quote:
4. Only Nationals (Volksgenossen) can be Citizens of the State. Only persons of German blood can be Nationals, regardless of religious affiliation. No Jew can therefore be a German National.
You can see how this sort of thing provided the ideological basis for later concrete plans for genocide like the Final Solution and Generalplan Ost.
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Old 20th June 2019, 02:24 AM   #163
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There is also the Blut und Boden ideology of National Socialism and the books by guys like Richard Walther Darré, but I guess they also wouldn't be explicit enough for CaptainHowdy.
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Old 20th June 2019, 03:25 AM   #164
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It really doesn't matter one iota what was written a hundred years ago. The Nazis today celebrate the Nazis that got into power and what they did so of course any Nazi today is for the killing of millions of their fellow citizens. They wouldn't have chosen to be Nazis if they weren't.
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Old 20th June 2019, 03:27 AM   #165
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Interesting that CaptainHowdy's posts in this thread show the exact tactics that are at the heart of the topic of this thread.
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Old 20th June 2019, 04:46 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Well, you're going to have to tell me what you think is equivalent. The Pittsburgh Synagogue shooting killed 11 last year. No congresspeople were wounded, however. How does that compare in your book?
How does one do the arithmetic if one considers the victims subhuman?
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Old 20th June 2019, 06:46 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Do universities do it, though? Is it actually de rigeur for the Harvard admissions process? Aside from this one report of this one kid getting denied, is there any evidence that this is a standard practice that Harvard applies to every applicant?

Well, since people insist on being spoon-fed, instead of spending 15 seconds searching on Google, yes, the practice is widespread and de rigeur in many cases. It also seems to depend on the university and applicant pool.

The first two results:

https://www.usnews.com/education/bes...media-accounts
https://www.insidehighered.com/admis...dia-applicants

It looks like the practice may actually be declining, but it's still very common.

It's still very common for employers, however.

https://www.careerbuilder.com/advice...ia-survey-2017
https://www.glassdoor.com/blog/what-...-social-media/
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Old 20th June 2019, 06:52 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
There's also this post here that qualifies as this type of terrorism with the bonus that when it was called out it was written off as some type of edgelord humour.

Apparently Canadians are just as incapable of understanding satire as Americans are.

Quote:
Of course there's always the alternative that maybe, just maybe the term "Stochasctic Terrorism" is a little bit stupid.

Those with actual expertise in the field don't seem to think so. I'll stick with what the experts say, rather than some random anonymous denialist trying to play schoolyard gotcha games.
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Old 20th June 2019, 07:24 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Apparently Canadians are just as incapable of understanding satire as Americans are.
Oh....so it's "satire" now that it's coming from the left. Screw that, it's terrorism, the OP says so.

gotcha.
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Old 20th June 2019, 07:52 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Oh....so it's "satire" now that it's coming from the left. Screw that, it's terrorism, the OP says so.

gotcha.
Are you doing the strawman act on accident, or on purpose?

Luchog is an effective communicator. If you think they're saying, "The left is always innocent in these cases," then work on your listening skills.
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Old 20th June 2019, 08:01 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
There's also this post here that qualifies as this type of terrorism with the bonus that when it was called out it was written off as some type of edgelord humour.

Of course there's always the alternative that maybe, just maybe the term "Stochasctic Terrorism" is a little bit stupid.
Really? What about the model of ISIS websites encouraging supporters to commit acts of terror but with no coordination, just information on techniques and encouragement?
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Old 20th June 2019, 08:02 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Are you doing the strawman act on accident, or on purpose?

Luchog is an effective communicator. If you think they're saying, "The left is always innocent in these cases," then work on your listening skills.
Can you think of any reason, any reason at all why someone would go down the it's only satire road on a thread that's trying to equate satire with terrorism ?

Just suck it up and admit it, the post is what's described in the OP.
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Old 20th June 2019, 08:04 AM   #173
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Okay this is becoming an on-going thing is a lot of different discussion.

It's not satire/parody/Poe/trolling/whatever if it's functionally identical to doing the thing sincerely and leads to the same outcome.
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Old 20th June 2019, 08:05 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Really? What about the model of ISIS websites encouraging supporters to commit acts of terror but with no coordination, just information on techniques and encouragement?
What about them ? ISIS is a designated terrorist group, right ?

ETA Are these sites trying to pass themselves off as edgelord humour ?

Last edited by Stout; 20th June 2019 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 20th June 2019, 08:10 AM   #175
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Exclamation NSFW meme



Came across this text-based meme credited to Josh Wheeler on a social networking website just a couple weeks back.

Laughed a bit, thought about reposting, then wondered whether we might be doing stochastic terrorism or not.
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Old 20th June 2019, 08:14 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Can you think of any reason, any reason at all why someone would go down the it's only satire road on a thread that's trying to equate satire with terrorism ?

Just suck it up and admit it, the post is what's described in the OP.
Because sometimes it's satire, and sometimes it's not. Anyone who tries to treat it as all-or-nothing is an idiot.

Do you really believe that this sketch is the type of thing that Luchog is warning about in the OP, or would Luchog call that satire?
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Old 20th June 2019, 08:19 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Because sometimes it's satire, and sometimes it's not. Anyone who tries to treat it as all-or-nothing is an idiot.
Who gets to make that call ?
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Old 20th June 2019, 08:22 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Who gets to make that call ?
This is such a thought terminating cliche. It's meaningless.

Every change, every rule, every maintaining of the status quo, every change of the status quo is someone "making a call." It's not a new or terrifying concept. The entire point of "society" is to organize who gets to make calls and how we make them.

"Okay but look... I can still hangwring some more!" is not the answer to everything, or indeed anything.
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Old 20th June 2019, 08:23 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post

The phenomenon was first comprehensively defined and explained in an article in DailyKos. Stochastic Terrorism: Triggering the shooters.

The definition of stochastic terrorism is, in brief, "The use of mass public communication, usually against a particular individual or group, which incites or inspires acts of terrorism which are statistically probable but happen seemingly at random."

.
The quoted definition doesn't appear in the article you link to. The defining property of terrorism is surely that it is intended to generate fear in a large group. Targeting a specific individual seems to run counter to that aim, so, while it may be described as incitement to murder or some such, calling it "stochastic terrorism" makes as much sense as "dwarf planet".
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Old 20th June 2019, 08:39 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Oh....so it's "satire" now that it's coming from the left. Screw that, it's terrorism, the OP says so.

gotcha.
A classic example of someone simply ignoring open hatred, because "memes" or whatever.

Thank you, Stout, you have demonstrated the problem perfectly, please leave the stage.
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Old 20th June 2019, 08:42 AM   #181
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I have a nice, solipsistic policy that works perfectly for me regarding "satire."

If I can't recognize your "satire" as such, then it isn't satire. If it seems to me like you mean it, then you mean it.


I'm only half-joking.
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Old 20th June 2019, 09:26 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Have YOU read Mein Kampf? Do you have any pull quotes from that book or any of these sources that support your understanding of Nazi ideology? If the murder of millions is as much a part of Nazi ideology as you say it is, it shouldn't be too difficult to find explicit references. Or references to passages that you believe can be interpreted as calling for mass murder.
Really?

The Holocaust happened. There was no point to it, apart from fulfilling Nazi ideology. Hitler was pretty clear, Nazi propaganda was clear.

Alternatively, what Darat said.
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It really doesn't matter one iota what was written a hundred years ago. The Nazis today celebrate the Nazis that got into power and what they did so of course any Nazi today is for the killing of millions of their fellow citizens. They wouldn't have chosen to be Nazis if they weren't.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Interesting that CaptainHowdy's posts in this thread show the exact tactics that are at the heart of the topic of this thread.
I hadn't actually thought to see the argument that the Nazis were just misunderstood hippies who inadvertently murdered millions of people, not just Jews.
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Old 20th June 2019, 11:12 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Who gets to make that call ?
Anyone capable of distinguishing intent, based on context. So you can sit this one out.
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Old 20th June 2019, 11:37 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Because sometimes it's satire, and sometimes it's not. Anyone who tries to treat it as all-or-nothing is an idiot.

Do you really believe that this sketch is the type of thing that Luchog is warning about in the OP, or would Luchog call that satire?
Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Who gets to make that call ?
Well context is important. If you have a history of promoting hate then it's probably real.
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This is such a thought terminating cliche. It's meaningless.

Every change, every rule, every maintaining of the status quo, every change of the status quo is someone "making a call." It's not a new or terrifying concept. The entire point of "society" is to organize who gets to make calls and how we make them.

"Okay but look... I can still hangwring some more!" is not the answer to everything, or indeed anything.

Well said
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Old 20th June 2019, 01:22 PM   #185
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A. Who will decide who is a "stochastic Terrorist" and who is not? As the Romans said, Who Will Watch The Watchers?
B. I am really scared that so many people on a website allegedly devoted to skepticism seem willing to throw free speech out the window.
C. Forgive me if I think that for some this just a warmup exercise to eventually banning all who oppose their ideology.
I propose that if in fighting Nazis we become Stalinists nothing is really gained.
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Old 20th June 2019, 01:26 PM   #186
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We're going to hangwring about where to draw the line ourselves into another Reich.
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Old 20th June 2019, 01:30 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
We're going to hangwring about where to draw the line ourselves into another Reich.
And turning ourselves into another version of Stalin's Russia is any better?
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Old 20th June 2019, 01:36 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And turning ourselves into another version of Stalin's Russia is any better?
Yeah because those are only two options. Just pick the direction you want the slippery slope to go but non-slippery slopes (or whatever the opposite to a slippery slope is... good traction hill? Whatever) don't exist.
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Old 20th June 2019, 01:54 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
We're going to hangwring about where to draw the line ourselves into another Reich.
No, we really aren't.

We can't throw out the bill of rights on behalf of chicken little.
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Old 20th June 2019, 01:59 PM   #190
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The scary rise of the extreme right has fourd it's reaction;the rise of the extreme left;Both have total contempt for basic freedoms in pursuit of their ideology. Both are bad news.
t
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Old 20th June 2019, 02:02 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Anyone capable of distinguishing intent, based on context.
I think the problem with that approach in the context of this thread is that one troll's satire is another lone wolf's call to violent action.
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Old 20th June 2019, 02:40 PM   #192
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You people realize that people have been convicted for things like recruiting for ISIS, attempting to hire hitmen, and so forth? If your ability to infer intent and meaning is so weak that you think that maybe a bunch of those folks went to prison for trolling, then seriously, you need to sit this out.
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Old 20th June 2019, 02:48 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay this is becoming an on-going thing is a lot of different discussion.

It's not satire/parody/Poe/trolling/whatever if it's functionally identical to doing the thing sincerely and leads to the same outcome.

Context is your friend.

And yes, some of the edgelord types do try to pretend it's parody or satire; but in context it's very easy to give the lie to their claims. Choice of target is an important thing to consider.

Of course, Americans (and certain Canadians) do seem to have a problem understanding satire and parody in any context. I guess because most of them are so extremist that it's hard to come up with anything so utterly exaggerated that they don't seriously believe it.
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Last edited by luchog; 20th June 2019 at 02:58 PM.
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Old 20th June 2019, 03:53 PM   #194
I Am The Scum
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Interestingly, Shaun (the lefty youtuber) posted a video earlier today about white supremacy. His two main points are:

1. Spotting racists isn't really that difficult for those that pay attention.
2. The distinction between actual racists and pretend racists is morally insignificant.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 20th June 2019, 04:05 PM   #195
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Interestingly, Shaun (the lefty youtuber) posted a video earlier today about white supremacy. His two main points are:

1. Spotting racists isn't really that difficult for those that pay attention.
2. The distinction between actual racists and pretend racists is morally insignificant.
A racist is anyone that you think is a racist.
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Old 20th June 2019, 04:29 PM   #196
I Am The Scum
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
A racist is anyone that you think is a racist.
You're still not funny, William.
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Old 20th June 2019, 05:10 PM   #197
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
You're still not funny, William.
Having you think that I am funny is the only thing on my bucket list.
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Old 20th June 2019, 06:43 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
A classic example of someone simply ignoring open hatred, because "memes" or whatever.

Thank you, Stout, you have demonstrated the problem perfectly, please leave the stage.
You must have missed that open hatred I quoted or maybe you just like it and agree with it. Gas all the racists. Trump supporters are racists, right ? I could have sworn I read that somewhere on this forum.

We can start with them.

So far I've given you Gas the Jews, throwing acid in someone's face and gassing all the racists maybe you could enlighten us all and post some examples of what pass your exacting standards for what constitutes stochastic terrorism.
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Old 20th June 2019, 11:37 PM   #199
luchog
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
You must have missed that open hatred I quoted or maybe you just like it and agree with it. Gas all the racists. Trump supporters are racists, right ? I could have sworn I read that somewhere on this forum.

We can start with them.

Wow, it cannot be comfortable living in a vacuum like that. The lack of oxygen has clearly taken its toll.

Once you're able to breathe real-world air again, these might help:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_satire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Context_(language_use)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_(social_sciences)

Quote:
So far I've given you Gas the Jews, throwing acid in someone's face and gassing all the racists maybe you could enlighten us all and post some examples of what pass your exacting standards for what constitutes stochastic terrorism.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6#post12721296

Pay particular attention to the references in the linked articles and video essays.
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Old 21st June 2019, 01:28 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Really?

The Holocaust happened.
No duh!

Quote:
There was no point to it, apart from fulfilling Nazi ideology.
Just saying that there was no point to the holocaust apart from fulfilling Nazi ideology doesn't answer the question. I know you believe this but I want to know why.

Quote:
But Hitler was pretty clear, Nazi propaganda was clear.
Where do you find this clarity?

Quote:
I hadn't actually thought to see the argument that the Nazis were just misunderstood hippies who inadvertently murdered millions of people, not just Jews.
Probably because that's kind of a stupid argument. Hippies?
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