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Tags police misconduct charges , shooting incidents

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Old 19th June 2019, 10:10 PM   #41
Puppycow
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
As I suspected, the officer has not yet been interviewed by the criminal investigators (although he has submitted to an administrative interview).

Quote:
Winslow, the officer’s attorney, declined Tuesday to confirm his client’s name but said he has never been involved in a shooting. He said they had not decided yet if the officer will sit down for a voluntary interview with Corona police, who are conducting the criminal investigation.
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Old 20th June 2019, 04:33 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
As I suspected, the officer has not yet been interviewed by the criminal investigators (although he has submitted to an administrative interview).
Timely interviews are for little people. The cop will make his statement after he reviews the video and decides what serves his needs best.
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Old 20th June 2019, 04:38 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
He wasn't mentally disabled, he was schizophrenic. Schizophrenia is a psychotic disorder, not a disability.
Based on the reporting of the story, I have no qualms using the term disabled. The man appears to have been incapable of living an independent life and was heavily reliant on his parents as caretakers. If that doesn't qualify as disabled, I don't know what does.
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Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 20th June 2019 at 04:44 AM. Reason: changed to past tense, since the man was shot dead
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Old 20th June 2019, 05:07 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Los Angeles Times
Kenneth French of Riverside lived with his parents and had the mental capacity of a teenager, said his cousin, Rick Shureih, in a phone interview with the Los Angeles Times on Sunday night.

This doesn't make sense given the other things said about him. We have read about: nonverbal; schizophrenic; mental illness; requires vigilant guardianship.

Putting aside jokes, those are not things that are generally associated with "mental capacity of a teenager".
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Old 20th June 2019, 05:30 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
This doesn't make sense given the other things said about him. We have read about: nonverbal; schizophrenic; mental illness; requires vigilant guardianship.

Putting aside jokes, those are not things that are generally associated with "mental capacity of a teenager".
That statement was made by the French's cousin who I venture to say knows next to nothing about the French's medical condition.
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Old 20th June 2019, 06:34 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
This doesn't make sense given the other things said about him. We have read about: nonverbal; schizophrenic; mental illness; requires vigilant guardianship.

Putting aside jokes, those are not things that are generally associated with "mental capacity of a teenager".
Mental and emotional illnesses are way too complicated to make any such simple characterizations. They are also usually very distinct from developmental or injury related disorders that affect intellectual abilities. One can easily be nonverbal and have an exceedingly high intellectual capacity. Schizophrenia has nothing to do with "mental capacity" and schizophrenics have the same range of intellectual abilities and mental skills as any other population (perhaps on average slightly higher if I am remembering correctly). Nor does either of these illnesses require "vigilant guardianship" per se: that depends on the particular manifestation of the illness in that specific person. Many schizophrenics are able to lead fully independent lives.

The particular individual appears to have had severe enough mental/emotional problems that he did need close assistance by family, but likely due to problems with his ability to deal with the world around him in a rational and functional manner. Probably not because of a low "IQ."
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Old 20th June 2019, 06:46 AM   #47
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At least one of those articles claims that the officer was knocked unconscious prior to the shooting; and that the incident was caught on security camera. That is conceivably a fair amount of force prior to the shooting; after which the off-duty officer may well have felt that his daughter was in danger. While the mentally disabled suffer hugely disproportionate rates of police violence, this isn't actually a police action. I'm going to withhold judgment on this one until more information actually comes out.

Last edited by Shadowdweller; 20th June 2019 at 06:53 AM.
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Old 20th June 2019, 07:55 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
At least one of those articles claims that the officer was knocked unconscious .....
Maybe, in addition to guns, off duty officers ought to be required to wear helmets.
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Old 20th June 2019, 07:57 AM   #49
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Do we ever hearof toxicology reports in police shootings? Alcohol in this case?
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Old 20th June 2019, 11:52 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Maybe, in addition to guns, off duty officers ought to be required to wear helmets.
I was never able to verify the claim. But a friend of mine once claimed that the mortality rates of American soldiers sent to Iraq/Afghanistan had been found by the CDC to actually be lower than that of the general American (USAian) population. On account of 1) a lower and healthier average age, and 2) the consistent use of protective gear such as helmets. So....maybe they actually should.
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Old 20th June 2019, 01:17 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
I was never able to verify the claim. But a friend of mine once claimed that the mortality rates of American soldiers sent to Iraq/Afghanistan had been found by the CDC to actually be lower than that of the general American (USAian) population. On account of 1) a lower and healthier average age, and 2) the consistent use of protective gear such as helmets. So....maybe they actually should.
I didn't hear it as America in general, but compared to the age/sex related deaths in America's Deadly Seven Cities. Take those seven cities out of the national murder rate and we have a normal murder rate compared to the rest of the world.
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Old 20th June 2019, 01:21 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I didn't hear it as America in general, but compared to the age/sex related deaths in America's Deadly Seven Cities. Take those seven cities out of the national murder rate and we have a normal murder rate compared to the rest of the world.
And take the two largest cities out of the stats for every other country and the US would likely still have a higher murder rate. So?
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Old 20th June 2019, 05:49 PM   #53
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Nice police state you have there.
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Old 20th June 2019, 07:33 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Based on the reporting of the story, I have no qualms using the term disabled. The man appears to have been incapable of living an independent life and was heavily reliant on his parents as caretakers. If that doesn't qualify as disabled, I don't know what does.
Yes, it sounds like his particular suite of mental disorders and intellectual impairments contributed to a disabled life, but that's not the same thing as saying that schizophrenia is a disability. Like I said, as long as they stick to a good treatment plan, schizophrenics can and do live relatively unimpaired lives.

My main issue is the way people, including the New York Times and Washington Post use imprecise and misleading language around mental illness. It contributes to misunderstandings and assumptions. The worst example of this (which may not have occurred in this case but which I present as an example) is the conflation of psychotic with psychopathic. They're two very different things. I think it's Alfred Hitchcock's fault.
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Old 20th June 2019, 08:33 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
This is absurd. Even in this highly favorable story the cop's attorney is peddling, I see no reason why the officer should not have been arrested on the spot. Even if you buy the story that the mentally disabled man shoved the officer so hard that it caused him to lose consciousness and thus be justifiable cause to use deadly force, two other people were shot that were not engaged in violence.

At the very least, two counts of criminal negligence occurred. No justification has been offered why the shooting of both parents was not, at the very least, criminal negligence, if not aggravated assault or attempted murder.

You can be sure that if an lawfully armed citizen killed an unarmed man and injured two others he would be arrested on the spot. There is no collateral damage exemption in self-defense scenarios.

Cops truly are first class citizens. Under a similar fact pattern, an ordinary citizen would be starting in a very deep hole and have a long climb out to prove their innocence. Cops circle the wagons and it's the burden of society to prove that their violence isn't justified. Disgusting.
Just a logic issue: If you are unconscious then you can't use any force. You're unconscious!
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Old 21st June 2019, 01:47 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
I was never able to verify the claim. But a friend of mine once claimed that the mortality rates of American soldiers sent to Iraq/Afghanistan had been found by the CDC to actually be lower than that of the general American (USAian) population. On account of 1) a lower and healthier average age, and 2) the consistent use of protective gear such as helmets. So....maybe they actually should.
I think that it is the general public that need protection from the off-duty cops that are shooting them.
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Old 24th June 2019, 06:26 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Just a logic issue: If you are unconscious then you can't use any force. You're unconscious!
I wouldn't worry too much about the logic of it, since odds are good it's just a post-hoc rationalization why it isn't a crime to gun down three unarmed people at a Costco if you're a cop.
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Old 24th June 2019, 07:53 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Just a logic issue: If you are unconscious then you can't use any force. You're unconscious!
This is the part that got me as well. It makes absolutely no sense even in the slightest. I read the article 2-3 times just to make sure I wasn't missing something.

So he gets pushed in the back and "briefly loses consciousness". Ok, fine. Then he wakes up, without have any idea of what happened, and just starts blasting these people. First off, if he got pushed in the back, how the **** does he know who pushed him? If he blacked out, then wouldn't he wake up confused? Concussed perhaps? Wondering what happened? In this case, he just wakes up and starts "pew pew" all over the place. Including at innocent people trying to defuse the situation.

Put him in jail as mentioned previously for negligent homicide x2. Nothing presented thus far should give him the right to shoot someone. Even if he was pushed like....super duper hard, the attack was not ongoing. Especially if he lost consciousness and suffered no more physical damage until he woke up. This is on the cop, and he should probably get ready for a long trip away from home.
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Old 24th June 2019, 08:17 AM   #59
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It's hard to say what he may have been thinking. He was holding his child and was somehow knocked or pushed from behind. If he lost consciousness it was probably because his head hit the hard floor. Who knows what he saw when he came to. He may have thought that this is an organized child abduction by three pedophiles. Not an innocent but highly-odd son and his caretaker parents. Instead a violent child stealing crew.

Who knows what he thought? Do you think his thought was, "I'm going to shoot three innocent people right in front of my child because, well, because why the hell should I not do that?"?
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Old 24th June 2019, 08:21 AM   #60
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Maybe it wasn't a push knocking him down and instead was a fierce sucker punch causing unconsciousness before he hit the floor.
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Old 24th June 2019, 08:27 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It's hard to say what he may have been thinking.
He can think whatever he wants, whenever he wants to think it, as long as that thought doesn't involve the murder of 1 and the harming of 2 more.

Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
He was holding his child and was somehow knocked or pushed from behind. If he lost consciousness it was probably because his head hit the hard floor. Who knows what he saw when he came to. He may have thought that this is an organized child abduction by three pedophiles. Not an innocent but highly-odd son and his caretaker parents. Instead a violent child stealing crew.
I seriously don't think this passes the sniff. He got pushed in the back while sampling food. He was holding his son, and he woke up with his son still there. Getting pushed in the back would cause you to lunge forward, I'm not sure how he blacked out (whiplash maybe?), and we'll have to wait to see the video.

Do you feel that's a reasonable reaction to have when pushed? You feel you have the right to pull out a loaded weapon and shoot someone on the off chance that it might be a super organized child abduction ring that's taking place in the middle of a superstore while standing in line with multiple other people? That's a logical conclusion to come to? The best step for the people to abduct your child is to make a huge show of pushing you hard enough to cause you to black out? Weird.

Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Who knows what he thought?
Or if he even did, amiright?

Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Do you think his thought was, "I'm going to shoot three innocent people right in front of my child because, well, because why the hell should I not do that?"?
No, I think his though was, "How dare you push me when I'm holding my child?" Which caused him to get pissed off and then he shot people.

In fact, check this out. I even have 2 words to explain it, Negligence (he didn't even survey the situation), homicide (yeah, a person is dead because of him). Yup, fits pretty well if you ask me.
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Old 24th June 2019, 08:29 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Maybe it wasn't a push knocking him down and instead was a fierce sucker punch causing unconsciousness before he hit the floor.
mAYbE iT wuz AlIEnZ?!?!?!

Yeah, it's called situational awareness. I think that might actually be somewhere in a cops training protocol. Like, I don't know, maybe before you pull a gun and start shooting people you take a quick second to process data.

But yeah, yours works too.
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Old 24th June 2019, 08:32 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
No, I think his thought was, "How dare you push me when I'm holding my child?" Which caused him to get pissed off and then he shot people.
Oh my! You and I are not going to be able to converse with each other on this incident.
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Old 24th June 2019, 08:48 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Oh my! You and I are not going to be able to converse with each other on this incident.
Ok
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Old 24th June 2019, 09:18 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
....
Who knows what he thought? Do you think his thought was, "I'm going to shoot three innocent people right in front of my child because, well, because why the hell should I not do that?"?
The thing is that it doesn't matter what he thought. He had no justification or rationalization for opening fire at three unarmed people in a crowded store. There is no evidence or claim that he identified himself as a police officer and ordered them to comply.
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Old 24th June 2019, 09:25 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The thing is that it doesn't matter what he thought. He had no justification or rationalization for opening fire at three unarmed people in a crowded store. There is no evidence or claim that he identified himself as a police officer and ordered them to comply.
There actually is a claim that he identified himself, but you're absolutely right. It's going to be tough to play the "I was super scared" card with this one. He was in a pubic grocery store, and suffered no physical damage after the initial push.
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Old 24th June 2019, 09:52 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
He wasn't mentally disabled, he was schizophrenic. Schizophrenia is a psychotic disorder, not a disability.
Afaik, schizophrenia can become a disability if it affects your day to day living, as far as claiming disability benefits is concerned anyway.

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Old 24th June 2019, 10:03 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Afaik, schizophrenia can become a disability if affects your day to day living, as far as claiming disability benefits is concerned anyway.
Exactly. I believe the important point is that schizophrenia is itself a psychotic disorder. Depending on the specific manifestation and intensity of the disorder, many people with it can still find ways of functioning in their day to day lives (perhaps with pharmacological assistance). Under these circumstances it would not be a "disability." However other people have sufficiently severe symptoms that cannot be adequately treated and that do disrupt their ability to function in society (due to limitations of the drugs themselves, lack of access to appropriate treatment, or and unwillingness to undergo treatment). These individuals would be defined as "disabled."

Just as having impaired vision can be disabling or not depending on its severity and its precise nature.
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Old 24th June 2019, 10:15 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The thing is that it doesn't matter what he thought.
It might matter in a courtroom or formal hearing if it can be reasonably argued that he thought his child's life was in imminent danger.

"If I don't immediately shoot these violent criminal people they will kill my child." Or something like that.

The argument would be judged with relation to justifiable homicide.
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Old 24th June 2019, 10:24 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
This is the part that got me as well. It makes absolutely no sense even in the slightest. I read the article 2-3 times just to make sure I wasn't missing something.

So he gets pushed in the back and "briefly loses consciousness". Ok, fine. Then he wakes up, without have any idea of what happened, and just starts blasting these people. First off, if he got pushed in the back, how the **** does he know who pushed him? If he blacked out, then wouldn't he wake up confused? Concussed perhaps? Wondering what happened? In this case, he just wakes up and starts "pew pew" all over the place. Including at innocent people trying to defuse the situation.
Contrary to the movies, loss of consciousness from a concussion is frequently very brief and/or incomplete. It can be more like being "stunned" or "dazed" where the victim loses full awareness but isn't actually asleep. It can be accompanied by dissociation where the victim loses track and memory of what they were thinking or doing....even though they never stopped doing or thinking. Concussions can be caused by force that is NOT directly applied to the head.
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Old 24th June 2019, 11:32 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
Contrary to the movies, loss of consciousness from a concussion is frequently very brief and/or incomplete. It can be more like being "stunned" or "dazed" where the victim loses full awareness but isn't actually asleep. It can be accompanied by dissociation where the victim loses track and memory of what they were thinking or doing....even though they never stopped doing or thinking. Concussions can be caused by force that is NOT directly applied to the head.
Right, stunned or dazed. Which would imply some form of confusion after the incident.

Even if we take into account your definition it still doesn't give him any reason to reach for a gun and shoot. I get that William keeps busting out this random ass "but they were after my kids!" style of argument, despite there being absolutely no evidence that he thought that at all. Either way, being pushed, stunned, dazed, etc. doesn't give you a right to shoot someone. Let alone fire your weapon dangerously into a line of people waiting for food. It's, and I feel like I've said this before, negligent.

Also:
Quote:
California is not a stand your ground state, but does recognize the "castle doctrine," which applies to one's home, place of business, or other real property. Similarly, an individual using deadly force to protect his or her property has no duty to retreat.
Was this man, a police officer, doing any of the above? Was he ever in any actual danger? Were his children? It doesn't matter if he believes he was or not, despite that being implied. That's why it isn't included in the law.

Bottom line, this guy belongs in prison and I have no doubts he'll end up there. I'll take a shot as a toast when I read about it.
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Old 24th June 2019, 12:19 PM   #72
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Perhaps the son knocked the cop down, the parents were giving him aid when he came to? So the paranoid cop opens fire? Cops are trained to be paranoid.

Do you think we will ever see the video? I suspect only of he is proven guilty, Costco does not want cops to think Costco is not supportive, or the cops won't show up for shoplifting complaints.
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Old 24th June 2019, 12:24 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It's hard to say what he may have been thinking. He was holding his child and was somehow knocked or pushed from behind. If he lost consciousness it was probably because his head hit the hard floor. Who knows what he saw when he came to. He may have thought that this is an organized child abduction by three pedophiles. Not an innocent but highly-odd son and his caretaker parents. Instead a violent child stealing crew.

Who knows what he thought? Do you think his thought was, "I'm going to shoot three innocent people right in front of my child because, well, because why the hell should I not do that?"?
I think he probably thought something to the effect of "ahh, what's happening, shoot first, ask questions later." Which is kind of a common problem with jumpy cops.

If this exact same situation had happened with a regular gun-toting American, they'd certainly have been arrested.

I mean, I think they would. The story is pretty bizarre. I'm not sure I understand what happened, but the main detail coming through is the situation was chaotic and confusing. I understand the overwhelming instinct to protect a child, but you can't just open fire inside a store because you're confused and startled.
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Old 24th June 2019, 12:28 PM   #74
Trebuchet
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
R
Bottom line, this guy belongs in prison and I have no doubts he'll end up there. I'll take a shot as a toast when I read about it.
I do. He's a cop, after all.
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Old 24th June 2019, 12:30 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
....
I mean, I think they would. The story is pretty bizarre. I'm not sure I understand what happened, but the main detail coming through is the situation was chaotic and confusing. I understand the overwhelming instinct to protect a child, but you can't just open fire inside a store because you're confused and startled.
Here's an idea: If an off-duty cop is permitted to carry his sidearm (and my understanding is that for legal reasons departments will permit but not require officers to do so) they should also be required to carry pepper spray and a baton, so in an off-duty confrontation they have the same use-of-force continuum as they would on-duty. Their choice wouldn't be do nothing or open fire. And a cop who shot somebody when he could have defended himself with pepper spray or a baton would be held liable.
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Old 24th June 2019, 12:32 PM   #76
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Did anyone report what happened to the kid the officer was holding during all this chaos? Did he drop him? Was the child injured?

The story is wildly confusing.
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Old 24th June 2019, 12:35 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Here's an idea: If an off-duty cop is permitted to carry his sidearm (and my understanding is that for legal reasons departments will permit but not require officers to do so) they should also be required to carry pepper spray and a baton, so in an off-duty confrontation they have the same use-of-force continuum as they would on-duty. Their choice wouldn't be do nothing or open fire. And a cop who shot somebody when he could have defended himself with pepper spray or a baton would be held liable.
Yes, that really would make sense. I agree.
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Old 24th June 2019, 12:49 PM   #78
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Do you think we will ever see the video?
Leaks are fairly common.

Originally Posted by isissxn
The story is wildly confusing.
A lot of information is completely missing. Some reported information conflicts with other reports.

It seems too early for any scenario to be much more likely than any other scenario.
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Old 24th June 2019, 12:50 PM   #79
plague311
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Did anyone report what happened to the kid the officer was holding during all this chaos? Did he drop him? Was the child injured?

The story is wildly confusing.
I've got a tracker on using google alerts but everything so far has kind of been a rehash. That's a good question though and might lend some credence to William's idea that they were after his kid. If he got up and didn't see him because he had dropped him, or the kid got scared and was crying.

It's still not a reason to cap 3 people at leisure, but it would at least mean something.
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Old 24th June 2019, 01:58 PM   #80
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It was reported that he announced himself as being police. This suggests to me that he was trying to change the behavior of someone, probably the dead guy. Why say that you are police if you are just going to spontaneously shoot. Why bother?

Maybe what he said was, "Police! Put the child down slowly! Put the child down now!"

We have almost no idea what happened or was said or what.
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