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Tags police misconduct charges , shooting incidents

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Old 24th June 2019, 02:14 PM   #81
Bob001
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
.....
Maybe what he said was, "Police! Put the child down slowly! Put the child down now!"

We have almost no idea what happened or was said or what.
What? Who? The cop was holding his own child. Who would he have ordered to "put the child down slowly?" Himself? Nobody's claiming anybody else grabbed his kid.
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Old 24th June 2019, 02:19 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Nobody's claiming anybody else grabbed his kid.
There is a hell of a lot missing from the reports about what happened. That includes what the dead guy did after knocking out the cop and what the cop then said and did.

We have next to no information at all.
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Old 24th June 2019, 02:28 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
There is a hell of a lot missing from the reports about what happened. That includes what the dead guy did after knocking out the cop and what the cop then said and did.

We have next to no information at all.
According to the LA times (I can't link because it's behind a paywall) the cop got pushed from behind. When he went down he said he woke up "and was fighting for his life", though no one was actually attacking him at that point. He identified himself as a police officer (after waking up, before shooting). The Frenches father put himself in between the cop and the son and got shot for it. There is absolutely no mention of the cop being afraid for his kid, his kid being approached, his kid being in harms way, or anything like that at all.
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Old 24th June 2019, 02:37 PM   #84
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...and the video is missing the few seconds when the cop was supposedly "unconscious".
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Old 24th June 2019, 02:43 PM   #85
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The shooting officer is Salvador Sanchez. The Daily Mail has his picture and various stories from lawyers and witnesses. The cop's lawyer says that Sanchez feared for his son's life.

Hopefully video will show details and he will be charged if that is appropriate.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...t-survive.html

Article also mentions why he wasn't arrested and that witnesses are still being interviewed and investigation ongoing.
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Old 24th June 2019, 02:45 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The shooting officer is Salvador Sanchez. The Daily Mail has his picture and various stories from lawyers and witnesses. The cop's lawyer says that Sanchez feared for his son's life.

Hopefully video will show details and he will be charged if that is appropriate.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...t-survive.html
I read that same thing just now, but it doesn't say why he feared for his son's life. Only that he feared for his son's life.

It also said the cop shot somewhere between 7 and 8 times. Seriously, what in the actual ****? If the dad was in between the two he couldn't possibly have been rushing the cop. That's extremely excessive and it's inside a ******* store. What was this cop thinking?
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Old 24th June 2019, 03:10 PM   #87
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Rage appears to be the most prudent explanation.
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Old 24th June 2019, 04:04 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Rage appears to be the most prudent explanation.
IMO this is the most likely the actual explanation but certainly it is not one to put forward as a legal and socially acceptable justification. After some time to consider the possibilities, the shooter chose the "my little kid was in danger" gambit. Frankly I doubt it will work, but who knows given the enormous freedom we have recently given cops to shoot people at will if they can argue that they were in some manner or other "frightened," however much a reach this might have been. I seem to remember a time when it was important that a cop not be easily frightened: that it was in fact a central part of their ability to do their job properly and protect the innocent, rather than blow their heads off. And I still believe that most cops are brave; perhaps I am naive.
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Old 24th June 2019, 04:21 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Even if we take into account your definition it still doesn't give him any reason to reach for a gun and shoot. I get that William keeps busting out this random ass "but they were after my kids!" style of argument, despite there being absolutely no evidence that he thought that at all. Either way, being pushed, stunned, dazed, etc. doesn't give you a right to shoot someone. Let alone fire your weapon dangerously into a line of people waiting for food. It's, and I feel like I've said this before, negligent.
It provides a credible reason for believing in imminent threat to one's person and family. Which is the clearest, most quintessential legal justification for shooting.
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Old 24th June 2019, 05:32 PM   #90
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I'm glad I dont live in America.
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Old 24th June 2019, 05:53 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The shooting officer is Salvador Sanchez...
Oh, that explains it!
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It also said the cop shot somewhere between 7 and 8 times.
They're trained to do that. Seriously, once they start firing they empty the mag.
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Old 24th June 2019, 06:36 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Rage appears to be the most prudent explanation.
A blow to the head can cause a psychosis: Inability to distinguish thoughts from reality. He THOUGHT he was being attacked by the people who were helping him up? And defending yourself, or ypur kid, even from unreasonable fear, is legal.
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Old 24th June 2019, 06:42 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
He was in a pubic grocery store...
Wait, what??
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Old 24th June 2019, 06:46 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
A blow to the head can cause a psychosis: Inability to distinguish thoughts from reality. He THOUGHT he was being attacked by the people who were helping him up? And defending yourself, or ypur kid, even from unreasonable fear, is legal.
Wouldn't that therefore imply that the schizophrenic dead guy, even if he actually attacked the cop, if it was through fear, would have been acting legally too?
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Old 24th June 2019, 06:58 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Wait, what??
Wherever you find junk, they are around it.
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Old 24th June 2019, 07:03 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Wouldn't that therefore imply that the schizophrenic dead guy, even if he actually attacked the cop, if it was through fear, would have been acting legally too?
No - he would still be acting illegally but he could be found not legally responsible for his actions due to mental illness.
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Old 24th June 2019, 07:29 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
No - he would still be acting illegally but he could be found not legally responsible for his actions due to mental illness.
I was replying to this..
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
A blow to the head can cause a psychosis: Inability to distinguish thoughts from reality. He THOUGHT he was being attacked by the people who were helping him up? And defending yourself, or ypur kid, even from unreasonable fear, is legal.
If what you are saying rockinkt is correct, then the cop would also be acting illegally but he could be found not legally responsible for his actions due to head trauma inducing temporary psychosis?

Not legal as casebro said?
I'm not from the US so forgive my daft questions.

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Old 24th June 2019, 07:36 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
A blow to the head can cause a psychosis: Inability to distinguish thoughts from reality.
Then I would not expect him to announce that he is police. Maybe also not remember that he has a gun or even a son.
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Old 24th June 2019, 08:07 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I was replying to this..

If what you are saying rockinkt is correct, then the cop would also be acting illegally but he could be found not legally responsible for his actions due to head trauma inducing temporary psychosis?

Not legal as casebro said?
I'm not from the US so forgive my daft questions.
Happy to answer to the best of my ability.
I am a former cop from Canada but our laws regarding mens rea are pretty well the same as the US.

The issue of "reasonable fear" in a criminal case is a very subjective situation but is usually dealt with by the court deciding if the actions were within what a "reasonable person would think given the same set of circumstances".

Therefore, it follows that "unreasonable fear" is not an excuse for criminal behaviour. However, if the "unreasonable fear" is brought about by temporary psychosis - in this case due to a blow to the head - then that may be used as a defense.

So yes, the cop could be found to have been acting without legal authority but not be responsible criminally for his actions due to a temporary condition brought on by a blow to the head.

edited to add: Unless his brains were pretty scrambled from the blow I cannot see any justification for the discharge of his firearm given the information we have at this time.
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Last edited by rockinkt; 24th June 2019 at 08:18 PM. Reason: edited for last paragraph
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Old 24th June 2019, 08:07 PM   #100
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There are reports saying that only parts of the encounter were recorded on the surveillance cameras.
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Old 25th June 2019, 02:21 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
A blow to the head can cause a psychosis: Inability to distinguish thoughts from reality. He THOUGHT he was being attacked by the people who were helping him up? And defending yourself, or ypur kid, even from unreasonable fear, is legal.
I'm not sure about that highlighted bit.

There's probably some kind of "reasonable person standard".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-d...(United_States)

Quote:
In the U.S., the general rule is that "[a] person is privileged to use such force as reasonably appears necessary to defend him or herself against an apparent threat of unlawful and immediate violence from another."[1] In cases involving non-deadly force, this means that the person must reasonably believe that their use of force was necessary to prevent imminent, unlawful physical harm.[2] When the use of deadly force is involved in a self-defense claim, the person must also reasonably believe that their use of deadly force is immediately necessary to prevent the other's infliction of great bodily harm or death.[3
(Emphasis in original)
Quote:
In some jurisdictions, there is an imperfect self-defense rule, where an individual who mistakenly believes that he was justified in using deadly force in self-defense, but is not legally justified, may have a murder conviction reduced to a manslaughter conviction instead.[10]
So not just any old belief, the general rule is that it must be a "reasonable" belief that the use of force was necessary to prevent imminent, unlawful physical harm. Perhaps the "imperfect self-defense rule" would possibly apply in this case. But that doesn't get you off the hook entirely, because he would still be guilty of manslaughter.

https://www.shouselaw.com/california...f-defense.html
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Old 25th June 2019, 09:10 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Wait, what??
You've never been to a pubic store? It's the coolest with 13 year old males.
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Old 25th June 2019, 02:11 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Oh, that explains it!

They're trained to do that. Seriously, once they start firing they empty the mag.
I don't think that's true. The traditional training is a "double tap," two shots at the threat, then stop and assess. Emptying the magazine is a pure panic reaction. It certainly happens, but it shouldn't.

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Old 25th June 2019, 03:35 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Maybe it wasn't a push knocking him down and instead was a fierce sucker punch causing unconsciousness before he hit the floor.
Maybe he thought he was in his apartment and that he was being home invaded.

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Old 25th June 2019, 04:57 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
They're trained to do that. Seriously, once they start firing they empty the mag.
And what do they do when the perp's buddy comes round the corner?

Sounds to me like a very good way to get yourself killed.
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Old 25th June 2019, 06:40 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by wollery View Post
And what do they do when the perp's buddy comes round the corner?

Sounds to me like a very good way to get yourself killed.
Police departments have been know to actively reject recruits with high IQ's.
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Old 25th June 2019, 07:59 PM   #107
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An argument over chicken teriyaki apparently.
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Old 26th June 2019, 01:04 AM   #108
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I would have thought a cop would be used to dealing with people with personality disorders. Arguing with someone like that is usually not going to work rationally and you better of just letting them be, even if they pushed in front of you in the teriaki tasting queue.
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Old 27th June 2019, 09:55 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
I would have thought a cop would be used to dealing with people with personality disorders.

In the US, police "dealing with people with personality disorders" typically means one of two things: 1) shooting them as quickly as possible and then claiming self-defense, or 2) giving them a badge and gun.
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Old 27th June 2019, 10:45 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Wouldn't that therefore imply that the schizophrenic dead guy, even if he actually attacked the cop, if it was through fear, would have been acting legally too?
Apparently. "I'm a coward" is only a justification for murder if you're a cop.
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Old 27th June 2019, 12:32 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
In the US, police "dealing with people with personality disorders" typically means one of two things: 1) shooting them as quickly as possible and then claiming self-defense, or 2) giving them a badge and gun.
Nommed.
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Old 30th June 2019, 07:19 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
I would have thought a cop would be used to dealing with people with personality disorders. Arguing with someone like that is usually not going to work rationally and you better of just letting them be, even if they pushed in front of you in the teriaki tasting queue.
It might be different in the US, but I know police here are generally not given specific training on how to treat people with mental illness.
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Old 30th June 2019, 11:30 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It might be different in the US, but I know police here are generally not given specific training on how to treat people with mental illness.
Just done a very quick search and you are wrong. At least one police force has specific training for operational officers, including how to work with patients in hospitals and clinics.
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Old 30th June 2019, 11:54 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Just done a very quick search and you are wrong. At least one police force has specific training for operational officers, including how to work with patients in hospitals and clinics.
Okay, fair enough. I have a good friend who is a volunteer educator in mental health, and she did a session for the federal police once, and I got the impression it wasn't a common thing.
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Old 30th July 2019, 05:50 PM   #115
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I have bounced this story because I am interested in what is happening. I have heard nothing more, is there any update? How are the parents doing? If they were discharged from hospital I thought there would be an update, if they are still in hospital it suggests they have problems.
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Old 31st July 2019, 02:07 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I have bounced this story because I am interested in what is happening. I have heard nothing more, is there any update? How are the parents doing? If they were discharged from hospital I thought there would be an update, if they are still in hospital it suggests they have problems.
There's not much new developments, but here is a more recent news story:

Family Of Man Fatally Shot In Corona Costco Still Looking For Answers (July 22, 2019, CBS 9, Los Angeles)

Quote:
A family member told CBSLA’s Nicole Comstock that employees of the Costco have seen the security footage of the incident, and have told the family the video shows almost everything that happened June 14. Employees initially talked with CBSLA the night of the shooting, but the family alleges the company has made those who were there sign non-disclosure agreements effectively silencing them.

French’s family said they have been instructed not to speak on camera about the case, but one family member agreed to talk on the phone. He told CBSLA that the family does not dispute that French started the physical encounter by pushing or slapping Salvador. But the family member said witnesses told him that French’s mother Paola was shot first, in the back while standing between her mentally ill son and the officer. The family member said French’s father Russel was shot next while screaming, “Don’t shoot. My son is sick.”

Both are still under treatment for severe injuries.
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Last edited by Puppycow; 31st July 2019 at 02:08 AM.
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Old 31st July 2019, 02:19 AM   #117
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But the family member said witnesses told him that French’s mother Paola was shot first, in the back while standing between her mentally ill son and the officer.
Extremely important if true. If the shopper with the gun opened fire while an innocent person was standing between his gun and the "threat", his decision seems a lot harder to justify.
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Old 31st July 2019, 04:22 AM   #118
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Still no explanation offered at all why the cop's shooting of the mother and father weren't criminal acts.
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Old 31st July 2019, 06:26 AM   #119
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What the hell? He slapped him? I'd like that defined. I'm not condoning what the cops actions were, but if that "slap" was more of a closed fist type of thing. That could be concerning, depending on how hard he was hit.
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Old 31st July 2019, 06:36 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
What the hell? He slapped him? I'd like that defined. I'm not condoning what the cops actions were, but if that "slap" was more of a closed fist type of thing. That could be concerning, depending on how hard he was hit.
It could be concerning, yes, but I'm struggling to see how it warrants Salvador shooting both parents then shooting the son dead, after the mother has got in between him and the son.

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