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Tags gun control issues , gun control laws , mass shootings , New Zealand incidents , New Zealand issues , shooting incidents

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Old 9th July 2019, 04:26 PM   #41
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
They'd be the equivalent of the "Black Disciples" in Chicago
Well, Black Disciples are murdering somebody(s) almost every single day. Your bikies and racists, and our bikers and racists are not doing that. So I think you mean that your guys are thuggish crime gangs but not so much stone cold killers.

Quote:
NZ gangs are not like US gangs. Armed Police could just walk right in to their gang headquarters and take their guns, and the gangs won't actively resist that.. at least, not if they know what's good for them.
What kind of gang keeps an arsenal in a known headquarters or clubhouse?

But really it might depend on what kind of American gang we are talking about. The ability for police to walk in and take guns might be different for a city street gang (Black Disciples) versus a biker gang (Hell's Angels).

It is even possible that some guns would be legally owned and could not be taken.
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Old 9th July 2019, 04:31 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post

Well, Black Disciples are murdering somebody(s) almost every single day. Your bikies and racists, and our bikers and racists are not doing that. So I think you mean that your guys are thuggish crime gangs but not so much stone cold killers.
Murder is bad for business. Their business is not that, it's mostly drug-running these days. They like to keep all that as quiet and off the radar as possible.


Quote:
What kind of gang keeps an arsenal in a known headquarters or clubhouse?
Most gangs.

Quote:
But really it might depend on what kind of American gang we are talking about. The ability for police to walk in and take guns might be different for a city street gang (Black Disciples) versus a biker gang (Hell's Angels).

It is even possible that some guns would be legally owned and could not be taken.
True.

"What's these AR-15's used for, tiger?"

"Just for hunting some possums for a hangi, officer!"

"Oh. Right then. You can have them back."
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Old 9th July 2019, 05:07 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post

"What's these AR-15's used for, tiger?"

"None of your damned business, officer."

"Oh. Right then. You can have them back."
Fixed to reflect the American response, not that I necessarily endorse it.
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Old 9th July 2019, 05:37 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
What kind of gang keeps an arsenal in a known headquarters or clubhouse?
They don't

Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It is even possible that some guns would be legally owned and could not be taken.
Nope.

Any guns found in a gang HQ are almost certainly going to be illegal. Why? Because no member of a gang will have a Firearms Licence (they would fail the "fit and proper person" test.) ergo, any firearms in their possession will be illegal
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Old 9th July 2019, 06:01 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Nope.

Any guns found in a gang HQ are almost certainly going to be illegal. Why? Because no member of a gang will have a Firearms Licence (they would fail the "fit and proper person" test.) ergo, any firearms in their possession will be illegal
I was talking about American gangs with guns in their clubhouse. If you look at my post you see near the end I begin talking in reference to American gangs. I don't know enough about NZ gun laws to talk about your gun ownership rights.
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Old 9th July 2019, 06:22 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I was talking about American gangs with guns in their clubhouse. If you look at my post you see near the end I begin talking in reference to American gangs. I don't know enough about NZ gun laws to talk about your gun ownership rights.
When you asked "What kind of gang keeps an arsenal in a known headquarters or clubhouse?" it was in reply to my post about NZ gangs. I reasonably assumed that you would have been on the same train of thought.

A discussion about NZ gangs is, at least tangentially on topic for this thread, but the subject of US gangs is entirely irrelevant.
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Old 9th July 2019, 06:30 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
When you asked "What kind of gang keeps an arsenal in a known headquarters or clubhouse?" it was in reply to my post about NZ gangs. I reasonably assumed that you would have been on the same train of thought.
When I asked the rhetorical question of clubhouse arsenals I was asking in reference to both American and NZ gangs. It's too risky for any of them to have much illegal stuff at a known location.

Quote:
A discussion about NZ gangs is, at least tangentially on topic for this thread, but the subject of US gangs is entirely irrelevant.
You mentioned Black Disciples in Chicago, Illinois and it went from there.

BTW, I forget to ask. Do your police need a search warrant with probable cause to enter a gang clubhouse, or can they just go in at any time for simple suspicion, or what?
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Old 9th July 2019, 10:42 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I'm not familiar with NZ gangs and organized crime. Would those guys be classified as anti-white racists or something like "native supremacists"? Anyway, they probably wouldn't give up their guns either.
NZ gangs are an odd one, because the chances of having trouble with a gang member is extremely small, unless you're in a different gang.

They keep to the criminal path and ignore average people most of the time.

NZ race-based gangs are more akin to a warrior tribe than many gangs around the world. Meth sales are what drives most of them, and keeping your head down is the best way to get ignored by the cops, so that's what they largely do.

Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
BTW, I forget to ask. Do your police need a search warrant with probable cause to enter a gang clubhouse, or can they just go in at any time for simple suspicion, or what?
They can claim suspicion of drugs to search without a warrant, which is allowed, but they'd normally get a warrant, which is based on their suspicion anyway.
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Old 10th July 2019, 12:56 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
BTW, I forget to ask. Do your police need a search warrant with probable cause to enter a gang clubhouse, or can they just go in at any time for simple suspicion, or what?
Search and Surveillance Act 2012, ss 7, 8, 14, 15

The police can enter your place without a warrant in the following situations:
  • Making an arrest – The police can come into your place to search for you and arrest you if they’ve got reasonable grounds to suspect you’ve committed an offence that’s punishable by a prison term. To be able to use this power the police have to have reasonable grounds to believe you’re at the place at that time and that if they don’t enter straightaway either you’ll leave or you’ll interfere with evidence. They can also enter to arrest you if there’s an arrest warrant out for you or if you’ve escaped from prison.

  • Preventing crimes – The police can enter to stop a criminal offence being committed that’s likely to cause someone to be injured, or serious damage to or serious loss of any property.

  • Seizing evidence – The police can enter your place if they’ve arrested you (whether at your place or somewhere else) and they’ve got reasonable grounds to believe there’s evidence at your place that will be destroyed or interfered with if they wait to get a warrant from a court. Also, if they think there’s evidence of a serious crime (one punishable by a jail term of 14 years or more, like rape or aggravated robbery), they can enter to seize it whether they’ve arrested you or not.

  • Emergencies – The police can enter when there’s an emergency threatening somebody’s life or safety.

  • Enforcing specific laws – A number of Acts allow the police or other officials to enter property without a warrant in order to enforce that particular Act, including the Land Transport Act 1998 (see the chapter “Driving and traffic law”), the Immigration Act 2009, and the Animal Welfare Act 1999.

I am pretty sure they would need a warrant (and would have zero trouble getting it) if they were going to raid a Gang HQ looking for illegal guns.
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Old 10th July 2019, 02:05 AM   #50
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Their bikes are rolling traffic violations for a start.
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Old 10th July 2019, 02:18 AM   #51
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All good. Australia will just send over their massive army of disgruntled militia who have been hiding their semi autos for years to support their Kiwi brothers in the forthcoming war against the gun thieving NZ government.........
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Old 10th July 2019, 02:23 AM   #52
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Also for reference, they are not banned in Australia. Just reclassified and you can get the classification if you can show the need.
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Old 10th July 2019, 03:20 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by deverett View Post
Also for reference, they are not banned in Australia. Just reclassified and you can get the classification if you can show the need.
Correct. You no doubt know this. Showing the "need" for a semi automatic is an extremely high barrier to reach and they are out of reach for all but the military, police, security services and perhaps some professional feral animal hunters (and I'm not even certain of this last category).
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Old 10th July 2019, 05:23 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Correct. You no doubt know this. Showing the "need" for a semi automatic is an extremely high barrier to reach and they are out of reach for all but the military, police, security services and perhaps some professional feral animal hunters (and I'm not even certain of this last category).
And as I understand it, even then, the authorities know who you are if you have one, and you can't sell it or trade it to someone who does not meet the criteria to own one.
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Old 10th July 2019, 05:31 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
And as I understand it, even then, the authorities know who you are if you have one, and you can't sell it or trade it to someone who does not meet the criteria to own one.
Correct as well.

I do remember the days after Port Arthur quite well. I had a couple of neighbours who vowed to bury their semi automatics rather than surrender them. My only thought was “good”.
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Old 10th July 2019, 07:52 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
The "DON'T TREAD ON ME!!!!" loons took on the Brits and won our independence. They created this country.
They were French? Well, you learn something every day. I thought they were mainly British.
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Old 10th July 2019, 07:57 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
They were French? Well, you learn something every day. I thought they were mainly British.
Well maybe but they needed a Frenchman to actually get them into any kind of fighting force instead of a worthless rabble they started as.
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Old 10th July 2019, 08:29 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
They were French? Well, you learn something every day. I thought they were mainly British.
I don't know what you're talking about. Come to think of it, I don't really care.
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Old 10th July 2019, 08:32 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
I don't know what you're talking about. Come to think of it, I don't really care.
One of us doesn't.

And yeah you do.
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Old 10th July 2019, 05:14 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
The "DON'T TREAD ON ME!!!!" loons took on the Brits and won our independence. They created this country.
How many airports did they capture in doing so?
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Old 10th July 2019, 05:30 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
I don't know what you're talking about. Come to think of it, I don't really care.
Seriously?

You claim to be knowledgable about America's history and yet you don't know about the French involvement in the Revolutionary War?

You don't know that the French secretly shipped supplies, materiel, arms and ammunition to the Continental Army?

You've never heard of the 1778 Treaty of Alliance?

The assistance of France is openly acknowledged by historians as a major, vital, and decisive contribution to the US victory against the British. Without the French, Howe, Gage, Cornwallis et al would very likely have handed your forebears their collective arses on a silver platter, and the 56 delegates to the Second Continental Congress (FYI, that the guys who signed your Declaration of Independence), they would in all likelihood have been executed for Treason!
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Last edited by smartcooky; 10th July 2019 at 05:32 PM.
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Old 10th July 2019, 05:46 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.


I wasn't claiming we had no peckerwoods - we do. I was claiming we have no citizen militias, crazy loons playing soldiers in the backwoods.

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

Oh, and have a read of post #22
I know nothing about white supremacists, have never even seen one, and had no idea "peckerwoods" had anything to do with them. Where I come from "peckerwood" was synonymous with "doofus".
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Old 10th July 2019, 06:56 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Correct. You no doubt know this. Showing the "need" for a semi automatic is an extremely high barrier to reach and they are out of reach for all but the military, police, security services and perhaps some professional feral animal hunters (and I'm not even certain of this last category).
As far as I know, even professional hunters don't get access to semiautomatic rifles. But I could be wrong about that.
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Old 10th July 2019, 07:03 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
The "DON'T TREAD ON ME!!!!" loons took on the Brits and won our independence. They created this country. Their descendents today have a fine pedigree and will keep this country free. Orwell knew this and left us out of Big Brother controlled Oceania in "1984", knowing we were fiercely independent, but the Brits were ripe for the plucking by future leftists. Pretty smart guy, that Orwell.
Have you read 1984? The USA is specifically named as part of Oceania in the novel.
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Old 10th July 2019, 11:26 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Seriously?

You claim to be knowledgable about America's history and yet you don't know about the French involvement in the Revolutionary War?

You don't know that the French secretly shipped supplies, materiel, arms and ammunition to the Continental Army?

You've never heard of the 1778 Treaty of Alliance?

The assistance of France is openly acknowledged by historians as a major, vital, and decisive contribution to the US victory against the British. Without the French, Howe, Gage, Cornwallis et al would very likely have handed your forebears their collective arses on a silver platter, and the 56 delegates to the Second Continental Congress (FYI, that the guys who signed your Declaration of Independence), they would in all likelihood have been executed for Treason!
Nonsense! It was all about protecting the airports. And the Mirage was never a match for the F-16!
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Old 11th July 2019, 02:59 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Seriously?

You claim to be knowledgable about America's history and yet you don't know about the French involvement in the Revolutionary War?

You don't know that the French secretly shipped supplies, materiel, arms and ammunition to the Continental Army?

You've never heard of the 1778 Treaty of Alliance?

The assistance of France is openly acknowledged by historians as a major, vital, and decisive contribution to the US victory against the British. Without the French, Howe, Gage, Cornwallis et al would very likely have handed your forebears their collective arses on a silver platter, and the 56 delegates to the Second Continental Congress (FYI, that the guys who signed your Declaration of Independence), they would in all likelihood have been executed for Treason!
And of course training to turn the militia rabble into a popper army from comte de Rochambeau.

And the vital french blockade that lead to the surrender at Yorktown.
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Old 11th July 2019, 03:04 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
The leftists are probably going to have to go to war to get their guns in Australia and New Zealand. (Which they will regret almost immediately.) They will definitely have to go to war to get our guns in the U.S., just like the Brits tried to do and failed miserably. Although, with the Brits if it hadn't been that it would have been something else.
I think you'll find it was a bit more complicated than that.
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Old 11th July 2019, 03:07 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
The "DON'T TREAD ON ME!!!!" loons took on the Brits and won our independence. They created this country. Their descendents today have a fine pedigree and will keep this country free. Orwell knew this and left us out of Big Brother controlled Oceania in "1984",knowing we were fiercely independent,
No he didn't. The former United States is a component part of Oceania in the book.

Quote:
but the Brits were ripe for the plucking by future leftists. Pretty smart guy, that Orwell.
Orwell the die-hard socialist, you mean?
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Old 11th July 2019, 03:23 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Orwell the die-hard socialist, you mean?
And who nearly died from a bullet in the throat obtained fighting fascists, then being infected with the TB that ultimately killed him in the same war?

Yeah, that Orwell.
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Old 11th July 2019, 03:44 AM   #70
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Funny the kind of things some wankers will glioat about.
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Old 11th July 2019, 04:17 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Have you read 1984? The USA is specifically named as part of Oceania in the novel.
Nineteen Eighty-Four is often referenced incorrectly by those who have never read it.
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Old 11th July 2019, 04:22 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Nineteen Eighty-Four is often referenced incorrectly by those who have never read it.
I own a copy. I could definitely tell you the plot and how it ends. I haven't read it.

It seems I still know more about the novel that BB does about the American war of independence / Colonial war of rebellion / Proxy war between Great Britain and France (take your pick) than he does.
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Old 11th July 2019, 04:50 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
The leftists are probably going to have to go to war to get their guns in Australia and New Zealand. (Which they will regret almost immediately.) They will definitely have to go to war to get our guns in the U.S., just like the Brits tried to do and failed miserably. Although, with the Brits if it hadn't been that it would have been something else.
Utter rubbish. Try visiting the Real World sometime.
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Old 11th July 2019, 09:13 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Utter rubbish. Try visiting the Real World sometime.

Yes! The "Leftists" have already won in Australia!
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Old 11th July 2019, 06:36 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Nonsense! It was all about protecting the airports. And the Mirage was never a match for the F-16!
Agree... not even back in 1776!
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Old 11th July 2019, 06:52 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Utter rubbish. Try visiting the Real World sometime.
I live in the real world. How is the government going to get their guns when they don't give them up voluntarily? Say pretty please?
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Old 11th July 2019, 07:15 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Yes! The "Leftists" have already won in Australia!
Correct. So now we don't have a major gun problem like the USA as a result. And yes, BB, you DO have a gun problem. A BIG one.
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Old 11th July 2019, 07:17 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
I live in the real world. How is the government going to get their guns when they don't give them up voluntarily? Say pretty please?
Offer them money. Worked pretty well in Australia.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-...cheme/11227474
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Old 11th July 2019, 07:54 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
I live in the real world. How is the government going to get their guns when they don't give them up voluntarily? Say pretty please?
Offer them money. If that fails, there are a number of other ways

1. Revoke their firearms licences
2. Prosecute them for possession of illegal weapons
3. Have a judge issue a warrant for seizure.

I can understand why you, being American, simply cannot conceive of the idea of a country that has no legally enshrined gun rights, no gun rights lobbyists bribing politicians for favourable laws, no gun-totin' wannabes running around in the backwoods playing pretend soldiers, no whinging red-necks crying "bbbbut muh guns"
  • Our Constitution contains nothing like your 2nd amendment.
  • Our Bill of Rights does not include the right to own guns.
  • Ownership of guns in this country is a privilege, one that can be revoked at any time
  • The use of firearms for self-defence is expressly forbidden
  • There is no such thing as a "carry permit" for regular citizens

In all three cases I have listed above, those illegally held weapons will be seized without a shot being fired. I seriously doubt anyone will get themselves into an armed stand-off with Police.

In this country, once the illegal guns are all seized, every New Zealander knows the sun will still come up in the morning, the sky will not fall, and that life will go on. The issue of gun ownership is not considered to be one worth dying for.
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Old 11th July 2019, 08:20 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
I live in the real world. How is the government going to get their guns when they don't give them up voluntarily? Say pretty please?
Then the government won't get their guns. But their guns won't likely see the light of day ever again either, for fear of prosecution.

Seems the government wins either way, doesn't it.
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