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Tags gun control issues , gun control laws , mass shootings , New Zealand incidents , New Zealand issues , shooting incidents

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Old 17th July 2019, 08:56 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I see that number's been upgraded to 543 over two days, so a pretty solid start.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/114...ed-gun-buyback
Which would put it on track towards 100,000 assuming the numbers continue, and as I noted, I would be incredibly surprised if there were over 100,000, or even near that, of these weapons in the entire country. I suspect that about 1/3 to 1/2 way through there will be a major drop in weapons being handed in just because there won't be that many left outstanding by then.
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Old 17th July 2019, 09:10 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Which would put it on track towards 100,000 assuming the numbers continue, and as I noted, I would be incredibly surprised if there were over 100,000, or even near that, of these weapons in the entire country. I suspect that about 1/3 to 1/2 way through there will be a major drop in weapons being handed in just because there won't be that many left outstanding by then.
They also started in what I would expect to be the highest idiot gun/owner ratio in the country. Auckland will have nowhere near the ratio of guns as other places, but it looks like it's going to be pretty successful.

I know quite a few people who had a big cry about the law, but will hand their guns over. I gather the prices are fairly acceptable.
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Old 18th July 2019, 01:27 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You realise that it is very clear from the context of the entire post, that Smartcocky was talking about New Zealand Gunholders, not USA ones? Right? Cause I am sure you read the entire post, right?
Indeed I was, because BrooklynBaby specifically asked how the government would take banned guns from New Zealanders who would refuse to hand them in.

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
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Old 18th July 2019, 01:41 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
What complete and utter bollocks. No sane history book in any country would say such nonsense. And if yours does I would seriously question anything else that is included in it..
Here, do yourself a favour and spend a bit of time learning about your own history, from your own leading authorities.

https://www.battlefields.org/learn/a...can-revolution

http://www.americaslibrary.gov/jb/re...rancoam_1.html

https://history.state.gov/milestones...rench-alliance

You're going to have to work very hard to convince me that leading historians such as Bob Zeller, Daniel Boorstin, Robert R. Palmer and Bernard Bailyn as well as your own national historical archives are wrong about this.
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Old 18th July 2019, 02:06 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Which would put it on track towards 100,000 assuming the numbers continue, and as I noted, I would be incredibly surprised if there were over 100,000, or even near that, of these weapons in the entire country. I suspect that about 1/3 to 1/2 way through there will be a major drop in weapons being handed in just because there won't be that many left outstanding by then.
As I explained, the original figure of 300,000 was being bandied about because many thought the Ruger 10/22 varmint rifle (being a semi-automatic) was going be included in the ban. There are about 250,000 of those in the country because it is the weapon of choice for farmers, local authorities and DOC to use for small pest control (rabbits, possums etc). its .22 cal so the ammunition is cheap. Its also reliable, lightweight (2.3kb - 5lb) and rugged.

Just for clarity, this is from the Police website
https://www.police.govt.nz/advice/fi...bited-firearms

Prohibited firearms are:

All semi-automatic firearms (including semi-automatic shotguns), but:
  • excluding rimfire rifles .22 calibre or less as long as they have a magazine (whether detachable or not) that holds 10 rounds or less; and
  • excluding semi-automatic shotguns that have a non-detachable, tubular magazine that holds 5 rounds or less.


The Ruger 10/22 is .22 cal and is chambered for Long Rifle rimfire cartridges, its not banned, so that knocks the 300,000 figure down to 50,000, but people are still Googling and coming up with the incorrect 300,000 figure.
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Old 18th July 2019, 03:06 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
What complete and utter bollocks. No sane history book in any country would say such nonsense. And if yours does I would seriously question anything else that is included in it.

That would be like saying the assistance of Mexico is openly acknowledged by historians as a major, vital, and decisive contribution to the Allies victory against the Axis in WW2.

In fact, Mexico likely contributed more men and supplies to the Allies in WW2 than the French did to the colonies in the RW.

Your supposed "knowledge" about American history is clearly built on jingoistic lies and jealousy.
No sane person who knows anything about history would compare France at the time of the American Colonial Insurrection to Mexico during the Second World War.
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Old 18th July 2019, 03:10 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Why is it in the USA that civil order collapses under such small strains so easily? Other countries have natural disasters, often much worse. And they don't suddenly arm themselves to cope. You can't eat guns or sleep under them out of the rain.
It's a vicious circle. The aftermath of disasters/civil unrest is worse in the US because lots of people have guns, therefore others need guns to defend themselves.
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Old 18th July 2019, 03:16 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
What complete and utter bollocks. No sane history book in any country would say such nonsense. And if yours does I would seriously question anything else that is included in it.

That would be like saying the assistance of Mexico is openly acknowledged by historians as a major, vital, and decisive contribution to the Allies victory against the Axis in WW2.
Because the French played no part in the final victory. Oh, no, hang on...they were pivotal in defeating the Royal navy at Chesapeake, landing the siege equipment (all French), thus allowing the American/French army to force Cornwallis to surrender.

Without the French navy and the siege train that would not have happened.

And that's just the events near the end of the war.
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Old 18th July 2019, 05:03 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
No sane person who knows anything about history would compare France at the time of the American Colonial Insurrection to Mexico during the Second World War.
Considering that France was one of the three dominant super powers at the time... I don't recall Mexico ever being a super power.
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Old 18th July 2019, 05:13 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Considering that France was one of the three dominant super powers at the time... I don't recall Mexico ever being a super power.
But it throws off the myths they need to believe about the american revolution.

Of course if they really wanted an example of the kind of revolution they love to envision the choice would be Haiti.
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Old 18th July 2019, 11:38 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Why is it in the USA that civil order collapses under such small strains so easily? Other countries have natural disasters, often much worse. And they don't suddenly arm themselves to cope. You can't eat guns or sleep under them out of the rain.
So how do you think the residents of Koreatown should have coped during the riot when people were looting and shooting at them?
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Old 18th July 2019, 05:09 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
So how do you think the residents of Koreatown should have coped during the riot when people were looting and shooting at them?
return serve: Why on Earth were people shooting at them? What degenerated so far that there were shooting riots? Which brings me back to the same question: Why is it in the USA that civil order collapses under such small strains so easily? Why the reversion to guns as a solution?
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Old 18th July 2019, 08:14 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
return serve: Why on Earth were people shooting at them? What degenerated so far that there were shooting riots? Which brings me back to the same question: Why is it in the USA that civil order collapses under such small strains so easily? Why the reversion to guns as a solution?

Ever seen the animated cartoon "A Brief History of the United States of America" by Michael Moore (from his movie "Bowling for Columbine")

If you haven't, here's your chance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGYFRzf2Xww

OK its an exaggerated over-simplification, but essentially the point it makes is the correct one. A large part of the US population are driven by fear - fear of "The Other", fear of their own government, fear of things they don't understand (and don't want to understand). Its this fear that drives them to use guns as a solution to perceived threats.
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Old 19th July 2019, 03:48 AM   #134
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I wonder how they convinced all the criminals to hand in their guns also
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Old 19th July 2019, 04:38 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
I wonder how they convinced all the criminals to hand in their guns also
Considering that the most popular firearm for criminals are shotguns, which aren't going to be banned.

This is the thing that people seem to keep forgetting. The actual number of weapons being banned and that need handing in is extremely low. We're not banning all firearms.
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Old 19th July 2019, 05:20 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Considering that the most popular firearm for criminals are shotguns, which aren't going to be banned.

This is the thing that people seem to keep forgetting. The actual number of weapons being banned and that need handing in is extremely low. We're not banning all firearms.
Yeah, but ya see, you've forgotten the two key rules of US gun debate..

1. The "Bbbbbut Muh Guns Rule." .. taking any gun away from anyone is indistinguishable from taking all guns away from everyone, and

2. The "All or Nothing Rule" - If any proposed solution to the gun issue is not a 100% solution, then do nothing.
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Old 19th July 2019, 07:02 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
What complete and utter bollocks. No sane history book in any country would say such nonsense. And if yours does I would seriously question anything else that is included in it.
You might want to study some actual history...
Who supplied the gunpowder used by the colonists? Who supplied money, troops, weapons, military leadership, and naval support that tipped the balance in favor of the United States?
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Old 19th July 2019, 08:15 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
You might want to study some actual history...
Who supplied the gunpowder used by the colonists? Who supplied money, troops, weapons, military leadership, and naval support that tipped the balance in favor of the United States?
Bootstraps, duh?
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Old 19th July 2019, 08:25 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
2. The "All or Nothing Rule" - If any proposed solution to the gun issue is not a 100% solution, then do nothing.
The problem with most gun control proposals in the US is not that they are less than 100% solutions, but that they do not focus on the guns and gun owners that are responsible for the majority of gun-involved crimes and deaths.

I'm a big believer in the principle that the perfect is the enemy of the good. I wholeheartedly favor an 80% solution that's achievable, over a 100% solution that isn't. The problem in the US is 5% solutions that disproportionately affect law abiding citizens. This isn't starting small. This is looking for your keys under the streetlight, because that's where the light is.

Last edited by theprestige; 19th July 2019 at 09:14 AM.
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Old 19th July 2019, 09:08 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
I wonder how they convinced all the criminals to hand in their guns also
These restrictions aren't intended to address criminal use of firearms in general, and don't pretend to. Use of firearms in crime is rare in New Zealand.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 19th July 2019 at 09:09 AM.
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Old 19th July 2019, 11:33 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Because the French played no part in the final victory. Oh, no, hang on...they were pivotal in defeating the Royal navy at Chesapeake, landing the siege equipment (all French), thus allowing the American/French army to force Cornwallis to surrender.

Without the French navy and the siege train that would not have happened.

And that's just the events near the end of the war.

If it wasn't them that took the airports, it doesn't count.
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Old 19th July 2019, 11:48 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
These restrictions aren't intended to address criminal use of firearms in general, and don't pretend to. Use of firearms in crime is rare in New Zealand.
Then why did they wait until a mass shooting was committed and why restrict those guns at all?
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Old 19th July 2019, 11:53 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Then why did they wait until a mass shooting was committed and why restrict those guns at all?
"We must do something! This is something! We must do this!"
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Old 19th July 2019, 12:02 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
I wonder how they convinced all the criminals to hand in their guns also
I love this.

When your feeble attempts to project US gun attitudes have been so destructicated* you ask a really stupid question to keep trying.

Las Vegas - 58 dead. Shooter with no criminal record.
Christchurch - 51 dead. Shooter with no criminal record.
Port Arthur - 35 dead. Shooter with no criminal record.
Orlando - 49 dead. Shooter with no criminal record.

Please do keep going; I find it highly amusing.

*New word my 10-year-old son invented, to cover all of: destroyed, annihilated & vaporised, in one word.
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Old 19th July 2019, 12:03 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"We must do something! This is something! We must do this!"
Gosh, imagine that - places where **** happens and people decide we should try to prevent it in the future.

Really stupid, we should have sent thoughts & prayers; they're so much stronger than laws.
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Old 19th July 2019, 12:08 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Gosh, imagine that - places where **** happens and people decide we should try to prevent it in the future.



Really stupid, we should have sent thoughts & prayers; they're so much stronger than laws.
I imagine people determinimg root cause and taking informed action to address the root cause itself, not latching on to whatever retarded placebo that happens to penetrate their thick skulls.
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Old 19th July 2019, 12:08 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Then why did they wait until a mass shooting was committed and why restrict those guns at all?
Because there wasn't the political will beforehand.

Now the problem has been highlighted, and the solution is clear.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"We must do something! This is something! We must do this!"
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Gosh, imagine that - places where **** happens and people decide we should try to prevent it in the future.

Really stupid, we should have sent thoughts & prayers; they're so much stronger than laws.
"Something must be done, and this worked in Australia, and there's no reason for it not to work in NZ, and there's the political will, so this seems reasonable" doesn't quite have the same ring.
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Old 19th July 2019, 12:26 PM   #148
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Good, it's about time law-abiding citizens started standing up for their right to keep and bear a firearm.
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Old 19th July 2019, 12:33 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Good, it's about time law-abiding citizens started standing up for their right to keep and bear a firearm.
Have you read the thread?

The thread title would have been more accurate to read - "New Zealanders don't hand guns in before gun buyback starts"
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Old 19th July 2019, 12:34 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Have you read the thread?

The thread title would have been more accurate to read - "New Zealanders don't hand guns in before gun buyback starts"
Guilty as charged. I just assumed the NZ's refused to turn their weapons in.
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Old 19th July 2019, 12:36 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Guilty as charged. I just assumed the NZ's refused to turn their weapons in.
Nope, and there are still plenty of guns legally available in New Zealand, but now, most semiautomatic rifles are banned, and some will have magazine limitations.
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 19th July 2019, 01:00 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I imagine people determinimg root cause and taking informed action to address the root cause itself, not latching on to whatever retarded placebo that happens to penetrate their thick skulls.
What a load of utter nonsense.

The root cause is less relevant for immediate action than guns, which cause the deaths. Those, we can remove.

Waiting generations to educate kids and wait until they grow up might be an excellent long-term strategy, but taking action now is prudent.

Lowering the number of guns is unsurprisingly a good way of reducing gun murder rates. Maybe you could compare countries with strong gun law murder rates to USA one day when you're bored.

Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Guilty as charged. I just assumed the NZ's refused to turn their weapons in.
No, that was just a fantasy of an American gun enthusiast wanting to project something that doesn't exist. I'd say the number of [now] illegal guns in the country will be reduced by over 90%. Kiwis don't have the same quasi-religious attitude to guns that some nations have.
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Old 19th July 2019, 01:56 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I imagine people determinimg root cause and taking informed action to address the root cause itself, not latching on to whatever retarded placebo that happens to penetrate their thick skulls.
Is it time to roll back the clock to when that word wasn't offensive?

The problem is that we would then predate the Onion article that addresses your point. Them placebos seem to work pretty well everywhere they are implemented. At some point maybe we have to wonder if they are actually placebos.
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Old 19th July 2019, 01:56 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Good, it's about time law-abiding citizens started standing up for their right to keep and bear a firearm.
Yeah, NZ doesn’t abide by the American Constitution. There are no rights to keep and bear a firearm. Thanks for playing.
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Old 19th July 2019, 02:22 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Good, it's about time law-abiding citizens started standing up for their right to keep and bear a firearm.
Owning and using firearms in this country is a privilege, one that can be taken away from you at any time.

There is no "right to bear arms" in the country.

Please try to keep up
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Old 19th July 2019, 02:25 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Have you read the thread?

The thread title would have been more accurate to read - "New Zealanders don't hand guns in before gun buyback starts"

Except that would not be accurate either, because they did. 840 were taken to police stations before the first gun buyback event.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12246561
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Old 19th July 2019, 02:32 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Then why did they wait until a mass shooting was committed and why restrict those guns at all?
Because we thought our gun laws were sufficiently strict to prevent this kind of thing happening here. We were wrong, they weren't, so we are trying to address that.

Unlike the US, who operate by what I like to call the "All or Nothing Rule", we are prepared to put in place a partial solution to reduce the risk of it happening agian, rather than throwing our hands in the air and saying we cannot fix it 100% so do nothing.
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Old 19th July 2019, 02:43 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Yeah, NZ doesn’t abide by the American Constitution. There are no rights to keep and bear a firearm. Thanks for playing.
Does a right cease to exist because a particular government doesn't recognize it?

One of the major topics in international affairs seems to be how some countries don't recognize certain rights. The conversation never seems to be about how those rights just don't exist in those countries. Instead, the conversation always seems to be about how those rights totally exist, and the country in question is totally wrong for not recognizing them.
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Old 19th July 2019, 02:54 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Does a right cease to exist because a particular government doesn't recognize it?
The right never existed in the first place.

However, I can easily understand why you think gun ownership is a universal right. You were brought up in a country where the right to own a gun is a thing - you have been conditioned to think that way from the moment you could understand what it meant.

You were also brought up in a country that teaches you America is the greatest country on earth, and that your laws and rights and beliefs should apply everywhere else in the world, and that anyone who disagrees with America is automatically wrong by default.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
One of the major topics in international affairs seems to be how some countries don't recognize certain rights. The conversation never seems to be about how those rights just don't exist in those countries. Instead, the conversation always seems to be about how those rights totally exist, and the country in question is totally wrong for not recognizing them.
You're taking about internationally recognised "human rights". Guns are not included.
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Old 19th July 2019, 03:53 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Does a right cease to exist because a particular government doesn't recognize it?

One of the major topics in international affairs seems to be how some countries don't recognize certain rights. The conversation never seems to be about how those rights just don't exist in those countries. Instead, the conversation always seems to be about how those rights totally exist, and the country in question is totally wrong for not recognizing them.
Rights are not some inherent property of the universe, of being human, or of divine fiat. They are socially negotiated. To state the obvious.
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