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Tags gun control issues , gun control laws , mass shootings , New Zealand incidents , New Zealand issues , shooting incidents

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Old 19th July 2019, 03:58 PM   #161
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Rights are not some inherent property of the universe, of being human, or of divine fiat. They are socially negotiated. To state the obvious.
Who's negotiating human rights in North Korea?

Do you think the North Korean regime is oppressing its citizens?

Or do you think the North Korean regime is granting its citizens exactly the same rights its citizens have "socially negotiated"?
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Old 19th July 2019, 04:08 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Who's negotiating human rights in North Korea?

Do you think the North Korean regime is oppressing its citizens?

Or do you think the North Korean regime is granting its citizens exactly the same rights its citizens have "socially negotiated"?
Why would what I might think about this particular case make rights any less a social construct but instead some universal truth? If you keep this tangent on the nature of rights pointed at the actual thread topic it might be clearer to you.
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Old 19th July 2019, 04:11 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Why would what I might think about this particular case make rights any less a social construct but instead some universal truth? If you keep this tangent on the nature of rights pointed at the actual thread topic it might be clearer to you.
Either the citizens of North Korea have rights which their government does not recognize, or they do not.

Which one is your claim?

It's a simple question. Try not to complicate it.
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Old 19th July 2019, 04:22 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Either the citizens of North Korea have rights which their government does not recognize, or they do not.

Which one is your claim?

It's a simple question. Try not to complicate it.
Either the citizens of NZ have rights which their government does not recognise, or they do not?

Your claim is they have. Make the argument. Such rights are not preordained.
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Old 19th July 2019, 04:35 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Either the citizens of NZ have rights which their government does not recognise, or they do not?

Your claim is they have. Make the argument. Such rights are not preordained.
I hold these truths to be self-evident.
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Old 19th July 2019, 04:37 PM   #166
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America is no longer even a facade of being an exemplar of Enlightenment liberalism so there is no more an aura of authority to your NRA lobby inspired tripe. The people of NZ are socially negotiating the right of their citizens to own certain firearms against the costs of massacres of the likes they recently experienced but reject instead of counting as the price paid for a fetishised idea of freedom while offering up endless “hopes and prayers.”
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Old 19th July 2019, 04:40 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I hold these truths to be self-evident.
Mr King had an argument to go with that and I am going to be wanting yours too.
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Old 19th July 2019, 04:58 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
return serve: Why on Earth were people shooting at them? What degenerated so far that there were shooting riots? Which brings me back to the same question: Why is it in the USA that civil order collapses under such small strains so easily? Why the reversion to guns as a solution?
I'm not an expert, but I think plenty of countries have riots. Even first-world countries on occasion. Probably not as many guns though.
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Old 19th July 2019, 05:09 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I hold these truths to be self-evident.
Hard to argue with that logic.
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Old 19th July 2019, 05:44 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I hold these truths to be self-evident.
...and there's your problem!

You seem to be claiming that, even in the absence of 2A, US citizens have the right to own guns. OK, why have 2A at all then?

Would you allow US citizens the right to own nuclear weapons? If not, why not!

Would you allow US citizens the right to own vials of biological warfare agents.? If not, why not?

Would you allow US citizens the right to own vials of chemical agents.? If not, why not?

If your answer to the above questions is no, and if you think that citizens having guns is a self-evident human right, explain why citizens having nuclear weapons, biological warfare agents and chemical warfare agents is not also a self-evident human right?
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Old 19th July 2019, 06:04 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Good, it's about time law-abiding citizens started standing up for their right to keep and bear a firearm.
No one in New Zealand has a right to keep and bear a firearm.
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Old 19th July 2019, 06:11 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Then why did they wait until a mass shooting was committed and why restrict those guns at all?
Did you actually think about this question?

Because the murder rate and gun crimes are so low in New Zealand there was no need to consider restricting these weapons. Then we had a person that literally doubled the number of murders per year in one action. He did it with weapons that previously had been considered acceptable as unrestricted Class A, but could be simply modified to become a restricted Class E weapon.

As a result, there has been a clamp down on a handful of semi-automatic weapons that can be easily converted from Class A to Class E, as well as some accessories that could be used to do so.

What bit of this is problematic to you?
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Old 19th July 2019, 06:13 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Nope, and there are still plenty of guns legally available in New Zealand, but now, most semiautomatic rifles are banned, and some will have magazine limitations.
This is literally untrue. Certain Semi-Automatics that could be easily converted from Class A to Class E have been banned. The list was given above, it's about 6-7 rifles and 4-5 pistols. The most commonly use semi-automatic in the county is not on the banned list.
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Old 19th July 2019, 06:17 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Does a right cease to exist because a particular government doesn't recognize it?

One of the major topics in international affairs seems to be how some countries don't recognize certain rights. The conversation never seems to be about how those rights just don't exist in those countries. Instead, the conversation always seems to be about how those rights totally exist, and the country in question is totally wrong for not recognizing them.
Rights are created by the society that grants them, there is no such thing as a Universal Right. Conversations about rights that some countries don't have are based on the idea that they should have those rights, or that they are granting rights to some of their people, but not others based on an arbitrary reason.

Consider this, much of the world considers Universal Healthcare to be a Right, it is even given as such in the UN Human Rights Charter. How does the US feel about that?
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Old 19th July 2019, 06:26 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Who's negotiating human rights in North Korea?

Do you think the North Korean regime is oppressing its citizens?

Or do you think the North Korean regime is granting its citizens exactly the same rights its citizens have "socially negotiated"?

Here's your problem. Governments do not determine the Rights of the Society. Society itself determines which Rights they want to have, and then it is up to the Government to codify, protect, and make sure that those rights are granted equally to all of the population regardless of status.

Governments fail in their duties when they refuse to accept the Rights demanded by the people, refuse to protect the rights the people have demanded, or that they grant those Rights to some, but not all, of the population based on an arbitrary status.

The North Korean regime is oppressive because it does not up hold its responsibility to allow its society to determine the rights they wish to have. Nor does it protect those rights, and because it grants Rights to people based on an arbitrary status.
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Old 19th July 2019, 06:31 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I hold these truths to be self-evident.
If you want to go down that road, then all you have is that all men (and women) are created (debatable there depending on your theistic belief or lack there of) equal, with the Rights of Life, Liberty, and a Pursuit of Happiness.

These are arguable too, after all, try to tell a hungry lion that you have a right to life. Clearly we have determined that some people can lose their rights to Liberty, and while certainly people probably should be allowed to purse Happiness within certain boundaries, happiness itself is not a right.

And still it comes to this. Men determined those Rights, they weren't granted by some Universal Truth Giver.
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Old 19th July 2019, 06:35 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Here's your problem. Governments do not determine the Rights of the Society. Society itself determines which Rights they want to have, and then it is up to the Government to codify, protect, and make sure that those rights are granted equally to all of the population regardless of status.

Governments fail in their duties when they refuse to accept the Rights demanded by the people, refuse to protect the rights the people have demanded, or that they grant those Rights to some, but not all, of the population based on an arbitrary status.

The North Korean regime is oppressive because it does not up hold it's responsibility to allow it's society to determine the rights they wish to have. Nor does it protect those rights, and because it grants Rights to people based on an arbitrary status.
On point.
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Old 19th July 2019, 11:57 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Here's your problem. Governments do not determine the Rights of the Society. Society itself determines which Rights they want to have, and then it is up to the Government to codify, protect, and make sure that those rights are granted equally to all of the population regardless of status.

Absolutely.

In a Colmar-Brunton TVNZ Poll taken in April, the new gun laws got overwhelming public support - 80%.

61% favour the changes as advertised
19% thought the changes didn't go far enough
14% opposed
5% didn't know
2% refused to answer

The NZ Parliament passed the law 120-1

Its pretty emphatic that NZ Society as a whole wants this done.
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Old 20th July 2019, 12:20 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Unlike the US, who operate by what I like to call the "All or Nothing Rule", we are prepared to put in place a partial solution to reduce the risk of it happening agian, rather than throwing our hands in the air and saying we cannot fix it 100% so do nothing.
So, would you compliment Trump on the progress he made by going against public opinion when he ordered the confiscation of bump stocks without compensation?
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Old 20th July 2019, 12:29 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
....What bit of this is problematic to you?
Not a problem since I live in the USA and not NZ.

I was responding to this part;
Quote:
These restrictions aren't intended to address criminal use of firearms in general....
If the new law is not intended to address criminal use of guns in general, then why bother?

It might work, unless someone doesn't turn theirs in and uses it for another mass shooting. But I would certainly hope they don't. I would say that the likelihood of another mass shooting in NZ is nil.
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Old 20th July 2019, 01:49 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
This is literally untrue. Certain Semi-Automatics that could be easily converted from Class A to Class E have been banned. The list was given above, it's about 6-7 rifles and 4-5 pistols. The most commonly use semi-automatic in the county is not on the banned list.
OK, thanks for the correction. The most dangerous and least useful semiautomatic weapons have been banned. Even less to worry about.
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Old 20th July 2019, 01:55 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Guilty as charged. I just assumed the NZ's refused to turn their weapons in.
Then which right are you talking about?
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Old 20th July 2019, 02:00 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Either the citizens of North Korea have rights which their government does not recognize, or they do not.

Which one is your claim?

It's a simple question. Try not to complicate it.
The universal declaration of human rights which is what is usually referred to when one talks "internationally" about human right abuses is merely something lots of us agree with. It does not document anything beyond human beliefs in what would be nice.
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Old 20th July 2019, 02:40 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
So, would you compliment Trump on the progress he made by going against public opinion when he ordered the confiscation of bump stocks without compensation?
Yes.

Something, no matter how small, is better than nothing at all.

Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Not a problem since I live in the USA and not NZ.

I was responding to this part;

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
These restrictions aren't intended to address criminal use of firearms in general, and don't pretend to. Use of firearms in crime is rare in New Zealand.

If the new law is not intended to address criminal use of guns in general, then why bother?

1. Because the vast majority of spree shooters had no criminal record at the time they went on the shooting spree (as TheAtheist pointed out earlier)...

Las Vegas - 58 dead. Shooter with no criminal record.
Christchurch - 51 dead. Shooter with no criminal record.
Orlando - 49 dead. Shooter with no criminal record.
Port Arthur - 35 dead. Shooter with no criminal record.

And I would add

Virginia Tech - 32 dead. Shooter with no criminal record.
Sandy Hook Elementary School - 27 dead. Shooter with no criminal record.
Marjory Stoneman-Douglas High School - 17 dead - Shooter with no criminal record.

2. Because the laws just passed are just the first of a number of changes to the NZ Gun laws. The next stage will see three more steps being taken...
a. The registration of all firearms. The Police then will know who owns what type of firearms and where they are located. It is expected to operate like motor vehicle registration; every sale of a firearm will require both the seller and the new owner to carry out a formal change of ownership.

b. An increase the security and vetting around firearms licensing. It is going to become more difficult to pass vetting to obtain a firearms licence, and the licence card itself is expected to change from and ordinary driver's licence/ID card type to an RFID encoded card like a credit/debit card.

c. To purchase ammunition will require the buyer to present the RFID Card in combination with another form of Photo ID such as a driver's license, an 18+ card or a passport. The buyer will not be allowed to buy ammunition for types of firearms that they do not own...e.g. I own a shotgun, a .243 cal and a .270 cal rifle, so I would not be allowed to buy .22, .223, .303 or .308 ammunition. This reduces my chances of buying ammunition for an unregistered firearm, or a firearm that belongs to someone else.
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Old 20th July 2019, 02:40 AM   #185
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But there was white Jesus standing behind James Madison, guiding his hand as he wrote out the Second Amendment, enshrining lead spraying freedoms for the people of the world.
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Old 20th July 2019, 04:37 AM   #186
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You can now 3D-print a DIY pistol in New Zealand for just a few hundred dollars.

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-...uld-we-worried



When you're done though just make sure you hand in to the government
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Old 20th July 2019, 04:43 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
You can now 3D-print a DIY pistol in New Zealand for just a few hundred dollars.

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-...uld-we-worried



When you're done though just make sure you hand in to the government
Yes and STEN guns were easy to make too.

Luckily, the ammunition is a bit of a problem, as it's controlled.

Also, 3D printed plastic guns are not going to be very good at withstanding the pressures in firing.
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Old 20th July 2019, 05:48 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Then why did they wait until a mass shooting was committed and why restrict those guns at all?
Probably because, before it happened, nobody thought someone would use them to commit mass murder in New Zealand.
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Old 20th July 2019, 05:50 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I imagine people determinimg root cause and taking informed action to address the root cause itself, not latching on to whatever retarded placebo that happens to penetrate their thick skulls.
Translation: Mass shootings are complicated things, and you can address any element apart from the firearms.

Give us a break...
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Old 20th July 2019, 05:53 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Does a right cease to exist because a particular government doesn't recognize it?
Just because one country thinks it's a "right" doesn't make it true outside that country.
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Old 20th July 2019, 05:55 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
You can now 3D-print a DIY pistol in New Zealand for just a few hundred dollars.

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-...uld-we-worried



When you're done though just make sure you hand in to the government
And if caught with it without a pistol enforcement on your licence, you face up to 3 years in jail, and up to a $4,000 fine. And that is just for possessing it. You can add on up to another 5 years for making the pistol without a manufacturing licence. If you have fired it tack on up to 3 more months and up to $3,000 more on the fine.
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Old 20th July 2019, 06:01 AM   #192
Information Analyst
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I was responding to this part;

Quote:
These restrictions aren't intended to address criminal use of firearms in general....
If the new law is not intended to address criminal use of guns in general, then why bother?
I think you're being deliberately obtuse. The restrictions are to address the risk of a specific type of firearms crime, hence not the "criminal use of firearms in general..."

It's not rocket science.
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Old 20th July 2019, 06:02 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
And if caught with it without a pistol enforcement on your licence, you face up to 3 years in jail, and up to a $4,000 fine. And that is just for possessing it. You can add on up to another 5 years for making the pistol without a manufacturing licence. If you have fired it tack on up to 3 more months and up to $3,000 more on the fine.
And you need some way of getting hold of the ammunition. And they're quite dangerous to the shooter.

It's hardly an AR-15
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Old 20th July 2019, 06:05 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
And you need some way of getting hold of the ammunition. And they're quite dangerous to the shooter.

It's hardly an AR-15
I don't know what sort of ammo they have, or if it's prohibited, but if it is, then that's up to another 2 years, also if the gun was used in regards to another crime, then there are a whole raft of charges that can be added for that, and more if someone got hurt from the use of the gun.

The real answer to it is that it's not a good idea to print one because if you ever use it you'll be in jail for a long time.
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Old 20th July 2019, 06:29 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I don't know what sort of ammo they have, or if it's prohibited, but if it is, then that's up to another 2 years, also if the gun was used in regards to another crime, then there are a whole raft of charges that can be added for that, and more if someone got hurt from the use of the gun.

The real answer to it is that it's not a good idea to print one because if you ever use it you'll be in jail for a long time.
... and you're likely to be missing the hand you were holding it with when you fired it!
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Old 20th July 2019, 06:53 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I don't know what sort of ammo they have, or if it's prohibited, but if it is, then that's up to another 2 years, also if the gun was used in regards to another crime, then there are a whole raft of charges that can be added for that, and more if someone got hurt from the use of the gun.

The real answer to it is that it's not a good idea to print one because if you ever use it you'll be in jail for a long time.
It is restricted according to the link Applecord himself posted.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
... and you're likely to be missing the hand you were holding it with when you fired it!
And this, especially.

It's probably slightly more safe for the shooter than a firearm from the time of Crecy...
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Old 20th July 2019, 11:44 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
1. Because the vast majority of spree shooters had no criminal record at the time they went on the shooting spree (as TheAtheist pointed out earlier)...
Well, this would be general criminal use. I'm not actually disagreeing with the rest of your post.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I think you're being deliberately obtuse. The restrictions are to address the risk of a specific type of firearms crime, hence not the "criminal use of firearms in general..."
I was labeling that as "criminal use of firearms in general".

Last edited by Ranb; 20th July 2019 at 11:47 AM.
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Old 20th July 2019, 03:09 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
You can now 3D-print a DIY pistol in New Zealand for just a few hundred dollars.
Oh genius.

Yes, you can print the gun, but getting ammunition will prove impossible. There is no black market for ammunition, and gun shops won't sell it to you with the specific licence required.

Any other idiotic points you'd like to try?
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Old 20th July 2019, 04:46 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Oh genius.

Yes, you can print the gun, but getting ammunition will prove impossible. There is no black market for ammunition, and gun shops won't sell it to you with the specific licence required.

Any other idiotic points you'd like to try?
The OP was wrong but he will not give up. Some people have no sense of embarrassment.
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Old 20th July 2019, 08:47 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
The OP was wrong but he will not give up. Some people have no sense of embarrassment.
Time to bump the Elton John/Candle in the Wind thread?
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