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Tags gun control issues , gun control laws , mass shootings , New Zealand incidents , New Zealand issues , shooting incidents

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Old 20th July 2019, 08:53 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Time to bump the Elton John/Candle in the Wind thread?
Nah. He'll just continue being wrong in any thread you try to direct him to.
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Old 21st July 2019, 12:05 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Time to bump the Elton John/Candle in the Wind thread?

Hang on for a minute. The OP of that thread was an American and Americans are never wrong about anything. Elton John truly copied REO Speedwagon, because an American said so and nobody else should let facts get in the way.


And REO Speedwagon was American, and Elton John was only English, so there!!



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Old 21st July 2019, 12:00 PM   #203
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Will there be new restrictions on reloading components such as primers, brass, powder and bullets?

What if a person has something like a Thompson Center Encore or Contender/G2? Would the various barrels from .17 caliber to .73 caliber have to be registered as well?
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Old 21st July 2019, 12:19 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Will there be new restrictions on reloading components such as primers, brass, powder and bullets?

What if a person has something like a Thompson Center Encore or Contender/G2? Would the various barrels from .17 caliber to .73 caliber have to be registered as well?
The NZ government has made it quite clear what weapons and accessories are included. What is the purpose of all these “what abouts”?
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Old 21st July 2019, 12:35 PM   #205
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Is there something other than this link I should be reading? http://www.legislation.govt.nz/bill/...html#LMS181209

It is clear that the Governor is going to call the shots, but what is going to be restricted in the future other than certain firearms and magazine is not clear.

So what can NZ residents look forward to?
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Old 21st July 2019, 01:16 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
The NZ government has made it quite clear what weapons and accessories are included. What is the purpose of all these “what abouts”?
It’s this:
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yeah, but ya see, you've forgotten the two key rules of US gun debate..

1. The "Bbbbbut Muh Guns Rule." .. taking any gun away from anyone is indistinguishable from taking all guns away from everyone, and

2. The "All or Nothing Rule" - If any proposed solution to the gun issue is not a 100% solution, then do nothing.
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Old 21st July 2019, 01:24 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Will there be new restrictions on reloading components such as primers, brass, powder and bullets?
Yet to be determined. As I made clear when I replied to you in post #184, the banning of certain firearms is only the first step.

Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
What if a person has something like a Thompson Center Encore or Contender/G2? Would the various barrels from .17 caliber to .73 caliber have to be registered as well?
Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Is there something other than this link I should be reading? http://www.legislation.govt.nz/bill/...html#LMS181209
I linked this earlier, in post #99

https://www.dropbox.com/s/f06llxb72x...-list.pdf?dl=1

As far as I can see, those items are not on the list

I linked this earlier, in post #125

https://www.police.govt.nz/advice/fi...bited-firearms

On that webpage, expand the headings by clicking the "+" signs next to these headings

New firearms laws are now in effect +
Information on prohibited firearms+
Prohibited firearms parts and magazines+

Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
It is clear that the Governorment is going to call the shots
As they should. Our goverment is not corrupt and not subject to bribes from lobby groups.

Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
...but what is going to be restricted in the future other than certain firearms and magazine is not clear.

So what can NZ residents look forward to?
Yet to be determined. As I made clear, the banning of certain firearms is only the first step towards making the people safer


Originally Posted by Steve View Post
The NZ government has made it quite clear what weapons and accessories are included. What is the purpose of all these “what abouts”?
To sow discord?
To make people repeatedly post answers and links they already posted?
What Sideroxylon just said?
Who knows?

All the released information is easily available. Some things haven't been decided yet, and we'll just have to be patient.
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Old 21st July 2019, 01:25 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I'd be amazed if it were more than dozens, actually.







You may need to consult an atlas to see how big NZ actually is - it's not a small island and takes a couple of days to get from one end to the other.



I think the government thought it would be unfair to expect every gun owner to travel to one event, so they're holding a couple*, and the 224 guns was just at the first one.



* A "couple" in this instance being another 257.
Can I just say that, as an Australian, New Zealand is a small island. With a small population.
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Old 21st July 2019, 01:26 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Wiki says it's about 990 miles on its long axis. That's 16.5 hours of driving, at an average speed of 60 mph.



Definitely do-able in a single 24 hour stretch, but even with great roads (which I assume NZ has), I'd still want to take a couple days to do it.
New Zealand has lousy roads
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Old 21st July 2019, 01:29 PM   #210
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For the NRA and their true believers this gun control policy is like the SE Asian domino affect and must be stopped lest people at home get funny ideas. Other nations implementing sensible gun laws is just plain embarrassing.
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Old 21st July 2019, 02:02 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yet to be determined. As I made clear when I replied to you in post #184, the banning of certain firearms is only the first step.





I linked this earlier, in post #99

https://www.dropbox.com/s/f06llxb72x...-list.pdf?dl=1

As far as I can see, those items are not on the list

I linked this earlier, in post #125

https://www.police.govt.nz/advice/fi...bited-firearms

On that webpage, expand the headings by clicking the "+" signs next to these headings

New firearms laws are now in effect +
Information on prohibited firearms+
Prohibited firearms parts and magazines+



As they should. Our goverment is not corrupt and not subject to bribes from lobby groups.



Yet to be determined. As I made clear, the banning of certain firearms is only the first step towards making the people safer




To sow discord?
To make people repeatedly post answers and links they already posted?
What Sideroxylon just said?
Who knows?

All the released information is easily available. Some things haven't been decided yet, and we'll just have to be patient.
Thanks. You saved me the trouble of posting a response. And you have said all this better than I would have.

Maybe there is concern among certain Americans that future US governments might see how sensible the gun restrictions of other countries actually are
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Old 21st July 2019, 04:08 PM   #212
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I wasn't clear enough in post #203. It was stated in a previous post that a person would not be able to purchase ammo for a firearm they do not own. This would allegedly render an illegally possessed firearm like an AR-15 useless.

That is why I asked about reloading components and multi-caliber firearms.

Would the owner of a multi-caliber firearm capable of chambering anything from 17 HMR to 12 gauge be allowed to buy any ammo they want?
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Old 21st July 2019, 04:31 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I wasn't clear enough in post #203. It was stated in a previous post that a person would not be able to purchase ammo for a firearm they do not own. This would allegedly render an illegally possessed firearm like an AR-15 useless.

That is why I asked about reloading components and multi-caliber fireaWould the owner of a multi-caliber firearm capable of chambering anything from 17 HMR to 12 gauge be allowed to buy any ammo they want?
That does clarify. I cannot answer this. For the record, I retract my previous comments related to you
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Old 21st July 2019, 04:34 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
New Zealand has lousy roads

You've never been to North Queensland have you, or more specifically, north of the Daintree?
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Old 21st July 2019, 06:01 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I wasn't clear enough in post #203. It was stated in a previous post that a person would not be able to purchase ammo for a firearm they do not own. This would allegedly render an illegally possessed firearm like an AR-15 useless.

That is why I asked about reloading components and multi-caliber firearms.

Would the owner of a multi-caliber firearm capable of chambering anything from 17 HMR to 12 gauge be allowed to buy any ammo they want?
I have no direct answer to this, except to say that these changes to the laws are a process, and the lawmakers in this country are not unreasonable. To paraphrase Tom Hanks in the movie Apollo 13, there are a large number of things that need to be done in order. We are on thing one, and you're asking about thing seventy three. As I said earlier, they haven't yet got to the Firearms Register Laws. They are dealing with the buyback of the types of firearms that are designed for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers.

One of the proposals I have seen is something similar to car VIN numbers. A FIN (firearm identification number) would be "a unique to that firearm" serial number which would be etched somewhere near the muzzle end of the barrel. Each barrel would have its own unique FIN so it might be possible to register your interchange barrels that way.

Perhaps an owner may be able to make a special case, to have the same firearm capable of multiple calibres registered multiple times under the different calibres; perhaps that register will allow a "Barrel & Chamber only" entry. I'm sure that this sort of thing will come up when the Select Committee meets to determine what the remaining laws will look like, and there will be firearms experts and representatives who will have the chance to make submissions to that committee.

NOTE: I could fall into this category myself. I own a Savage M12 LRP 243 Win, which as you probably know means its chambered to take Winchester .243 cartridges. That barrel can be changed for other ammunition (.204 Ruger, 6.5 Creedmoor, .260 Remington etc)
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Old 21st July 2019, 07:04 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
It is clear that the Governor is going to call the shots
Just as a side note because I have seen you say this twice...

New Zealand is a Constitutional Monarchy, which is to say that the Monarch of New Zealand (currently Queen Elizabeth II because we are a Commonwealth country and as such bestow the Crown of New Zealand to the same head of the Commonwealth as all other Commonwealth countries) is a titular head of state, and that the NZ Government is the actual ruling body.

The Governor General is the Queen's Representative inside of New Zealand, and so this role is really a Ceremonial position representing for a Titular Head of State. They have very few powers, but one duty is to sign into law all bills that pass within Parliament. This duty, just as seating the new parliament, and approving a new Prime Minister, is a formality and the GG has no real say in what they get to do.

They can technically dissolve Parliament should there be a need to in a Constitutional crisis, however I believe that one and only time it was ever done in modern times was in Australia in 1975, which resulted in the removal of both the PM and the GG.

So in reality, the GG will not be calling any shots, the Government will (pretty much Cabinet really) and the GG will simply sign whatever they send him to sign to formally make it law.
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Old 21st July 2019, 07:10 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Will there be new restrictions on reloading components such as primers, brass, powder and bullets?

What if a person has something like a Thompson Center Encore or Contender/G2? Would the various barrels from .17 caliber to .73 caliber have to be registered as well?
Sadly I can't answer this question at the current point in time because due to the new law changes the Police have yet to update and republish their list of approved weapons which would have told you if such guns were in fact even available in NZ.
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Old 21st July 2019, 07:36 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Just as a side note because I have seen you say this twice....
Thanks for the clarification.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Sadly I can't answer this question at the current point in time because due to the new law changes the Police have yet to update and republish their list of approved weapons which would have told you if such guns were in fact even available in NZ.
It sounds like California, maybe. CA allegedly tests firearms on their list. I heard something as simple as changing the coating on a gun or changing the length of the barrel is grounds for re-testing.

Does NZ list approved firearms by action type or some other criteria? Do they test them like California does?

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Old 21st July 2019, 07:44 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
NOTE: I could fall into this category myself. I own a Savage M12 LRP 243 Win, which as you probably know means its chambered to take Winchester .243 cartridges. That barrel can be changed for other ammunition (.204 Ruger, 6.5 Creedmoor, .260 Remington etc)
Ever swap barrels? I have a few times. All it takes is a action wrench, barrel vise and head space gauges.

ETA; The reason I brought up TC Encores and Contenders is that it takes about 90 seconds to swap barrels. Here is a list from one seller; https://matchgrademachine.com/chambers-list/

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Old 22nd July 2019, 12:54 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Ever swap barrels? I have a few times. All it takes is a action wrench, barrel vise and head space gauges.

ETA; The reason I brought up TC Encores and Contenders is that it takes about 90 seconds to swap barrels. Here is a list from one seller; https://matchgrademachine.com/chambers-list/
I understand it ain't easy, but I have no desire to do so. 243 Win is perfect for what I use the Savage for - target shooting. It might be a varmint rifle, but I've never used it for that.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 05:35 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I was labeling that as "criminal use of firearms in general".
I think you seem to be finding ways not to understand plain English.

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Old 22nd July 2019, 07:19 AM   #222
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Apologies if this has been covered already, but do we know where the Christchurch shooter got his arms?
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Old 22nd July 2019, 08:13 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Apologies if this has been covered already, but do we know where the Christchurch shooter got his arms?
He was born with them.

His guns, on the other hand, ........
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Old 22nd July 2019, 08:15 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
He was born with them.



His guns, on the other hand, ........
The other hand? What's wrong with the hands he was born with?
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Old 22nd July 2019, 08:18 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The other hand? What's wrong with the hands he was born with?
The first thing that comes to mind is that he used them to operate guns and kill a lot of people. That is very wrong.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 11:29 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I understand it ain't easy, but I have no desire to do so. 243 Win is perfect for what I use the Savage for - target shooting. It might be a varmint rifle, but I've never used it for that.
It is easy. It is better if you are able to borrow the headspace gauges to avoid the expense of buying them. Or you could use a commercial round.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 12:00 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Does a right cease to exist because a particular government doesn't recognize it?
Well the Texas rebellion is a great example of this. See the right to own slaves was not recognized in mexico so when these american slave owners immigrated with their slaves they ran into certain friction with the government. But they fought and god showed they were right and the right of the white man to own the black man is universal even if a government doesn't recognize it.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 01:15 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Apologies if this has been covered already, but do we know where the Christchurch shooter got his arms?
He got some of his weapons and ammunition from Reloaders Supplies, a gun store in Onehunga, Auckland, and some from Gun City (not sure which branch), but not the ones he actually used in the shooting. The source of those is a mystery. They were probably a private sale, but no-one is owning up to selling them to him.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 01:25 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
He got some of his weapons and ammunition from Reloaders Supplies, a gun store in Onehunga, Auckland, and some from Gun City (not sure which branch), but not the ones he actually used in the shooting. The source of those is a mystery. They were probably a private sale, but no-one is owning up to selling them to him.
Thanks!
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Old 23rd July 2019, 01:17 PM   #230
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Does NZ have a registration scheme that would allow a trace to determine who he bought them from? Surely the manufacturer/dealers can provide info on who was the owner after it was sold?

How hard is it to simply mail the parts to yourself in NZ from another country?
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Old 23rd July 2019, 01:45 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Does NZ have a registration scheme that would allow a trace to determine who he bought them from? Surely the manufacturer/dealers can provide info on who was the owner after it was sold?
No, we don't, only for special weapons that require licence endorsement such as for pistols

Some politicians tried to have one introduced after the Aramoana spree shooting

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_la...nts_to_the_Act

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_la...rp_Report_1997

There was not the political will or public support. That has changed now with the events in Christchurch in March.

Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
How hard is it to simply mail the parts to yourself in NZ from another country?
You will need a permit for that, and NZ Customs will seize any firearms related goods. If you don't have a permit (and you can't apply for one retrospectively) your goods will be confiscated, and you are likely to be prosecuted.
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Old 23rd July 2019, 09:30 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You will need a permit for that, and NZ Customs will seize any firearms related goods. If you don't have a permit (and you can't apply for one retrospectively) your goods will be confiscated, and you are likely to be prosecuted.
I meant illegally. The person who will murder might also attempt to circumvent import restrictions on firearms.
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Old 23rd July 2019, 09:36 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yet to be determined. As I made clear when I replied to you in post #184, the banning of certain firearms is only the first step.

For clarity, they are not banned, just restricted to a prohibited classification, Like Australia.
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Old 23rd July 2019, 09:37 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I meant illegally. The person who will murder might also attempt to circumvent import restrictions on firearms.
being an Island nation very far from everywhere that becomes really hard. All mail goes through customs and is x-rayed and screened for illegal items. Passenger baggage is all x-rayed, and shipping containers are checked, especially personal goods ones not being moved by recognised companies. The more legit the transportation company, the less likely things are to be searched with a fine tooth comb, but the less likely they are to carry anything without the paperwork.
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Old 23rd July 2019, 09:39 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by deverett View Post
For clarity, they are not banned, just restricted to a prohibited classification, Like Australia.
True, but for the normal everyday person, any E-Category weapon might as well be considered as banned.
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Old 24th July 2019, 01:10 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I meant illegally. The person who will murder might also attempt to circumvent import restrictions on firearms.
X-Ray.
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Old 24th July 2019, 01:52 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
What if...
When my kids start a question with that, I always counter with "What if an asteroid crashes into earth right now?"

Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
So what can NZ residents look forward to?
Fewer gun deaths is my pick.

A lot of domestic violence is perpetrated at the bad end of a legal gun. It's one area where white blokes lead the field, and history shows that fewer guns = fewer murders.

How's that working out for USA?

Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Can I just say that, as an Australian, New Zealand is a small island. With a small population.
Bollocks. Even individually, both halves of NZ are in the top 14 islands, and together they'd rank 7th.

As islands go, lots of our couple of thousand are fairly big. Even Stewart Island ranks #220.
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Old 24th July 2019, 02:12 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I meant illegally. The person who will murder might also attempt to circumvent import restrictions on firearms.
And?
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Old 24th July 2019, 10:30 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And?
Laws are ineffective against criminals. That's why we don't have any in the US.
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Old 24th July 2019, 10:40 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
When my kids start a question with that, I always counter with "What if an asteroid crashes into earth right now?"
That must be really frustrating for your kids when they're asking about a legitimate contingency, as Ranb is here.
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