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Old 16th July 2019, 07:04 PM   #1
Skeptic Ginger
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Carrying an open carry gun into an IRS office while black and ...wait for it

Being a cop on a break but otherwise on duty in full uniform.

This is too much (spoiler: it has a happy ending).

Security guard pleads not guilty after pulling gun on Lucas County Sheriff's deputy
Quote:
That deputy is still trying to wrap his head around a potentially fatal situation that arose out of what should have been a simple encounter. The deputy came to 4 Seagate to ask a question at the IRS office. A step that nearly cost him his life.

As Lucas County Sheriff's deputy Alan Gaston enters the IRS office, he's in full uniform with his badge with his firearm visible.

He was on duty May 31st but says he stopped at the office for a phone number to ask about a letter he got from the IRS. Deputy Gaston says the guard told him he needed to put his gun in his car. Gaston said he couldn't do that. The conversation ends with a gun pointed at the deputy's back. Gaston vividly remembers "that" moment.

"Basically preparing myself to be shot at that moment. Bracing for a shot in my back," said Gaston.

The whole thing caught on security cameras, as the guard follows deputy Gaston to the elevator with the gun out and it appears his finger very close to the trigger. The guard then tries to take Gaston into custody, once again with the gun drawn....


Cop-wannabe security guy thinks the officer needs to be arrested? The officer left right away after saying he was not allowed to leave his gun in the car. Cop-wannbe even tries to stop the elevator the real cop was leaving on.

And someone called the cops without mentioning the 'guy with a gun' was a cop in uniform no less.
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Old 16th July 2019, 07:12 PM   #2
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If Gaston was white he would have immediately drawn his weapon and killed that guard. Kept shooting until out of bullets.
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Old 16th July 2019, 08:07 PM   #3
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This is supposed to be racist?

Everyone hates cops these days. Starbucks and McDonald's employees love to refuse to serve cops, one even spiked his drink and went to jail for it.

You're gonna have to do better than this.
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Old 16th July 2019, 09:37 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
If Gaston was white he would have immediately drawn his weapon and killed that guard. Kept shooting until out of bullets.
Uh, what?

Actually, the wannabe-cop-guard picked on the wrong target. The officer was an instructor teaching other cops how to deescalate.
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Old 16th July 2019, 09:38 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
This is supposed to be racist?

Everyone hates cops these days. Starbucks and McDonald's employees love to refuse to serve cops, one even spiked his drink and went to jail for it.

You're gonna have to do better than this.
Oh my word. You guys need to get out of your rut and maybe you should have also watched the cop's impeccable behavior on the video.
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Old 16th July 2019, 10:20 PM   #6
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Hopefully he learned his lesson and just call the number on the notice.
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Old 16th July 2019, 10:32 PM   #7
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Arrest the guard. He can't be trusted with a weapon.
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Old 16th July 2019, 11:19 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Arrest the guard. He can't be trusted with a weapon.
He has been charged.

Did no one watch the video or read the article?
Quote:
TOLEDO, Ohio (WTVG) - A security guard has pleaded Not Guilty to one charge of aggravated menacing Monday in his first court appearance since he pulled a gun on a Lucas County Sheriff's Deputy at a local IRS office.
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Old 16th July 2019, 11:23 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Oh my word. You guys need to get out of your rut and maybe you should have also watched the cop's impeccable behavior on the video.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Uh, what?

Actually, the wannabe-cop-guard picked on the wrong target. The officer was an instructor teaching other cops how to deescalate.
And let that be a lesson to you Ginger.

When you post a link to a story, don't expect every poster who comments to have actually followed the link and read the story. Some are just too plain goddam lazy to bother!
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Old 16th July 2019, 11:25 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
And let that be a lesson to you Ginger.

When you post a link to a story, don't expect every poster who comments to have actually followed the link and read the story. Some are just too plain goddam lazy to bother!
I'm wondering if these are Poes or there's really that many deep-seated false assumptions about me.
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Old 16th July 2019, 11:52 PM   #11
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That guard is lucky to be alive.
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Old 17th July 2019, 12:14 AM   #12
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Stupid situation

But why would anyone go to a branch to get a phone number?

I'm assuming the IRS has a website and an enquiry phone number
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Old 17th July 2019, 12:17 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Stupid situation

But why would anyone go to a branch to get a phone number?

I'm assuming the IRS has a website and an enquiry phone number
Ever try to call the IRS?
"Your wait time is one hour."
He could have easily been looking for some more direct number. And not everything is online. For example if you need to resolve an issue you may need to talk to a person

Those offices are typically crowded so some people need to go there.

But is why he was there relevant?
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Old 17th July 2019, 12:31 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Ever try to call the IRS?
"Your wait time is one hour."
He could have easily been looking for some more direct number. And not everything is online. For example if you need to resolve an issue you may need to talk to a person

Those offices are typically crowded so some people need to go there.

But is why he was there relevant?
No I haven't, but I have been on hold for companies for over an hour.

Just thought it was a weird reason to go to a place in 2019.

Ignore the question.
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Old 17th July 2019, 12:37 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Ever try to call the IRS?
No kidding.

That poor deputy was probably ready to shoot someone to begin with. Then wannabe shows up?

Remarkable restraint on Deputy Gaston's part.
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Old 17th July 2019, 12:48 AM   #16
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Can I defend the guard?

The deputy was off duty on private business. Whether he was in uniform or not is irrelevant, he was off duty and not on official business so was functioning as a private citizen. It sounds like he is in dispute with the IRS.

My understanding is that private citizens are not allowed to bring weapons into federal offices. The guard was enforcing the law.

Just suppose things had gone a little differently; 'deputy threatened with bankruptcy by IRS pulls his gun and shoots x people at IRS offices'.

My guess is the USDA will not want to escalate but potentially the deputy might be charged with a federal offence. Hopefully there will be legal de-escalation; the security guard did the correct thing.
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Old 17th July 2019, 12:49 AM   #17
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Tax seems to a stupidly complicated system in the US.

Could never work out why they can't make it more automated like most other places
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Old 17th July 2019, 12:53 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
My understanding is that private citizens are not allowed to bring weapons into federal offices. The guard was enforcing the law.
Links to those laws?

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Old 17th July 2019, 01:15 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Can I defend the guard?

The deputy was off duty on private business.
How does the guard know this?
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Old 17th July 2019, 01:22 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Can I defend the guard?

The deputy was off duty on private business. Whether he was in uniform or not is irrelevant, he was off duty and not on official business so was functioning as a private citizen. It sounds like he is in dispute with the IRS.

My understanding is that private citizens are not allowed to bring weapons into federal offices. The guard was enforcing the law.

Just suppose things had gone a little differently; 'deputy threatened with bankruptcy by IRS pulls his gun and shoots x people at IRS offices'.

My guess is the USDA will not want to escalate but potentially the deputy might be charged with a federal offence. Hopefully there will be legal de-escalation; the security guard did the correct thing.
Hilited: No. He was on duty on private business. I believe that since cops in uniform are considered to be on duty through their whole shift, they have to go to the bathroom, run errands, have lunch, etc... while "on duty". Further, he's not allowed to leave his gun in the car. They don't phone in a "time out, cap'n I'm taking a break".
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Old 17th July 2019, 01:23 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Links to those laws?

Ranb
18 USC  930

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/930

(a)Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

(d)Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
(1)the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
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Old 17th July 2019, 01:34 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
18 USC  930

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/930

(a)Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

(d)Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
(1)the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
Thank you!

I have taken the liberty of highlighting one bit. It seems clear that whether on duty or not since he was not carrying out an official duty the deputy was technically in breach of federal law, and the security guard was enforcing the law.

I have no strong view on this, but on a skeptics site we should go further than our immediate response as to who is right and examine the facts. I think this was an unfortunate conflict of federal law and presumably local laws about the deputy requiring to be armed on duty. The deputy should have decided to come back when off duty and not persisted when told he could not enter the federal offices armed.

(FWIW based on my expert knowledge of US law based on TV programs, it does appear on duty officers do surrender their personal weapons when entering areas such as prisons and courts? My guess is that if he decided to pop into the white house even in uniform the secret service may have been equally aggressive about whether he could keep his personal weapon on him!)
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Old 17th July 2019, 01:37 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Hilited: No. He was on duty on private business. I believe that since cops in uniform are considered to be on duty through their whole shift, they have to go to the bathroom, run errands, have lunch, etc... while "on duty". Further, he's not allowed to leave his gun in the car. They don't phone in a "time out, cap'n I'm taking a break".
I am happy to be corrected on this distinction.
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Old 17th July 2019, 01:41 AM   #24
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The cop is suffering emotional and psychological distress and has lost wages due to this episode. What a scammer! Result!

I would hope that your average cop in the US was prepared to have a gun pulled on them at some point. Let's face it, they are not shy about pulling their own weapons and emptying them into people.

[Baylor Mode] The US cops must be the biggest **** the beds in law enforcement anywhere on the planet [/Baylor Mode]
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Old 17th July 2019, 01:52 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
The cop is suffering emotional and psychological distress and has lost wages due to this episode. What a scammer! Result!

I would hope that your average cop in the US was prepared to have a gun pulled on them at some point. Let's face it, they are not shy about pulling their own weapons and emptying them into people.

[Baylor Mode] The US cops must be the biggest **** the beds in law enforcement anywhere on the planet [/Baylor Mode]

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...eapon-on-duty/
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Old 17th July 2019, 01:55 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Stupid situation

But why would anyone go to a branch to get a phone number?

I'm assuming the IRS has a website and an enquiry phone number
I found that strange as well. The notice he received would have had a phone number. There are IRS websites with phone numbers.

This particular IRS location does accept people to come in and meet with IRS employees. But that is by appointment only. To make an appointment, he would have had to call that facility. If he called he facility, I expect they would have just given him a phone number rather than schedule an appointment just for that purpose.

Maybe he thought they accepted people without an appointment. But that information is easily found on-line. And wouldn't it be easier to call that office instead of stop in?

I would think that a police officer would know that you can't take a gun into a Federal facility unless you are conducting official police business.

I'm not sure how that all fits into this whole scenario, but I do find it odd.
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Old 17th July 2019, 01:56 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I am happy to be corrected on this distinction.
I got that from cops (or purported cops, or cop-hugging wannabes) on these forums, I'm pretty sure. I can't recall a thread but we have some present/former LEOs on the forums who may chime in. I got no dog in this fight, just offering-in what I'd gleaned in previous threads.
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Old 17th July 2019, 02:04 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
I found that strange as well. The notice he received would have had a phone number. There are IRS websites with phone numbers.

This particular IRS location does accept people to come in and meet with IRS employees. But that is by appointment only. To make an appointment, he would have had to call that facility. If he called he facility, I expect they would have just given him a phone number rather than schedule an appointment just for that purpose.

Maybe he thought they accepted people without an appointment. But that information is easily found on-line. And wouldn't it be easier to call that office instead of stop in?

I would think that a police officer would know that you can't take a gun into a Federal facility unless you are conducting official police business.

I'm not sure how that all fits into this whole scenario, but I do find it odd.
Or maybe he drove past the IRS office and thought "Oh, I need some information, I'll just pop in". Maybe he could have thought it through a bit, but nothing defends the behaviour of the guard, who will lose every penny in the civil suits. To go with a prison sentence.

A just outcome for a poorly trained jerk.
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Old 17th July 2019, 02:55 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Or maybe he drove past the IRS office and thought "Oh, I need some information, I'll just pop in". Maybe he could have thought it through a bit, but nothing defends the behaviour of the guard, who will lose every penny in the civil suits. To go with a prison sentence.

A just outcome for a poorly trained jerk.
And yet of course nothing happens when a real cop does this. Got to love the double standards.
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Old 17th July 2019, 03:06 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And yet of course nothing happens when a real cop does this. Got to love the double standards.
Do you not want this guard charged and sued?

I do. Cop behaviour will change over time. Meanwhile, a jerk is getting what he deserves.
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Old 17th July 2019, 03:13 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Do you not want this guard charged and sued?

I do. Cop behaviour will change over time. Meanwhile, a jerk is getting what he deserves.
Yea right pull the other one it has bells on it. Police behavior will never change until they start facing consequences for pulling their weapon on innocent people for no reason. And that is simply never going to happen, the district attorneys and police unions will not allow it.
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Old 17th July 2019, 03:21 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And yet of course nothing happens when a real cop does this. Got to love the double standards.
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yea right pull the other one it has bells on it. Police behavior will never change until they start facing consequences for pulling their weapon on innocent people for no reason. And that is simply never going to happen, the district attorneys and police unions will not allow it.
Okay, your crystal ball must be better than mine. I see proper training of cops as the key, and I don’t see how this will not happen.
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Old 17th July 2019, 03:31 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yea right pull the other one it has bells on it. Police behavior will never change until they start facing consequences for pulling their weapon on innocent people for no reason. And that is simply never going to happen, the district attorneys and police unions will not allow it.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...eapon-on-duty/

Quote:
In fact, only about a quarter (27%) of all officers say they have ever fired their service weapon while on the job, according to a separate Pew Research Center survey conducted by the National Police Research Platform. The survey was conducted May 19-Aug. 14, 2016, among a nationally representative sample of 7,917 sworn officers working in 54 police and sheriff’s departments with 100 or more officers........
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Old 17th July 2019, 03:39 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Thank you!

I have taken the liberty of highlighting one bit. It seems clear that whether on duty or not since he was not carrying out an official duty the deputy was technically in breach of federal law, and the security guard was enforcing the law.

I have no strong view on this, but on a skeptics site we should go further than our immediate response as to who is right and examine the facts. I think this was an unfortunate conflict of federal law and presumably local laws about the deputy requiring to be armed on duty. The deputy should have decided to come back when off duty and not persisted when told he could not enter the federal offices armed.

(FWIW based on my expert knowledge of US law based on TV programs, it does appear on duty officers do surrender their personal weapons when entering areas such as prisons and courts? My guess is that if he decided to pop into the white house even in uniform the secret service may have been equally aggressive about whether he could keep his personal weapon on him!)
Rubbish!

A Policeman is on official duty ALL THE TIME while in his uniform and on his shift, even if he is doing something private at the time

Taking a leak - on official duty.
Breaking for lunch - on official duty.
Going to the donut shop to get a donut with sprinkles for his partner - on official duty.

LEOs on duty are required to be ready to respond immediately. If he leaves his gun in his patrol car, and while he's in the Federal building, the Drug Store across the road has an armed robbery, he's going to have a lot of explaining to do as to why he had to retrieve his gun from his car before attending the scene.

The Mall Cop was completely in the wrong, as evidenced by the fact that he has been arrested and charged.
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Old 17th July 2019, 03:39 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
If Gaston was white he would have immediately drawn his weapon and killed that guard. Kept shooting until out of bullets.
Only in your racist fevered dreams
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Old 17th July 2019, 03:41 AM   #36
cullennz
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Rubbish!

A Policeman is on official duty ALL THE TIME while in his uniform and on his shift, even if he is doing something private at the time

Taking a leak - on official duty.
Breaking for lunch - on official duty.
Going to the donut shop to get a donut with sprinkles for his partner - on official duty.

LEOs on duty are required to be ready to respond immediately. If he leaves his gun in his patrol car, and while he's in the Federal building, the Drug Store across the road has an armed robbery, he's going to have a lot of explaining to do as to why he had to retrieve his gun from his car before attending the scene.

The Mall Cop was completely in the wrong, as evidenced by the fact that he has been arrested and charged.
So I take it there is a law that says all LEO's can never drink off duty while wearing a uniform?

Or are cops allowed to work under the influence?
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 17th July 2019, 03:50 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
So I take it there is a law that says all LEO's can never drink off duty while wearing a uniform?

Or are cops allowed to work under the influence?
What on earth does this have to do with this thread? Was the cop here drunk?
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Old 17th July 2019, 04:22 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
What on earth does this have to do with this thread? Was the cop here drunk?
Not at all

I was just extrapolating from a post saying a cop in uniform is officially always on duty.

If a) is so, then b) must be so
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Old 17th July 2019, 04:24 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
This is supposed to be racist?
I can't say for sure but I struggle to understand why it happened in the first place. I mean, he's the police!
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Old 17th July 2019, 04:26 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
And let that be a lesson to you Ginger.

When you post a link to a story, don't expect every poster who comments to have actually followed the link and read the story. Some are just too plain goddam lazy to bother!
Or perhaps some don't have the time and rely on the reporting of the OP. Why attack them?
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