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Old 17th July 2019, 04:27 AM   #41
cullennz
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Not actually sure why you are so sensitive about it tbf
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

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Old 17th July 2019, 04:57 AM   #42
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Are you talking to me?
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Old 17th July 2019, 05:02 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Not at all

I was just extrapolating from a post saying a cop in uniform is officially always on duty.
What the post in question actually said:

"A Policeman is on official duty ALL THE TIME while in his uniform and on his shift"

Why you chose to ignore everything that was posted after the words "in uniform" is something I don't really understand but maybe you can explain it.
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Old 17th July 2019, 05:08 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And yet of course nothing happens when a real cop does this. Got to love the double standards.
So what?
Should the gusrd be allowed topullhis gun on a cop?
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Old 17th July 2019, 05:08 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
What the post in question actually said:

"A Policeman is on official duty ALL THE TIME while in his uniform and on his shift"

Why you chose to ignore everything that was posted after the words "in uniform" is something I don't really understand but maybe you can explain it.
It ain't that complicated.

I just took that bit and then extrapolated it must carry over to other situations. It was separate to the subject.

It was actually just pure curiosity of a rule that was a bit odd to me.

If no one wants verify if cops can drink in uniform, while technically off duty, while always being on duty, or not it is not going to ruin my day
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

Last edited by cullennz; 17th July 2019 at 05:11 AM.
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Old 17th July 2019, 05:19 AM   #46
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Probably just should have asked what not on duty but still shift means
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 17th July 2019, 05:23 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
It ain't that complicated.

I just took that bit and then extrapolated it must carry over to other situations. It was separate to the subject.

It was actually just pure curiosity of a rule that was a bit odd to me.

If no one wants verify if cops can drink in uniform, while technically off duty, while always being on duty, or not it is not going to ruin my day
No this is simply a silly derail. Plain clothes cops (in "uniform" because they have their badge) do drink on duty. Sometimes at lunch (and I have had drinks with heaps of on duty plain clothes cops) and sometimes as part of their undercover duties.

Please get back on topic.
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Old 17th July 2019, 05:28 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
So what?

Should the gusrd be allowed topullhis gun on a cop?
If that's his job, then yes.
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Old 17th July 2019, 05:30 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
No this is simply a silly derail. Plain clothes cops (in "uniform" because they have their badge) do drink on duty. Sometimes at lunch (and I have had drinks with heaps of on duty plain clothes cops) and sometimes as part of their undercover duties.

Please get back on topic.

All good. We weren't talking about plain clothes though

She is a fairly simple question

Surprised you can't answer it
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 17th July 2019, 05:33 AM   #50
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Department policy isn't the security guard's problem. If policy states that a cop in uniform must carry his service pistol, but the security of the building won't allow a cop to carry a gun while conducting personal business, then the cop will just have to come back not in uniform. Department policy is between the officer and the department. Any inconvenience as a consequence of this policy is the cop's problem and there is no requirement for society to make accommodation.

The Security guard was well within his rights to tell the cop to disarm. He went too far when he brandished a weapon at a non-aggressive person just trying to leave the building.
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Old 17th July 2019, 05:58 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If that's his job, then yes.
But he pulled the gun on a black guy and so it becomes an issue of racism. Look at the OP. The race of the cop is a prominent component. This thread is another standard "while black" thread.

The discussion of laws, rules and procedures is a red herring because the OP carries the assumption that none of this would have happened if the cop was white. That's the whole point of "while black" threads.
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Old 17th July 2019, 06:15 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If that's his job, then yes.
Oh come on. Can you reasonably imagine a job in a first world country (yes I know the US might be marginal at the moment) where a guard can rightly pull a gun on a cop in these circumstances? Did you watch the video, because some in this thread have said they haven’t?
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Old 17th July 2019, 06:24 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Oh come on. Can you reasonably imagine a job in a first world country (yes I know the US might be marginal at the moment) where a guard can rightly pull a gun on a cop in these circumstances? Did you watch the video, because some in this thread have said they haven’t?
He is guarding a federal building, IRS offices have been targets for attacks many times. This isn't like a mall cop.
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Old 17th July 2019, 06:45 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
I found that strange as well. The notice he received would have had a phone number. There are IRS websites with phone numbers.

This particular IRS location does accept people to come in and meet with IRS employees. But that is by appointment only. To make an appointment, he would have had to call that facility. If he called he facility, I expect they would have just given him a phone number rather than schedule an appointment just for that purpose.

Maybe he thought they accepted people without an appointment. But that information is easily found on-line. And wouldn't it be easier to call that office instead of stop in?

I would think that a police officer would know that you can't take a gun into a Federal facility unless you are conducting official police business.

I'm not sure how that all fits into this whole scenario, but I do find it odd.
Yeah, going into a TAC to discuss a notice will not get you anywhere. They don't have the training, or the tools for collection issues, to resolve anything.

Also, in my experience, they do not make arrests on federal grounds. If they want to arrest an employee, they request that the employee be brought out to them.

I do not know the layout of that building, but I think he was turned back at the security checkpoint and told that he may not bring in his firearm into the TAC. He might be correct as a matter of law, but pulling his gun was a mistake.

Of course, I go back to the notion he was asking for a phone number that was on the notice he received. Call that.
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Old 17th July 2019, 07:02 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Stupid situation

But why would anyone go to a branch to get a phone number?

I'm assuming the IRS has a website and an enquiry phone number
I assume he just stopped by because he was nearby.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Tax seems to a stupidly complicated system in the US.

Could never work out why they can't make it more automated like most other places
Because we are stupid. Also, crazyass anti-tax Zealot Grover Nordquist thinks simplifying taxes is a tax cut and there is a large industry devoted to doing taxes. From what I gather, its not actually that much more complicated than most other developed nations its just that the we make our own sausage where most other nations the government makes your sausage and sends it to you for review afterword.

Diffuse harm and concentrated benefits is a problem for democracy.

Edit to add.
I watched the video and it seems to be exactly as the deputy says then the guard follows him out the door with his gun drawn. I suspect he'd just watched the terminator. Unless the Cop said something like, "**** you I'm going to go shoot some innocent people" it seems pretty unjustified. The guard should get fired and probably loose his guards license, but he's a government employee so they'll probably give in payed leave and reassign him to some better job.

Side note, as a former security guard, nobody hates cops more than a certain set of security guards. The guys that just weren't quite good enough to be cops are pretty much all ****-up ********.

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Old 17th July 2019, 09:10 AM   #56
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It is my opinion that the guard should have his right to own or possess a firearm revoked, as should anyone who violates gun laws.

The NRA would argue that if he had purchased more guns he would have been more confident and not have been forced to violate the law
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Old 17th July 2019, 09:29 AM   #57
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Once again we are seeing the arrogance of US police and the resulting disconnect that occurs between them and what they derisively call "civilians".

As a Canadian cop - I would never have thought it would be appropriate for me to enter into a building that was not open to the public without appointment to get personal business done that I could easily have completed like everybody else by telephone or other means.
As a cop - you do NOT have the right to expect special treatment for personal business whether on duty or off. This cop was expecting to obtain something that the average citizen could not have obtained by using his position as a police officer. That makes him lower than a snakes belly to me. I would have had no problem bringing forth Code of Conduct proceedings against such a person under my supervision.

If this cop was properly trained (what a tragedy that such an incompetent self-entitled individual is a trainer) - the proper "de-escalation" would have been for him to apologize to the security guard for creating a problem by appearing with his firearm on personal business and then leaving immediately.
He could have returned at a later time when he was not on duty and not carrying a firearm. Oh - wait...he couldn't do that because he would not have been able to get the special privilege or service he thought he was entitled to as a cop!

As far as the security guard - his lawyer should be able to pull up dozens of cases where people dressed in uniform pretending to be cops have committed crimes. Personally - I think this will all fade into obscurity after everybody's feathers unruffle.
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Old 17th July 2019, 09:30 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
... but he's a government employee so they'll probably give in payed leave and reassign him to some better job.
He is a contractor. Almost all security services are contracted out.

Many years ago, I was contracted to teach FBI agents some Excel tricks. The security was private. Struck me as funny, since they are a law enforcement agent, but the agent in charge said something that makes sense. They can contract it out for 20 bucks an hour, or whatever it was at the time, or pay a full time agent who costs more and isn't doing more specialized work.
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Old 17th July 2019, 09:38 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Once again we are seeing the arrogance of US police and the resulting disconnect that occurs between them and what they derisively call "civilians".

As a Canadian cop - I would never have thought it would be appropriate for me to enter into a building that was not open to the public without appointment to get personal business done that I could easily have completed like everybody else by telephone or other means.
As a cop - you do NOT have the right to expect special treatment for personal business whether on duty or off. This cop was expecting to obtain something that the average citizen could not have obtained by using his position as a police officer. That makes him lower than a snakes belly to me.
Was he looking for special treatment or just for the convenience of being near the place?

Quote:
As far as the security guard - his lawyer should be able to pull up dozens of cases where people dressed in uniform pretending to be cops have committed crimes.
In real life or movies?
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Old 17th July 2019, 10:01 AM   #60
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I suppose knowing if the cop was allowed to do what he did doesn't just apply to this case, but to any cop who wants to go into an IRS office.

It seems they can enter the building with their gun in "the lawful performance of official duties". And we've had posters say uniformed cops are always on duty, and one say always on official duty for emphasis.

But is there a distinction between being in the office on private business while on duty and being in the office in order to perform official duties?

(Reminds me of an example case of a bus driver who took his bus on a joyride and crashed - driving the bus was his job, but the joyride was considered "a frolic of his own devising" so he wasn't at work and the bus company wasn't liable.)
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Old 17th July 2019, 11:10 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Was he looking for special treatment or just for the convenience of being near the place?
In real life or movies?
Unless his piece of paper said to appear at that specific address without an appointment - any reasonable person would not have thought to just drop by. Especially with a gun on their hip.
edited to add: The fact that he did not leave or surrender his firearm when asked proves that he thought he was in a privileged position.

As for people wearing cop uniforms:

"As long as police officers have worn uniforms and carried badges, criminals have dressed like them to try to win the trust of potential victims. Now the impersonators are far more sophisticated, according to nearly a dozen city police chiefs and detectives across the country.

In South Florida, seemingly an incubator of law-breaking innovation, police impersonators have become better organized and, most troubling to law enforcement officials, more violent. The practice is so common that the Miami-Dade Police Department has a Police Impersonator Unit."

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/29/us/29fakecops.html
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Old 17th July 2019, 12:00 PM   #62
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One of the dirty little secrets of "security" at Federal buildings is that the companies the feds contract with are a cut below the average security company - lot's of turnover and civilians that can't make it into an LEA that can't wait to carry a piece.

Don't even get me started about HUD cops.
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Old 17th July 2019, 12:02 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Unless his piece of paper said to appear at that specific address without an appointment - any reasonable person would not have thought to just drop by. Especially with a gun on their hip.
Well I sure wouldn't have diverted from my job to go make a personal errand. Still, if he's not allowed to leave his firearm behind while on-duty he acted properly as far as that's concerned.

Quote:
As for people wearing cop uniforms:
Yeah but it sounds like an excuse to just ignore what we see. How likely is it that someone in an official police uniform is actually a fake?
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Old 17th July 2019, 12:13 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
This particular IRS location does accept people to come in and meet with IRS employees. But that is by appointment only. To make an appointment, he would have had to call that facility. If he called he facility, I expect they would have just given him a phone number rather than schedule an appointment just for that purpose.
Where did you get this information?

https://www.irs.gov/help/contact-my-...office-in-ohio
https://www.irs.gov/help/services-provided-six
I didn't see anything at the 2nd link that requires an appointment to be in the building. I suppose that an appointment might be required though.

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Old 17th July 2019, 12:19 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Hilited: No. He was on duty on private business. I believe that since cops in uniform are considered to be on duty through their whole shift, they have to go to the bathroom, run errands, have lunch, etc... while "on duty". Further, he's not allowed to leave his gun in the car. They don't phone in a "time out, cap'n I'm taking a break".
They have to make doody while on duty?
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Old 17th July 2019, 12:34 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Unless his piece of paper said to appear at that specific address without an appointment - any reasonable person would not have thought to just drop by. Especially with a gun on their hip.
edited to add: The fact that he did not leave or surrender his firearm when asked proves that he thought he was in a privileged position.

As for people wearing cop uniforms:

"As long as police officers have worn uniforms and carried badges, criminals have dressed like them to try to win the trust of potential victims. Now the impersonators are far more sophisticated, according to nearly a dozen city police chiefs and detectives across the country.

In South Florida, seemingly an incubator of law-breaking innovation, police impersonators have become better organized and, most troubling to law enforcement officials, more violent. The practice is so common that the Miami-Dade Police Department has a Police Impersonator Unit."

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/29/us/29fakecops.html
You're making the assumption that the security officer had actual authority over the deputy and an order to disarm was lawful.

Going by the fact that the SG drew down on the deputy and attempted to effect an arrest - which hasn't gone well for him - I believe the SG was out-of-line, not the deputy.
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Old 17th July 2019, 12:47 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well I sure wouldn't have diverted from my job to go make a personal errand. Still, if he's not allowed to leave his firearm behind while on-duty he acted properly as far as that's concerned.
Of course he should not leave his firearm in his vehicle. I am stating that he should not have been there in the first place. More important - he should not have continued further into the office area against the security guards orders. That type of behaviour in a uniformed police officer on private business is outrageous.



Quote:
Yeah but it sounds like an excuse to just ignore what we see. How likely is it that someone in an official police uniform is actually a fake?
I dunno.
How likely is it that someone would enter a government facility and shoot the people there? It does happen. That is why they have armed guards.
We do know that people dress up as cops to allay suspicions and get access to areas that non-LEOs cannot access. According to the article I linked above - it is happening more and more often and becoming a major concern to many police agencies in the US.
I would suggest that the odds are really small - but it would not be outside the realm of possibility.
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Last edited by rockinkt; 17th July 2019 at 12:52 PM. Reason: reword paragraph one
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Old 17th July 2019, 12:49 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
You're making the assumption that the security officer had actual authority over the deputy and an order to disarm was lawful.

Going by the fact that the SG drew down on the deputy and attempted to effect an arrest - which hasn't gone well for him - I believe the SG was out-of-line, not the deputy.
I have to agree with this. The security guard is within his rights to ask the officer to leave. This is nothing special, any property owner (or their agent) can trespass a cop. A cop should not surrender his service weapon to a rent-a-cop.

The security guard would have been fine if he just told the cop that he must leave. Holding him at gunpoint was a massive overstep, hence the criminal charge.
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Old 17th July 2019, 01:04 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I have to agree with this. The security guard is within his rights to ask the officer to leave. This is nothing special, any property owner (or their agent) can trespass a cop. A cop should not surrender his service weapon to a rent-a-cop.

The security guard would have been fine if he just told the cop that he must leave. Holding him at gunpoint was a massive overstep, hence the criminal charge.
I never ran into a situation otj where an individual requested that I disarm (outside of jail facilities, etc) and if somebody told me my business wasn't wanted because I was in uniform I'd split and not return.
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Old 17th July 2019, 01:14 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I have to agree with this. The security guard is within his rights to ask the officer to leave. This is nothing special, any property owner (or their agent) can trespass a cop. A cop should not surrender his service weapon to a rent-a-cop.

The security guard would have been fine if he just told the cop that he must leave. Holding him at gunpoint was a massive overstep, hence the criminal charge.
The IRS or whoever employs the security guard probably trained him on the actions he is required to take in various situations. Are you sure the guard was correct in asking the police officer to leave?
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Old 17th July 2019, 01:15 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Can I defend the guard?

The deputy was off duty on private business. Whether he was in uniform or not is irrelevant, he was off duty and not on official business so was functioning as a private citizen. It sounds like he is in dispute with the IRS.

My understanding is that private citizens are not allowed to bring weapons into federal offices. The guard was enforcing the law.

Just suppose things had gone a little differently; 'deputy threatened with bankruptcy by IRS pulls his gun and shoots x people at IRS offices'.

My guess is the USDA will not want to escalate but potentially the deputy might be charged with a federal offence. Hopefully there will be legal de-escalation; the security guard did the correct thing.
OMG! Are you another person who didn't read the report????????

Guard tells cop he can't bring gun in, he needs to put it in his car.
Cop tells guard it is against police policy to leave his weapon in the car.
Not good enough for the guard.
Cop leaves.

At no point did the cop insist on staying with the gun.



And who do you mean by, "USDA"
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Old 17th July 2019, 01:19 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I am happy to be corrected on this distinction.
He was on duty on a break during which time police are mandated to keep their gun with them.

But none of this is relevant. You need to review the OP link.
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Old 17th July 2019, 01:27 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
I found that strange as well. The notice he received would have had a phone number. There are IRS websites with phone numbers.

This particular IRS location does accept people to come in and meet with IRS employees. But that is by appointment only. To make an appointment, he would have had to call that facility. If he called he facility, I expect they would have just given him a phone number rather than schedule an appointment just for that purpose.

Maybe he thought they accepted people without an appointment. But that information is easily found on-line. And wouldn't it be easier to call that office instead of stop in?

I would think that a police officer would know that you can't take a gun into a Federal facility unless you are conducting official police business.

I'm not sure how that all fits into this whole scenario, but I do find it odd.
Some folks here have no idea how difficult it is to get simple issues resolved with the IRS.

You cannot call any local office, they don't take calls. You have to call the main number.

Some offices do accept people without an appointment. But also, you don't know until you get there that you need an appointment.

The two police who responded had guns. It's an odd expectation that the cop would know he couldn't go in uniform with his gun into the IRS office.


Why are so many people in this thread missing the point the cop left as soon as he found out he couldn't bring the gun in. Bizarro wannabe cop followed him out, gun drawn, and wanted to arrest the cop.
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Old 17th July 2019, 01:31 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Or maybe he drove past the IRS office and thought "Oh, I need some information, I'll just pop in". Maybe he could have thought it through a bit, but nothing defends the behaviour of the guard, who will lose every penny in the civil suits. To go with a prison sentence. ....
There's nothing to think through. He had business to take care of, he went to the office on his break.

I know you're not from the US but we have these IRS offices all over the place. Lots of people go there for a multitude of reasons from minor to major. I've been in their office trying to get an issue resolved and no, it was not something I could do on the phone. There was nothing unusual about the cop stopping in the office because he needed a phone number.
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Old 17th July 2019, 02:04 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
The IRS or whoever employs the security guard probably trained him on the actions he is required to take in various situations. Are you sure the guard was correct in asking the police officer to leave?
#1 Being the duty to observe and report. I'd be interested in reading the SG's daily log.
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Old 17th July 2019, 02:55 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Or perhaps some don't have the time and rely on the reporting of the OP. Why attack them?
What does that mean, they didn't read the OP or they didn't look at the cite?

What the hell are they discussing then?
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Old 17th July 2019, 02:58 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If that's his job, then yes [as long as it's for cause].
ftfy
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Old 17th July 2019, 03:05 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Department policy isn't the security guard's problem. If policy states that a cop in uniform must carry his service pistol, but the security of the building won't allow a cop to carry a gun while conducting personal business, then the cop will just have to come back not in uniform. ... [snip]

The Security guard was well within his rights to tell the cop to disarm [leave]. He went too far when he brandished a weapon at a non-aggressive person just trying to leave the building.
Bingo! But I ALSO FTFY.

I don't think at this point the guard had any reason to try to take the cop's gun when the cop was leaving.

At no point is it apparent on the video why the guard got all weirded out. And following the cop who was calmly leaving? WTF?
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Old 17th July 2019, 03:10 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
But he pulled the gun on a black guy and so it becomes an issue of racism. Look at the OP. The race of the cop is a prominent component. This thread is another standard "while black" thread.

The discussion of laws, rules and procedures is a red herring because the OP carries the assumption that none of this would have happened if the cop was white. That's the whole point of "while black" threads.
I don't know if racism was involved or not. Nor did I say racism was involved. But race was worth mention, IMO, because of all the relevant current events.

If someone wants to post a thread showing a black cop doing a good deed, I thought it was relevant to post a black cop who acted appropriately and didn't get aggressive.

That the black cop didn't shoot the white guy didn't cross my mind when I started the thread. Is that what some of you are complaining about? You think that was the point of the thread?

This cop is an excellent example that cops don't need to get aggressive. His ethnicity wasn't relevant to that part of the thread.
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Old 17th July 2019, 03:23 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Yeah, going into a TAC to discuss a notice will not get you anywhere. They don't have the training, or the tools for collection issues, to resolve anything.

Also, in my experience, they do not make arrests on federal grounds. If they want to arrest an employee, they request that the employee be brought out to them.

I do not know the layout of that building, but I think he was turned back at the security checkpoint and told that he may not bring in his firearm into the TAC. He might be correct as a matter of law, but pulling his gun was a mistake.

Of course, I go back to the notion he was asking for a phone number that was on the notice he received. Call that.
What's a TAC?

First, why wouldn't going in, in-person be useful?
Second, if there is a phone number on the form the cop got, chances are ~100% it was the general IRS number and it's very likely the cop wanted a more specific department contact.

The cop walked in. In the entry are shelves of forms. That's the same as in the IRS office I went into. Generally there are a few rows of chairs in a small waiting room and a row of windows the agents are at. The armed guard stands around the little waiting room without a lot to do.

There was no check point, no metal detector, it's just an office waiting room.
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