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Old 17th July 2019, 03:27 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
... The guard should get fired and probably loose his guards license, but he's a government employee so they'll probably give in payed leave and reassign him to some better job. ...
Not necessarily. Despite the fact the US has a gazillion military and police forces, sometimes the feds are going to contract with a security agency. The guy might be employed by an agency.
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Old 17th July 2019, 03:30 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Once again we are seeing the arrogance of US police and the resulting disconnect that occurs between them and what they derisively call "civilians".

As a Canadian cop - I would never have thought it would be appropriate for me to enter into a building that was not open to the public without appointment to get personal business done that I could easily have completed like everybody else by telephone or other means.
As a cop - you do NOT have the right to expect special treatment for personal business whether on duty or off. This cop was expecting to obtain something that the average citizen could not have obtained by using his position as a police officer. That makes him lower than a snakes belly to me. I would have had no problem bringing forth Code of Conduct proceedings against such a person under my supervision.

If this cop was properly trained (what a tragedy that such an incompetent self-entitled individual is a trainer) - the proper "de-escalation" would have been for him to apologize to the security guard for creating a problem by appearing with his firearm on personal business and then leaving immediately.
He could have returned at a later time when he was not on duty and not carrying a firearm. Oh - wait...he couldn't do that because he would not have been able to get the special privilege or service he thought he was entitled to as a cop!

As far as the security guard - his lawyer should be able to pull up dozens of cases where people dressed in uniform pretending to be cops have committed crimes. Personally - I think this will all fade into obscurity after everybody's feathers unruffle.
Is this a Poe?

This has turned into the most bizarre thread.

In case you aren't kidding, that was the IRS office open to the public.
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Old 17th July 2019, 03:36 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Unless his piece of paper said to appear at that specific address without an appointment - any reasonable person would not have thought to just drop by. ...


This is the public IRS office. Why would there even be a guard there if it were offices that don't see citizens? In those offices you can't get in without an employee badge that opens the door.


Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
The practice is so common that the Miami-Dade Police Department has a Police Impersonator Unit."

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/29/us/29fakecops.html
Yes but the cop DID HAVE A LEGIT REASON TO BE THERE AND HE LEFT RIGHT AWAY. So that hypothesis should be in the back of the security guard's mind, but hardly something the situation looked like.
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Old 17th July 2019, 03:39 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Where did you get this information?

https://www.irs.gov/help/contact-my-...office-in-ohio
https://www.irs.gov/help/services-provided-six
I didn't see anything at the 2nd link that requires an appointment to be in the building. I suppose that an appointment might be required though.

Ranb
For the record, because I have been in the IRS office just like this one, a couple years ago you came in and took a number. More recently you need an appointment, but this differs by the office and how crowded they are.
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Old 17th July 2019, 03:42 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Of course he should not leave his firearm in his vehicle. I am stating that he should not have been there in the first place. More important - he should not have continued further into the office area against the security guards orders. That type of behaviour in a uniformed police officer on private business is outrageous.


Should not have been there: WRONG!
Should not have continued further into the WAITING ROOM: Right and it looks like that is what happened.
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Old 17th July 2019, 03:45 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
The IRS or whoever employs the security guard probably trained him on the actions he is required to take in various situations. Are you sure the guard was correct in asking the police officer to leave?
My guess is there is a hole in the SOPs for this situation, but that is just a guess.
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Old 17th July 2019, 03:50 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
There's nothing to think through. He had business to take care of, he went to the office on his break.

I know you're not from the US but we have these IRS offices all over the place. Lots of people go there for a multitude of reasons from minor to major. I've been in their office trying to get an issue resolved and no, it was not something I could do on the phone. There was nothing unusual about the cop stopping in the office because he needed a phone number.
He had the phone number. It was on the notice. That makes it unusual.

For most issues, there is nothing someone working at a TAC can do to help any issues. Yes, you may need to go in for exam or other compliance issues, but the vast majority of problems can be resolved over the phone.

His issue is probably one of them since he was there to get a phone number.
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Old 17th July 2019, 03:54 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
This is supposed to be racist?

Of course it is... for those who are always looking for "racial injustices." It follows a well-established pattern on this site. Find a random story on the web that can be perceived as a racist white person unfairly treating a black person(no evidence of racism required), post a link, pretend to be outraged, then join in on the self-congratulatory circle jerk of virtue.

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Old 17th July 2019, 03:54 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Where did you get this information?

https://www.irs.gov/help/contact-my-...office-in-ohio
https://www.irs.gov/help/services-provided-six
I didn't see anything at the 2nd link that requires an appointment to be in the building. I suppose that an appointment might be required though.

Ranb
Might want to review the first link. It's in bold:

All Taxpayer Assistance Centers (TACs) now operate by appointment.
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Old 17th July 2019, 04:10 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
The IRS or whoever employs the security guard probably trained him on the actions he is required to take in various situations. Are you sure the guard was correct in asking the police officer to leave?
He was probably correct. Federal law prohibits all but a select few to be armed in a federal building. The police aren't usually allowed free access, even when chasing a suspected felon. So it's quite possible the security guy was correct in not allowing the deputy access. The deputy was also probably right in that he can't secure his weapon in his car. But federal laws supersede department regulations.

True story, a crash happened outside my locations secure parking lot. Stolen car. The driver though it would be smart to sprint past security and hide in our lot. The police were allowed to watch the gates, but were not permitted to enter. The building went into lockdown, nobody in or out, and security swept the lot and found said suspect, hooked him up, marched him to the gates and handed him over. Why he thought running into a parking lot fenced in with wire atop was a good idea, nobody asked.
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Old 17th July 2019, 05:13 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Might want to review the first link. It's in bold:

All Taxpayer Assistance Centers (TACs) now operate by appointment.
I saw that. But does it imply that anyone who gets through the door without an appointment gets chased off at gun point? Probably not. Does everyone have to check in with the security guard?
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Old 17th July 2019, 08:36 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
So I take it there is a law that says all LEO's can never drink off duty while wearing a uniform?
Did you actually read the post you are responding to, or did you just knee jerk the first thought that popped into your head?

Here's a clue

I said "A Policeman is on official duty ALL THE TIME while in his uniform and on his shift"

You said "So I take it there is a law that says all LEO's can never drink off duty while wearing a uniform?"

And You said "I was just extrapolating from a post saying a cop in uniform is officially always on duty.

One of these thing is not like the others!
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Old 17th July 2019, 08:59 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Probably just should have asked what not on duty but still shift means
Wait! You don't know what a duty shift is? You don't understand that cops work in shifts? Really?
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Old 17th July 2019, 09:26 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
That type of behaviour in a uniformed police officer on private business is outrageous.
Since when is the IRS a private business?
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Old 17th July 2019, 09:30 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
You're making the assumption that the security officer had actual authority over the deputy and an order to disarm was lawful.

Going by the fact that the SG drew down on the deputy and attempted to effect an arrest - which hasn't gone well for him - I believe the SG was out-of-line, not the deputy.
'


Indeed. Wannabe Mall Cop drew down on the deputy, from behind, while the deputy was leaving the building.

The fact that Wannabe Mall Cop has been arrested and charged pretty much shows there the fault lies.

I am quite certain that had the deputy been white, none of this would have happened.
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Old 17th July 2019, 09:36 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Since when is the IRS a private business?
You misread that, he/she was saying the police officer was on private business I. E. Not carrying out his duties as a police officer but dealing with a personal issue.
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Old 17th July 2019, 09:38 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
He had the phone number. It was on the notice. That makes it unusual.

For most issues, there is nothing someone working at a TAC can do to help any issues. Yes, you may need to go in for exam or other compliance issues, but the vast majority of problems can be resolved over the phone.

His issue is probably one of them since he was there to get a phone number.
What phone number?

This sidetrack is just wrong. You're just making up some imaginary scenario that fits with your false assumptions.

This repeating theme in the thread boggles my mind.

There was nothing unusual about the cop going to the IRS office. PERIOD.

Even if there had been, and there wasn't, it's not relevant to the thread. Is there some issue that the cop's imaginary fake reason to go to the IRS office had anything to do with security cop-wannabe pulling his gun and all the crap that followed?
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Old 17th July 2019, 09:40 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Of course it is... for those who are always looking for "racial injustices." It follows a well-established pattern on this site. Find a random story on the web that can be perceived as a racist white person unfairly treating a black person(no evidence of racism required), post a link, pretend to be outraged, then join in on the self-congratulatory circle jerk of virtue.
In a follow up news report the accosted cop reported he felt racism contributed to the cop wanna-be's reaction.
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Old 17th July 2019, 09:42 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Might want to review the first link. It's in bold:

All Taxpayer Assistance Centers (TACs) now operate by appointment.
Gawd, finally someone notes what a TAC is.

How was the cop supposed to know this?
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Old 17th July 2019, 09:49 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
He was probably correct. Federal law prohibits all but a select few to be armed in a federal building. The police aren't usually allowed free access, even when chasing a suspected felon. So it's quite possible the security guy was correct in not allowing the deputy access. The deputy was also probably right in that he can't secure his weapon in his car. But federal laws supersede department regulations.

True story, a crash happened outside my locations secure parking lot. Stolen car. The driver though it would be smart to sprint past security and hide in our lot. The police were allowed to watch the gates, but were not permitted to enter. The building went into lockdown, nobody in or out, and security swept the lot and found said suspect, hooked him up, marched him to the gates and handed him over. Why he thought running into a parking lot fenced in with wire atop was a good idea, nobody asked.
I call bull **** on that highlighted part.

1) Whatever happened in your 'parking lot' has nothing to do with people going into a public IRS office.

2) Armed officers arrived when called, (probably with the same department as the accosted cop). No one told them to wait outside the waiting room while the security guard took care of the 'suspect' and brought him out.
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Old 17th July 2019, 09:53 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I saw that. But does it imply that anyone who gets through the door without an appointment gets chased off at gun point? Probably not. Does everyone have to check in with the security guard?
Exactly. Been there, the guard is just there. S/he has no job to do unless someone gets angry. They don't check you in. They don't man the door.

It's similar in the Social Security Office but that guard acted like an information source. He didn't check anyone in. He asked what you were there for and directed you the the check-in kiosk.
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Old 17th July 2019, 09:57 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
....

I am quite certain that had the deputy been white, none of this would have happened.
IMO, one has more reason to agree with this than not.
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Old 17th July 2019, 09:59 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Wait! You don't know what a duty shift is? You don't understand that cops work in shifts? Really?
Well no, or I wouldn't have asked the question.



I get you are on duty or not on duty.

Does shift mean still on call but sitting around doing **** all?

Or are you only on duty when you leave the station?

I was a fairly basic question
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Old 17th July 2019, 10:04 PM   #104
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Let me explain

The only shift work I know of is stuff like my Aunt who is an hospital AE nurse.

It basically means the place is open 24/7 and she does a shift (on the job) and then another lot take over.

So the bit I don't get is what is the difference between being on duty as a cop and doing your shift?

I just assumed if it was their shift time they would always be on duty
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Old 17th July 2019, 10:18 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Where did you get this information?

https://www.irs.gov/help/contact-my-...office-in-ohio
https://www.irs.gov/help/services-provided-six
I didn't see anything at the 2nd link that requires an appointment to be in the building. I suppose that an appointment might be required though.

Ranb
The first link says, "All Taxpayer Assistance Centers (TACs) now operate by appointment."

Also see:

https://taxpayeradvocate.irs.gov/new...son-assistance
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Old 17th July 2019, 10:31 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
The first link says, "All Taxpayer Assistance Centers (TACs) now operate by appointment."

Also see:

https://taxpayeradvocate.irs.gov/new...son-assistance
It's so predictable that I will be ignored.

"How was the cop supposed to know this?"

Think it's possible people who are aware there is a public IRS office are not aware of some new reg one needs an appointment?

Think it's possible people who are aware there is a public IRS office think maybe they can go in and ask for a phone number and maybe for something so simple one doesn't need an appointment to ask that question?

Especially given to get such an appointment the wait on the phone is an hour?

And let's add, regardless of what the cop did or didn't know, none of that was the issue the guard had.
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Old 18th July 2019, 12:34 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
The IRS or whoever employs the security guard probably trained him on the actions he is required to take in various situations. Are you sure the guard was correct in asking the police officer to leave?
We don't have enough information to know.

A Federal Protective Services FAQ for federal facilities is here:

https://www.dhs.gov/faq-regarding-it...eral-property#

Whether or not the deputy was considered "on-duty" or not, this was not an official duty. That is general defined as an action required by or designated by an entity such that the person is preforming an action of the entity. This was personal business, not police business.

From the FAQ: "It is unlawful for armed state or local law enforcement officers to possess a firearm in a Federal facility unless there is an official law enforcement purpose for the visit."

The guard would be correct in telling the deputy that he can be in the facility with the gun. That raises the question of exactly where the facility begins and ends. It's an office in what appears to be a non-federal building.

The law requires that there be a notice posted that weapons are not permitted (18 USC 930(h)). A court may find that a violation of 18 USC 930 occurs only if a weapon is carried beyond the point of that sign. We don't know where the sign is. Alternatively, a court may find that the sign, no matter its location, applies to the entire facility, as established by property or leasing lines, once a person has seen the sign.

The FAQ says that a person is subject to detention and arrest if they attempt to bring in an illegal prohibited item or they refuse to comply with access procedures once the screening process has been initiated. It does not appear screening was initiated. The police officer would be legal allowed to carry a gun. Whether or not the gun would be considered an illegal item is a bit nebulous; it gets back the sign placement and whether we would accept a rather circular argument: an item that is legal but prohibited becomes an illegal prohibited item because it is prohibited.

If the deputy had not passed the sign, the facility may still have policies regarding prohibited items in a lobby area (or parking lot, etc.). Each facility has its own policies established by a committee. For example, a person with a legal gun in the lobby may not be breaking a law, but in violation of policy and be told to leave. That would become a trespassing issue. I doubt the laws of this jurisdiction allow for detaining trespassers.


Of course this is all details down in the weeds. The practical matter is that FPS policy is to tell someone with a legal gun that they can't come in, not to detain them as the guard apparently attempted to do. It does not appear that the deputy was posing any threat. It appears he was trying to leave, as instructed.

But we also have a call to the police that the deputy refused to leave. We don't know what prompted that. The video shows the deputy entering and then cuts to him leaving. Something obviously happened in between that we don't see.

As always, we have to be careful with this type of story. The primary news source presents a biased story. We only hear from one side. We have limited details. We have missing video. The deputy is obviously saying the thing his lawyer wants him to say. This is a one-sided adversarial argument to drum up public outrage and build a court case. We don't know the whole of the events.
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Old 18th July 2019, 01:23 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's so predictable that I will be ignored.

"How was the cop supposed to know this?"

Think it's possible people who are aware there is a public IRS office are not aware of some new reg one needs an appointment?

Think it's possible people who are aware there is a public IRS office think maybe they can go in and ask for a phone number and maybe for something so simple one doesn't need an appointment to ask that question?

Especially given to get such an appointment the wait on the phone is an hour?

And let's add, regardless of what the cop did or didn't know, none of that was the issue the guard had.
I addressed that in my previous post:

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
Maybe he thought they accepted people without an appointment. But that information is easily found on-line. And wouldn't it be easier to call that office instead of stop in?

I would think that a police officer would know that you can't take a gun into a Federal facility unless you are conducting official police business.

I'm not sure how that all fits into this whole scenario, but I do find it odd.
I doubt the wait time for the phone number for this local facility is one hour.

I brought up the appointment issue because not all federal offices or IRS locations accept public visits. To know that this office does, he would have had to looked at a website or called them, which would tell him he needs an appointment.

If he got a letter, I would assume he would call the phone number on the letter. If that doesn't work and he wants a different number, I would expect someone to check on-line. He would find a phone number for this local office. He would call it. They would give him the information or set up an appointment.

I'm not saying his actions were entirely unreasonable. Maybe he was driving on patrol. He saw this IRs office. He needed to take a break and use the restroom. He figure he could do that and just pop in to the IRS office to ask his question.

I'm sure people just stop in to ask questions without realizing they need an appointment. I just find it odd to do that when all you need is a phone number. Why not just call? Especially if you would otherwise be going into a federal facility with a gun, cop or not.

But some people like to do things the old fashioned way. Or it is a matter of a type of convenience.

Again, I don't think it really has anything to do with anything. But it did strike me as a bit odd.
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Old 18th July 2019, 02:19 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
But does it imply that anyone who gets through the door without an appointment gets chased off at gun point?
No.

Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Does everyone have to check in with the security guard?
I would assume all non-employees would be required to check in with the guard. Employees would have an alternative secure method of entrance. Certain contractors would likely have the same type of access.
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Old 18th July 2019, 02:34 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Tax seems to a stupidly complicated system in the US.

Could never work out why they can't make it more automated like most other places
I'm constantly amazed at how archaic and complex the US system seems to be. I've come to the conclusion that having all the weird deductibles is a cunning ploy to make the population think that by "reducing" the headline tax rate, they're paying "low tax," even though for most they may be no lower or actually higher than those in what they are convinced are "high tax" countries.
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Old 18th July 2019, 02:35 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
The cop is suffering emotional and psychological distress and has lost wages due to this episode. What a scammer! Result!

I would hope that your average cop in the US was prepared to have a gun pulled on them at some point. Let's face it, they are not shy about pulling their own weapons and emptying them into people.

[Baylor Mode] The US cops must be the biggest **** the beds in law enforcement anywhere on the planet [/Baylor Mode]
Can I just say "LOL!" as long as your post is still here?
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Old 18th July 2019, 02:40 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
So I take it there is a law that says all LEO's can never drink off duty while wearing a uniform?
Well in the UK it is certainly a breach of a publican's licence to serve alcohol to a police officer in uniform.
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Old 18th July 2019, 04:31 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
The IRS or whoever employs the security guard probably trained him on the actions he is required to take in various situations. Are you sure the guard was correct in asking the police officer to leave?
At the moment of this encounter, the security guard is acting as the agent of the property owner. Whether or not his actions are consistent with stated policy or training are not particularly relevant at that exact moment. The guard is trespassing the cop, the only lawful action for the cop is to leave, which he did. Complaining to the guard's boss later is certainly an option.

Had the guard not gone way overboard and drawn a firearm on a compliant person leaving the building, this would have just been a customer service and public relations problem.
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Old 18th July 2019, 04:36 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I never ran into a situation otj where an individual requested that I disarm (outside of jail facilities, etc) and if somebody told me my business wasn't wanted because I was in uniform I'd split and not return.
Sure, that would be your prerogative. It is extremely unusual for businesses to not allow armed police in uniform on personal business, but that's just custom. Probably would be bad PR for most places to adopt such a policy.

When I was in college, an entire apartment complex sent a no-trespass notice to the local sheriff's department. They had made a habit of hassling tenants, mostly looking for underage drinking. Multiple reports of cops shining flashlights through windows and questioning people in common areas. They got the trespass notice and could not enter without acceptable reason.

It is rare, but these things do happen.
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Old 18th July 2019, 04:43 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
How likely is it that someone would enter a government facility and shoot the people there? It does happen.
You do realise that your answer is not realted to the question, correct?

Quote:
I would suggest that the odds are really small
Ah, there we go. That is the correct answer.

Quote:
but it would not be outside the realm of possibility.
Neither would a meteor strike.
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Old 18th July 2019, 04:45 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
What does that mean, they didn't read the OP or they didn't look at the cite?

What the hell are they discussing then?
The summary in the actual OP.
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Old 18th July 2019, 04:56 AM   #117
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I still just want to know the difference between being "on shift" and "on duty"
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Old 18th July 2019, 05:20 AM   #118
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I want to know if the cop found out there is no audio recording of the incident.

The reaction seems more like someone who just received a threat.

Or he's racist.
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Old 18th July 2019, 05:27 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I saw that. But does it imply that anyone who gets through the door without an appointment gets chased off at gun point? Probably not. Does everyone have to check in with the security guard?
Well, they do get chased off, so to speak. Without an appointment, they are not allowed to enter. Since he was in the lobby, he can't even say he was there to get forms. All available forms and pubs, those they make available, were in the public area.

Everyone does have to get past the security checkpoint, employees included. Most of the time you just need to flash your badge, but they are allowed to screen employees too.

Unless there is something else to the story, I can't justify the reaction that the security guard offered. It's really beyond the pale of anything I've ever seen out of them.
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Old 18th July 2019, 05:28 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I still just want to know the difference between being "on shift" and "on duty"
From what I can tell based on watching videos from guys like Officer 401 and Mike the Cop...

Being on Shift is when you are doing your hours, whatever they are, so say 8am to 5pm. During that time you might be on duty or off duty depending on if you are available to answer calls. For instance if you are on patrol, you are both on duty and on shift, but if you are siting in an alley somewhere doing your paper work you might be on shift, but not on duty.
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