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Old 25th July 2019, 08:57 AM   #121
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Then what's the point of mentioning it at all, not to mention as a liberal thing?
Because Meadmaker asked the question.
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Old 25th July 2019, 08:58 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm actually discussing mixed-sex facilities here. I find the male entitlement one can guarantee to find on this forum quite educational.

I'm perfectly happy to discuss tampon fetishism if that's what people want to do, but I never claimed that was a principle reason for objecting to such facilities. Even if no such thing existed, forcing teenage girls to tolerate teenage boys in their lavatories and changing rooms is still a bad idea. Forcing adult men and women to tolerate the opposite sex in their lavatories and changing rooms is also a bad idea, although the reasons tend to be rather different.
It has been pointed out several times by multiple posters that mixed sex facilities are either common or the norm in some countries. Those countries seem to function fine without the problems you describe.

How do you reconcile this?

I know there are some cultural differences, but is there that differences between European countries that there is no path from here to there culturally?

You've also stated parents stories about girls coming home crying because boys are now allowed in their bathrooms and start period shaming them. Do you have any evidence that this is widespread?

It strikes me as counter-intuitive that a boy would claim to the school to be trans so that he could access the girls' bathroom in order to make fun of them.

Why?

First, because there is currently a social cost for him to present himself as trans. (One of the things trans people are fighting, actually.) He will likely faced ridicule himself because teenage boys are little ***** as you've pointed out. (Having a daughter and seeing what she went through at that age, girls at that age appear to be worse, but that's another topic.)

Second, although teenage boys might laugh at jokes at the moment, this kids male peers are not going to see him in a positive light. They will regard the perpetrator as a sicko too.

Third, the vast majority of teenage boys want girls to like them. While they will pick on girls (and boys) for things that happen in public spaces, they don't want to be seen as a creeper.

That said, you have some valid points. Cultural norms where you and I are are different than, say, Germany in this regard so a shift to unisex is uncomfortable and is a bit of a shock. Boys and girls are ******** to each other. Etc.

These are concerns that should be listened to and addressed rather than dismissed.

But it is no more legitimate for you to dismiss the concerns of trans people and dismiss them as men looking for sexual gratification, peeping toms, exhibitionists, or some other form of perversion. The fact that there are some who are doesn't support your point as there are cis men (and women) who are equally perverted.

And this is not some case of Men (the patriarchy) imposing their will on women. These are people who do not see themselves as men. And men, as a whole, are not exactly cheering them on.

On a related note, here are a couple transgender people calling out Jessica Yaniv. They also call out prominent people in the trans-community for their silence on the case:
Blaire White

Rose of Dawn

And here's an experiment Blaire White did using the men's room at a bar in LA:
I Used The Men's Bathroom (But I'm Trans...)
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Old 25th July 2019, 09:01 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I was responding to a strawman.
Two wrongs make a right!
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Old 25th July 2019, 09:01 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The point is that there are a number of things women might find uncomfortable in the restrooms or changing rooms. Are we to ban them all?
Would we ban fat girls when some teenage girls want us to? No.
Would we ban pedophiles when some teenage girls want us to? Yes.

Therefor, clearly, an appeal to the general rule ("we wouldn't ban fat girls therefor we shouldn't ban boys") does not hold much water.
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Old 25th July 2019, 09:02 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Because Meadmaker asked the question.
Who cares? You suggested that, "as liberal progressives, they're not responding to the factuality of the claims but to the standing of the person making the claims." That is your own claim and opinion, to which I'm now responding. Being a "liberal" has nothing to do with the behaviour you describe. It's a human behaviour. It's completely irrelevant to Meadmaker's question.
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Old 25th July 2019, 09:04 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
It has been pointed out several times by multiple posters that mixed sex facilities are either common or the norm in some countries. Those countries seem to function fine without the problems you describe.
I'm just going to point out that in my particular European country, Belgium, in high school after PE we had to take a group shower (as in all of us naked together in a large group shower) and this wasn't optional. At least it was for the boys, I'm assuming the same was true for the girls.
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Old 25th July 2019, 09:07 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Would we ban fat girls when some teenage girls want us to? No.
Would we ban pedophiles when some teenage girls want us to? Yes.

Therefor, clearly, an appeal to the general rule ("we wouldn't ban fat girls therefor we shouldn't ban boys") does not hold much water.
Wow, there's so much wrong in that post, it's hard to know where to begin.

Leaving aside the fact that pedophiles aren't interested much in teenagers, we don't ban them from girl's restrooms because girls want us to. We do so because of other considerations, namely the danger we perceive to said girls. So your post fails entirely due to trying to fit two completely different reasonings into the same category and pretending that they have, in fact, the very same reasoning.

Did you not realise that when posting, or did you try to engage in a bit of, shall we say, shenanigans?

"Let's ban X because it makes group A uncomfortable" isn't a very convincing argument on its own. That's my point.
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Old 25th July 2019, 09:09 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Who cares?
Who cares about me giving a direct, accurate answer to a direct question? You, apparently, seem to care a lot.

Quote:
You suggested that, "as liberal progressives, they're not responding to the factuality of the claims but to the standing of the person making the claims." That is your own claim and opinion, to which I'm now responding. Being a "liberal" has nothing to do with the behaviour you describe. It's a human behaviour. It's completely irrelevant to Meadmaker's question.
Being a liberal does have a lot to do with the behaviour. Though it's certainly not unique to them, it gets strongly reinforced with them. Did I step on some toes here that you're making such a big deal out of this?
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Old 25th July 2019, 09:14 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Wow, there's so much wrong in that post, it's hard to know where to begin.

Leaving aside the fact that pedophiles aren't interested much in teenagers, we don't ban them from girl's restrooms because girls want us to. We do so because of other considerations, namely the danger we perceive to said girls. So your post fails entirely due to trying to fit two completely different reasonings into the same category and pretending that they have, in fact, the very same reasoning.
What danger? One can assume that they're not going to assault any of the girls, just taking a nice look while they're in the shower. And I'm not interested in the technical distinction between pedophilia and hebephilia, it's clear what I meant.

Quote:
"Let's ban X because it makes group A uncomfortable" isn't a very convincing argument on its own. That's my point.
Then let's not ban the local pedophilia group who'd like to take a nice look at the girls showering as long as there's a teacher or something to make sure they don't do anything other than looking.
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Old 25th July 2019, 09:18 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Who cares about me giving a direct, accurate answer to a direct question?
Oh, please. You responded with your opinion. And you implied that it was a liberal progressive thing. Now you're trying to walk it back.

Quote:
Being a liberal does have a lot to do with the behaviour. Though it's certainly not unique to them, it gets strongly reinforced with them.
Prove it.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
What danger?
You must be joking.

Quote:
And I'm not interested in the technical distinction between pedophilia and hebephilia
Of course not. After all, "direct, accurate" statements are really important to you.

Quote:
Then let's not ban the local pedophilia group who'd like to take a nice look at the girls showering as long as there's a teacher or something to make sure they don't do anything other than looking.
What does that have to do with what I said? Oh, that's right; nothing, because being made uncomfortable isn't the issue in this instance. What part of that escaped you just now?
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Old 25th July 2019, 09:29 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Oh, please. You responded with your opinion. And you implied that it was a liberal progressive thing. Now you're trying to walk it back.
I'm not walking anything back, I stand by my statement as I made it.

Quote:
Prove it.
How? All I can offer you is my own observations as well theoretical considerations implying it, basically the same considerations that imply that liberals will patronize minorities, something which has been studied and found true. I could give you the theoretical considerations, basically the way liberals want to take on the conclusions of the left but fail to go all the way to a structurally analytic view on society, leaving them with nothing but petit-bourgeois moralism, which in turn leads them to such things as patronizing minorities or being especially prone to failing to respond to the factuality of claims being made but rather to the moral-social standing of the person making them.

Quote:
You must be joking.
Not at all. Feel free to inform me of the danger of having a pedophile taking a look at the girls showering.

Quote:
What does that have to do with what I said? Oh, that's right; nothing, because being made uncomfortable isn't the issue in this instance. What part of that escaped you just now?
See previous paragraph.
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Old 25th July 2019, 09:33 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I'm not walking anything back, I stand by my statement as I made it.
Right, so it IS a liberal progressive thing, then.

Quote:
How?
Not my problem.

Quote:
Not at all.
I don't believe you.
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Old 25th July 2019, 09:35 AM   #133
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I think we're quite clear now.

Boy feels uncomfortable being with other boys - poor brave stunning marginalised oppressed child, of course you must do whatever you want.

Girls feel uncomfortable with a boy in their changing room and lavatories - bigoted transphobic bitches how dare you.
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Old 25th July 2019, 09:39 AM   #134
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Right, so it IS a liberal progressive thing, then.
Not uniquely so, just more pronounced with them.

Quote:
Not my problem.
Nor mine.

Quote:
I don't believe you.
Still waiting for you to tell me the danger that would be the basis for not allowing pedophiles to watch in, rather than the girls feeling uncomfortable with such. Heck, schools could sell tickets for pedophiles to watch in on the group showers, raise some money. Who cares if it makes the children uncomfortable, as long as there's no danger there's no basis for not doing such, right?
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Old 25th July 2019, 09:40 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think we're quite clear now.

Boy feels uncomfortable being with other boys - poor brave stunning marginalised oppressed child, of course you must do whatever you want.

Girls feel uncomfortable with a boy in their changing room and lavatories - bigoted transphobic bitches how dare you.
You keep framing this as though only trans girls exist.

Trans boys exist as well. And I don't think I'd be making too big a leap to say that at least the majority of people you're arguing with have the same opinion about trans children of either stripe using the facilities.
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Old 25th July 2019, 09:42 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think we're quite clear now.

Boy feels uncomfortable being with other boys - poor brave stunning marginalised oppressed child, of course you must do whatever you want.

Girls feel uncomfortable with a boy in their changing room and lavatories - bigoted transphobic bitches how dare you.
Judging by your language choices you really, really hate trans people. Can you really not see that it's your over-the-top mouth-frothing hatred that is engendering such resistance? If you took a page from history and disguised your prejudice in scientific terms like the eugenicists of old you might appear rational. Or not, that tampon thing was so outlandish I don't think you can recover from it.
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Old 25th July 2019, 09:51 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
At my high-school, we have always had co-ed bathrooms only, students as well as staff. Nobody I've heard of ever found it to be a problem. And the stalls all have little plastic bags where women can discard of their used tampons or sanitary napkins. I think it's the same at all high schools, except maybe the old high schools where they used to have urinals for males.

But now you're telling me that all these years, the people who clean the bathrooms have been sitting on a goldmine, selling used tampons online!?
In my limited experience with European bathrooms, there is a huge difference between them and American bathrooms. The Euro bathrooms that I've been in, whether unisex or for men only, the stall doors were almost like regular room doors. They fit well at least on both sides of the door, and often were even fit to the floor and ceiling. In contrast, the stalls in American bathrooms are horribly exposing. They aren't doors, but merely slabs of plastic with 1 or more inches of gap on the left and right side, as well as being at least a foot shy of the floor and well short of the ceiling.

A person walking by a closed stall in the sort of Euro bathrooms I've been in would not accidentally see anything, and likely wouldn't be able to see anything even if they tried. In America, we have to work to avoid seeing anything while walking past a closed stall.

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Old 25th July 2019, 09:54 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think we're quite clear now.

Boy feels uncomfortable being with other boys - poor brave stunning marginalised oppressed child, of course you must do whatever you want.

Girls feel uncomfortable with a boy in their changing room and lavatories - bigoted transphobic bitches how dare you.
No, that's not clear at all. It's a strawman.
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Old 25th July 2019, 09:57 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Not uniquely so, just more pronounced with them.
Prove it. Your personal observations are not convincing.

Quote:
Nor mine.
Seems like making "direct, accurate" statements isn't actually important to you.

Quote:
Still waiting for you to tell me the danger that would be the basis for not allowing pedophiles to watch in, rather than the girls feeling uncomfortable with such.
Your logic, I suppose, is that pedophiles are not likely to assault little girls (or boys) due to their predisposition? Statistically, you might be right (maybe), but it doesn't change the perception of society at large, which is the real reason why we typically don't let them near children.

Pretty amazing that I have to explain this to (presumably) a grown adult.
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Old 25th July 2019, 10:00 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Prove it. Your personal observations are not convincing.
They are to me.

Quote:
Your logic, I suppose, is that pedophiles are not likely to assault little girls (or boys) due to their predisposition?
No, my logic is that it can be supervised by a teacher or something to ensure that there is no danger to the children involved. As such, the only thing stopping it would be that it makes the children uncomfortable and, by your argument, that shouldn't count as a reason not to do it. So why not do it? I'm sure it'll raise the schools some much-needed cash.
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Old 25th July 2019, 10:14 AM   #141
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Girls don't want boys in their changing rooms. Boys don't want girls in their changing rooms either. That managed to be uncontroversial for a really long time.

When there's someone who wants something different it doesn't seem to me that you solve the problem by telling anyone involved to just stop wanting what they want.
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Old 25th July 2019, 10:20 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Because, as liberal progressives, they're not responding to the factuality of the claims but to the standing of the person making the claims. I'm sure you can get some liberals, those who suffer most from this, to have trouble with the claim that the Earth is round merely by basing that claim on one of Hitler's speeches on the V2 which implies said claim.
But the facts of the claims are verified by the local Iowa TV station. They had the same information that the OP link had, complete with a taped interview where you can see the exact words from the OP link. So, those facts are independently verified from a credible source. And yet, somehow, the source that one particular individual used when reporting those facts is deemed significant. It isn't.


On the fallacy bingo card, that's poisoning the well. It's "You shouldn't believe them because they are bad.", except that their goodness or badness is independent of what they are reporting. They are reporting verifiable, and indeed verified, facts.


I understand that the original source is suspicious because of its ideologically oriented source, but the facts that were used by the source were subsequently verified, so the facts are not suspicious. Why then, is the specific source located by a specific individual deemed significant?
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Old 25th July 2019, 10:20 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Girls don't want boys in their changing rooms. Boys don't want girls in their changing rooms either. That managed to be uncontroversial for a really long time.

When there's someone who wants something different it doesn't seem to me that you solve the problem by telling anyone involved to just stop wanting what they want.

The question that has not been answered is, does the boy simply want to stop using the boys' facilities, or does he actively want to use the girls' facilities? I think the answer to that would tell us a great deal.
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Old 25th July 2019, 10:21 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
They are to me.
That's trivially true but I'm sure you understand the need for objective demonstrations in questions of fact.

Quote:
No, my logic is that it can be supervised by a teacher or something to ensure that there is no danger to the children involved. As such, the only thing stopping it would be that it makes the children uncomfortable and, by your argument, that shouldn't count as a reason not to do it. So why not do it?
No, that's nonsense. That you can find another solution doesn't change the reasoning behind the disallowing of said pedophiles near children. Your "as such" not only doesn't follow, but ignores a host of other possibilities.
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Old 25th July 2019, 10:22 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
On the fallacy bingo card, that's poisoning the well. It's "You shouldn't believe them because they are bad.", except that their goodness or badness is independent of what they are reporting. They are reporting verifiable, and indeed verified, facts.

I think it's actually argumentum ad hominen. Playing the man and not the ball.
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Old 25th July 2019, 10:25 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
......you really, really hate trans people.
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Old 25th July 2019, 10:30 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think it's actually argumentum ad hominen. Playing the man and not the ball.
Does that include calling men entitled and saying that trans people are on an anti-woman crusade?
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Old 25th July 2019, 10:39 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think we're quite clear now.

Boy feels uncomfortable being with other boys - poor brave stunning marginalised oppressed child, of course you must do whatever you want.

Girls feel uncomfortable with a boy in their changing room and lavatories - bigoted transphobic bitches how dare you.
The only thing that is clear is that you have some strange persecution complex and constantly twist what everyone is saying into strawmen consistent with that. All the time you are crying about how people are saying that women and girls should be ignored and dismissed whilst men and boys always should get what they want.

Seriously, it's ridiculous.
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Old 25th July 2019, 10:43 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
But the facts of the claims are verified by the local Iowa TV station. They had the same information that the OP link had, complete with a taped interview where you can see the exact words from the OP link. So, those facts are independently verified from a credible source. And yet, somehow, the source that one particular individual used when reporting those facts is deemed significant. It isn't.


On the fallacy bingo card, that's poisoning the well. It's "You shouldn't believe them because they are bad.", except that their goodness or badness is independent of what they are reporting. They are reporting verifiable, and indeed verified, facts.


I understand that the original source is suspicious because of its ideologically oriented source, but the facts that were used by the source were subsequently verified, so the facts are not suspicious. Why then, is the specific source located by a specific individual deemed significant?
It is significant if you're not approaching the subject from the perspective of factual analysis but from the perspective of moral virtuousness. And just to be clear here, I agree with what you say, I wasn't defending the significance being attached to the source but merely explaining it.
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Old 25th July 2019, 10:49 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
It is significant if you're not approaching the subject from the perspective of factual analysis but from the perspective of moral virtuousness.
Speaking of factual analysis, I'm still waiting on your demonstration of your claim. Since it's largely off-topic, can I expect you to create a new thread on that issue?
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Old 25th July 2019, 10:49 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
You keep framing this as though only trans girls exist.

Trans boys exist as well. And I don't think I'd be making too big a leap to say that at least the majority of people you're arguing with have the same opinion about trans children of either stripe using the facilities.
The thing is that Rolfe sees this situation as inherently being a form oppression by men of women. Men are robbing women of their rights and destinies by "forcing" them to tolerate the presence, if not simply the existence, of trans women.

Trans men do not fit into this narrative and thus are completely ignored.
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Old 25th July 2019, 10:50 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
It is significant if you're not approaching the subject from the perspective of factual analysis but from the perspective of moral virtuousness. And just to be clear here, I agree with what you say, I wasn't defending the significance being attached to the source but merely explaining it.
Got it. Makes sense.
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Old 25th July 2019, 10:52 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's trivially true but I'm sure you understand the need for objective demonstrations in questions of fact.
There are many things which we hold true based on personal analysis and observation for which we can not provide a succinct objective demonstration, yet for which it is still rational for us to hold it to be true. I'm clearly not going to convince you of this claim yet that's not going to stop me from holding it to be true.

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No, that's nonsense. That you can find another solution doesn't change the reasoning behind the disallowing of said pedophiles near children. Your "as such" not only doesn't follow, but ignores a host of other possibilities.
We can assume for the sake of argument that no danger is presented to the kids by allowing said pedophiles to watch in on their group showers, such as for example by ensuring appropriate supervision or something like having a window behind which they have to watch. The point, of course, is to show that the claim that we'd never allow the discomfort felt by the kids to decide banning anyone from their changing rooms is untenable.
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Old 25th July 2019, 11:00 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Speaking of factual analysis, I'm still waiting on your demonstration of your claim. Since it's largely off-topic, can I expect you to create a new thread on that issue?
No, as this would take way too much effort. I'd be willing to enter a wager with you where I'd bet that, should such a study be performed, it would find that liberals are much more prone to this than Marxists.
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Old 25th July 2019, 11:00 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
There are many things which we hold true based on personal analysis and observation for which we can not provide a succinct objective demonstration, yet for which it is still rational for us to hold it to be true.
Er, no. It's not rational if you can't even produce evidence that's outside of your mind.

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I'm clearly not going to convince you of this claim yet that's not going to stop me from holding it to be true.
You'd convince me with some actual facts, actually.

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We can assume for the sake of argument that no danger is presented to the kids by allowing said pedophiles to watch in on their group showers, such as for example by ensuring appropriate supervision or something like having a window behind which they have to watch.
I'm talking about reality, not a hypothetical.

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The point, of course, is to show that the claim that we'd never allow the discomfort felt by the kids to decide banning anyone from their changing rooms is untenable.
And the point, as I said numerous times by now, is false. It has NOTHING TO DO with the discomfort of the children. What part of this causes you issues with comprehension?
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Old 25th July 2019, 11:02 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
No, as this would take way too much effort.
Your claim is hereby rejected.

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I'd be willing to enter a wager with you where I'd bet that, should such a study be performed, it would find that liberals are much more prone to this than Marxists.
Marxists? Shouldn't we compare them to conservatives instead?
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Old 25th July 2019, 11:03 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
The thing is that Rolfe sees this situation as inherently being a form oppression by men of women. Men are robbing women of their rights and destinies by "forcing" them to tolerate the presence, if not simply the existence, of trans women.
Well, yes, although nothing that Rolfe said could in any way be interpreted as being related to the existence of transwomen.Also, I'm not sure how "destinies" work into this, but I can tolerate a bit of hyperbolic rhetoric. No big deal. The rest of it, though, is quite accurate. That is exactly what is happening.

So, what's your point?

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Old 25th July 2019, 11:11 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Er, no. It's not rational if you can't even produce evidence that's outside of your mind.
Ok then, start off with the collected works of Marx and Engels, and continue with the collected works of Gramsci. Let me know when you're finished, that should get you started on a good basis for analysis of the ideological structure and reproduction of capitalist relations, specifically the role of moralizing within the petit-bourgeoisie.

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And the point, as I said numerous times by now, is false. It has NOTHING TO DO with the discomfort of the children. What part of this causes you issues with comprehension?
Then why aren't schools taking advantage of this revenue opportunity?
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"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
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Old 25th July 2019, 11:13 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Your claim is hereby rejected.
That's nice, I don't care.

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Marxists? Shouldn't we compare them to conservatives instead?
No, conservatives would, by and large, share the same issue - though probably somewhat less so than liberals.
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"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
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Old 25th July 2019, 11:16 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Ok then, start off with the collected works of Marx and Engels, and continue with the collected works of Gramsci. Let me know when you're finished, that should get you started on a good basis for analysis of the ideological structure and reproduction of capitalist relations, specifically the role of moralizing within the petit-bourgeoisie.
What in the blue **** does this have to do with whether objective evidence is required to demonstrate one's claims? And why would I want to read communist propaganda in relation to our discussion?

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Then why aren't schools taking advantage of this revenue opportunity?
What are you talking about?

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I don't care.
I know, I've told you already that you don't.

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No, conservatives would, by and large, share the same issue - though probably somewhat less so than liberals.
[citation needed]
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