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Old 26th July 2019, 06:02 AM   #1
uke2se
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A$AP Rocky and the Swedish justice system

I haven't seen a thread about it here, but it's big news in Sweden and I have heard various people on US talk shows talk about it, so I'd say it's worth a thread.

A$AP Rocky was arrested (gripen) by police after a concert in Sweden, accused of assault during an altercation earlier in the day. He was then detained by police (anhållen) awaiting a court hearing, where he was detained and remanded to jail (häktad) until trial. He's been there since the beginning of July, about three and a half weeks, and the court has set a date for his trial next week.

The issue is special in part due to who the accused person is, and in part because the US President has attempted to get Swedish politicians to meddle in the independent justice system to secure A$AP Rocky's release. Needless to say, this has not been successful.

A brief overview of the Swedish judicial system:

A person accused of a crime can be arrested (gripen) by police and held for up to a maximum of 12(6+6) hours. Then a prosecutor can detain (anhålla) the accused for up to 72 hours. During this time, the accused is held in police custody.

After 72 hours, in order to keep the accused locked up, a court must order the person remanded to jail (häktad), a decision that must be reviewed during a new hearing every two weeks until the prosecutor presents a completed investigation and a formal charge. There are some requisites that allows the court to keep the accused remanded to jail. These include risk of residivism, risk of interfering with the investigation in a few ways, and risk of flight. In the case of A$AP Rocky, in part due to the fact that the rapper was booked for a tour and was due to leave Stockholm very soon, it was the third requisite that went into effect.

Now, there are clauses ensuring that a person cannot be remanded in jail for a length of time that would impose unproportional damage on the accused. However, a 4 week period from alleged crime to trial is a very quick process, so such a clause cannot come into effect here.

The maximum sentence for the crime A$AP Rocky is accused of is 2 years in prison. Scuttlebutt is that the prosecutor has very good evidence, and personally I think a guilty verdict is likely. That said, I very much doubt a maximum sentence, as that would not be praxis in a case such as this. I expect some form of probation combined with a fine and probably damages to be payed to the victim. Possibly, there could be a brief prison-sentence, with time served taken into account.

I'd like to know how people are talking about this in the US. Do you think Swedish authorities should bend to pressure and just let the guy go?
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Last edited by uke2se; 26th July 2019 at 06:20 AM.
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Old 26th July 2019, 06:47 AM   #2
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I see Trump trying to make this an issue, maybe to distract from other news, maybe as a way to score political points. I don't really see this as being something that interests the general public that much here in the US. No one is going to get ginned up about some American punk facing a fairly light sentence for assaulting someone while overseas. The low stakes of this "fight" is probably what is so attractive to Trump. He can rage and tweet to his heart's delight, and it doesn't really matter that much what the outcome is.

Of course, the Swedes should not allow for the US to interfere in their justice system. Holding him without bail is appropriate as he is a high flight risk.
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Old 26th July 2019, 06:55 AM   #3
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Here at the local IKEA there was what looked like a massive protest but it turned out to be a summer savings extravaganza on patio furniture. Folding chairs, tables, plant stands, and much, much more!
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Old 26th July 2019, 06:56 AM   #4
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I was a bit disappointed to hear Trevor Noah say that Swedish authorities should just take the guy's passport and let him go and that this made Sweden look bad.

Swedish law does not allow for the confiscation of someone's passport in cases like this.
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Old 26th July 2019, 07:02 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I was a bit disappointed to hear Trevor Noah say that Swedish authorities should just take the guy's passport and let him go and that this made Sweden look bad.

Swedish law does not allow for the confiscation of someone's passport in cases like this.
It is difficult for me to be too animated about the "injustice" of him being held until trial, especially given that the trial is coming quickly.

It is the inherent nature of short term non-residents to be a flight risk. They never intended to stay and having pending criminal charges only incentives their departure all the more.

I generally espouse the position that tourists have a duty to understand and abide by the laws of their host nations. He chose to enter Sweden, so he chose to be under the power of their local laws and customs. Any inconvenience caused by his law-breaking is purely of his making.
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Old 26th July 2019, 07:45 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I was a bit disappointed to hear Trevor Noah say that Swedish authorities should just take the guy's passport and let him go and that this made Sweden look bad.

Swedish law does not allow for the confiscation of someone's passport in cases like this.
I was wondering about that. In the UK we would probably have made him surrender his passport and let him out on bail. Well, we would before Julian Assange. It would have been interesting to see him make a dash for the US Embassy.

The thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth is this pressure from the likes of Kanye West, Kim Kardassian and Trump to treat this man specially just because he is well known. Why should he be able to avoid justice just because he can fill an arena?
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Old 26th July 2019, 08:05 AM   #7
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I look forward to Trump declaring the next time a visiting non-American is arrested in the States, that they should be treated in line with the rules in their country of origin....
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Old 26th July 2019, 08:07 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I generally espouse the position that tourists have a duty to understand and abide by the laws of their host nations. He chose to enter Sweden, so he chose to be under the power of their local laws and customs. Any inconvenience caused by his law-breaking is purely of his making.
And it's not like he's been accused of something that isn't a crime in his own country.
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Old 26th July 2019, 08:12 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
And it's not like he's been accused of something that isn't a crime in his own country.
He's arguably getting much better treatment than he would in the US. Our justice system is quite cruel compared to most of Europe.
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Old 26th July 2019, 08:15 AM   #10
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Looking at the rather disjointed account on Wikipedia (too many hands working at once), there seems to be a huge cultural disconnect on the part of the US ambassador, Trump, and others appealing to Swedish politicians to intercede, which is something they can't actually do.
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Old 26th July 2019, 09:57 AM   #11
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I have the impression that those who object to his treatment in Sweden do so, not because he is being treated unfairly, but that he is being treated fairly. He does not seem to have been handled with the deference to which they feel his wealth and fame entitle him.
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Old 26th July 2019, 10:35 AM   #12
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Can I just say that I have no idea who the hell A$AP Rocky is, and that I intend to keep it that way?
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Old 26th July 2019, 10:57 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Can I just say that I have no idea who the hell A$AP Rocky is, and that I intend to keep it that way?
How is that pseudonym even pronounced? "ASAP" or "As Dollar As Possible"? I can see stretching $ to replace S in words, but not in initialisms.
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Old 26th July 2019, 11:10 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
How is that pseudonym even pronounced?
I think the Monty Python Belgians sketch might have the right idea on this one: don't pronounce it at all.
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Old 26th July 2019, 11:14 AM   #15
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The only story here is about Trump's inappropriate and undemocratic attempt to interfere in Sweden's justice system. Had Trump respected the rule of law, this would be a nonevent.
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Old 26th July 2019, 11:17 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
How is that pseudonym even pronounced? "ASAP" or "As Dollar As Possible"? I can see stretching $ to replace S in words, but not in initialisms.
Sweden should release Rocky ASAP!!


ETA: For those of you culturally challenged. https://www.vulture.com/2019/07/asap...explained.html

Quote:
...It claims that Rocky has been subjected to “solitary confinement, restriction of amenities for the most basic of human functions, access to palatable and life sustaining food as well as unsanitary conditions.”


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Old 26th July 2019, 11:30 AM   #17
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I think I'd have to have a VERY high bar for the US government intervening when a US citizen is arrested in another country.

Maybe if the law in question or the penalty or the process were absurd from a US perspective, like a life sentence for Jay walking. Or someone held for years with no trial. Then it may be reasonable for the government to ask for some consideration.

As far as I'm aware, assault is a crime in both countries. Sweden's sentencing is not in excess of the US for similar crimes. The trial is being conducted in a timely manner, with holding prior to the trial decided on a similar basis to the US custom.

There may be differences in how self defense is invoked. While I'm no Swedish legal expert, a quick google search suggests that they still do accept self defense as an argument.

Certainly A$AP Rocky is not the first American for three years to be arrested in a foreign country. And I would imagine that many of those other Americans were subject to legal systems more unlike the US and more arguably unacceptable than this case. So choosing to intervene in this case does not seem to be based on a policy of justice or American interests.

Clearly, Trump would like to be able to say he's not racist because of all he did for this black guy. He'd also like to say that he gets things done and makes other countries' legal system jump for him.

I think it's unlikely he'll get any special consideration from Sweden. I see a couple possible outcomes.

1) A$AP Rocky is aquitted on self defense grounds. Trump and his supporters will claim Trump had something to do with it. They will not have.

2) A%AP Rocky will be convicted, but the sentence will be something minor like time served, a fine, whatever. Trump and his supporters will claim Trump had something to do with it. They will not have.

3) A&AP Rocky will be convicted and serve some amount of jail time in Sweden. Trump will paint Sweden as a **** hole. His supporters will tween angrily at the country. They'll call Sweden racist and burn swedish meatballs in protest. That will last a day or two and they'll be moved on to the next thing Trump tells them to hate.
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Old 26th July 2019, 11:36 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Sweden should release Rocky ASAP!!


ETA: For those of you culturally challenged. https://www.vulture.com/2019/07/asap...explained.html




A Swedish häkte (basically a pre-trial detention center) is a pretty spartan place. It's possible that the prosecutor has asked for and been granted the ability to restrict the suspects' rights to communication, which means no tv, no radio, no news papers and no internet, and also no communication with anyone but law enforcement and lawyers. The reason for such restrictions might be to prevent further incidents like the videos that Rocky posted in an effort to sway public opinion. I do not know if such restrictions apply or not.

It's not unsanitary in this type of place. It's not nice, and I'm sure it's worse than what the suspect is used to, but they do clean the rooms. The food is also not bad. I'm sure he'll get used to Swedish cuisine sooner or later.
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Old 26th July 2019, 11:42 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
...It's not unsanitary in this type of place. It's not nice, and I'm sure it's worse than what the suspect is used to, but they do clean the rooms. The food is also not bad. I'm sure he'll get used to Swedish cuisine sooner or later.
I have it on good authority that Swedish food is AOkay!


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Old 26th July 2019, 12:00 PM   #20
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It's delicious!

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Old 26th July 2019, 12:02 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I was a bit disappointed to hear Trevor Noah say that Swedish authorities should just take the guy's passport and let him go and that this made Sweden look bad.

Swedish law does not allow for the confiscation of someone's passport in cases like this.
This has certainly become a race issue with many huge outlets like TMZ stating outright that A$AP is innocent and is only being treated that way because he is black. They are not implying racism - they are outright stating racism. Lot's of major black celebrities have jumped on the racist bandwagon as well. Doesn't surprise me that Trevor Noah has also jumped into that same knee-jerk bandwagon.
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Old 26th July 2019, 12:03 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It's delicious!

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I was a little surprised the first video wasn't this.
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Old 26th July 2019, 12:12 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
This has certainly become a race issue with many huge outlets like TMZ stating outright that A$AP is innocent and is only being treated that way because he is black. They are not implying racism - they are outright stating racism. Lot's of major black celebrities have jumped on the racist bandwagon as well. Doesn't surprise me that Trevor Noah has also jumped into that same knee-jerk bandwagon.
Figured as much. It's a missed call in this case. In Sweden, while we do have issues with racism, I don't believe it's systemic. It's also generally directed at people like the victim in this case, a Muslim immigrant I believe (based on name and appearance - not definitive), and not necessarily at black people, simply because there aren't that many of them around. There's certainly no issue with racism towards African Americans in Sweden, again because we don't have a population of African Americans.
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Old 26th July 2019, 12:29 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I haven't seen a thread about it here, but it's big news in Sweden and I have heard various people on US talk shows talk about it, so I'd say it's worth a thread.

A$AP Rocky was arrested (gripen) by police after a concert in Sweden, accused of assault during an altercation earlier in the day. He was then detained by police (anhållen) awaiting a court hearing, where he was detained and remanded to jail (häktad) until trial. He's been there since the beginning of July, about three and a half weeks, and the court has set a date for his trial next week.

The issue is special in part due to who the accused person is, and in part because the US President has attempted to get Swedish politicians to meddle in the independent justice system to secure A$AP Rocky's release. Needless to say, this has not been successful.

A brief overview of the Swedish judicial system:

A person accused of a crime can be arrested (gripen) by police and held for up to a maximum of 12(6+6) hours. Then a prosecutor can detain (anhålla) the accused for up to 72 hours. During this time, the accused is held in police custody.

After 72 hours, in order to keep the accused locked up, a court must order the person remanded to jail (häktad), a decision that must be reviewed during a new hearing every two weeks until the prosecutor presents a completed investigation and a formal charge. There are some requisites that allows the court to keep the accused remanded to jail. These include risk of residivism, risk of interfering with the investigation in a few ways, and risk of flight. In the case of A$AP Rocky, in part due to the fact that the rapper was booked for a tour and was due to leave Stockholm very soon, it was the third requisite that went into effect.

Now, there are clauses ensuring that a person cannot be remanded in jail for a length of time that would impose unproportional damage on the accused. However, a 4 week period from alleged crime to trial is a very quick process, so such a clause cannot come into effect here.

The maximum sentence for the crime A$AP Rocky is accused of is 2 years in prison. Scuttlebutt is that the prosecutor has very good evidence, and personally I think a guilty verdict is likely. That said, I very much doubt a maximum sentence, as that would not be praxis in a case such as this. I expect some form of probation combined with a fine and probably damages to be payed to the victim. Possibly, there could be a brief prison-sentence, with time served taken into account.

I'd like to know how people are talking about this in the US. Do you think Swedish authorities should bend to pressure and just let the guy go?
In the US, I would expect him to be released on bail. OTOH, in the US, time from arrest to trial on such an offense can often be several months (depends on how backed up a particular local jurisdiction is). In the US, if bail is denied or the detained person can't make bail, time served in jail awaiting trial is usually credited against the sentence, if convicted. I have no idea if that's the case in Sweden. On balance, I really care very little about it, but I would say it's something Trump should keep his nose out of.
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Old 26th July 2019, 12:41 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
ETA: For those of you culturally challenged. https://www.vulture.com/2019/07/asap...explained.html

Quote:
...It claims that Rocky has been subjected to “solitary confinement, restriction of amenities for the most basic of human functions, access to palatable and life sustaining food as well as unsanitary conditions.”
Doesn't sound like the cushy Swedish jails we hear about. Apparently the substandard food he complained about includes, "turkey, veal, and rhubarb pie with custard." The horror!
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Old 26th July 2019, 12:47 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Sweden should release Rocky ASAP!!


ETA: For those of you culturally challenged. https://www.vulture.com/2019/07/asap...explained.html




It's funny. After they made these accusation in American media his first Swedish lawyer repudiated the allegations and said he had only relatively minor complaints specific to his time in a arrest cell. A$AP Rocky didn't want to look like he was complaining, he said. Then he was sacked and replaced.
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Old 26th July 2019, 12:53 PM   #27
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Its been reported in various questionable medias about the inhumane conditions in the swedish pre-trial detention center. But a couple of weeks ago the pre-trial detention center weekly menu where presented. Just for fun I will try to translate it for you:

Monday:
Goulash Soup, bread and cheese
Hot chickpea soup served with rice

Tuesday:
Sausage with potatoes and horseradish sauce
Italian chicken with pasta

Wednesday:
Meatballs with mashed potatoes and beetsalad
Chicken nuggets with sweet chili sauce and vegetable rice

Thursday:
Vegetable soup
Cheesecake with jam
"Hash" with fried eggs and beetroot

Friday:
Greece beef croquette (horrible translation) with roasted potatoes and tzatziki

Saturday:
Chicken with mustard and horseradish served with rice
Meat pie with sallad

Sunday:
Beef soup with potatoes
Crepe filled with mushroom and calesallad

The swedish restaurant Tjoget decided to follow this menu that week with the slogan "Eat as ASAP Rocky".
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Old 26th July 2019, 01:00 PM   #28
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Sweden keeps black people in concentration camps. Sweden is the worst country in the world.
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Old 26th July 2019, 01:03 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Lennart Hyland View Post
Its been reported in various questionable medias about the inhumane conditions in the swedish pre-trial detention center. But a couple of weeks ago the pre-trial detention center weekly menu where presented. Just for fun I will try to translate it for you:
The written description really doesn't tell you much about how good the food is. If it's prepared like crap, it will taste like crap, regardless of what it's called. I have no idea of whether or not it's bad, it might be perfectly delightful, but you really can't tell by the menu.

Way back in my Boy Scout days, I went on a week-long backpacking trip. We ate lots of prepackaged freeze-dried camping meals. Most of them were serviceable but not particularly good. But one of them, Chicken Teriyaki, was universally reviled. A group of teenage boys who had been engaged in strenuous physical activity all day are going to eat almost any food you put in front of them. But I don't think anyone in our group finished their Chicken Teriyaki. There was nothing in the description that would have led you to believe it was going to be worse than any of the other freeze dried meals, but it was.
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Old 26th July 2019, 01:19 PM   #30
GlennB
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Sweden keeps black people in concentration camps. Sweden is the worst country in the world.
Self parody, Baylor? Your stock is rising in my opinion

added: Seems Sweden has basically told Trump to **** off. Good for them.
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Old 26th July 2019, 01:25 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Way back in my Boy Scout days, I went on a week-long backpacking trip. We ate lots of prepackaged freeze-dried camping meals. Most of them were serviceable but not particularly good.
In my scouting days we cooked from scratch, and I'd be surprised if it wasn't the same now. I guess this is another thing where the American version is very different from the original.
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Old 26th July 2019, 01:26 PM   #32
Lennart Hyland
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The written description really doesn't tell you much about how good the food is. If it's prepared like crap, it will taste like crap, regardless of what it's called. I have no idea of whether or not it's bad, it might be perfectly delightful, but you really can't tell by the menu.
Yes you're totally correct. I was suppose to include that in my reply but somehow forgot about it.

Yet I thought it would be a fun addition to this thread anyway.
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Old 26th July 2019, 01:26 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The written description really doesn't tell you much about how good the food is. If it's prepared like crap, it will taste like crap, regardless of what it's called. I have no idea of whether or not it's bad, it might be perfectly delightful, but you really can't tell by the menu.

Way back in my Boy Scout days, I went on a week-long backpacking trip. We ate lots of prepackaged freeze-dried camping meals. Most of them were serviceable but not particularly good. But one of them, Chicken Teriyaki, was universally reviled. A group of teenage boys who had been engaged in strenuous physical activity all day are going to eat almost any food you put in front of them. But I don't think anyone in our group finished their Chicken Teriyaki. There was nothing in the description that would have led you to believe it was going to be worse than any of the other freeze dried meals, but it was.
That's only because you didn't finish your meal with delicious Rhubarb pie and custard! Nobody goes ******* for Rhubarb like the Scandinavians!

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Old 26th July 2019, 01:27 PM   #34
Baylor
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post

added: Seems Sweden has basically told Trump to **** off. Good for them.
If you think Trump cares about getting this person out of a Swedish prison then you're more naive than I thought.
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Old 26th July 2019, 01:32 PM   #35
GlennB
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
If you think Trump cares about getting this person out of a Swedish prison then you're more naive than I thought.
That Trump might give damn never crossed my mind for a nanosecond.

Your point?
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Old 26th July 2019, 01:39 PM   #36
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You're naive
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Old 26th July 2019, 01:41 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I was a bit disappointed to hear Trevor Noah say that Swedish authorities should just take the guy's passport and let him go and that this made Sweden look bad.

Swedish law does not allow for the confiscation of someone's passport in cases like this.
Actually it does. The law technically allows for people to be given a travel ban, potentially with additional conditions which would include having their passport confiscated. They might also be restricted to a certain area and be obligated to report at the police at certain times. In practice this is very underutilized, which is a shame.

Ultimately it's true that Swedish pre-trial detention is flawed, and it has been subject to criticism from several domestic and international civil rights organizations because it can be overly long, especially if it includes restrictions on the detainee, which can effectively amount to solitary confinement. In this case though, as he wasn't given any restrictions, that isn't really relevant.

In response to this critique there was a public investigation by the state that was meant to come up with alternatives too pre-trial detention, as well as reduce the length of such detention and reduce the potential negative effects it might have. In practice, since there's really no public pressure to do anything about this, no significant legal changes have been made since this investigation.

I seriously think that people often fail to realize how bad the system is because of how good Swedish prisons are (although they are starting to get crowded), which could easily make such criticism seem unwarranted, even-though they fail to realize that the prisons are not the same as pre-trial detention facilities. Bizarrely people convicted of crimes and sentenced to prison are often allowed far more freedom than those merely accused or suspect of a crime even though they are not guilty of any crime according to the law and might even be innocent.
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Old 26th July 2019, 01:44 PM   #38
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A new video has surfaced!


YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 26th July 2019, 02:20 PM   #39
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This loser (according to Wiki) has a criminal record for drug dealing, fighting and smacking a woman. $weden, he's all yours.

Other than the Sweden thing I've never heard of him.
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Old 26th July 2019, 03:51 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
In the US, I would expect him to be released on bail. OTOH, in the US, time from arrest to trial on such an offense can often be several months (depends on how backed up a particular local jurisdiction is). In the US, if bail is denied or the detained person can't make bail, time served in jail awaiting trial is usually credited against the sentence, if convicted. I have no idea if that's the case in Sweden. On balance, I really care very little about it, but I would say it's something Trump should keep his nose out of.
Normally, he would be on bail but because it is deemed he was due to leave the country* - as he was only visiting - he was remanded.


*The Swedes are still smarting over Julian Assange.
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