ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 29th July 2019, 08:36 PM   #81
Ryokan
Insert something funny here
 
Ryokan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Norway
Posts: 10,048
Yes. The only place I have heard of where you can pay your way out of jail is the USA.

Here, if you are a flight risk or if they suspect you will tamper with evidence or committ more crimes, you will remain in custody, as long as the police can convince a judge of this. If there is no such risk, or they can't convince a judge, you are free to go until the trial.

Now, there has been legit criticism of some people remaining in custody for longer than they should, but I doubt many people would prefer to switch to an American style system. People being able to pay their way out just doesn't seem fair.
Ryokan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2019, 10:59 PM   #82
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 62,987
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I bet there is nothing Italian about the chicken or Greek about the beef.

He should be grateful it's not a Finnish jail, it would be maksalaatikko, silli and makkara every other day, with dill on everything.
Liver pudding and herring aren't all that appealing to me, but I have to say - Finnish sauna sausage sounds great!
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

We can't go back. We don't understand everything yet.
"Everything" is a little ambitious. We barely understand anything.
Yeah. But that's what the first part of understanding everything looks like.
- xkcd Time (frame 1071-3)
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2019, 01:15 AM   #83
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 26,509
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Liver pudding and herring aren't all that appealing to me, but I have to say - Finnish sauna sausage sounds great!
Finnish sauna in jail may be a substantially different experience
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2019, 01:21 AM   #84
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 26,509
Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Yes. The only place I have heard of where you can pay your way out of jail is the USA.

Here, if you are a flight risk or if they suspect you will tamper with evidence or committ more crimes, you will remain in custody, as long as the police can convince a judge of this. If there is no such risk, or they can't convince a judge, you are free to go until the trial.

Now, there has been legit criticism of some people remaining in custody for longer than they should, but I doubt many people would prefer to switch to an American style system. People being able to pay their way out just doesn't seem fair.
As I understand it, in the US bail can be denied if the judge deems that the accused is a flight risk or still presents a risk to the public. It's just that the wealthy can afford the kinds of lawyers who are better able to persuade the judge that they should let you out on bail - with or without extra restrictions such as house arrest, prohibition to go certain places or electronic tagging.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2019, 01:43 AM   #85
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,122
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
As I understand it, in the US bail can be denied if the judge deems that the accused is a flight risk or still presents a risk to the public. It's just that the wealthy can afford the kinds of lawyers who are better able to persuade the judge that they should let you out on bail - with or without extra restrictions such as house arrest, prohibition to go certain places or electronic tagging.
That's another difference between the systems. In Sweden, an accused person can demand any lawyer that they want. If that lawyer is available, he or she will accept, and get payed according to a standardized model. If the accused is deemed to be unable to afford the cost of the defence, the government will pay for it.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2019, 03:58 AM   #86
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 16,164
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Finnish sauna in jail may be a substantially different experience
Poor ASAP will have to put up with the Swedish version: the electric sauna.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2019, 10:33 AM   #87
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 5,425
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Can you cite the Swedish bail laws, please?

TYVM in advance.
https://www.regeringen.se/rattsliga-.../01/ds-199865/

It's under chapter 24 - Detention and Arrest:

Any person suspected on probable cause of an offence punishable
by imprisonment for a term of one year or more may be placed in
detention if, in view of the nature of the offence, the suspect's
circumstances, or any other factor, there is a reasonable risk that
the person will:
1. flee or otherwise evade legal proceedings or punishment;
2. impede the inquiry into the matter at issue by removing evidence
or in another way; or
3. continue his criminal activity.

If a penalty less severe than imprisonment for two years is not
prescribed for the offence, the suspect shall be detained unless it is
clear that detention is unwarranted.

Detention may only occur if the reason for detention outweighs the
intrusion or other detriment to the suspect or some other opposing
interest.

If it can be assumed that the suspect will only be sentenced to a fine
he must not be detained.


I also saw that the BBC said he had pleaded innocent. Under Swedish law there is no "pleading" as in British or American law, the defendant is asked to give their own opinion on the allegations against them but there is no particular legal significance to this. From the same law code as above, although i changed the translation a little:

At the main hearing the prosecutor shall state the charges. The
defendant shall be requested to state briefly his position and the
basis for it. The Prosecutor will then develop his case. The plaintiff and the accused shall, to the extent necessary, be given the opportunity to develop their case.

Hereafter the aggrieved person and the defendant shall be examined
and other evidence be presented. The examination of the aggrieved
person and the defendant shall occur prior to the taking evidence of
witnesses concerning the circumstance that the examination
concerns.

When a main hearing is held despite the absence of the aggrieved
person or the defendant, the court shall see to it that the absentee's
statement shall be presented from the documents to the extent
needed. (SFS 1987:747)
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 09:30 AM   #88
CORed
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 8,917
Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
It's not the food - it's the never ending ABBA music being played in his cell!
Now that would definitely qualify as torture.
CORed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 10:54 AM   #89
Ryokan
Insert something funny here
 
Ryokan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Norway
Posts: 10,048
The trial is over. Although still waiting for the verdict, Rocky has been released from custody and is allowed to leave the country if he so wishes.

If he does, good riddance. Trump's involvement has made the whole incident into a circus that we don't need in these parts of the world.
Ryokan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 11:23 AM   #90
jeremyp
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 777
Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
The trial is over. Although still waiting for the verdict, Rocky has been released from custody and is allowed to leave the country if he so wishes.
Is that an indication that the judge is likely to find him not guilty or will sentence him to "time served"? If not, and Rocky does a runner, the extradition proceedings are going to be interesting.

Another interesting point: there were two other defendants along with Rocky but Trump seems to have forgotten about them.
jeremyp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 11:47 AM   #91
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 21,570
Trump Tweets

A$AP Rocky released from prison and on his way home to the United States from Sweden. It was a Rocky Week, get home ASAP A$AP!
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 01:52 PM   #92
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,122
Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Is that an indication that the judge is likely to find him not guilty or will sentence him to "time served"? If not, and Rocky does a runner, the extradition proceedings are going to be interesting.
Yes, it's an indication of just that. I still would bet on a guilty verdict, but I find it most likely that it will be some form of probation and fine.

Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Another interesting point: there were two other defendants along with Rocky but Trump seems to have forgotten about them.
Yep. Surprised?
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 02:00 PM   #93
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 20,164
Until I read the article I didn't realize a verdict has not been reached yet. I think it will be very interesting if he is found to be guilty and is expected to return to Sweden to do more time.
__________________
Science is self-correcting.
Woo is self-contradicting.
alfaniner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 03:09 PM   #94
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 5,425
Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Is that an indication that the judge is likely to find him not guilty or will sentence him to "time served"?
Yes. It means that he will almost certainly be acquitted or sentenced to a fine. Since he was deemed a flight risk earlier, if he was facing a prison sentence they would probably not release him, even-though people are generally released from custody before they are sentenced to a short prison.

Non detained people facing a short prison sentence are just given a date at which they are required to appear at a prison, although they can show up at any prison at any time if they want.

Quote:
If not, and Rocky does a runner, the extradition proceedings are going to be interesting.
In Sweden prosecutors are allowed to appeal sentences if they disagree with the judgement, and appeals to the first court of appeal are almost always allowed, which means that he might be asked to appear in court in Sweden again.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 05:19 PM   #95
EHocking
Philosopher
 
EHocking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,948
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Until I read the article I didn't realize a verdict has not been reached yet. I think it will be very interesting if he is found to be guilty and is expected to return to Sweden to do more time.
Is there an Ecuadorian Embassy in NYC?
__________________
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
"It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite
You can't make up anything anymore. The world itself is a satire. All you're doing is recording it. Art Buchwald
EHocking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 06:42 PM   #96
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,303
Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Is that an indication that the judge is likely to find him not guilty or will sentence him to "time served"? If not, and Rocky does a runner, the extradition proceedings are going to be interesting.

Another interesting point: there were two other defendants along with Rocky but Trump seems to have forgotten about them.
How rich are the other two?
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2019, 01:03 AM   #97
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 18,514
Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Is that an indication that the judge is likely to find him not guilty or will sentence him to "time served"? If not, and Rocky does a runner, the extradition proceedings are going to be interesting.

Another interesting point: there were two other defendants along with Rocky but Trump seems to have forgotten about them.
When has Trump ever cared about the help?
__________________
A MAGA hat = a Swastika arm band.
Craig4 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2019, 02:53 AM   #98
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 16,164
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

A$AP Rocky released from prison and on his way home to the United States from Sweden. It was a Rocky Week, get home ASAP A$AP!
Oh dear. That'll reinforce Trump's delusion that he is the world's policeman.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2019, 02:08 PM   #99
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 21,570
Trump Retweeted

Dr.Darrell Scott
@PastorDScott
Contrary to what the Left's "Know Nothing Blacks" are saying (Tamar Braxton in particular) The President was involved in A$ap Rocky's situation almost from Day One! I know because @realkareemdream and myself personally involved him by connecting the Whitehouse to Rocky's manager!
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2019, 11:14 PM   #100
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 8,898
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Retweeted

Dr.Darrell Scott
@PastorDScott
Contrary to what the Left's "Know Nothing Blacks" are saying (Tamar Braxton in particular) The President was involved in A$ap Rocky's situation almost from Day One! I know because @realkareemdream and myself personally involved him by connecting the Whitehouse to Rocky's manager!
I don't know what he is referring to.

I DO know that he send the US Top Hostage Negotiator to Sweden, for crying out loud, when there are plenty of Americans held kidnapped or as hostages all around the world. I wonder how the families of them feel, knowing that Trump prioritizes one rich dude who broke the law over their loved ones.

https://www.vox.com/2019/7/31/207484...ge-envoy-trump
__________________
Careful! That tree's bark is worse than its bite.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2019, 03:49 AM   #101
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 17,957
Apparrently this guy, whom I had never heard of, is diplomatically important. The US are prepared to threaten a whole nation over this thing.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/02/a...ntl/index.html
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2019, 11:36 AM   #102
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,122
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I don't know what he is referring to.

I DO know that he send the US Top Hostage Negotiator to Sweden, for crying out loud, when there are plenty of Americans held kidnapped or as hostages all around the world. I wonder how the families of them feel, knowing that Trump prioritizes one rich dude who broke the law over their loved ones.

https://www.vox.com/2019/7/31/207484...ge-envoy-trump
Well, the hostage negotiator at least tried to get Swedish authorities to allow Rocky to spend his remandment in a luxury hotel. Needless to say, that request went unheeded. Seems Trump and his cronies have a hard time understanding that it doesn't matter how much money you have. In Sweden, everyone are equal before the law.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2019, 02:32 PM   #103
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,303
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Well, the hostage negotiator at least tried to get Swedish authorities to allow Rocky to spend his remandment in a luxury hotel. Needless to say, that request went unheeded. Seems Trump and his cronies have a hard time understanding that it doesn't matter how much money you have. In Sweden, everyone are equal before the law.
I understand the USA has a document that says this very thing. I also understand that in the USA this document is frequently ignored.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2019, 03:43 PM   #104
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,900
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I understand the USA has a document that says this very thing. I also understand that in the USA this document is frequently ignored.
I understand you are hallucinating this imaginary document.
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2019, 04:28 PM   #105
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,303
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I understand you are hallucinating this imaginary document.
I stand corrected. I am now advised that the USA has no document stating that everyone is equal before the law. That explains perfectly why rich people and politicians can avoid prosecution for crimes that others cannot. It also explains why republicans can so much enjoy exploiting that legal inequality.

Perhaps the USA would be a more civilized place if they had a requirement for legal equality similar to Sweden’s.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2019, 05:44 PM   #106
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,900
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I stand corrected. I am now advised that the USA has no document stating that everyone is equal before the law.
At least I was able to snap one person out of his hallucinations.
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2019, 06:31 PM   #107
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,303
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
At least I was able to snap one person out of his hallucinations.
Yes, I am afraid that I hallucinated that the USA was somewhat more civilized than it is in reality
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2019, 06:56 PM   #108
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 18,169
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Yes, I am afraid that I hallucinated that the USA was somewhat more civilized than it is in reality
You don't understand. It's true that in the US everyone is equal, it's just that some are more equal than others.

OTOH, I find it surprising (not) that a right winger would be so gleeful of such a communist feature
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2019, 07:04 PM   #109
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,303
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
You don't understand. It's true that in the US everyone is equal, it's just that some are more equal than others.

OTOH, I find it surprising (not) that a right winger would be so gleeful of such a communist feature
Consistency has never been a strong suit with that one.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2019, 08:21 PM   #110
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 24,282
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Yes, I am afraid that I hallucinated that the USA was somewhat more civilized than it is in reality
The Declaration of Independence said all men are created equal, but alas there seems no guarantee that they'll stay that way.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2019, 09:30 PM   #111
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,303
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
The Declaration of Independence said all men are created equal, but alas there seems no guarantee that they'll stay that way.
That is my apparent hallucination. I assumed it stayed that way. But I was quickly corrected by a true patriot and constitutional expert. Upon further reflection, the history of the USA since the day that document was written provides precious little evidence of equality among people. Seems that Trump erroneously assumed that other countries have different levels of priviledge just like the USA.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2019, 11:50 PM   #112
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,900
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
That is my apparent hallucination. I assumed it stayed that way. But I was quickly corrected by a true patriot and constitutional expert. Upon further reflection, the history of the USA since the day that document was written provides precious little evidence of equality among people. Seems that Trump erroneously assumed that other countries have different levels of priviledge just like the USA.
You are hallucinating the word "law" when no such word appears. For people not hallucinating they understand the passage was a refutation of divine rights of the king. You also are hallucinating that the entire world consists of men when in fact women do exist. You also think the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution is the same document. I can only help you so much. Best of luck to you.
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 07:47 AM   #113
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,303
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
You are hallucinating the word "law" when no such word appears. For people not hallucinating they understand the passage was a refutation of divine rights of the king. You also are hallucinating that the entire world consists of men when in fact women do exist. You also think the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution is the same document. I can only help you so much. Best of luck to you.
Look, you have made it quite clear that there is no equality before the law in the USA. I was surprised and I was mistaken ( and obviously hallucinating). I accept that unreservedly. These details that you are harping on really have no relevance.

For a country that once prided itself on equality and freedom for all I find this a sad state of affairs. That a significant percentage of your population is proud of this and do not want it to changes just pathetic. The divine right of presidents is obviously in full vigor in your country. Best of luck to you in your increasingly fascist country.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 11:40 AM   #114
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 24,282
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
At least I was able to snap one person out of his hallucinations.
The degree of the hallucination might depend on how you define the terms "document" and "equality" but there are some civil rights bills which some might consider documents, which are actually laws. The Constitution and the Declaration of Independence are not the only documents around.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 04:03 PM   #115
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,900
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
For a country that once prided itself on equality and freedom for all I find this a sad state of affairs.
I really have no idea what you're talking about. You appear to be some kind of history revisionist. Perhaps a holocaust denialist forum might suit you better as this is a skeptics forum where facts matter.
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 04:28 PM   #116
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,900
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
The degree of the hallucination might depend on how you define the terms "document" and "equality" but there are some civil rights bills which some might consider documents, which are actually laws. The Constitution and the Declaration of Independence are not the only documents around.
So now we have to guess what the hell Steve is talking about, when he himself doesn't even know.
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 04:33 PM   #117
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,303
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I really have no idea what you're talking about. You appear to be some kind of history revisionist. Perhaps a holocaust denialist forum might suit you better as this is a skeptics forum where facts matter.
I have finally realised where I made my mistake. I have been working on the premise that you are a resident and perhaps even a citizen of the USA. I now realize that I have been discussing equality with a citizen of Saudi Arabia where inequality among citizens has always been the status quo. You just don't know any different. I am so sorry for you.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 04:37 PM   #118
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,900
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I have finally realised where I made my mistake. I have been working on the premise that you are a resident and perhaps even a citizen of the USA. I now realize that I have been discussing equality with a citizen of Saudi Arabia where inequality among citizens has always been the status quo. You just don't know any different. I am so sorry for you.
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 05:05 PM   #119
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,303
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Oops. You really shouldn't disparage yourself like this. I am sure that given enough exposure to the thoughts and ideas of those that live in countries where freedom and equality are enshrined in their laws you will come to realize that it really is a fine way to live. There is hope for you even now. May I suggest a vacation in Sweden for some exposure to equality.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 06:02 PM   #120
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,900
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Oops. You really shouldn't disparage yourself like this. I am sure that given enough exposure to the thoughts and ideas of those that live in countries where freedom and equality are enshrined in their laws you will come to realize that it really is a fine way to live. There is hope for you even now. May I suggest a vacation in Sweden for some exposure to equality.
Why would you say this? This isn't witty at all.
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:27 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.