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Old 28th July 2019, 11:14 PM   #1
dann
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Childless [strike]Europeans[/strike] Americans

Since at least one active member of the ISF is preoccupied with childlessness, I am surprised that we don't have a thread that deals specifically with this, and it occurred to me again when I was watching a recent episode of The Daily Show with Trevor Noah:
A Toddler Rides an Airport Conveyor Belt and America’s Fertility Rate Plummets:

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I AGREE


For some reason it didn't get as much attention when it was reported on NBC in May:

Quote:
The numbers are part of a decadeslong trend toward fewer and fewer babies being born each year — which means we’re getting further away from the possibility of having enough children to replace ourselves, according to the report from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Birth rate in U.S. falls to lowest level in 32 years, CDC says (NBC News, May 15, 2019)

The Daily Show refers to this article from CNN:

Quote:
When examined by race, the data showed that fertility rates declined 2% for white and black women, and 3% for Hispanic women, between 2017 and 2018.
The data also showed that the teen birth rate, for ages 15 to 19, fell 7% from 2017 to 2018. When examined by race, the data showed that teen births declined by 4% for black teenagers, and 8% for white and Hispanic teens.
US fertility rate falls to 'all-time low,' CDC says (CNN, July 24, 2019)
Births and Natality (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)

Quote:
On average, women had 1.2 biological children and men had fathered 0.9 children.
Fertility of Men and Women Aged 15–44 in the United States (National Health Statistics Reports, July 11, 2018)

This is what Wikipedia has to say about people who are childless/childfree:

Quote:
Overall, researchers have observed childless couples to be more educated, and it is perhaps because of this that they are more likely to be employed in professional and management occupations, more likely for both spouses to earn relatively high incomes, and to live in urban areas. They are also less likely to be religious, subscribe to traditional gender roles, or subscribe to conventional roles.
Being a childfree, American adult was considered unusual in the 1950s. However, the proportion of childless adults in the population has increased significantly since then. The proportion of childlessness among women aged 40-44 was 10% in 1976, reached a high of 20% in 2005, then declined to 15% in 2014. In Europe, childlessness among women aged 40-44 is most common in Austria, Spain and the United Kingdom (in 2010-2011). Childlessness is least common across Eastern European countries, although one child families are very common there.
From 2007 to 2011 the fertility rate in the U.S. declined 9%, the Pew Research Center reporting in 2010 that the birth rate was the lowest in U.S. history and that childfreeness rose across all racial and ethnic groups to about 1 in 5 versus 1 in 10 in the 1970s. The CDC released statistics in the first quarter of 2016 confirming that the U.S. fertility rate had fallen to its lowest point since record keeping started in 1909: 59.8 births per 1,000 women, half its high of 122.9 in 1957. Even taking the falling fertility rate into account, the U.S. Census Bureau still projected that the U.S. population would increase from 319 million (2014) to 400 million by 2051.
The National Center of Health Statistics confirms that the percentage of American women of childbearing age who define themselves as childfree (or voluntarily childless) rose sharply in the 1990s—from 2.4 percent in 1982 to 4.3 percent in 1990 to 6.6 percent in 1995.
Voluntary childlessness: Statistics and research (Wikipedia)

Could this be the reason why some states in the USA seem to be hellbent on putting a stop to abortions and also don't seem to be very interested in promoting education?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 28th July 2019 at 11:16 PM.
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Old 29th July 2019, 01:17 AM   #2
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I think it's a good thing and I would encourage anyone who prefers to remain childless to do just that.

Also, I'll just leave this funny tweet here, although I can't be totally sure that it isn't the work of a troll:

https://twitter.com/JenKatWrites/sta...18383749931013
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Old 29th July 2019, 03:50 AM   #3
dann
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We should add it to the list of what's required for Making America Great Again:

1) Abortion of any kind is illegal.
2) Education is discouraged.
3) Grownups unaccompanied by children are denied access to Disney World.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th July 2019, 04:01 AM   #4
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Wouldn't it be funny if it turned out that Americans have a greater rate of childlessness than Europeans? Baylor would not be amused, although I'm sure he would be able to somehow spin it (fake news, fake media, alternative facts - the usual crap)
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Old 29th July 2019, 04:16 AM   #5
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traditionally, there were sites were you could rent a child (with a sufficient degree of handicap), to take to Disney with you so you could jump the cues.
Capitalism at its best!
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Old 29th July 2019, 04:40 AM   #6
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Less kids. Less emissions, saves planet for weirdos who think the world is going to end in 15 years from climate change.
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Old 29th July 2019, 04:56 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Wouldn't it be funny if it turned out that Americans have a greater rate of childlessness than Europeans? Baylor would not be amused, although I'm sure he would be able to somehow spin it (fake news, fake media, alternative facts - the usual crap)
Well, the US birth rate is lower than Sweden and France, I think.
And it's in the same ball-park as much of the rest of Europe.
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Old 29th July 2019, 05:03 AM   #8
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Spoiled? Greedy? Don't want the cost of child rearing to put a crimp in their style- new car, bigger house then any two people need, all the toy. vacations, expensive evenings? Which attitude is why they went to college, up the ladder too? The "ME" generations? Don't expect it to get better with all the helicopter moms spoiling their only child.
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Old 29th July 2019, 05:05 AM   #9
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There are more effective ways to affect the course of the world than through procreation.
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Old 29th July 2019, 05:17 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Spoiled? Greedy? Don't want the cost of child rearing to put a crimp in their style- new car, bigger house then any two people need, all the toy. vacations, expensive evenings? Which attitude is why they went to college, up the ladder too? The "ME" generations? Don't expect it to get better with all the helicopter moms spoiling their only child.
Is this a joke?

Young people are damned if they do, damned if they don't. Seems that the older generations are bound to criticize the spending habits of young people no matter what they do. If they spend too much on dinner, they're air-headed spendthrifts not planning for tomorrow. If they make the informed decision that they cannot afford children as early and often, they are self-centered losers.

Young people today are spending their early careers working to pay off tremendous student loan debt in an economy that has not had meaningful wage growth in decades. Dual income families are now the default and most cannot tolerate the loss of income that childbearing necessitates. Choosing to not have children, or to delay having children, or to have less children are all reasonable responses to factors outside their control.

Raging about "the Me generation" is probably the most idiotic response to the natural result of decades of failed public policy.
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Old 29th July 2019, 05:18 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Spoiled? Greedy? Don't want the cost of child rearing to put a crimp in their style- new car, bigger house then any two people need, all the toy. vacations, expensive evenings? Which attitude is why they went to college, up the ladder too? The "ME" generations? Don't expect it to get better with all the helicopter moms spoiling their only child.
So the ME generation helicopter parenting the children they aren't having because they are greedy?

Yeah this is a pathetic joke of a post.
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Old 29th July 2019, 05:37 AM   #12
dann
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Wouldn't it be funny if it turned out that Americans have a greater rate of childlessness than Europeans? Baylor would not be amused, although I'm sure he would be able to somehow spin it (fake news, fake media, alternative facts - the usual crap)

Who is Baylor?! Is it somebody we ought to know?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th July 2019, 07:49 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Spoiled? Greedy? Don't want the cost of child rearing to put a crimp in their style- new car, bigger house then any two people need, all the toy. vacations, expensive evenings? Which attitude is why they went to college, up the ladder too? The "ME" generations? Don't expect it to get better with all the helicopter moms spoiling their only child.
this


idiocracy was a documentary
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Old 29th July 2019, 07:55 AM   #14
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I don't have kids because I don't want them. What shall I do with all this disposable income, then? Guess I'll just help pay for my nieces' college education. How selfishly wicked of me!
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Old 29th July 2019, 07:59 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
this


idiocracy was a documentary
You're totally right. The stupid people are outbreeding the smart ones.

Republicans Have More Kids Than Democrats. A Lot More Kids.

https://www.fatherly.com/health-scie...more-children/
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:02 AM   #16
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I really don't get people who say it is selfish to not have kids. Where did this idea come from? Is absolutely nothing not anyone else's business?

It's hard to imagine how I could be affecting other people less than choosing to remain single and childless, but apparently that's a problem. I seriously hate the world. I ******* hate it.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:36 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Spoiled? Greedy? Don't want the cost of child rearing to put a crimp in their style- new car, bigger house then any two people need, all the toy. vacations, expensive evenings? Which attitude is why they went to college, up the ladder too? The "ME" generations? Don't expect it to get better with all the helicopter moms spoiling their only child.
Or you know... can't responsibly afford to have kids and provide healthcare and post-secondary education plus save enough for retirement. I'm 100% in that boat. If people don't want or can't afford to have children why should they exactly? Yeah its going to cause trouble with a shrinking population in the short term, but in the longer term the human race will be better with a smaller population. If we get under a billion it might be time to start worrying.

ETA: god knows how much money I'd have saved right now if it wasn't for the "great recession". I saved and saved and saved in my 20's to see nearly half of it wiped out in 2008-09 (401k, Roth IRA, and a brokerage acct). Then I became insanely risk-averse so I've only averaged a 2 or 3% annual return. If it wasn't for that I'd probably have had kids. So yeah, I blame idiotic policies.

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Old 29th July 2019, 08:42 AM   #18
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Let's not forget, you know, concern for the future state of the world. I don't think things are headed in a very good direction. Why would I want to bring children into that? I don't know how to navigate a kid properly through such a confusing mess. I can barely handle it myself.

It's genuinely disgusting to me that this is viewed as anyone's business other than mine.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:48 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Let's not forget, you know, concern for the future state of the world. I don't think things are headed in a very good direction. Why would I want to bring children into that? I don't know how to navigate a kid properly through such a confusing mess. I can barely handle it myself.

It's genuinely disgusting to me that this is viewed as anyone's business other than mine.
We're already in a place where a fetus's rights outweigh it mother's, it's only a matter of time before childless women are sued on behalf of hypothetical not-yet-conceived children they should have had. I don't expect anybody will be interested in suing the non-fathers, of course.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:58 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Let's not forget, you know, concern for the future state of the world. I don't think things are headed in a very good direction. Why would I want to bring children into that? I don't know how to navigate a kid properly through such a confusing mess. I can barely handle it myself.

It's genuinely disgusting to me that this is viewed as anyone's business other than mine.
I could not possibly agree with a statement more.

The fact anyone thinks they should be able to tell others how to live, when to have kids or even IF they should have kids is beyond me. If someone tried to tell me or my kids any different I'd tell them to **** right off.

There is no reason to have kids if you don't want them.

People also can't look down on teenage parents and then bitch that kids 15-19 aren't having kids. They shouldn't be having kids. There's no reason for them to be having kids. Life expectancy is significantly longer and if they don't want to have kids until they're in their mid-30's, then they shouldn't. If by that time they feel like they don't want kids then they shouldn't have them.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:00 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
We're already in a place where a fetus's rights outweigh it mother's, it's only a matter of time before childless women are sued on behalf of hypothetical not-yet-conceived children they should have had. I don't expect anybody will be interested in suing the non-fathers, of course.
It feels like a version of the Handsmaid tale is coming to fruition.

"Shut your mouth, baby factory and do what you're good for!"
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:02 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It feels like a version of the Handsmaid tale is coming to fruition.

"Shut your mouth, baby factory and do what you're good for!"
Ah excuse you that's WHITE baby factory.

It is the duty, nay the sacred calling of every white woman to keep the darkies from outbreeding us.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:04 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It feels like a version of the Handsmaid tale is coming to fruition.

"Shut your mouth, baby factory and do what you're good for!"
Oh, no, not factories: factories get paid to produce things.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:09 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Ah excuse you that's WHITE baby factory.

It is the duty, nay the sacred calling of every white woman to keep the darkies from outbreeding us.
That is absolutely true. As we've learned recently from some of our helpful, local conservatives. Diversity is in fact, NOT good for a society.

Keep it pasty to keep it proper.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Oh, no, not factories: factories get paid to produce things.
That is funny. Sad, true, but funny nonetheless.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:10 AM   #25
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It's weird being told you're selfish by people who look at the world and decide it just doesn't have enough them in it.

Anyway, selfishness isn't really the issue. The reality is that most parents are just bad shoppers. It's extravagantly expensive to raise children, but cheap to pay someone else to do it, if you're not picky about how or where they do it. In the future we'll probably outsource the job--upload a genetic profile, select a set of values you'd like instilled, and get the occasional piece of ****** artwork to hang on your fridge. Even if you end up on the hook for private college, hey, think of all the restaurant meltdowns you'll avoid.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:13 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Wouldn't it be funny if it turned out that Americans have a greater rate of childlessness than Europeans?

They don't - compared with most European countries:

Quote:
Country - Total fertility rate - Rank
Niger 6.95 children per woman 1
(...)
United States Virgin Islands 2.046 children per woman 118
France 1.852 children per woman 135
Sweden 1.85 children per woman 136
Ireland 1.841 children per woman 138
Australia 1.832 children per woman 139
United States 1.776 children per woman 142
Iceland 1.77 children per woman 143
Denmark 1.762 children per woman 145
United Kingdom 1.75 children per woman 150
Latvia 1.717 children per woman 153
Belgium 1.715 children per woman 154
Norway 1.68 children per woman 157
Lithuania 1.67 children per woman 158
Netherlands 1.66 children per woman 159
Czech Republic 1.641 children per woman 161
Romania 1.62 children per woman 164
Albania 1.62 children per woman 162
Slovenia 1.6 children per woman 166
Estonia 1.588 children per woman 167
Germany 1.586 children per woman 168
Bulgaria 1.558 children per woman 169
Switzerland 1.535 children per woman 170
Finland 1.53 children per woman 172
Austria 1.529 children per woman 173
Canada 1.525 children per woman 174
Slovakia 1.502 children per woman 175
Macedonia 1.5 children per woman 176
Hungary 1.491 children per woman 177
Serbia 1.461 children per woman 178
Luxembourg 1.45 children per woman 179
Malta 1.45 children per woman 180
Croatia 1.446 children per woman 181
Poland 1.42 children per woman 184
Spain 1.33 children per woman 190
Italy 1.33 children per woman 189
Greece 1.302 children per woman 192
Portugal 1.288 children per woman 193
Bosnia And Herzegovina 1.27 children per woman 194
Moldova 1.255 children per woman 195
Puerto Rico 1.22 children per woman 196
(...)
South Korea 1.11 children per woman 200
Fertility Rate By Country 2019 (World Population Review)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:15 AM   #27
pgwenthold
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I really don't get people who say it is selfish to not have kids. Where did this idea come from? Is absolutely nothing not anyone else's business?

It's hard to imagine how I could be affecting other people less than choosing to remain single and childless, but apparently that's a problem. I seriously hate the world. I ******* hate it.
Let's make something very clear: we had kids completely and 100% for ourselves. Not for anyone else, or society, or any crap like that.

We had kids because WE wanted them.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:19 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Oh, no, not factories: factories get paid to produce things.
And of course are run by corporations that have rights and can't be forced to go against their beliefs.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:20 AM   #29
dann
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
We're already in a place where a fetus's rights outweigh it mother's, it's only a matter of time before childless women are sued on behalf of hypothetical not-yet-conceived children they should have had. I don't expect anybody will be interested in suing the non-fathers, of course.

We know that it was a sin when Onan "spilled his seed on the ground," so I guess we just have to be very careful with where we spill it. (Or is it one of those scriptures we're not supposed to take literally? I'm always confused by that!)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:22 AM   #30
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Let's make something very clear: we had kids completely and 100% for ourselves. Not for anyone else, or society, or any crap like that.

We had kids because WE wanted them.
But that is just crazy, no one wants kids, they just have them out of obligation or punishment for sinful ways. I mean the idea of liking kids? That is a total joke, as Trump well proved when joked that he liked kids when one was crying at a rally.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:23 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
We know that it was a sin when Onan "spilled his seed on the ground," so I guess we just have to be very careful with where we spill it. (Or is it one of those scriptures we're not supposed to take literally? I'm always confused by that!)
Just remember wear a condom don't pull out when you are screwing your brothers widow.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:24 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Let's make something very clear: we had kids completely and 100% for ourselves. Not for anyone else, or society, or any crap like that.

We had kids because WE wanted them.
So does that mean that YOU are the selfish one? I'm confused as to how these two posts fit together, but I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed either.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:24 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
They don't - compared with most European countries:
any data on how the various US minorities differ in fertility rates?
(if you have them handy).
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:44 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Who is Baylor?! Is it somebody we ought to know?
Just trust me on this one: savor the precious few and dwindling moments remaining between now and the point at which you will inevitably find out.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:47 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
We know that it was a sin when Onan "spilled his seed on the ground," so I guess we just have to be very careful with where we spill it. (Or is it one of those scriptures we're not supposed to take literally? I'm always confused by that!)
I believe the prevailing scholarly theory on that incident was that Onan's sin wasn't masturbation but the violation of the tribal custom of his people. He was culturally obligated to father a child on his brother's widow, and the child would be considered his brother's, continuing his brother's line and providing his sister-in-law with a child she'd otherwise not have. Apparently Onan was willing to bang her for his own pleasure but not to fulfill the cultural obligation, which was massively disrespectful to her (and his dead brother). The story got a bit flowery in translation and is thus frequently misunderstood to refer to masturbation when actually it was about pulling out before ejaculation. This has been Biblical Misconceptions with Father Monkey. Next week: Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:49 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I believe the prevailing scholarly theory on that incident was that Onan's sin wasn't masturbation but the violation of the tribal custom of his people. He was culturally obligated to father a child on his brother's widow, and the child would be considered his brother's, continuing his brother's line and providing his sister-in-law with a child she'd otherwise not have. Apparently Onan was willing to bang her for his own pleasure but not to fulfill the cultural obligation, which was massively disrespectful to her (and his dead brother). The story got a bit flowery in translation and is thus frequently misunderstood to refer to masturbation when actually it was about pulling out before ejaculation. This has been Biblical Misconceptions with Father Monkey. Next week: Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute.
Looks like I'm going to have some issues in the afterlife.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:55 AM   #37
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Providing his brother with an heir, no less. There's property rights in the mix too.

Like if Prince William had died before (or perhaps with his children) and Harry had to sleep with his wife to make a new heir (who is ahead of Harry in succession).
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:03 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Providing his brother with an heir, no less. There's property rights in the mix too.

Like if Prince William had died before (or perhaps with his children) and Harry had to sleep with his wife to make a new heir (who is ahead of Harry in succession).
According to the tabloids that wouldn't be anything new for either of them!
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:03 AM   #39
dann
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
any data on how the various US minorities differ in fertility rates?
(if you have them handy).

Yes, go back to the OP!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:09 AM   #40
dann
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
... it was about pulling out before ejaculation.

Great! I never did! And since I have no brothers, I also have no sisters-in-law. One more thing I will never have to worry about. And thanks for the Bible class!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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