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Old 29th July 2019, 10:14 AM   #41
Checkmite
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Regarding having children, or not: I cannot bring myself to care what someone else does in this regard. Have children. Don't have children. If you have them, I have the same expectations as society at large that you will meet the responsibilities you have freely selected yourself into by virtue of becoming a parent; but otherwise I really do not care one way or another.

What I genuinely can't understand, to save my life, is why so many people will formulate negative opinions of other people for deciding not to have children. It makes no logical OR emotional sense why someone would be upset over this particular decision by another, unrelated person.
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:19 AM   #42
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It's not a new idea: Cross of Honour of the German Mother (Wikipedia)
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:24 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
What I genuinely can't understand, to save my life, is why so many people will formulate negative opinions of other people for deciding not to have children. It makes no logical OR emotional sense why someone would be upset over this particular decision by another, unrelated person.
I have a gut feeling on this.

I have a distant cousin on my Facebook feed that I finally had to mute about a few weeks back.

For the the last... like 6 or so years she's been in fertility treatment and her Facebook posts were all "Can't wait to have kids, kids will complete me, you're not loved until you're loved by a child, etc, etc" so much puke and rainbows.

Well about a year back she finally convinced and gave birth to a set of perfectly healthy and adorable twin boys.

And like that, the switch got turned. After about... I don't know a week or two in the afterglow it became a constant stream of "OH LORDY BEING A PARENT IS SO HARD, LOOKIT AT THIS FUNNY MEME ABOUT HOW HARD BEING A PARENT IS, YOU'LL NEVER KNOW TIRED UNTIL YOU'RE PARENT TIRED." it turned from "Children will complete me" to "MOMMY MARTYR MODE ACTIVATE" practically overnight.

This women spent years and a LOT of money so she could humblebrag about how hard her life was essentially.

People like that... I think they sort of have to see the childless as the enemy since so much of their self identity is wrapped up not in parenting or the children themselves in the literal sense but in the sacrifies and hardships.

If you've adopted that mentality you would almost have to see the childless as not pulling their weight.
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:10 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I really don't get people who say it is selfish to not have kids. Where did this idea come from? Is absolutely nothing not anyone else's business?

It's hard to imagine how I could be affecting other people less than choosing to remain single and childless, but apparently that's a problem. I seriously hate the world. I ******* hate it.

Of course it's not selfish if you want to end your lineage and leave the future to my children. It's just the opposite, in fact. My children are of course superior, so we thank you for letting them have a bigger piece of the pie.

But it's racially selfish if we white folks don't all gang up to outbreed the brown ones. I doubt Baylor and his ilk are wringing their hands worrying if the birth rate goes down in Mexico or Somalia or the ghettoes of Alabama. But childless white folks are traitors to the heroes manning the barricades against white genocide.
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:44 AM   #45
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Is it selfish if I feel there is insufficient time, rather than money? From the age of 19 through 42 (on retirement from the service) I worked sixty to eighty hours a week. Take out about fourteen hours for driving to and from, another ten for meals, two hours for laundry, two for vehicle maintenance, half an hour for hair cuts, seven hours for shower/shave and so forth, and a nominal fifty-six hours for sleeping, and you end up with a minus three and a half hours each week for family time. Doesn't really work.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:39 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I have a gut feeling on this.

I have a distant cousin on my Facebook feed that I finally had to mute about a few weeks back.

For the the last... like 6 or so years she's been in fertility treatment and her Facebook posts were all "Can't wait to have kids, kids will complete me, you're not loved until you're loved by a child, etc, etc" so much puke and rainbows.

Well about a year back she finally convinced and gave birth to a set of perfectly healthy and adorable twin boys.

And like that, the switch got turned. After about... I don't know a week or two in the afterglow it became a constant stream of "OH LORDY BEING A PARENT IS SO HARD, LOOKIT AT THIS FUNNY MEME ABOUT HOW HARD BEING A PARENT IS, YOU'LL NEVER KNOW TIRED UNTIL YOU'RE PARENT TIRED." it turned from "Children will complete me" to "MOMMY MARTYR MODE ACTIVATE" practically overnight.

This women spent years and a LOT of money so she could humblebrag about how hard her life was essentially.

People like that... I think they sort of have to see the childless as the enemy since so much of their self identity is wrapped up not in parenting or the children themselves in the literal sense but in the sacrifies and hardships.

If you've adopted that mentality you would almost have to see the childless as not pulling their weight.
Like Crossfit, being a Vegan, and not eating gluten.

I agree though. I'm 38 so the last 10 years of my life have been filled with friends and facebook kids of having kids. I've 3 kids in total, but I guess maybe mine weren't all that tough to manage.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:57 PM   #47
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I don't have any kids, nor do I want to in the future. It just isn't something that appeals to me. I am very selfish with my time. I like to do what I want to do when I have the time to do so. We have precious little time alive and the idea of spending 18-21 years on someone elses schedule scares the **** out of me. Also, do I need to mention the responsibility involved? The money? The Stress? Yikes!

I am a school teacher by trade, and that was always fun because I could help kids grow and learn, but then give them back at 3:30 every day!
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:58 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
They don't - compared with most European countries:
Your reply does not address what I said. You're talking about fertility rate, which is not the same thing as the rate of childlessness.. It is possible for a group with a higher fertility rate to also have a higher rate of childlessness.....and here's how

Group "A" consists of 100 adults and 150 children who are the offspring 75 of those adults. The other 25 adults are childless
Fertility rate = 1.5
Childless rate = 25%

Group "B" consists of 100 adults and 240 children who are the offspring 60 of those adults. The other 40 adults are childless
Fertility rate = 2.4
Childless rate = 40%
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Old 29th July 2019, 01:04 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
What I genuinely can't understand, to save my life, is why so many people will formulate negative opinions of other people for deciding not to have children. It makes no logical OR emotional sense why someone would be upset over this particular decision by another, unrelated person.
But they would be defying Sky Daddy's command to "go forth and multiply"!
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If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
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Old 29th July 2019, 01:05 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
But they would be defying Sky Daddy's command to "go forth and multiply"!
Ironically the "Quiverfull" nutjobs seems to be pretty insular.

"Oh but you simply have to have children!" seems to come the strongest from the people who have the vaguest reasons.
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Old 29th July 2019, 01:30 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I really don't get people who say it is selfish to not have kids. Where did this idea come from? Is absolutely nothing not anyone else's business?

It's hard to imagine how I could be affecting other people less than choosing to remain single and childless, but apparently that's a problem. I seriously hate the world. I ******* hate it.

If anything it's selfish to have them! Puts a burden on my income - how much of my taxes go to pay for things my non-existent kids will never use? Then the parents get tax breaks on top of it. *I* should get the tax breaks!

Then when the kids "grow up" we get to take care of them even more. Someone mentioned helicopter parents - ya their kids are already affecting us. They live in the streets because they have no clue as to what being responsible means.

They've never had a car, therefore no job, so they don't know the value of money and hard work.

Their parents did an obviously terrible job because what 23 year old would want to live with their parents unless their parents spoiled them rotten, or didn't teach them the skills necessary to survive?

Seriously, if your kids live at home still then you utterly failed as a parent. Your kids should want to get away from all the rules and chores and oversight that parents are supposed to inflict.

The search for independence starts with a bicycle, then a car, then moving out. But now kids don't ride bikes and they don't buy cars, therefore they learn zero responsibility for themselves. Buying insurance, gas, keeping it maintained, having a job to pay for it. They don't even mow the lawn anymore! No responsibility!

And now these loser good-for-nothing brats want more entitlements and feel the world owes them something. I wonder why?

Screw kids and screw parents. We have a bunch of adult losers standing around with cardboard signs, completely lost in the world, all thanks to politically correct numbskull parents who would rather be their child's best friend than to tell them "No" once in a while.

Rant over.
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Old 29th July 2019, 01:36 PM   #52
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In this particular thread, I'm starting to think that the posters who stated that view were simply trolling. A chance to bash millennials, more than anything.

If I did decide to have kids, the same crowd would be horrified. I literally can't win here.

I truly don't get it. We have plenty of people. There is no people shortage. My choosing to keep my loser self out of the people-making equation is the opposite of selfish, and it certainly isn't harming anyone. It's the way I can best mind my own business and keep out of a confusing world that scares me. And still, it's a problem.

I have to say (not to get too dramatic or existential), I'm not always thrilled that I was born. It's really not that great. Why aren't I allowed to decide that I'd rather not call up any more people? Oh, it must be because I want to eat out every night. Whatever - that is so ridiculous. I almost never eat out. I'm currently poor because I'm going to school. I'm doing that so I can support myself in the future and not be a drain on society, and STILL people complain. If I had a kid, I'd be called an irresponsible welfare queen (to be clear, I am NOT on welfare). What am I supposed to do?

I want someone to explain it to me.

I guess I just should have gotten married to some old rich man right out of high school and started making babies? Is that the best way to avoid the hate? I'm pretty sure I'd be called a useless golddigger for that.

I truly wish I wasn't part of this human mess.

Last edited by isissxn; 29th July 2019 at 01:39 PM.
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Old 29th July 2019, 01:38 PM   #53
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For the record, I sometimes indulge fantasies of adopting children when I'm older and more stable and established. I think I'd be happy if I made it to that point someday, and I KNOW that wouldn't be selfish.
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Old 29th July 2019, 01:41 PM   #54
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I have fantasies of adopting children when I am older, more financially stable, and science has perfected a means for me to extract their youth to reverse my own aging process.
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Old 29th July 2019, 01:44 PM   #55
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I'm not sure I'd ever get there. I know myself well enough to know I'm pretty irresponsible and not quite sane. I wouldn't want to inflict that on an innocent.

But if that ever weren't the case, and I could provide a loving, stable home for someone who is already stuck here, I might like to do that. Who knows?

I know I'm ranting, but I just don't get how it's anyone's business, and I got really steamed.


EDIT: This isn't the first time I've seen the "not having children is selfish, wanting to spend your own life doing your own thing is selfish" argument. I'm sure most of us have seen it before. It really stings, like REALLY, because it seems like there just isn't anything one can do to keep out the fray. Except "be a different person with a different life," I guess. That's what the real criticism sounds like to me. It's extremely cruel.

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Old 29th July 2019, 01:53 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
In this particular thread, I'm starting to think that the posters who stated that view were simply trolling. A chance to bash millennials, more than anything.
I'm not going to go back through the thread, but I doubt anyone here was seriously saying that childless people are selfish. It could be someone I have on ignore, either literally or I just skip their posts mentally, but that sentiment does seem prevalent elsewhere.

I have kids, but that was our choice. Only once has anyone asked if we would have more kids. My father-in-law asked if we were having more kids, and I told him no, that this was the number we wanted and that his daughter really suffered with the last pregnancy, so that sort of cemented the decision. He was visibly sad. He lamented that he would have had tons more kids if they could have afforded it. But they couldn't, not really. I still feel guilty sometimes, because he really likes the little kids and all of his grandkids are now in high school or older. But, he is pretty healthy, and great grandkids can't be too far off.

By the way, I don't think he ever would have had this conversation with his daughter. He wouldn't want to pressure her like that.
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Old 29th July 2019, 01:57 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I'm not going to go back through the thread, but I doubt anyone here was seriously saying that childless people are selfish. It could be someone I have on ignore, either literally or I just skip their posts mentally, but that sentiment does seem prevalent elsewhere.
The post that set me off into a ranting depressive tizzy was this:

Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Spoiled? Greedy? Don't want the cost of child rearing to put a crimp in their style- new car, bigger house then any two people need, all the toy. vacations, expensive evenings? Which attitude is why they went to college, up the ladder too? The "ME" generations? Don't expect it to get better with all the helicopter moms spoiling their only child.

Last edit: I'm also ill today, so my skin is tissue-thin. But I deeply resent the idea that it's selfish to keep out of the baby-making, and I always have. People trying to make me feel broken. Even my religious boomer parents aren't like this. They are pretty darn understanding about how I feel with regard to procreation. And my father, unbidden, once said that he's so worried about climate change, he isn't sure there will be a decent future for my generation's kids at all.

My parents almost didn't have children. They weren't sure they wanted to. They waited until pretty much the last minute, if you know what I mean.

I'm sure that having me as a kid has made them wish they'd stuck with their original idea.

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Old 29th July 2019, 02:14 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
The post that set me off into a ranting depressive tizzy was this:
Yeah, so, consider the source, consider the self conflicting statements within the post, and move on. Sorry, that's my best retort for stuff like that.


Quote:
Last edit: I'm also ill today, so my skin is tissue-thin.

Take care of yourself and give fewer ***** about what people think. It'll make life easier.
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Old 29th July 2019, 02:18 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
So does that mean that YOU are the selfish one? I'm confused as to how these two posts fit together, but I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed either.
No, in choosing to have kids solely to appease ourselves, we are being the selfless ones, as opposed to those selfish millennials, who don't have kids.

If you are confused, you aren't alone..
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Old 29th July 2019, 02:31 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I have a gut feeling on this.

I have a distant cousin on my Facebook feed that I finally had to mute about a few weeks back.

For the the last... like 6 or so years she's been in fertility treatment and her Facebook posts were all "Can't wait to have kids, kids will complete me, you're not loved until you're loved by a child, etc, etc" so much puke and rainbows.

Well about a year back she finally convinced and gave birth to a set of perfectly healthy and adorable twin boys.

And like that, the switch got turned. After about... I don't know a week or two in the afterglow it became a constant stream of "OH LORDY BEING A PARENT IS SO HARD, LOOKIT AT THIS FUNNY MEME ABOUT HOW HARD BEING A PARENT IS, YOU'LL NEVER KNOW TIRED UNTIL YOU'RE PARENT TIRED." it turned from "Children will complete me" to "MOMMY MARTYR MODE ACTIVATE" practically overnight.

This women spent years and a LOT of money so she could humblebrag about how hard her life was essentially.

People like that... I think they sort of have to see the childless as the enemy since so much of their self identity is wrapped up not in parenting or the children themselves in the literal sense but in the sacrifies and hardships.

If you've adopted that mentality you would almost have to see the childless as not pulling their weight.
At least you're not going down the "WHITE GENOCIDE" route like you did last time. To quote the great George W. Bush, that was some weird **** man.
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Old 29th July 2019, 02:32 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Wouldn't it be funny if it turned out that Americans have a greater rate of childlessness than Europeans? Baylor would not be amused, although I'm sure he would be able to somehow spin it (fake news, fake media, alternative facts - the usual crap)
The below replacement birth rate in the US is recent. Europe has had it for decades now. Australia hasn't had a replacement level birthrate since 1977!
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Old 29th July 2019, 02:39 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Could this be the reason why some states in the USA seem to be hellbent on putting a stop to abortions and also don't seem to be very interested in promoting education?
No
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Old 29th July 2019, 02:41 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Ah excuse you that's WHITE baby factory.

It is the duty, nay the sacred calling of every white woman to keep the darkies from outbreeding us.
Ah there it is.

To quote the Great George W. Bush once again, this is some weird **** man.
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Old 29th July 2019, 04:03 PM   #64
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
The below replacement birth rate in the US is recent. Europe has had it for decades now. Australia hasn't had a replacement level birthrate since 1977!
No it isn't.

Unless 1971 is 'recent'
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Old 29th July 2019, 04:16 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
No it isn't.

Unless 1971 is 'recent'
Easy to access information clearly states the 2007 US birth rate was above the replacement rate of 2.1 lives births per woman. EU member states have not been above 2.0 in several decades

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Old 29th July 2019, 04:53 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Easy to access information clearly states the 2007 US birth rate was above the replacement rate of 2.1 lives births per woman. EU member states have not been above 2.0 in several decades

Interesting, that chart shows a trend of the US rate plummeting, while the European rate remains steady.... how long before the lines cross; or have they already?
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Old 29th July 2019, 04:57 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
In this particular thread, I'm starting to think that the posters who stated that view were simply trolling. A chance to bash millennials, more than anything.

If I did decide to have kids, the same crowd would be horrified. I literally can't win here.

I truly don't get it. We have plenty of people. There is no people shortage. My choosing to keep my loser self out of the people-making equation is the opposite of selfish, and it certainly isn't harming anyone. It's the way I can best mind my own business and keep out of a confusing world that scares me. And still, it's a problem.

I have to say (not to get too dramatic or existential), I'm not always thrilled that I was born. It's really not that great. Why aren't I allowed to decide that I'd rather not call up any more people? Oh, it must be because I want to eat out every night. Whatever - that is so ridiculous. I almost never eat out. I'm currently poor because I'm going to school. I'm doing that so I can support myself in the future and not be a drain on society, and STILL people complain. If I had a kid, I'd be called an irresponsible welfare queen (to be clear, I am NOT on welfare). What am I supposed to do?

I want someone to explain it to me.

I guess I just should have gotten married to some old rich man right out of high school and started making babies? Is that the best way to avoid the hate? I'm pretty sure I'd be called a useless golddigger for that.

I truly wish I wasn't part of this human mess.
Well, I agree with you 100%. No one should feel like they should have to have children for anyone else's sake. And it's the opposite of selfish. Why should you care what anyone else thinks? You are right and I think you know that you're right, but just in case hearing it from someone else helps a little bit, just know that others agree with you.
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Old 29th July 2019, 05:10 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
At least you're not going down the "WHITE GENOCIDE" route like you did last time. To quote the great George W. Bush, that was some weird **** man.
Not to worry, I've got it.
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Old 29th July 2019, 05:13 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
In this particular thread, I'm starting to think that the posters who stated that view were simply trolling. A chance to bash millennials, more than anything.

If I did decide to have kids, the same crowd would be horrified. I literally can't win here.

I truly don't get it. We have plenty of people. There is no people shortage. My choosing to keep my loser self out of the people-making equation is the opposite of selfish, and it certainly isn't harming anyone. It's the way I can best mind my own business and keep out of a confusing world that scares me. And still, it's a problem.

I have to say (not to get too dramatic or existential), I'm not always thrilled that I was born. It's really not that great. Why aren't I allowed to decide that I'd rather not call up any more people? Oh, it must be because I want to eat out every night. Whatever - that is so ridiculous. I almost never eat out. I'm currently poor because I'm going to school. I'm doing that so I can support myself in the future and not be a drain on society, and STILL people complain. If I had a kid, I'd be called an irresponsible welfare queen (to be clear, I am NOT on welfare). What am I supposed to do?

I want someone to explain it to me.

I guess I just should have gotten married to some old rich man right out of high school and started making babies? Is that the best way to avoid the hate? I'm pretty sure I'd be called a useless golddigger for that.

I truly wish I wasn't part of this human mess.
There is no good explanation.
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Old 29th July 2019, 06:13 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
They've never had a car, therefore no job, so they don't know the value of money and hard work.
In reality, they have no car because unless they're relatively lucky, they were never able to find a job that paid enough to afford one, because entry-level and mid-level wages have not kept pace with the cost of living.
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Old 29th July 2019, 07:42 PM   #71
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Somebody explain this statistic from the OP to me:

Quote:
On average, women had 1.2 biological children and men had fathered 0.9 children.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:22 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
There is no good explanation.
Actually there are lots of good explanations, but no single good explanation. Attitudes to childbirth have culturally depended on a lot of factors, not the least of which is the fact that before quite recently it was common for children to die of disease or misadventure before reaching maturity. It was therefore seen as necessary to have many children, hoping that some survive to adulthood. There is also the Christian command to "go forth and multiply" which people have taken very seriously for a long time. There is the economic issue where an economy cannot grow while population growth is stagnant (this is why immigration is so important to America (and Australia) right now).

Lots of factors, all interacting in complex and confusing ways, leads to an attitude that people who do not have children are morally inferior to people who do. Fortunately, those attitudes are changing in most developed countries right now.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:22 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Somebody explain this statistic from the OP to me:
Quote:
On average, women had 1.2 biological children and men had fathered 0.9 children.
If you mean why aren't the two numbers equal, one reason is that this is only people age 40-44 in the survey. It took me a little while, but this is the original source:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr113.pdf

If older men are fathering a significant proportion of the children with younger women, then men under the age of 45 would have fewer children than women of the same age.

Other factors could include women who use donated sperm to conceive, and women for whom the father is out of the picture for some reason. Maybe she has a one-night stand and he just doesn't know.

Young, single women turning to sperm donors to conceive

Lesbian couples who want to conceive may go the anonymous sperm donor route too.

So some combination of older fathers, sperm banks, and one-night stands.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:35 PM   #74
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I cannot argue with this thesis: https://www.amazon.com/Better-Never-.../dp/0199549265
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:36 PM   #75
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Thank you puppycow for taking the time to look into that.

I was mainly trying to be funny, but I appreciate your effort and agree with your findings.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:28 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by rustypouch View Post
I can go along with that sentiment to a certain extent.

I do not think that the world my grandchildren's children and grandchildren will grow up in will be a very pleasant one, physically, socially or politically. I think they will curse our generations for the abysmal state in which we have left left the planet.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:39 PM   #77
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Without having children, how will random strangers come up to you to complain about how you are raising them from the 2 minutes they noticed a toddler having a temper tantrum in a store?

I wonder what other situations people feel the confidence and need to convey their opinion so strongly to strangers. Only one that pops up is ex smokers commenting on the danger when I'm smoking, but I love adding to the list.

[Edit to add] More related to the thread, I don't understand the urge to care about this stuff. I can see parents that want grandchildren asking but beyond that, I don't get it.

Last edited by rdwight; 29th July 2019 at 09:42 PM.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:42 PM   #78
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People who don't have children should be compensated, get tax breaks and medals.
Of course it's selfish having children, you are just following a biological drive and doing what feels good, there is nothing rational about it.
BTW Earth Overshoot Day was yesterday.
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:47 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
I wonder what other situations people feel the confidence and need to convey their opinion so strongly to strangers. Only one that pops up is ex smokers commenting on the danger when I'm smoking, but I love adding to the list.

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Old 29th July 2019, 11:06 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Easy to access information clearly states the 2007 US birth rate was above the replacement rate of 2.1 lives births per woman.

2007?! I knew it! Obama's to blame!!!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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