ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 7th August 2019, 11:27 AM   #41
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,170
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Controversy drives views, which drive comments, which increases views, and so on in a self-reinforcing pattern, which advertisers like because it keeps eyes on their products. And because far-right pundits generate view quickly and in high volume, they get pushed to the top of the recommendations lists.
And of course with ties to communities that are in themselves innocent you get people falling into indoctrinating media with out meaning too. For example from looking into history or swords and armor on youtube I find lots of anti feminists appearing as suggestions.

There are all kinds of ties like this that feed niche interests into extremist ideologies.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2019, 11:28 AM   #42
Juniversal
CIA + FBI + NWO Employee
 
Juniversal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,046
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I don't see how any "national dialogue" about mass murder domestic terrorism could put aside mental illness. I don't see how it could not be an essential element of the topic.

The mass shooter who is identified as white supremacist has got to fall within the diagnosis of mental illness. These are often suicide missions so you have a person who expects to die and they can prevent their own death by stopping their own plan. But they go ahead with it anyway and so that suggests mental illness. Even if they are caught and spend life in prison they know that it will be without any existing friends and family - forever.

It's as if they have already abandoned all friends and family. As if they are already dead. How can they love anyone in this world and then go and do this? You would be ruining anything good in your world by suddenly killing a bunch of people.

How can a mentally healthy person make this decision?
Ask any suicide bomber. This is exactly the point of this thread. Islamic terrorist/suicide attackers aren't afforded any sort of sympathy or speculation about their motives beyond ideology. Islamic terrorism, Nazism and kamikaze pilots speak to the power of ideology to allow one to commit barbaric and suicidal acts.

That being said I'm NOT saying mental health or mental health issues don't play a role in any case or these are all the same but I don't believe we're given enough credit to the role of ideology in contributing to these recent attacks (specifically those that left a manifesto with white supremacist motivations) and are far too willing to attribute it to mental illness rather than ideology when it's a white male attacker.
__________________
"God is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance." - Neil deGrasse Tyson
Juniversal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2019, 12:23 PM   #43
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12,329
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I don't see how any "national dialogue" about mass murder domestic terrorism could put aside mental illness. I don't see how it could not be an essential element of the topic.

The mass shooter who is identified as white supremacist has got to fall within the diagnosis of mental illness. These are often suicide missions so you have a person who expects to die and they can prevent their own death by stopping their own plan. But they go ahead with it anyway and so that suggests mental illness. Even if they are caught and spend life in prison they know that it will be without any existing friends and family - forever.

It's as if they have already abandoned all friends and family. As if they are already dead. How can they love anyone in this world and then go and do this? You would be ruining anything good in your world by suddenly killing a bunch of people.

How can a mentally healthy person make this decision?
I've referred to WS for years as white-power mental defectives but my contact with the defectives in question leads me to believe that they're better described as garden variety miserable pricks. They can't interact in acceptable social constructs and end up finding like-minded losers.

I don't believe that there's necessarily diagnosable mental health issues behind it. Some people are miserable pricks and will be that till the day they die.

I knew a fella (that had nothing to do with any political issues) that was just that. He was convinced that every individual he encountered was lying to him and was attempting to rob him.

Guys that knew him as a young guy said his parents told him every day of his life to not trust anyone and never trust a woman. He died with millions in the bank and as alone as alone gets. The only reason he even lowered himself to talk to me was because I was a cop.

It's my understanding that his father was the same - the description I heard from reliable sources was the old man could drive through the Marina District in S.F. in the most expensive current model (he got a new one every year) Cadillac convertible counting all the buildings he owned and still be pissed out of his mind that he had to pay a union truck driver $1.55 an hour PLUS overtime!
__________________
"When a man who is honestly mistaken, hears the truth, he will either cease being mistaken or cease being honest." - Anonymous

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2019, 01:09 PM   #44
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,331
Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
... but these young men are convinced they are social pariahs that have no hope of ever having romantic success and become extremely bitter and spiteful towards women and society immigrants. It's a literal pity party in the form of a subculture.

FTFY.
They have every reason to feel bitter about society, but they have no idea what society is and how it works. Their racism is sincere! They actually think that black guys and Mexicans are the reason why they don't have jobs, education and girlfriends. They truly believe in capitalism and the American way. It's what ought to reward them for being the outstanding individuals that they are if it weren't for ...
They are too ignorant to know that factories hire you if they can use you to make a profit, and if they can't, they don't. You find yourself being unemployed through no fault of your own, unlike that ******* Spic who still has a job so isn't it obvious that he's to blame - even though the guy who fired you was pasty white. (But what made him fire you and keep the Mexican on the payroll? Must be a Jew!)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2019, 02:14 PM   #45
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,744
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And of course with ties to communities that are in themselves innocent you get people falling into indoctrinating media with out meaning too. For example from looking into history or swords and armor on youtube I find lots of anti feminists appearing as suggestions.

There are all kinds of ties like this that feed niche interests into extremist ideologies.

Yeah, I've noticed that. After doing some research on medieval arms and amour and early firearms, I found a bunch of the conservative anti-feminist, heavily-right-leaning stuff popping up in my feed. It doesn't help that a lot of the guys (and so far it is all guys) who do the swords-and-armour and classic firearm stuff tend to lean in the right-wing anti-feminist direction themselves.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2019, 02:27 PM   #46
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12,329
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Yeah, I've noticed that. After doing some research on medieval arms and amour and early firearms, I found a bunch of the conservative anti-feminist, heavily-right-leaning stuff popping up in my feed. It doesn't help that a lot of the guys (and so far it is all guys) who do the swords-and-armour and classic firearm stuff tend to lean in the right-wing anti-feminist direction themselves.
I don't believe I've run into any actual anti-feminists, but conservatives and guns go together like hippies and tie-dye.
__________________
"When a man who is honestly mistaken, hears the truth, he will either cease being mistaken or cease being honest." - Anonymous

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2019, 02:37 PM   #47
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,744
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I don't believe I've run into any actual anti-feminists, but conservatives and guns go together like hippies and tie-dye.

I've run into a few; not rabid ones, but definitely leaning in that direction. The type that tend to preface their comments with some variation of "I'm not anti-feminist, but..."

There's a pretty large part of the left that supports firearm ownership as well, mostly hardliners and left-libertarian types. One of my favorite firearm guys on Youtube is stringently and persistently apolitical, but some of the behind the scenes stuff tends to indicate a left-libertarian leaning.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2019, 03:10 PM   #48
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,534
Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
At the conclusion of yet another series of mass shootings I've been pretty unnerved by society's unwillingness to actually address the glaring problem at the core of many of these recent politically motivated mass shootings. Namely a white supremacist ideology that seems to be highly influential and radicalizing to young white males.


Instead we want to blame violent video games, movies and mental illness. At what point do we blame the ideology and the pervasiveness of the extremely racist, misogynistic and violent content that come from the depths of 4Chan, 8Chan or just pure white nationalism i.e. StormFront, that creates a Frankenstein's monster of a white supremacist ideology? This tendency to view white males endlessly empathetically speaks to America's racial blind spot and the the ivory tower of whiteness. It's the "affluenza" phenomenon all over again.


When an Islamist commits an act of terror, America has had little hesitation in indicting the religion, the ideology and leveling scorn and hatred at the entire Muslim population (including banning travel from countries with large muslim populations). Mental illness is rarely, if ever considered (and in many, if not most cases, rightfully so).


At what point do we admit this ideology might actually play a bigger role than mental illness and have a national dialogue about it? The popularity of Mr. "There were fine people on both sides" and "lets blame violent videogames" leaves me with very little hope.

The numbers are lower than they were just a few years ago. Where was the outrage then? Suddenly Trump comes along, the statistics haven't changed, but hey we have someone to point a finger at now!

https://www.adl.org/murder-and-extremism-2018

Quote:
In 2018, domestic extremists killed at least 50 people in the U.S., a sharp increase from the 37 extremist-related murders documented in 2017, though still lower than the totals for 2015 (70) and 2016 (72). The 50 deaths make 2018 the fourth-deadliest year on record for domestic extremist-related killings since 1970.

The extremist-related murders in 2018 were overwhelmingly linked to right-wing extremists. Every one of the perpetrators had ties to at least one right-wing extremist movement, although one had recently switched to supporting Islamist extremism. White supremacists were responsible for the great majority of the killings, which is typically the case.

Some perspective - white supremacists are responsible for the vast majority of these 50 deaths reported last year. 50.

Most mass shootings are not politically motivated, most are not perpetrated by white supremacists. As many people are killed by lightning, give or take one or two.

I don't defend supremacists, I am posting this because one narrative in this country is leading toward white guy = bad guy. I wouldn't normally think so but given the large amount of mob-mentality "OMG Outrage" these days it's not inconceivable.

I don't think some people realize that the more you try to force people to do what you want (faux morality, for instance) the more people are going to resent you for it, and those you think you are helping.

You wanna force American taxpayers to pay black reparations? You want to force us to accept a million illegals per year? You want to force us to be a sanctuary state and pay for it all? You are going to build resentment.

That is where at least some of this is coming from. Too much pushing.

My parent's landscaper says he hears people telling him to "go home" and he feels it's because of the illegals streaming into the country and the "sanctuary state" that was forced upon Californians. He doesn't want this either.

He says, "They make me look bad and I get mean looks now". He's from Mexico. We let him keep his sheep and goat here on the property, his work truck and trailers, and he kind of lives here off and on I think. For free. I'm sure I've seen him sleeping in his car. My parents are white Christian Republicans btw. Huh go figure. I hear they're the enemy.

I think people read watch the news too much without looking outside and seeing what reality looks like.
__________________
Franklin understands certain kickbacks you obtain unfairly are legal liabilities; however, a risky deed's almost never detrimental despite extra external pressures.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2019, 04:47 PM   #49
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,150
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
The numbers are lower than they were just a few years ago. Where was the outrage then? Suddenly Trump comes along, the statistics haven't changed, but hey we have someone to point a finger at now!

https://www.adl.org/murder-and-extremism-2018




Some perspective - white supremacists are responsible for the vast majority of these 50 deaths reported last year. 50.
Disappointed they didn't get any more?

Seriously tho, the issue is that white supremacists are getting more active and killing more people. In ADL's statistics, white supremacists killed twice as many people in 2017 as in 2016. Thus, it's a problem that is increasing. In 2018, in all of the murders where the killer was driven by an extremist ideology, it was an extreme right wing ideology. Since 9/11, the extreme right wing has killed more people in America than Islamic terrorists. Yet, we don't treat them the same way we do Islamic terrorists.


Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Most mass shootings are not politically motivated, most are not perpetrated by white supremacists. As many people are killed by lightning, give or take one or two.
We take measures to avoid people being killed by lightning. We don't do that when it comes to right wing extremists.

Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I don't defend supremacists,
Yes, yes you do. When you try to down play right wing terrorism like this, you are absolutely defending it, intentionally or not.

Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I am posting this because one narrative in this country is leading toward white guy = bad guy.
Ah... I see that I shouldn't have bothered. You are one of those "not racist but..." kind of people.

Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I wouldn't normally think so but given the large amount of mob-mentality "OMG Outrage" these days it's not inconceivable.
Yes, it's inconceivable. Lay of the Fox White Power Hour.

Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I don't think some people realize that the more you try to force people to do what you want (faux morality, for instance) the more people are going to resent you for it, and those you think you are helping.

You wanna force American taxpayers to pay black reparations? You want to force us to accept a million illegals per year? You want to force us to be a sanctuary state and pay for it all? You are going to build resentment.

That is where at least some of this is coming from. Too much pushing.

My parent's landscaper says he hears people telling him to "go home" and he feels it's because of the illegals streaming into the country and the "sanctuary state" that was forced upon Californians. He doesn't want this either.

He says, "They make me look bad and I get mean looks now". He's from Mexico. We let him keep his sheep and goat here on the property, his work truck and trailers, and he kind of lives here off and on I think. For free. I'm sure I've seen him sleeping in his car. My parents are white Christian Republicans btw. Huh go figure. I hear they're the enemy.

I think people read watch the news too much without looking outside and seeing what reality looks like.
And this rant is just more of "not racist but..." BS.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

Last edited by zooterkin; 17th August 2019 at 01:15 PM.
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2019, 06:54 PM   #50
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 23,668
Sort of thought-provoking article in The Atlantic:

To Learn About the Far Right, Start With the ‘Manosphere’
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2019, 07:49 PM   #51
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 36,892
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Disappointed they didn't get any more?
That's a pretty messed up thing to say.
Quote:

Seriously tho,
Seriously tho, it's a pretty messed up thing to say.

Quote:

And this rant is just more of "not racist but..." BS.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
You know what? Never mind. Reported.

I just hope I'm not the only one.

Last edited by zooterkin; 17th August 2019 at 01:16 PM.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2019, 11:49 PM   #52
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,331
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I don't defend supremacists, I am posting this because one narrative in this country is leading toward white guy = bad guy.

Which narrative would that be?! Are you sure that you're not confusing it with white supremacist = bad guy? They're not the same thing, you know. At least, they aren't if you're able to distinguish between white and white supremacist, which many white supremacists aren't. They actually think that they are talking and acting on behalf of the race and not on behalf of their own racist ideology.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2019, 12:03 AM   #53
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,331
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Most mass shootings are not politically motivated, most are not perpetrated by white supremacists. As many people are killed by lightning, give or take one or two.
We take measures to avoid people being killed by lightning. We don't do that when it comes to right wing extremists.

Well, you know, if you look at white-supremacist mass shootings as a force of nature instead of as racism in action, you get used to it, calm down and learn to take your precautions: Don't seek shelter under a tree from a hail of bullets. Don't think that an umbrella will protect you from white supremacism. Don't stand out in the open during an outbreak of white supremacism, lie down, preferably behind something or else you'll be shot trying to protect your baby. Don't wear glaring colours during a white supremacist attack. And most important of all, don't be coloured under any circumstances!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2019, 12:23 AM   #54
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not where I should be.
Posts: 6,548
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
The numbers are lower than they were just a few years ago. Where was the outrage then? Suddenly Trump comes along, the statistics haven't changed, but hey we have someone to point a finger at now!

https://www.adl.org/murder-and-extremism-2018




Some perspective - white supremacists are responsible for the vast majority of these 50 deaths reported last year. 50.

Most mass shootings are not politically motivated, most are not perpetrated by white supremacists. As many people are killed by lightning, give or take one or two.

I don't defend supremacists, I am posting this because one narrative in this country is leading toward white guy = bad guy. I wouldn't normally think so but given the large amount of mob-mentality "OMG Outrage" these days it's not inconceivable.

I don't think some people realize that the more you try to force people to do what you want (faux morality, for instance) the more people are going to resent you for it, and those you think you are helping.

You wanna force American taxpayers to pay black reparations? You want to force us to accept a million illegals per year? You want to force us to be a sanctuary state and pay for it all? You are going to build resentment.

That is where at least some of this is coming from. Too much pushing.

My parent's landscaper says he hears people telling him to "go home" and he feels it's because of the illegals streaming into the country and the "sanctuary state" that was forced upon Californians. He doesn't want this either.

He says, "They make me look bad and I get mean looks now". He's from Mexico. We let him keep his sheep and goat here on the property, his work truck and trailers, and he kind of lives here off and on I think. For free. I'm sure I've seen him sleeping in his car. My parents are white Christian Republicans btw. Huh go figure. I hear they're the enemy.

I think people read watch the news too much without looking outside and seeing what reality looks like.
Quit writing well thought out and reasonable posts. If you don't goose step in time with this lot you are a................. oh, I see someones already put you in your place (and earned 14 internet points with a morality multiplier of 2).
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2019, 12:28 AM   #55
Francesca R
Girl
 
Francesca R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London EC1
Posts: 18,476
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I don't believe I've run into any actual anti-feminists
It's a bit hard, nay impossible, to believe that anyone has not run into an anti feminist.
Francesca R is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2019, 12:34 AM   #56
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 8,915
Let's just allocate Funds for fighting domestic terrorism according to deaths caused.
That should free up a lot from the fight against Islamic terrorism in the US.
__________________
Careful! That tree's bark is worse than its bite.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2019, 02:32 AM   #57
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,331
Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Quit writing well thought out and reasonable posts.

Yes, if you have nothing of interest to say yourself, it's very important to award mgidm86 right-wing internet morality points because that's the whole point, right?!

Quote:
If you don't goose step in time with this lot you are a................. oh, I see someones already put you in your place (and earned 14 internet points with a morality multiplier of 2).

Yes, awarding internet morality points is something liberals and socialists do, riiiiiight!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 8th August 2019 at 02:45 AM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2019, 02:44 AM   #58
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,331
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Sort of thought-provoking article in The Atlantic:

To Learn About the Far Right, Start With the ‘Manosphere’

Yes, very interesting!

Quote:
Then there’s the sexual revolution. Put simply, Western women are largely choosing for themselves whom to have sex with, rather than having their lives dictated by families, religion, or the state. The modern far right often rails against conservative Muslim communities—several British groups, such as the English Defence League, warn frequently about the alleged encroachment of Sharia law—but these sentiments are, paradoxically, mixed with an admiration for societies in which women’s sexual freedoms are restricted. According to Mattheis, the far right argues that Muslim men control Muslim women, and that means “their civilization is rising [while] the West is declining.”
To Learn About the Far Right, Start With the ‘Manosphere’ (Atlantic, Aug. 7, 2019)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2019, 05:22 AM   #59
Juniversal
CIA + FBI + NWO Employee
 
Juniversal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,046
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
The numbers are lower than they were just a few years ago. Where was the outrage then? Suddenly Trump comes along, the statistics haven't changed, but hey we have someone to point a finger at now!

https://www.adl.org/murder-and-extremism-2018




Some perspective - white supremacists are responsible for the vast majority of these 50 deaths reported last year. 50.

Most mass shootings are not politically motivated, most are not perpetrated by white supremacists. As many people are killed by lightning, give or take one or two.

I don't defend supremacists, I am posting this because one narrative in this country is leading toward white guy = bad guy. I wouldn't normally think so but given the large amount of mob-mentality "OMG Outrage" these days it's not inconceivable.

I don't think some people realize that the more you try to force people to do what you want (faux morality, for instance) the more people are going to resent you for it, and those you think you are helping.
Well the OP wasn't generalized to America nor relegated to just 2018. The christ church shooting falls under the same umbrella. The prevelance of these incidents carried out by white males with white supremacist leanings can't be overlooked.

Quote:
You wanna force American taxpayers to pay black reparations? You want to force us to accept a million illegals per year? You want to force us to be a sanctuary state and pay for it all? You are going to build resentment.

That is where at least some of this is coming from. Too much pushing.
Cry me a river. The same could be said in 1950's America when jim crow was eroding. "Too much pushing". Not impressed...

Quote:
My parent's landscaper says he hears people telling him to "go home" and he feels it's because of the illegals streaming into the country and the "sanctuary state" that was forced upon Californians. He doesn't want this either.

He says, "They make me look bad and I get mean looks now". He's from Mexico. We let him keep his sheep and goat here on the property, his work truck and trailers, and he kind of lives here off and on I think. For free. I'm sure I've seen him sleeping in his car. My parents are white Christian Republicans btw. Huh go figure. I hear they're the enemy.

I think people read watch the news too much without looking outside and seeing what reality looks like.
Again sounds an awful lot like 1950s America when the blacks were moving in. I'm not swayed by means looks.
__________________
"God is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance." - Neil deGrasse Tyson
Juniversal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2019, 05:33 AM   #60
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,170
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Yeah, I've noticed that. After doing some research on medieval arms and amour and early firearms, I found a bunch of the conservative anti-feminist, heavily-right-leaning stuff popping up in my feed. It doesn't help that a lot of the guys (and so far it is all guys) who do the swords-and-armour and classic firearm stuff tend to lean in the right-wing anti-feminist direction themselves.
The channels I actually follow it is hard to tell I mean I am sure some of them have silly ideas like if they had been at the el paso walmart unlike all the concealed carry holders that were there they would have done something, but they seem to keep politics out of it as much as possible.

Though the guy trying to prove the book of mormon is kind of funny.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2019, 11:33 AM   #61
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not where I should be.
Posts: 6,548
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, if you have nothing of interest to say yourself, it's very important to award mgidm86 right-wing internet morality points because that's the whole point, right?!
You'd rather just Nazi him up?


Quote:
Yes, awarding internet morality points is something liberals and socialists do, riiiiiight!
Absolutely, and to a far greater extent than any other political group. This forum is littered with point grabbing posts.

....... O wad some Power the giftie gie us........
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2019, 11:53 AM   #62
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,744
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, awarding internet morality points is something liberals and socialists do, riiiiiight!

You keep forgetting, when the left does anything, it's always "virtue signaling" or "point scoring"; but when the right does the same kind of thing, it's "defending the truth", because they clearly have a monopoly on truth, no matter what the actual facts are.

And never forget that "white people are the true victims".
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2019, 11:55 AM   #63
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,794
Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
No one says that Peterson is the same as actual white supremacists or that he's alt-right, the claim is that he's often at the start of the pipeline that can lead people down the rabbit hole that eventually ends up there. Do you think he isn't?
Yes, I think he isn't. Because I listen to what he actually says. He's very explicitly against white supremacism. I think anyone who actually listens to what he says is more likely to reject white supremacism than adopt it.

Quote:
Because I've seen more than one study tying him to that world through things like youtube watches.
That's a bull **** metric. Any progression in YouTube viewing habits has more to do with YouTube's suggested viewing algorithms than with anything Peterson says. YouTube itself bears far more responsibility in that respect than Peterson. Its suggestions can help radicalize people in both directions.

Quote:
Don't forget, he also regularly appears right wing media outlets like Prager U
Prager U is certainly conservative, but it sure as hell isn't white supremacist.

Quote:
and has done videos with noted white supremacist/cult leader Stefan Molyneaux (coincidentally, another figure who presents his ideology as self-help).
The fact that he's done a video with Molyneaux isn't really relevant compared to what the contents of the video were. Was he agreeing with Molyneaux's views on race? I doubt that. Was he arguing against Molyneaux's views on race? That seems more likely, and if so, that could be a good thing. Maybe he might get some of Molyneaux's viewers to change their perspective, something you won't do by berating or insulting them. Or was it some completely different topic?

Quote:
And it's really not hard to see why he can lead people in that direction. He wrote a self-help book pretty much targeted at alienated and depressed young white men, and through it (along with his internet presence) cultivated a devoted, cult-like fanbase.
I don't think you actually understand how cults work, if you think that's cult-like.

Quote:
He uses his platforms to advance his worldview, which (among other things) says that hierarchies are good,
Nope. This is a straw man. Heirarchies can be good or bad. What Peterson says about them is that they are inevitable, unavoidable, and built into our biology. But they certainly aren't all the same. This seems to offend lots of people, but I haven't really seen any coherent argument against it, mostly just misrepresentations of it.

Quote:
and that there's been a concerted effort by "posmodern neomarxists" to essentially keep things from his audience and destroy society.
I don't see what that has to do with white supremacy, since postmodern neomarxism is a white invention.

Quote:
On top of that, he also has a propensity for saying some pretty misogynist things, like that it's impossible to have a reasonable discussion with women because you can't threaten violence or that women represent chaos, and he expresses a lot of anger in 12 Rules For Life.
I don't find your characterization credible.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2019, 12:34 PM   #64
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,331
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Prager U is certainly conservative, but it sure as hell isn't white supremacist.

I hadn't heard about PragerU, but if this is it (Is it?!), it's hilarious:

Quote:
Race and ethnicity have defined every nation on earth.

Except one: the USA.
@prageru
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2019, 01:13 PM   #65
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,794
Originally Posted by dann View Post
I hadn't heard about PragerU, but if this is it (Is it?!), it's hilarious:
Yes, it is. Regardless of how funny you think it is, do you think that statement sounds like white supremacy?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2019, 01:16 PM   #66
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,170
Originally Posted by dann View Post
I hadn't heard about PragerU, but if this is it (Is it?!), it's hilarious:
Oh they are crazy as hell, no idea if they are full on white supremacist or some other flavor.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2019, 01:31 PM   #67
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 16,667
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You deplatform the named people and websites. Everyone else can go about their day enjoying freedom of speech.
Yes, you "deplatform" (great euphemism) the most popular news channel, and people like Ben Shapiro.

I'm always amused when liberals/lefties let down their guards like this and admit how much they want to control opinion. It's almost like they realize their arguments are losing in the marketplace of ideas.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2019, 01:38 PM   #68
ArchSas
Thinker
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 145
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yes, it is. Regardless of how funny you think it is, do you think that statement sounds like white supremacy?
I never said they were, only that they're "right wing," which I think is pretty fair. For that matter, I've already said twice I don't think Peterson is a white supremacist, either. I can certainly understand why you didn't find my characterization credible; you seem to be under the impression I'm accusing everything he says of supporting white supremacy, which, again, isn't even close to what I've actually said about the guy.

As far as whether or not he's a gateway to white supremacy, you're obviously free to disagree; I was just clarifying the mistake that you and Cullennz made. I don't feel like getting into a discussion about Peterson right now, and that isn't what this thread is about.

Last edited by ArchSas; 8th August 2019 at 01:43 PM.
ArchSas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2019, 01:44 PM   #69
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,696
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I've been told the most realistic cop show was Reno 911.
Death Valley was far superior.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2019, 05:01 PM   #70
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,150
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Yes, you "deplatform" (great euphemism) the most popular news channel, and people like Ben Shapiro.
Because they are part of the radicalization channel, yes. Unless you're not interested in curbing white supremacist terrorism that is.

Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I'm always amused when liberals/lefties let down their guards like this and admit how much they want to control opinion. It's almost like they realize their arguments are losing in the marketplace of ideas.
The marketplace of ideas? You mean the place were lies sell better than facts? Yeah, I don't know about that place.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2019, 05:25 PM   #71
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,744
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Because they are part of the radicalization channel, yes. Unless you're not interested in curbing white supremacist terrorism that is.

I've noticed very little of the hard-right is even willing to acknowledge the existence of white supremacist terrorism. It's all just mentally-ill lone-wolves according to them; nothing remotely ideology-driven, only Islamic terrorists are ideology-driven.



Quote:
The marketplace of ideas? You mean the place were lies sell better than facts? Yeah, I don't know about that place.

There's a reason conservatives like the "marketplace" analogy, because marketplaces are not driven by facts, they're driven by image and feelings. They love to "compete" in the "marketplace of ideas", because that is the one place where the worldview is designed by whoever is most convincing, most forceful, and most emotionally appealing; with reason and fact quickly discarded and denigrated when they're not useful in pushing the agenda. The marketplace doesn't reward truth, it rewards simple, easy answers that don't require thought or effort. That's why religion so consistently wins out over skepticism in the marketplace of ideas, and why Islam is the world's fastest-growing religion. Something the conservatives don't like to think too much about.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2019, 05:39 AM   #72
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,331
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yes, it is. Regardless of how funny you think it is, do you think that statement sounds like white supremacy?

Yes! It can't be more racist than claiming that one of the most racist countries in the world is the one exception to the rule that "Race and ethnicity have defined every nation on earth."

Being in denial about racism doesn't make you the least bit less racist: White South Africans in apartheid denial (eNCA, Dec. 6, 2013)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2019, 06:40 AM   #73
rockysmith76
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 60
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Other then totally taking away freedom of speech, how do you stop it?

That the opposing extreme under the guise of being "PC". Creating universal "Safe spaces" for those lulled into giving up freedoms in favor of "Security and Safety", which is another form of fear mongering.

This is not to negate the mass shootings on the news, BUT the news isn't imo about information any more, it's prepackaged propaganda, be it from the extreme left or right sides of the Political aisle.

Overreaction will be as potentially damaging to a free society as is ignoring the issue.
rockysmith76 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2019, 06:43 AM   #74
rockysmith76
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 60
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You deplatform the named people and websites. Everyone else can go about their day enjoying freedom of speech.
Unlikely, others will fill the gaps left by those Censored, then they will be censored, and while the content they put out is offensive to some, it's just as easy to gain censorship over other content tomorrow. Like it or not Liberal fearmongering as just as bad as alt-right fear mongering.
rockysmith76 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2019, 06:45 AM   #75
rockysmith76
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 60
Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I think the idea that white supremacist motivations are a recent trend among some mass killers in the U.S. is supported by the evidence.

But there's a risk of extending that label to all or most white mass killers simply cause they're white, not because they did it for some ideology they believe in. You see media and just random joes conflating them all the time.
Very good point, it muddies the waters of the real issue, it's no different than pinning a bad thing on a particular ethnicity. And we already live in a time of Internment camps at the Southern Border.
rockysmith76 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2019, 06:47 AM   #76
rockysmith76
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 60
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Which is more important "freedom of speech" or peoples lives and the survival of human society?

You inflate the issue with your wording, survival of Humanity, these are still isolated incidents to some degree, loss of Freedom of Speech and suddenly you're no different than Putin's Russia.
rockysmith76 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2019, 07:00 AM   #77
rockysmith76
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 60
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Disappointed they didn't get any more?
And this rant is just more of "not racist but..." BS. Leave it out next time if you want to pretend to not be a vile racist.
That is textbook PC mob mentality and overreaction and this coming from a Non Republican. The issue is more nuanced than just oh my god Racists with Guns.

Firstly, ANYONE can be a bigot towards a group they don't like, and censoring free speech and restricting one's right to defend themselves in a dangerous world are things some of us are not willing to part with. Especially with the level of Police Corruption minorities and others see on a daily basis.
rockysmith76 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2019, 07:03 AM   #78
rockysmith76
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 60
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Yes, you "deplatform" (great euphemism) the most popular news channel, and people like Ben Shapiro.

I'm always amused when liberals/lefties let down their guards like this and admit how much they want to control opinion. It's almost like they realize their arguments are losing in the marketplace of ideas.
Right Wing = Fear Mongering
Left Wing = Thought Police

is either really any better?
rockysmith76 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2019, 07:07 AM   #79
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,150
Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Unlikely, others will fill the gaps left by those Censored, then they will be censored, and while the content they put out is offensive to some, it's just as easy to gain censorship over other content tomorrow. Like it or not Liberal fearmongering as just as bad as alt-right fear mongering.
Liberal fearmongering about Nazis is as bad as Nazi "fearmongering" (incitement to violence)?

No. No, it's not.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2019, 07:08 AM   #80
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,150
Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
You inflate the issue with your wording, survival of Humanity, these are still isolated incidents to some degree, loss of Freedom of Speech and suddenly you're no different than Putin's Russia.
He didn't say "survival of Humanity". Answer his actual point. Not your strawman.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:12 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.