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Old 9th August 2019, 11:10 AM   #41
Belz...
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Could you depend on police, firemen, and the like? Was your electrical service good? Trash pickup followed a regular schedule? Streets maintained, plowed within, say, 3 days of major snowfall if applicable? If you had/used public transit, did it follow a publicly available schedule? Were businesses blocked from dumping waste (human and industrial) next to schools and playgrounds? Did your schools have up-to-date heating and/or AC? Were they up to standard building codes, or was that at least expected? Did you have access to fresh food to cook?
I don't think I made it clear. There were no black neighborhoods to compare mine to, back then. You were hard pressed to find a black person within 200 km of my location. You can't just use the US (or parts of it) as a template for the whole planet.
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Old 9th August 2019, 11:53 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'd say the Dutch beat the British to modern capitalism. All those leagues and joint-stock things, merchants and burghers: the things that make the history of that area so very dull compared to their contemporaries who were still kings and queens constantly bedded and beheaded.
British and Dutch- aren't they both White?
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Old 9th August 2019, 11:57 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
British and Dutch- aren't they both White?
The Dutch are. The British are way whiter than white. Did you see those Narnia movies? Those kids blended in with the snow. There's a charity that collects melanin donated from albinos to give to needy Brits.
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Old 9th August 2019, 12:04 PM   #44
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I'm thinking that killing someone to prove your loyalty is probably the ultimate virtue signal.

Tattooing the in-group's symbol on your face is probably also near the top of that list.

Posting on social media probably isn't the ultimate anything, anymore. Definitely virtue signaling, though.
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Old 9th August 2019, 12:58 PM   #45
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Why do we care what Jerry Coyne thinks of Patricia Arquette?


Eh...Rosanna Arquette

Last edited by Elagabalus; 9th August 2019 at 12:59 PM.
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Old 9th August 2019, 01:27 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Saw it, it was irritating. Whether or not she "feels guilty" about being white is of no concern to any nonwhite person. That's her problem to deal with. It's her behavior that's important - and if all she does is sit around blathering about how she feels guilty, it starts to look like someone trying to get out of doing any work.

But having said that...



Could you depend on police, firemen, and the like? Was your electrical service good? Trash pickup followed a regular schedule? Streets maintained, plowed within, say, 3 days of major snowfall if applicable? If you had/used public transit, did it follow a publicly available schedule? Were businesses blocked from dumping waste (human and industrial) next to schools and playgrounds? Did your schools have up-to-date heating and/or AC? Were they up to standard building codes, or was that at least expected? Did you have access to fresh food to cook?

Because I grew up in a black neighborhood, and we had exactly none of that - in the late 80s to early 90s. And the *early* 80s were even worse.
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Old 9th August 2019, 01:51 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The Virtue Signal sounds like something the Commissioner would fire up to summon a really lame Christian superhero. Perhaps Saving Grace, whose power is talking earnestly to criminals and giving them pamphlets. Her nemesis would be the supervillain Original Sin, who never commits exactly the same crime twice. This began as a joke but now I kind of want to see it.

Ah... the Bat Signal for SuperJeebus!
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Old 9th August 2019, 01:55 PM   #48
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Oh, and Patricia & Rosanna Arquette are two different people,

http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/P...GknCwNGI_l.jpg
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Old 9th August 2019, 01:59 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'd say the Dutch beat the British to modern capitalism. All those leagues and joint-stock things, merchants and burghers: the things that make the history of that area so very dull compared to their contemporaries who were still kings and queens constantly bedded and beheaded.
To say nothing of inventing the TLA.

At least that's what I think of the VOC
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Old 9th August 2019, 01:59 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Oh, and Patricia & Rosanna Arquette are two different people,

http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/P...GknCwNGI_l.jpg
I'm willing to bet that both of them hate that picture.
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Old 9th August 2019, 02:08 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
I'm willing to bet that both of them hate that picture.
Well, I think at least Patricia will
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Old 9th August 2019, 02:43 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Isn't that a sort of bonus?



That sounds like an appeal to ignorance. So many woos are based on the idea that, yeah you can't see it but that's because you don't believe... or because they've got a cloaking device. Telling me that I don't see X because that's exactly what X would entail is not a great way to convince me.

Besides, what privilege would I have as a white person in an all white area?

Being in an all-white area.
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Old 9th August 2019, 04:50 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Being in an all-white area.
No, that would be a racist answer.
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Old 9th August 2019, 06:45 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Being in an all-white area.
True it is a privilege to be around white people
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Old 9th August 2019, 07:15 PM   #55
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I don't think anybody has to apologize for being born white; but if somebody chooses to do so, okay. It doesn't strike me as proof that "identity politics are bad", or whatever that article is trying to imply or assert.
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Old 9th August 2019, 08:00 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I don't think anybody has to apologize for being born white; but if somebody chooses to do so, okay.
Yeah but what about those folks who were forced to be born white?
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Old 10th August 2019, 12:46 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
British and Dutch- aren't they both White?

Yes, pretty much. And their slaves were black.
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Old 10th August 2019, 12:47 AM   #58
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Quote:
But she told The Wrap on Thursday that she was allegedly instructed to lock her account by the FBI. She declined to elaborate on the agency's involvement with her and the account but noted that it was an effort to protect herself from "threatening and cruel" online responses to her tweet.
Rosanna Arquette says FBI now involved after she tweeted she's ashamed to be 'born white and privileged' (Fox News, Aug. 9, 2019)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th August 2019, 01:02 AM   #59
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That Fox News article is dreadful. It fails to mention "After Hours" in the select filmography.
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Old 10th August 2019, 01:04 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No, that would be a racist answer.
It wouldn't
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Old 10th August 2019, 01:17 AM   #61
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Was going to say the tweet is pretty funny in a sad way and then I noticed while typing my keyboards letters are all white on black. Almost invading the the space of the black buttons.

Now I can only feel shame and embarrassment at the privilege
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Old 10th August 2019, 01:30 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
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Trust white-pride types to throw out their backs with rage over somebody they don't even know saying she's ashamed to be white.
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Old 10th August 2019, 03:14 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Trust white-pride types to throw out their backs with rage over somebody they don't even know saying she's ashamed to be white.
She is a D list star with a few thousand followers saying something dumb on Twitter.

It is kind of laughable how stupid the press is getting picking up the odd Twitter post and pretending it actually means anything
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 10th August 2019, 04:18 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Trust white-pride types to throw out their backs with rage over somebody they don't even know saying she's ashamed to be white.

I'm not angry over it, just confused why someone is apologizing for being born.
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Old 10th August 2019, 04:39 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Trust white-pride types to throw out their backs with rage over somebody they don't even know saying she's ashamed to be white.
Nice white knight attempt
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Old 10th August 2019, 05:15 AM   #66
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I will admit it. I am ashamed to have been born white and knowing how little of my accomplishments were not advances by it. Especially because I have accomplished so little.

I'm also ashamed that my existence gives support for Watergate.
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Old 10th August 2019, 05:21 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
I'm not angry over it, just confused why someone is apologizing for being born.
My mother has apologised many times for me being born!
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Old 10th August 2019, 05:25 AM   #68
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
I'm not angry over it, just confused why someone is apologizing for being born.
Because our births are shameful.
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Old 10th August 2019, 06:55 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
She is a D list star with a few thousand followers saying something dumb on Twitter.

It is kind of laughable how stupid the press is getting picking up the odd Twitter post and pretending it actually means anything

Is white shame really that stupid?!
It's not very clever, as I pointed out in post 15, but all things considered, her stupdity does not come close to those hundreds of thousands of idiots who believe in white pride!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th August 2019, 06:56 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
My mother has apologised many times for me being born!

To you or to the rest of the world?!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th August 2019, 06:58 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Is white shame really that stupid?!
It's not very clever, as I pointed out in post 15, but all things considered, her stupdity does not come close to those hundreds of thousands of idiots who believe in white pride!
Huh? Other people are stupid, so it’s okay she is stupid?

What a stupid position to take.
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Old 10th August 2019, 07:23 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Huh? Other people are stupid, so it’s okay she is stupid?

What a stupid position to take.
Of course it's ok for her to be stupid. Why wouldn't it be?

Not saying she's actually stupid. Only that it would be ok if she was.
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Old 10th August 2019, 07:41 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I don't think I made it clear. There were no black neighborhoods to compare mine to, back then. You were hard pressed to find a black person within 200 km of my location. You can't just use the US (or parts of it) as a template for the whole planet.
Oh, I know.

But first, the comparison isn't just to black neighborhoods. Second, I didn't really put a maximum radius on it And third, you may want to consider the implication if there were only white people for hunderes of km around.

Point stands.
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Old 10th August 2019, 07:51 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
To you or to the rest of the world?!
Both!
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Old 10th August 2019, 08:00 AM   #75
dann
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Huh? Other people are stupid, so it’s okay she is stupid?

What a stupid position to take.

Yes. Now all you need to do is find somebody who takes that position.
By the way, I notice that the stupidity of white pride doesn't seem to concern you enough to mention it.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 10th August 2019 at 08:03 AM.
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Old 10th August 2019, 10:26 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Oh, I know.

But first, the comparison isn't just to black neighborhoods. Second, I didn't really put a maximum radius on it And third, you may want to consider the implication if there were only white people for hunderes of km around.

Point stands.
What is the implication? I ask because that describes my situation to a lesser distance and I'm at a loss as to what that says about where I live?
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Old 10th August 2019, 12:35 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Is white shame really that stupid?!
No.

Several times over the years I've felt somewhat "ashamed to be American" by things that the American government or American citizens abroad have done; it's especially been a near-daily occurrence in the last two-and-a-half years. Being "ashamed to be white" strikes me as analogous to that kind of situation.
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Old 10th August 2019, 12:35 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Saw it, it was irritating. Whether or not she "feels guilty" about being white is of no concern to any nonwhite person. That's her problem to deal with. It's her behavior that's important - and if all she does is sit around blathering about how she feels guilty, it starts to look like someone trying to get out of doing any work.

But having said that...



Could you depend on police, firemen, and the like? Was your electrical service good? Trash pickup followed a regular schedule? Streets maintained, plowed within, say, 3 days of major snowfall if applicable? If you had/used public transit, did it follow a publicly available schedule? Were businesses blocked from dumping waste (human and industrial) next to schools and playgrounds? Did your schools have up-to-date heating and/or AC? Were they up to standard building codes, or was that at least expected? Did you have access to fresh food to cook?

Because I grew up in a black neighborhood, and we had exactly none of that - in the late 80s to early 90s. And the *early* 80s were even worse.
While I get the concept, I’m uncomfortable with its broad application, because this sounds about the same as the rural south at that time. So I don’t see how growing up white trailer trash was any better. Crime, drugs, rampant sexual abuse, etc.

Privilege has more to do with means than race. The idea that all whites are privileged is an unfair stereotype.

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Old 10th August 2019, 12:53 PM   #79
ArchSas
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
While I get the concept, I’m uncomfortable with its broad application, because this sounds about the same as the rural south at that time. So I don’t see how growing up white trailer trash was any better. Crime, drugs, rampant sexual abuse, etc.

Privilege has more to do with means than race. The idea that all whites are privileged is an unfair stereotype.
As a person with a background in theory-heavy academia in a social science, I've always more or less agreed with this sentiment. It's why I like intersectional theory much more than the more commonly understood models of privilege and racism. They just always feel overly simplified to me, and to put it bluntly, formulated by privileged sociologists that didn't fully understand what they were talking about. McIntosh's original paper on white privilege, which is probably the biggest influence on discourse of the concept (as far as I know), is a really great example. Most of the things she talks about are actually related to class, and as a white person that grew up poor, it's painfully obvious. To be blunt again, the paper comes off to me as the work of an upper middle class white woman that doesn't understand not all white people are as well off as she is. As someone that actually grew up in a trailer, I certainly couldn't relate to a lot of the things she talks about. But, that's just my opinion.

There certainly are aspects of social interaction that are easier in the US if you're white. Cops assuming black teenagers are older and more of a threat being an obvious example. But being financially well off is much more of a source of privilege than race in many cases, and I don't like how often wealth and white privilege are conflated in popular discourse. It's not only inaccurate (to be clear, I'm not saying white privilege doesn't exist - it does - I'm just saying it's an incomplete and there are problems with how people talk about it), it's offputting and alienating to lots of people.

Last edited by ArchSas; 10th August 2019 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 10th August 2019, 01:13 PM   #80
jimbob
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
As a person with a background in theory-heavy academia in a social science, I've always more or less agreed with this sentiment. It's why I like intersectional theory much more than the more commonly understood models of privilege and racism. They just always feel overly simplified to me, and to put it bluntly, formulated by privileged sociologists that didn't fully understand what they were talking about. McIntosh's original paper on white privilege, which is probably the biggest influence on discourse of the concept (as far as I know), is a really great example. Most of the things she talks about are actually related to class, and as a white person that grew up poor, it's painfully obvious. To be blunt again, the paper comes off to me as the work of an upper middle class white woman that doesn't understand not all white people are as well off as she is. As someone that actually grew up in a trailer, I certainly couldn't relate to a lot of the things she talks about. But, that's just my opinion.

There certainly are aspects of social interaction that are easier in the US if you're white. Cops assuming black teenagers are older and more of a threat being an obvious example. But being financially well off is much more of a source of privilege than race in many cases, and I don't like how often wealth and white privilege are conflated in popular discourse. It's not only inaccurate (to be clear, I'm not saying white privilege doesn't exist - it does - I'm just saying it's an incomplete and there are problems with how people talk about it), it's offputting and alienating to lots of people.
I can't find my post but there was relatively recently a study showing that even wealthy black families tended to lose their wealth after a couple of generations, whilst white families in the same income deciles stayed up.
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OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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