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Old 12th August 2019, 07:54 AM   #81
rockysmith76
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
That's not what I said, is it?


What is it about this forum lately, where the first argument is so often made by twisting the words of another poster?

No wonder the members are dropping out like flies.
Yep, Liberals cause Forum Flight, and sarcasm is implied just maybe a lil bit.
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Old 12th August 2019, 09:50 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
African-Americans seem to have "embraced" the fact that many of them are less well off in rap and hip-hop and other aspects of their popular culture. It's not us middle-class African-Americans and those dirty thugs living in ghettos, it's just us, African-Americans, fighting a common cause against racism and income inequality.
This is so not how black people think. This is so not how black people talk. This is the garbage that gets spouted when a European reads bias media headlines and pseudointellectual internet message boards.

GIGO
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Old 12th August 2019, 09:57 AM   #83
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I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I think you would need some statistics (which I am terrible at) to determine the probability that this percent by race would occur if it was not related to race. It isn't that many events.
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Old 12th August 2019, 10:17 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
This is so not how black people think. This is so not how black people talk. This is the garbage that gets spouted when a European reads bias media headlines and pseudointellectual internet message boards.

GIGO
Thanks, Expert.

White skinned American chap sits in a basement in Spokane. Is fond of telling the world that they cannot possibly understand the USA. Only he can cuz he lives there. Chap perfectly understands how all Europeans think even tho he is not one, how all black Americans think even tho he is not one.

Never thought I would encounter a Trumpistani whose words come out more bizarre than his master's. Guess the pit is deeper than I thought.
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Old 12th August 2019, 10:28 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by casebro
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
............. Not all, but most, and well over 70% of these types of spree shootings are perpetrated by white males.

This is the uncomfortable truth that many white males (especially those holding racial animus towards people of colour) don't want to acknowledge or talk about.
Did you go back 50 years for that tally? Hmm., 70% whites seems pretty close to the actual demographic isn't it?
....
I found a small flaw in your math.
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Old 12th August 2019, 10:40 AM   #86
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Not really. Women of any race generally don't engage in mass shootings, so the gender is irrelevant in all races.
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Old 12th August 2019, 10:54 AM   #87
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White non-Hispanic males make up about 30% of the US population, 65% of elected office holders, apparently 70-90% of school shooters, 93% of Fortune 500 CEOs. Maybe Steve Sailer can do a study on whether white males have more narcissism and less empathy.
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Old 12th August 2019, 12:31 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
White non-Hispanic males make up about 30% of the US population, 65% of elected office holders, apparently 70-90% of school shooters, 93% of Fortune 500 CEOs. Maybe Steve Sailer can do a study on whether white males have more narcissism and less empathy.
So the closest match s "elected office holders" ? Who does those graphs of spurious relationships?
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Old 12th August 2019, 12:34 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Or are you ignoring all that inner city gun violence which isn't exactly Caucasian, because its usually Black on Black violence? Picking your stats selectively are we? No agenda here at all. Gun violence is just that, Gun. Violence.
Except it's not just gun violence in America. Where more people get killed with blunt objects than with "assault weapons".

Ban blunt objects !!!
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Old 12th August 2019, 12:55 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
"Every weekend in Chicago" is probably more about the underlying crime than about disaffected people with motives based on revenge for some perceived slight, or racial politics.

I think the OP misses a point about school shootings is that they are part of a wider problem... they are simply spree killings in schools. Even if you widen the criteria to include spree killings such as El Paso TX, Dayton OH, Charleston SC, Las Vegas NV, Sutherland Springs TX, Killeen TX, Orlando FL, San Ysidro CA, San Bernardino CA, then you are looking at a more relevant picture. Not all, but most, and well over 70% of these types of spree shootings are perpetrated by white males.

This is the uncomfortable truth that many white males (especially those holding racial animus towards people of colour) don't want to acknowledge or talk about.
Minor quibble, most murders in chicago are probably gang related, which suggests disaffected youth and revenge for perceived slight are probably contributing factors.

As others have noted. 70%, if the shooters are almost entirely male is not that out of line with US demographics, especially if you consider that hispanic whites are also white. Minor note of demographic interest, apparently the more generations an hispanic person's family has been in the US, the more likely they are to check white on the forms.

Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The average crew on the street - the ones that sell drugs on the street, hit on underaged girls, and so on? For the third time, not even a handgun for every member - and the ones they have are either stolen, or bought from a few unscrupulous gun stores at significant markup. The very few crews that actually get their hands on that kind of firepower are very high-level, and tend to get into major drug smuggling and distribution, gun running, police bribery, etc. And they don't let in the kind of guy that'll grab an AR-15 and light up a random place - that's just unwanted attention.
I'd be curious how you know so much about gang activity. Regardless, you are almost certainly correct, the gangs business would be adversely impacted if they that a few mass shootings with flashy assaults rifles. I suspect the leadership discourages such weapons. The other reason they like small caliber hand guns, its hard to carry an AR-15 around discretely. You can't exactly just keep one in your pocket.

As to the question in the op, it's certainly my impression that most of the mass shootings in public places are done by white men. When we consider the school stabbings in China, there may be something to the hypothesis that thinking you are suppose to be in the dominant social group but still finding yourself marginalized may be a significant contributing factor.

Last edited by ahhell; 12th August 2019 at 12:58 PM.
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Old 12th August 2019, 02:17 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
As others have noted. 70%, if the shooters are almost entirely male is not that out of line with US demographics, especially if you consider that hispanic whites are also white. Minor note of demographic interest, apparently the more generations an hispanic person's family has been in the US, the more likely they are to check white on the forms.
True, and often casually overlooked.

On a side note white supremacists seem to be overly selective about who they include in their circle, which is funny since they tend to group significantly different people from elsewhere together, though there are white supremacists in some Latin American countries, and lets not get started on Turkey and Syria.
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Old 12th August 2019, 03:01 PM   #92
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Actual genetics of Mexicans/South/Central Americans can vary from 80:20 Spanish/ First Immigrant, to 20:80. So if a Navajo is considered 'not White', Mexicans are too. Mexicans are the biggest group of Hispanics in America, and even Puerto Ricans are probably less Spanish, what with Blacks intermixed. So, American Hispanics are NOT White.

The original use for Hispanic was somebody from Hispaniola. I think Carribe is the current name for those First Immigrants.
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Last edited by casebro; 12th August 2019 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 12th August 2019, 04:06 PM   #93
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Interestingly, I just saw a little comic today on the definitions of, and difference between, Hispanic and Latino. https://www.vox.com/2015/8/19/917345...c-latino-comic

This confirms what I'd thought was correct from seeing people's usage, and explains it much more clearly.
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Old 12th August 2019, 05:32 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Thanks, Expert.

White skinned American chap sits in a basement in Spokane. Is fond of telling the world that they cannot possibly understand the USA. Only he can cuz he lives there. Chap perfectly understands how all Europeans think even tho he is not one, how all black Americans think even tho he is not one.

Never thought I would encounter a Trumpistani whose words come out more bizarre than his master's. Guess the pit is deeper than I thought.
Trump has nothing to do with any of this.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

Last edited by zooterkin; 14th August 2019 at 01:49 AM.
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Old 12th August 2019, 06:23 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Trump has nothing to do with any of this.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
“childless Europeans”
“This is so not how black people think”
“hallucinations”
“Stupid”
“Stupid”
“Stupid”

Just trying to find a level of communication that you can relate to. You responded so I must be nearly there.
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Last edited by zooterkin; 14th August 2019 at 01:49 AM.
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Old 12th August 2019, 08:59 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
So the closest match s "elected office holders" ? Who does those graphs of spurious relationships?

Well done. I'm impressed.

That is a non sequitur of a scale rare even for you.
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Old 12th August 2019, 09:03 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
True, and often casually overlooked.

On a side note white supremacists seem to be overly selective about who they include in their circle, which is funny since they tend to group significantly different people from elsewhere together, though there are white supremacists in some Latin American countries, and lets not get started on Turkey and Syria.

True, and it brings up an interesting conundrum which I have pointed out before.

They continually define more and more groups as being 'other', while at they same time whining about how they are becoming a smaller and smaller segment of the population.

Birthrates are irrelevant. They are defining themselves into obscurity.
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Old 12th August 2019, 09:10 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Actual genetics of Mexicans/South/Central Americans can vary from 80:20 Spanish/ First Immigrant, to 20:80. So if a Navajo is considered 'not White', Mexicans are too. Mexicans are the biggest group of Hispanics in America, and even Puerto Ricans are probably less Spanish, what with Blacks intermixed. So, American Hispanics are NOT White.

"Hispanic" is a reference to the language of a culture. Specifically ... Spanish. Even the Romans used similar root words that way.

Quote:

The original use for Hispanic was somebody from Hispaniola. I think Carribe is the current name for those First Immigrants.

Please provide your source for this claim. I can't seem to find it supported anywhere.
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Old 12th August 2019, 09:26 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Your response is the response that would be expected from somebody who had missed the two words I highlighted. 70% would have been about the same as the general population, but the shooters being described were "well over" that.

LOL what does "well over" mean? 71? 73? 70.2? This used to be a skeptic site where numbers and evidence actually mattered.

"Well over" haha. I actually laughed out loud reading this.

This discussion is so stupid. "Percentages!" "how white was he?" Jebus H f'n Kripes.
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Old 12th August 2019, 10:54 PM   #100
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The OP's "90 percent of school shooters are white boys" is, again, even if true, not very helpful because what is the point of limiting the discussion to school? The kids yeah okay kids get killed in these other rampage attacks as well, including children too young to even attend school. Rampage killers tend to have some connection to the place they attack. So would "well over" 70 percent of school shooters, say 79, 80, 82 being white males even be statistically significant in that limited study?

How about include bombings, arson, mass stabbings, suicide pilots, workplace shootings, attacks in public areas. Do whites commit well over 70 percent now? I wouldn't be surprised if it was as high as 80 percent. I wouldn't look at the problem as an ethnicity thing.
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Old 13th August 2019, 06:21 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Actual genetics of Mexicans/South/Central Americans can vary from 80:20 Spanish/ First Immigrant, to 20:80. So if a Navajo is considered 'not White', Mexicans are too. Mexicans are the biggest group of Hispanics in America, and even Puerto Ricans are probably less Spanish, what with Blacks intermixed. So, American Hispanics are NOT White.
If you were king, who would be in charge of determining who is "white" and where would the cutoff be?

Originally Posted by casebro View Post
The original use for Hispanic was somebody from Hispaniola. I think Carribe is the current name for those First Immigrants.
You're not kidding, are you? No, the root of "Hispanic" means "Spain." Spanish people. Of Spanish descent. On the actual island of Hispaniola, half of the people speak French.

Quote:
Hispanic (adj.)
"pertaining to Spain" (especially ancient Spain) 1580s, from Latin Hispanicus, from Hispania "Iberian Peninsula," from Hispanus "Spaniard" (see Spaniard). Specific application to Spanish-speaking parts of the New World is from 1889, American English; since c. 1972 especially applied to Spanish-speaking persons of Latin American descent living in the U.S. As a noun meaning "Hispanic person" from 1972.
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Old 13th August 2019, 06:40 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Entitlement.

White males feel they are entitled to whatever they want, and if they can't have it, they throw a temper tantrum.

Give them a gun, and they shoot things
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Old 13th August 2019, 07:23 AM   #103
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Must we have the "race doesn't exist as any actual natural demarcation of human beings but it does exist as artificial, and sometimes artificially imposed, social groupings?" hijack EVERY SINGLE ******* DISCUSSION ABOUT RACIAL POLITICS.

If one more goddamn racist tries to deny/defend their racism with "bUt I tHOughT U saYED RaCE doeSN'T ExiST!?"
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Old 13th August 2019, 09:06 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
First, can we stop using the word Caucasian to refer to Western European whites?

I think there could be some element of inspiration between these school shooters. The most iconic of which is probably the Columbine killers, though there were earlier, more obscure shooters like Charles Whitman and even a girl in the 1970s. But maybe lonely or jilted white guys feel a closeness by their skin color and gun culture.

But you've limited yourself to the U.S. and limited the discussion to school shootings only. If you include workplace murders, mass stabbings, bombings, arson, etc. you find the '90 percent whiteboys' statistic kinda hasty and narrow.

I think rampage mass murders in general are pretty proportional to the population, even if white guys are overrepresented in school shootings in particular. There is a lot we don't hear about in the national news, just because it isn't a high profile shooting or take place somewhere iconic.
It does seem to me that Columbine was the inspiration for every suicidal loser to decide that he should take a bunch either people they thought done them wrong or else random strangers, or some mixture of both, with them as they went out in a blaze of glory. I know a lot was made in the news media about how badly the Columbine shooters were persecuted in their school, which I think may have a lot to do with it.

Certainly Columbine was not the first instance of such a mass shooting. Remember the expression "going postal"? This was the result of more than a few mass shootings at their workplace conducted by postal employees or ex postal employees, most of whom had been or were about to be fired.

I have no idea why it's almost entirely white people that buy into this idea.

My though on the Columbine shooters, not necessarily relevant, was always, they were seniors, and almost done with high school. Why the hell didn't they just put it all behind them and get on with their lives?

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Old 13th August 2019, 09:10 AM   #105
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Because the mythology built up that the Columbine shooters were "picked on outcasts" is 100%, farm grade, bullshingles.
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Old 13th August 2019, 09:24 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Actual genetics of Mexicans/South/Central Americans can vary from 80:20 Spanish/ First Immigrant, to 20:80. So if a Navajo is considered 'not White', Mexicans are too. Mexicans are the biggest group of Hispanics in America, and even Puerto Ricans are probably less Spanish, what with Blacks intermixed. So, American Hispanics are NOT White.

The original use for Hispanic was somebody from Hispaniola. I think Carribe is the current name for those First Immigrants.
Not sure about first usage, but Hispanic generally means someone who speaks Spanish or is descended from those who do. It's from the Latin for Spain, as is the name of the island of Hispaniola. Also, Hatians, who are from the island of Hispaniola are not considered Hispanic, because they are mostly French speakers of African (or mixed) ancestry.

You are on the money about the racial makeup of "Hispanic" people. Most (not all) of them are some mix of white, Native American and African ancestry. It stems from the way the indgenous people were treated by the colonizing powers. The British, and later Americans, largely regarded indigenous people as a nuisance, to be killed off or forced to move. The Spanish regarded them as a resource to be exploited, converted to Catholicism, and were not at all shy about breeding with them. Society in Latin America tends to be racially stratified. As a general rule, the people in the upper socio-economic strata tend to be pure or nearly pure white, or at least look like it, and the more Native American or African in ones ancestry, the lower they are onthe socio-economic ladder.
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Old 13th August 2019, 09:27 AM   #107
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The perpetrator's perception matters more than facts when it comes to motive.
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Old 13th August 2019, 09:41 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because the mythology built up that the Columbine shooters were "picked on outcasts" is 100%, farm grade, bullshingles.
Eh, not entirely. That claim mostly (AFAIK) comes from Cullen's book on the shooting, and, IMO, it's mostly a misinterpretation of the points Cullen was actually making. The general culture of Columbine at the time was extremely toxic and hierarchical. Almost everyone was bullied to a certain extent, and that included the shooters. That being said, the killers weren't complete social outcasts they had a small social group, jobs, and Harris even dated a few girls. Cullen was making the point that the media portraying them as loner outcasts that were relentlessly bullied was wrong, but their social standing in high school still played a part in motivating them. He was just pointing out that they weren't bullied particularly more than anyone else in the school (in fact, they even bullied some kids lower in rank than them), and that they actually had somewhat active social lives. But in their journals and videos, they spent a lot of time detailing their grievances with various people and groups in the school, and how they were going to make everyone pay. What I took from Cullen's conclusions was the Columbine was a powder keg, and that made it a very easy target for two angry, desperate people to direct their anger towards.

Of course, it's also worth mentioning that the Columbine shooting wasn't originally intended to be a shooting. Their original plan was for a bombing attack inspired by Oklahoma city, and it only became primarily a shooting when their bombs failed. Their primary motivation wasn't really getting revenge or killing jocks, it was just getting a higher body count than McVeigh.

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Old 13th August 2019, 09:54 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
The perpetrator's perception matters more than facts when it comes to motive.
This.

It's easy to dismiss with things like "easiest difficulty setting," which may be objectively true in terms of overall population. But individuals perceive things subjectively based on their own experiences or the narratives they encounter that resonate with them.

Each individual's perception is based on a limited subset of facts. The fact that those conclusions are incorrect is irrelevant when discussing possible motives.
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Old 13th August 2019, 10:18 AM   #110
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Q. Why are whites so overrepresented with re. to school shootings and spree killings?

A. Depends. How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
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Old 13th August 2019, 10:25 AM   #111
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Very good reference:
FBI study of active shooter incidents in the US between 2000 & 2013. Phase II: Why did they attack.
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Old 13th August 2019, 10:29 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
Thanks for the link.
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Old 13th August 2019, 12:51 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
This is a good point. I do agree that hatred toward women seems to be a commonality. Is it only toward females? Is it a hatred of mother figures or romantic figures?
My best guess - easy target for violence. Unlike getting into a fistfight in a bar, the woman (or possibly children, but we tend not to hear about that much) are tied up with the man both financially and emotionally, and is likely to be smaller than the guy as well. Thus, she's less likely to fight back, call police, have a bouncer intervene, and the like.
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Old 13th August 2019, 01:20 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
This is a good point. I do agree that hatred toward women seems to be a commonality. Is it only toward females? Is it a hatred of mother figures or romantic figures?
Some article in psychology.com suggested it's the helplessness these men feel when they believe they have been excluded from the sexual market, whether directly or indirectly (losing money, power, status).

Can't be bothered to sift through the various articles on it, but take it for what its worth.
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Old 13th August 2019, 02:03 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
That Ben Folds guy has a lot to answer for.

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Old 13th August 2019, 02:22 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Trump has nothing to do with any of this.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
Pot, meet kettle!
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Old 13th August 2019, 02:25 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
This is a good point. I do agree that hatred toward women seems to be a commonality. Is it only toward females? Is it a hatred of mother figures or romantic figures?

Here's one on-topic article - I have heard this in many places, how "gamer-gate" took some right-adjacent types and moved them into the far right via anti-feminism. The messy set of influences they find starts blending anti-feminist stuff with racial minorities and how they are 'replacing' the white people.

How Anti-feminism is the Gateway to the Far Right



Originally Posted by The Atlantic
Most mass shooters are men. Sophie Walker, the former leader of Britain’s Women’s Equality Party, tweeted that fact soon after 51 people were killed by a gunman in Christchurch, New Zealand. (A Mother Jones database of all U.S. killing sprees since 1982 records four female killers and 111 male ones.) In response, she was deluged with angry emails and accused of “playing the gender card.” A BBC journalist told her, “Not sure now is the right time to make this about gender Sophie.”

Only, she did not “make this about gender.” The shooters themselves did that.

...

The 28-year-old man awaiting trial over the Christchurch massacre wrote a self-justifying screed titled “The Great Replacement.” It begins: “It’s the birthrates. It’s the birthrates. It’s the birthrates.” The 21-year-old American who allegedly killed 22 people in El Paso, Texas, left behind a four-page document outlining his motivations. Its most consistent theme is the danger of Hispanic “invaders who also have close to the highest birthrate of all ethnicities in America.” The alleged shooter adds: “My motives for this attack are not at all personal. Actually the Hispanic community was not my target before I read The Great Replacement.”

...

As young men are drawn deeper into these online communities, the anti-feminist message transforms into one with racial overtones, Mattheis said. “Once you engage with the idea that a social-justice-warrior club and the feminist movement have increased the precarity of men,” she said, “that moves over time into the increased precarity and endangerment of ‘the West.’”

...


Anti-feminism and the far right overlap because both weave narratives around real, observable phenomena surrounding race and reproduction. Birth rates are indeed falling across the developed world. Women who reach higher education levels tend to have fewer children. The “family wage”—where a man earns enough to support a wife and children—has disappeared. Working women have greater economic freedom, instead of being dependent on men. Many of them find it easier (though still not easy) to leave abusive or otherwise intolerable relationships. Women who can control their fertility and their bank accounts do not have to be subservient to men.

...

Last edited by carlitos; 13th August 2019 at 02:31 PM. Reason: fixed quote tags etc.
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Old 13th August 2019, 06:15 PM   #118
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Quote:
Anti-feminism and the far right overlap because both weave narratives around real, observable phenomena surrounding race and reproduction. Birth rates are indeed falling across the developed world. Women who reach higher education levels tend to have fewer children. The “family wage”—where a man earns enough to support a wife and children—has disappeared. Working women have greater economic freedom, instead of being dependent on men. Many of them find it easier (though still not easy) to leave abusive or otherwise intolerable relationships. Women who can control their fertility and their bank accounts do not have to be subservient to men.
I understand the reasoning. Are there ways to address these issues such that those who are contemplating acting out in violent ways will see another path to take?
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Old 13th August 2019, 06:41 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I understand the reasoning. Are there ways to address these issues such that those who are contemplating acting out in violent ways will see another path to take?
Assuming that disrupting the communication of purveyors of this anti-feminist, white-identity works, they're again just a small subset of mass killers.

You won't stop white men or any other men from acting out in a narcissistic rage.

Unlearn the gun culture. That's the best bet for the U.S. imo.
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Old 13th August 2019, 07:26 PM   #120
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Unlearn the gun culture. That's the best bet for the U.S. imo.
I think the good denisons of Hong Kong would say very differently right now.

I'd say the best bet is to change our culture in ways that make young white men want to be responsible fathers. That would mean more white women willing to bear their babies, and thus raise the white birth rate.

We need to make sure men are given the education they need to get good jobs, are paid wages they can raise families on, and are able to feel like valued members of society.
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