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View Poll Results: Are you willing to work for free if the goods and services are free?
Yes 22 36.67%
No 27 45.00%
I don't know 11 18.33%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12th November 2020, 11:07 AM   #1841
Leftus
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Leftus, you've got half of it, but you haven't addressed whose pig yet. As it stands now most of us do not need to breed, feed and house our own pigs, as pig farmers do so in return for the sale of the pigs. This especially behooves those who live in urban areas, as pig farming is rather messy and requires space.
Well, I'd assume that pigs would be farted into existence because I need my sausage. I'd just call down to the pig center and get a tasty pig for free.

I would point out that I'm in Texas, and we do have a wild, feral hog problem. Getting one isn't the problem. Don't even need a license.

But, yeah, raising pigs can be messy. On my grandfathers ranch, we raised pigs, well a pig, a cow or two and a ton of sheep. All of which, I assure you, were delicious. Seen them all sent to the butcher too. Got to participate in all stages of that experience. Also had quail and helped harvest those eggs. Did some light farming. I've had meals from which 100% of what was eaten I had help grow or raise. I didn't really apricate that at the time. I do more so now, but back then? Well, I was just a punk kid.
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Old 12th November 2020, 01:25 PM   #1842
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Well, Leftus, it looks as if you're uniquely equipped to survive in Gaetan-land, where not only must you choke your own chickens but juice your own piglets.
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Old 13th November 2020, 02:21 AM   #1843
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What did i tell you? What did i tell you? Under the system of money you can't have a fair election. The previous election in United Stades was a big massive fraud, nothing less, not that i like Trump, both candidate wouldn't be a candidate for presidency under a no money system.

Last edited by Gaetan; 13th November 2020 at 02:33 AM.
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Old 13th November 2020, 08:00 AM   #1844
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
What did i tell you? What did i tell you? Under the system of money you can't have a fair election. The previous election in United Stades was a big massive fraud, nothing less, not that i like Trump, both candidate wouldn't be a candidate for presidency under a no money system.
How was it unfair?

I mean, there has never been an unfair election in every communistic or socialist country to ever exist.

If it wasn't money, it would be power. Take the fact that you aren't going to get any money out of your system, but you are taking all the power and setting yourself up as the god-king making determinations of what counts as work and down to what we are allowed to eat.
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Old 13th November 2020, 08:02 AM   #1845
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Well, Leftus, it looks as if you're uniquely equipped to survive in Gaetan-land, where not only must you choke your own chickens but juice your own piglets.
I'd get by. But I'd probably go for some sort of warlord. Lead with an iron fist. Crush my enemies. See them driven before me. And to hear the lamentations of their women.
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Old 13th November 2020, 08:47 AM   #1846
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
What did i tell you? What did i tell you? Under the system of money you can't have a fair election. The previous election in United Stades was a big massive fraud, nothing less, not that i like Trump, both candidate wouldn't be a candidate for presidency under a no money system.
Are you trying to make the no-money thing look less crazy by comparison?

Okay, I'll bite: in what way was the US election "a big massive fraud"?

Bring evidence.
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Old 14th November 2020, 11:49 AM   #1847
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Okay, I'll bite: in what way was the US election "a big massive fraud"?

Bring evidence.
Even though it will never happen, the evidence must be based on the fact that money exists. That if you removed the existence of money, people would not seek, or cheat to win a seat of power.
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Old 18th November 2020, 02:34 PM   #1848
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When you take a product you don't realize the effort made in making that product because you pay for it. In the world of no money you realize the effort done in making a product you take because the product you make yourself is free of charge and you aren't paid for it. Then in a world free of money because of that consciousness there will be less waste. Compensation by money free the obligation of realising the effort done.
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Old 18th November 2020, 02:38 PM   #1849
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
When you take a product you don't realize the effort made in making that product because you pay for it. In the world of no money you realize the effort done in making a product you take because the product you make yourself is free of charge and you aren't paid for it. Then in a world free of money because of that consciousness there will be less waste. Compensation by money free the obligation of realising the effort done.
Fundamentally wrong. If everything were free, nobody would care how much effort went into producing it. They would simply take it.
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Old 18th November 2020, 03:24 PM   #1850
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Angry

Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
When you take a product you don't realize the effort made in making that product because you pay for it. In the world of no money you realize the effort done in making a product you take because the product you make yourself is free of charge and you aren't paid for it. Then in a world free of money because of that consciousness there will be less waste. Compensation by money free the obligation of realising the effort done.
Nonsense, of course. Abaddon's comment above is one reason. If you're not paying for the effort, why worry about it? If some sucker wants to put in the effort, why not take it?

But aside from that, why would anyone want to bother to do the tedious, unrewarding, repetitive jobs that are so necessary to produce so many things? We pay people (whether fairly enough is a separate issue) to do things like screwing the top bolt of the left front shock absorber on the vehicle as it comes down the assembly line, or to punch the holes in ten thousand pot lids a day, or to stand on the freezing pavement and direct traffic, and so forth.

Of course you might just think of this and the millions of other such jobs, "so what," and be happy if they stop being done, but you would have to be quite insane to suggest that civilization would not be substantially different if they were not.

Of course, we could hark back to the days of ancient Greece and Rome, when many dirty, repetitive, boring or dangerous jobs were indeed done without money. They were done by slaves. Some among us would not welcome such a return.
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Old 19th November 2020, 06:31 AM   #1851
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Nonsense, of course. Abaddon's comment above is one reason. If you're not paying for the effort, why worry about it? If some sucker wants to put in the effort, why not take it?

But aside from that, why would anyone want to bother to do the tedious, unrewarding, repetitive jobs that are so necessary to produce so many things? We pay people (whether fairly enough is a separate issue) to do things like screwing the top bolt of the left front shock absorber on the vehicle as it comes down the assembly line, or to punch the holes in ten thousand pot lids a day, or to stand on the freezing pavement and direct traffic, and so forth.

Of course you might just think of this and the millions of other such jobs, "so what," and be happy if they stop being done, but you would have to be quite insane to suggest that civilization would not be substantially different if they were not.

Of course, we could hark back to the days of ancient Greece and Rome, when many dirty, repetitive, boring or dangerous jobs were indeed done without money. They were done by slaves. Some among us would not welcome such a return.
You still want to cut the head of chickens and the throat of pigs?
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Old 19th November 2020, 06:40 AM   #1852
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
When you take a product you don't realize the effort made in making that product because you pay for it. In the world of no money you realize the effort done in making a product you take because the product you make yourself is free of charge and you aren't paid for it. Then in a world free of money because of that consciousness there will be less waste. Compensation by money free the obligation of realising the effort done.
You have it exactly backwards. Time and time again, when people get something for free, they abuse the ever loving hell out of it. The tragedy of the commons.

There would be more waste. Are there things you've not bought because you thought the price was too high? Not that you couldn't afford it, but the price was too high? That calculation is the cost of your labor against the cost of the labor of that good. It's the consciousness you are looking for.

Again, are you demanding a used tesla for free, or a shiny new one? Were it to break, would you take it in to be repaired, or just drop it off and take another new one? Repairs take time, a new one is just sitting there after all.
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Old 19th November 2020, 06:57 AM   #1853
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You still want to cut the head of chickens and the throat of pigs?
No, but I understand it must be done if I want to eat them. So I'm willing to exchange the fruits of my labor for the labor of a butcher. Since he has no need for spreadsheets, I need some medium of exchange. Money does just that.
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Old 19th November 2020, 07:07 AM   #1854
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
You have it exactly backwards. Time and time again, when people get something for free, they abuse the ever loving hell out of it. The tragedy of the commons.

There would be more waste. Are there things you've not bought because you thought the price was too high? Not that you couldn't afford it, but the price was too high? That calculation is the cost of your labor against the cost of the labor of that good. It's the consciousness you are looking for.

Again, are you demanding a used tesla for free, or a shiny new one? Were it to break, would you take it in to be repaired, or just drop it off and take another new one? Repairs take time, a new one is just sitting there after all.
Not any more. I popprf down there the other day and there was a crowd of people fighting for the last one from which people had not already stolen the battery. I escaped with my life, which was better than the lone, crazy volunteer cop who tried to restore order.
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Old 19th November 2020, 07:50 AM   #1855
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
When you take a product you don't realize the effort made in making that product because you pay for it. In the world of no money you realize the effort done in making a product you take because the product you make yourself is free of charge and you aren't paid for it. Then in a world free of money because of that consciousness there will be less waste. Compensation by money free the obligation of realising the effort done.
Surely this is so crazy it has to be self-parody.

I'm supposed to magically infer how much energy and effort went into making something just by thinking "This took work. Hey - I work too. Work is hard. This has value".

So if I work hard making cheap crappy base metal for junk jewellery while a whole lot of other people work hard making highly refined and carefully tested high-grade alloys for jet engines, that's the same thing, right? I mean back in the bad old days when one alloy cost a hundred times more than the other, people had no way of telling which was which, but now you just take some alloy, whichever you like, and have the warm sense of appreciation that someone somewhere probably worked hard to make it. And the planes gently tumble from the skies.
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Old 19th November 2020, 09:07 AM   #1856
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
You have it exactly backwards. Time and time again, when people get something for free, they abuse the ever loving hell out of it. The tragedy of the commons.

There would be more waste. Are there things you've not bought because you thought the price was too high? Not that you couldn't afford it, but the price was too high? That calculation is the cost of your labor against the cost of the labor of that good. It's the consciousness you are looking for.

Again, are you demanding a used tesla for free, or a shiny new one? Were it to break, would you take it in to be repaired, or just drop it off and take another new one? Repairs take time, a new one is just sitting there after all.
Yes you highlight a problem how many Tesla's can you wreck each day and NOT expect to obtain another one? Who makes this decision? Who enforces this?
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:20 PM   #1857
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You still want to cut the head of chickens and the throat of pigs?
I would. I worked at a farm one Christmas plucking ducks, turkeys and chickens. One day on break I literally had to kick my way through a pile of severed duck heads. Didn't faze me in the slightest.
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Old 20th November 2020, 03:17 AM   #1858
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
I would. I worked at a farm one Christmas plucking ducks, turkeys and chickens. One day on break I literally had to kick my way through a pile of severed duck heads. Didn't faze me in the slightest.
Yes but would you commit these crimes forgiven by the judges of the supreme court named by Donald Trump if you aren't paid for that?
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Old 20th November 2020, 06:46 AM   #1859
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Yes but would you commit these crimes forgiven by the judges of the supreme court named by Donald Trump if you aren't paid for that?
1. What crimes? I committed no crime.

2. I'm not American, why should I care about the supreme court?

3. Would I kill and prepare an animal to eat it? Yes.
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Old 20th November 2020, 08:18 AM   #1860
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Yes but would you commit these crimes forgiven by the judges of the supreme court named by Donald Trump if you aren't paid for that?
Well this is just getting goofy. I feel like I've fallen into the Victorian era trap of going to Bedlam to view the crazies.

I'll withdraw - you all have a good time playing with our good friend here.

Avoir la tête à l'envers.
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Old 20th November 2020, 02:52 PM   #1861
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I haven't been paying so much attention to politics recently, so I might have missed the headline about the Supreme Court forgiving the slaughter of chickens. Children I'd believe. Maybe you misread.
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Old 20th November 2020, 02:58 PM   #1862
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Yes but would you commit these crimes forgiven by the judges of the supreme court named by Donald Trump if you aren't paid for that?
Pay attention Gaetan. Trump and his supreme court mean nothing to me. I am not an american, don't live in america, don't work for any american companies.

What is it with your obsession with america? Do you really think that america is the entire world?


ETA: Hint, America is less than 5% of the world, did you not know that? Apparently not.
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Old 20th November 2020, 04:18 PM   #1863
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Again though, he thinks the CIA dictates where planes will fly to every nation on earth.
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Old 21st November 2020, 11:05 PM   #1864
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Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0.

To solve the problem of inequalities some people would say, let's take the money from rich and give it to poor. What's the use to play a game of money going no where? How stupid we are, simply abolish money would do the samething.

Last edited by zooterkin; 22nd November 2020 at 04:11 AM.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 06:50 AM   #1865
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0.

To solve the problem of inequalities some people would say, let's take the money from rich and give it to poor. What's the use to play a game of money going no where? How stupid we are, simply abolish money would do the samething.
As already demonstrated to you, simply abolishing money does practically nothing "To solve the problem of inequalities". Rich people will still tend to own more and as a result still be able to exert more control and influence. Rich people, countries and societies aren't just rich in money alone.

Heck, just yourself, your own stated financial difficulties and your desire to get rid of money itself all apparently stem from your desire to just own more stuff.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 01:16 PM   #1866
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0.

To solve the problem of inequalities some people would say, let's take the money from rich and give it to poor. What's the use to play a game of money going no where? How stupid we are, simply abolish money would do the samething.
Could you maybe respond to things people have asked or told you rather than simply restating your claim with an unnecessary insult attached?
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Old 22nd November 2020, 01:42 PM   #1867
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
As already demonstrated to you, simply abolishing money does practically nothing "To solve the problem of inequalities". Rich people will still tend to own more and as a result still be able to exert more control and influence. Rich people, countries and societies aren't just rich in money alone.

Heck, just yourself, your own stated financial difficulties and your desire to get rid of money itself all apparently stem from your desire to just own more stuff.
Interesting that. Gaetan want's a no money system so that HE can get free stuff. He has flat out stated that
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Old 23rd November 2020, 04:02 PM   #1868
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
As already demonstrated to you, simply abolishing money does practically nothing "To solve the problem of inequalities". Rich people will still tend to own more and as a result still be able to exert more control and influence. Rich people, countries and societies aren't just rich in money alone.

Heck, just yourself, your own stated financial difficulties and your desire to get rid of money itself all apparently stem from your desire to just own more stuff.
When we'll abolish money there will be no rich, if there is we'll fix that.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 04:05 PM   #1869
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
When we'll abolish money there will be no rich, if there is we'll fix that.
How exactly will you "fix" that?
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Old 23rd November 2020, 04:39 PM   #1870
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
How exactly will you "fix" that?
Suppose a guy is rich in ketchup, we'll take that ketchup and throw it in the garbage because it is no good to be given to eat.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 04:51 PM   #1871
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Suppose a guy is rich in ketchup, we'll take that ketchup and throw it in the garbage because it is no good to be given to eat.
So violent theft and destruction of property is your preferred solution?
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Old 23rd November 2020, 07:08 PM   #1872
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
So violent theft and destruction of property is your preferred solution?
If the majority choose to get rid of money it is not to replace it by barter.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 07:09 PM   #1873
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Not only violent theft and destruction, but enforcement of personal quirks and dietary silliness on the rest of the world.

Of course what the rich will be rich in will be other than ketchup anyway. It will be in more abstract kinds of power that simple stupidity won't overcome.

I kind of like ketchup too. I would not consider it, as the Reagan administration once did, as a vegetable course in school lunches, but it is, or can be, a decently nutritious and harmless condiment, since its main ingredients are tomato sauce, a little spice, and vinegar. Adds a little zing to black beans and rice.

I am a bit off put by Gaetan's use of "we" too.
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Old 24th November 2020, 06:29 AM   #1874
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Suppose a guy is rich in ketchup, we'll take that ketchup and throw it in the garbage because it is no good to be given to eat.
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
If the majority choose to get rid of money it is not to replace it by barter.
So now you've reversed you position that at least some bartering will happen in your no money world.

As well as going completely against your previous position that ownership will not change in going to your no money world.

What if "the majority" just like ketchup?

You continually fail to grasp any perspective other than simply your own.
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Old 24th November 2020, 07:37 AM   #1875
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All property is theft.
Meat is murder.
Ketchup is evil.

If nothing else, it might make a line in tee shirts. To be given away for free, naturally.
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Old 24th November 2020, 09:03 AM   #1876
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
If the majority choose to get rid of money it is not to replace it by barter.
What if the majority decided to get rid of electric cars?
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Old 24th November 2020, 09:05 AM   #1877
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Yes you highlight a problem how many Tesla's can you wreck each day and NOT expect to obtain another one? Who makes this decision? Who enforces this?
To the last two, absolutely nobody. He has said as much. Nobody is tracking anything, but your nosey neighbors will, somehow, know how much and how hard you work to shame you into something, somehow.

Unlimited Teslas for everyone! Don't bother recharging, drain it to zero, go get a fresh one.
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Old 24th November 2020, 10:22 AM   #1878
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
To the last two, absolutely nobody. He has said as much. Nobody is tracking anything, but your nosey neighbors will, somehow, know how much and how hard you work to shame you into something, somehow.

Unlimited Teslas for everyone! Don't bother recharging, drain it to zero, go get a fresh one.
And of course some clever person will find abandoned Teslas on the road, tow them home and recharge them in his backyard, becoming rich in Teslas, whereupon, in Gaetan-land, he will be condemned and his expenditure of work and enterprise either confiscated or destroyed.
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Old Yesterday, 02:24 PM   #1879
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
And of course some clever person will find abandoned Teslas on the road, tow them home and recharge them in his backyard, becoming rich in Teslas, whereupon, in Gaetan-land, he will be condemned and his expenditure of work and enterprise either confiscated or destroyed.
Of course, someone with more stuff than someone else? How very dare they! Shame!
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Old Yesterday, 08:44 PM   #1880
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I think you are not one of the millions of Americans who hunt for food. Remember in a world of no money necessities are free and more.

Last edited by Gaetan; Yesterday at 08:45 PM.
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